How do I decide on a LED device?
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free skin care · Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:24 am

I hope this new thread will give everyone a place to state their thoughts on the several LED devices discussed on EDS. LED is a hot topic. Unfortunately posts are being placed in the wrong threads. For instance the Quasar thread started going off topic to ProLight.

Here is a thread you can chat away ladies/gents. HTH's

free skin care · Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:31 am

I am moving a couple of things over from other threads:

mpstat wrote:

What to Look for in LED Devices

Power Output
This is one of the most important factors.
Ask for output per square centimeter per second ( number of joules per cm2 per second).
Many companies give power output per entire device instead of unit of measure. Also they give power output per recommended treatment duration, not per unit of time. To compare apples to apples we need to speak in the same terms.
Note: The device should aim to deliver 4 - 9 joules per cm2 per treatment time. (Treatment time might vary, e.g. 30 seconds, 60 sec, 3 miute, etc. )

Power Output Range
Watch for red flags such as not realistic LED power output. Some companies provide unrealistic numbers that are more suitable for lasers, not LEDs.

730nm Range
Most LEDs devices operate in 600nm and 800nm. NASA studies included 730nm rage. Look for devices that include 730nm LEDs.

Specifications Availability
Look for the manufacturers that readily post the devices technical specifications on their web sites. Those that do not do it might have reasons not to share the specs.

Number of LEDs
Number of LEDs is not as important as the power output, since the LEDs themselves vary from one another. Do not pay that much attention to the number of LEDs.

Treatment Time
Longer treatment time per area indicates a less powerful device. Look for a short treatment time duration per treatment area.

Distance from the Skin
The closer device to the skin, the better.

Country of Origin
USA made devices preferred to China made devices.

Visual Luminosity
A simple way to determine if the device performance is really way off is to look at it. The LEDs when turned on should be luminous, if you can look at the LEDs without much disturbance to the eyes, chances are the device is not a top performer.

Red/Infrared
Red/Infrared LEDs have deeper tissue penetration, and good for collagen/elastin production, and tissue healing. Do not expect red/infrared devices to do much to skin pigmentation.

Amber
Amber LEDs have shallow skin penetration, and good for skin pigmentation treatments, such as sun damage. Do not expect amber devices to do much for collagen/elastin production, and tissue healing.

Mixed Red/Infrared/Amber Devices
Professional oriented devices usually are limited to one type of the LEDs, either red/infrared or amber. Consumer oriented devices tend to have mixed lights. The type of a device is really a preference. Those who are need more performance from a device might be better off with separate LEDs, while those looking for more convinience, and not wanting to joggle between two different types of the devices might be satisfied with mixed LEDs devices.

Skin Preparation
Although some advise on applying lotions prior to LED treatments, professionals normally do not do it. Usually in spas treatments are done on clean skin to get the most benefits from the LEDs. Apply LEDs to clean skin.

FDA Approval
FDA approval does not guarantee LED devices effectiveness. Do not sweat over FDA approval.

If anyone wants to add anything to the summary, please feel free to do so.

free skin care · Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:06 am

Winnie wrote:

Quote:

With all the recent chatter on the forum about amber lights, I may also invest in something with amber lights in the future. I'm going to wait and see how that subject develops.

The SP does have amber light as well as the Baby. I recently confirmed this with AT as I was also intrigued with all the anti-aging chatter of amber.

Winnie, apparently the amber wavelength is not quite amber enough....it is amber-ish, but not true amber. I will let MACrisis respond to that further.

free skin care · Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:11 am

Here are links to the DRAFTS of the comparison charts of the various LED units. I had to break them down into 2 pieces to get them to display, and I am also going to post a 2nd link for each pic in case you can see that one better.

Please note that there is some missing/unvalidated information, and I am happy to revise it if someone can just tell me what needs to be changed.

Please keep in mind that I have no connection or alliance to ANY seller or manufacturer of any of these products. My only interest is in making it easier for people to choose based on what is important to THEM. For some it may be power, for others it may be length of trial period, etc. YOU pick what is important to YOU.

http://inlinethumb11.webshots.com/39690/2738121910033880849S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb51.webshots.com/12402/2498498730033880849S600x600Q85.jpg

free skin care · Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:19 am

Kassy_A wrote:

MACrisis wrote:

I found the following info in Dermawave vs Quasar thread, posted by James:
Quasar SP & Baby Quasar
12 Red & 12 Infrared
Red (632 & 660) Infrared (880 & 950)
Technically 632 is amber(ish)

I believe 590nm is Amber, Amber not Amber(ish).

Quite right about the amber, 590 through 610 actually. Anti-Aging LightStim has 600 I believe.

I wrote to Quasar Light Thereapy regarding amber lights in the 'BQ', and received the following reply from Alex;

{Amber light has been available with the Baby Quasar since its launch. If
you look carefully, you'll see there are two different types shades of red.
One amber and one red.}

Alex
Quasar Light Therapy www.babyquasar.com
1-610-650-8899

I can tell you one thing for sure though, there is absolutely no mistaking the 'amber' light. The 3 different light colors are quite apparent in my AALS, (invisible, amber + red,) I actually had to look at it from a few feet away, and it still bothered my eyes. (I would equate it to back in the day when the camera flash was on, and you saw spots before your eyes for a while afterwards.) I also have the Original, which is quite clearly red + infrared. Although the original is extremely bright, it's not at all as bright as the AALS..

I also wrote to Joni + Steve, the owners of LS, for permission to post their specs regarding wavelengths. The reason many times companies choose not to advertise certain things, is so the competition doesn't get the advantage of knowing where to start, without having done the work.

If you use the contact info at; http://www.lightstim.com they will be glad to talk to you about specs privately. I had no problem in that regard!

HTH

free skin care · Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:32 am

bethany wrote:

Has anyone been following the home unit to be jointly developed with the maker of Gentlewaves and Loreal?

I am wondering how this will change the LED landscape from a competition standpoint. This is probably an area where we will see manufacturers leapfrogging each other with new developments, and we could end up buying a more advanced unit every couple of years.

Quote:

Clichy, Wednesday December 12th 2007

L’Oréal, the world’s largest beauty company, and Light BioScience, LLC, of Virginia Beach, Virginia, leader in the medical research of LED (Light Emitting Diodes) Photomodulation® have signed a scientific collaboration agreement for the development of skincare devices using Light BioScience’s
proprietary skin rejuvenation technology. The agreement also provides for future worldwide marketing by L’Oréal of professional devices already developed by Light BioScience to reduce the visible signs of aging.

Light BioScience produces the GentleWaves® LED Photomodulation® medical device, used by
physicians and medical spas around the world to reduce wrinkles and improve skin. LED
Photomodulation® is a non-invasive technology which stimulates the skin using low intensity LEDs. This gentle method of skin rejuvenation with light has been shown to be safe and effective and the technology is protected by numerous patents.

Jean-François Grollier, L’Oreal’s Executive Vice-President Research and Development, said: "We have decided to pool our in-depth knowledge of skin and Light BioScience’s unique expertise in Photomodulation® to offer consumers a new and complementary approach to skincare." With this aim in mind, L’Oréal has just created a Development Unit for instrumental cosmetics inside its Research and Development Division.

Rick Krupnick, Chief Executive Officer of Light BioScience, and David H. McDaniel MD, the physician who developed the scientific theory behind Photomodulation® added, "We are very excited about this agreement: we can take advantage of the support of the world's leading cosmetics research force to jointly develop some new and highly promising applications in skin devices."

bethany wrote:

Interestingly, the Gentlewaves unit uses yellow LEDS. The very last line in the 2nd quotes looks like they have patented this, so I guess this explains why we don't see yellow in any of the other offerings...maybe amber is as close as competitors can get?

Any why haven't other sellers patented other wavelengths?

Quote:

"Many competing LED devices for treating wrinkles and photoaging use red LED rather than the yellow LED of GentleWaves. We’ve tested both colors and found yellow light to be superior for collagen stimulation and wrinkle reduction.” http://www.mededge-inc.com/Select020106A.pdf

Quote:

1. Why do most other LED products offer Red and Blue LED systems and GentleWaves uses 590nm Yellow?

Red: This is the original LED technology where NASA scientists did studies and documented that Red LEDs can aid in wound healing. Red LED light over time can stimulate some changes in the skin. It is documented that Red LED light can stimulate vasodilatation in the skin which promotes blood circulation and increases the Oxygen levels in the skin. This increase in blood circulation can, at times, help promote a very small amount of new collagen production but primarily help oxygenate the skin.
“The level of new collagen production from Red LEDs is minimal and would never be enough to prove or show benefits in wrinkle reduction!!!”
Almost all Red LEDs if FDA Cleared are Cleared for Wound Healing or Pain Management, not for the treatment of Wrinkles or Collagen Stimulation like GentleWaves
At GentleWaves, we set out to directly stimulate collagen producing fibroblast cells, not to just help oxygenate the skin. All of our lab test with Red LEDs did not result with direct fibroblast activity and most displayed negative effects on collagen production.

Blue: It is documented that Blue light in the 412nm range can help in the destruction of
P.acne bacteria. The ClearLight system from Lumenis was the first Blue light system to be FDA cleared for the treatment of Acne.
Using Blue Light alone to treat acne is not a cure and most Dermatologists have stopped offering Blue light alone to treat Acne. The Blue light protocol is sitting in front of these Blue lights for approx 20 minutes per treatment and the patient needs about 15 to 20 treatments at 2 or 3 per week for many weeks.
Blue light is for mild to moderate Acne only and will only offer short term results even after weeks of treatments. Most physicians are now using a topical drug (Levulan) along with light stimulation (PDT or PhotoDynamic Therapy)) for a much better result on treating Acne.
Blue Light alone is a very week treatment for Acne with many treatment necessary with short term and minimal results

1. Intellectual Property
At Light BioScience, we currently own several key patents on using our proprietary Pulsing Yellow LED light for the stimulation of Skin cells. Our science and technology is unique and we will defend our patents and intellectual property worldwide.

2. LED Photomodulation:
We did not settle with old science using Red LEDs that were developed for wound healing. Dr David McDaniel wanted more than just nourishing the skin with added Oxygen production. Our science is about using light to stimulate cellular activity not just to warm the skin for a short term benefit as with Red LEDs. Our LED Photomodulation science is about the direct stimulation of fibroblast activity to produce new and measurable amounts of Collagen to promote wrinkle reduction and better skin appearance.

3. Pulsing Technology:
Our science to promote cellular activity is much more than just 590nm Yellow LEDs! There are many key elements to how LED Photomodulation triggers a response in the Fibroblast cells. The proprietary pulsing sequence is a very important component of how GentleWaves works. This is not a random pulsing, as is now being used by many unscientific LED manufacturers! Our pulsing algorithms are well documented and several Peer Review published articles are in circulation that discusses this exciting breakthrough science.

Bottom Line:
Light BioScience owns the technology of using low level light to stimulate cellular activity.
All other LED manufacturers are just copying Old Science and do not have the resources, lab facilities or scientific knowledge to produce their own new technology.
www.trangomedicals.nl/studies/98/LED%20Comparison%20Final.doc

free skin care · Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:31 am

Maybe, as James said, "Technically 632 is amber(ish)" But from my eyes (I know they're not as good as when I was in my 20's), when I turn on Prolight Platinum with 590nm, it is AMBER and Quasar is RED. I have a custom made 632nm LED machine, It's very bright, but when you see it you'll say it's RED not amber. And 632nm - 590nm = 42nm. That made a big difference in wavelength.

free skin care · Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:02 pm

FYI...we should have some additional data coming over the next couple of days from multiple sources. I will be traveling for work Tues/Wed, but will update the document as time permits.

Each time the document is updated, the old links will go blank and new links will be uploaded.

But feel free to chat away in the meantime! Very Happy

free skin care · Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:25 pm

Winnie wrote:

bethany, great chart!!!! Please make a change. The Baby Quasar has a five year warranty.

Winnie, it looks like there are multiple sources of info on that.

Example: This link says 1 year: http://www.makemeheal.com/mmh/product.do?id=34835&procid=50&catid=1245

However, I was just able to find it here:
http://www.babyquasar.com/warranty.php

free skin care · Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:30 pm

Yubs wrote:

It is possible to overdo it with the SP, however, and if you do you know it. Your skin gets a bit of the "uglies" in the same way that CP's can provoke the uglies...tired looking, maybe a bit droopy. But if you back off and don't treat for a little while, everything tightens up and brightens up and looks better than before. Could be that this "stressing" of the skin and then backing off is how progress is made with photorejuv/Quasar family.

Yubs, how frequently were you using yours in order to get to the "overuse point"....every day? Every other day?

I am shooting to use mine every other day (or about 3x week since I will miss a day here and there), and I would rather learn from your experience right up front!

free skin care · Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:15 pm

I also have more info coming from MACrisis and Mpstat...I am going to update and post everything all at once because it is rather labor intensive to do it multiple times.

free skin care · Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:06 pm

If Anti-Aging LightStim used 600nm then it's Amber enough. Prolight used 590nm. Most LEDs has +-10nm tolerance. When Prolight Platinum is on, You can see Red, Amber. But when Quasar is on you see maybe different shades of Red (632nm, 660nm)but definitely NOT Amber

All LEDs have long life. My company sells LEDs for cars and most of time the LEDS are still good but other parts broke down first. I don't really think 10,000 hours or 100,000 hours makes any difference. Sounds like 100,000 is 10 times of 10,000. But think about this: 10,000 hours / 365 days = 27.40. It means if you used it 1 hour every day, it'll last you 27.4 years. If it's on 24/7, it'll last you 416.67 days = 1.14 year. Will you use it one hour /day for 27.40 years?? JMO

free skin care · Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:22 pm

Just an FYI...since we have lots of new info coming, I took down the old charts. I wouldn't want anyone making any kind of decision based on inaccurate/incomplete info.

free skin care · Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:11 am

Rita55 wrote:

,...when a company tells you that their light has received FDA clearance,..what that generally means and happens majority of the time-meaning 90% of the time, is that the company will submit their paperwork to the FDA and showing that their light device is "substantially equivalent" to something out there already in the market.

Companies do this all the time because if they had to show clinical studies it would cost a ton of money and takes a long time,...and companies do not want to do this. They want to get their product out to consumers as quick as possible to make money.

If a company can show that their light is "equivalent" to another light out their already in the market place that has gotten clearance, then they can get clearance on their light from the FDA. It happens all the time. FDA clearance does not mean the company had to submit studies to show that their light system works...only that its safe, and labeled properly. And quite frankly, the FDA does not ask the companies to submit studies either.

FDA approval is another whole ball game. FDA approval requires extensive studies and time and money. That is what you see with drugs coming to market.

So the questions is...is there really any new technology if every one claims to be equivalent to some other light? All this information is on the FDA website.

Majority of companies who sell LED lights get them from China. They private label it and claim to make it. That is why you can pay a few bucks and get them cheaply. Its the Walmart way of life. It becomes available to the masses. Cheap product with cheap components. And some people are happy with that. It fits their budget.

These are the things that no one EVER wants to talk about.

Rita

Rita55 wrote:

With regards to the FDA----and this is directly from their site:

Establishments involved in the production and distribution of medical devices intended for marketing or leasing (commercial distribution) in the United States (U.S.) are required to register with the FDA. This process is known as establishment registration.

Registration of an establishment is not an approval of the establishment or its products by FDA. That is, it does not provide FDA clearance to market.

Misbranding by Reference to Establishment Registration Number: Title 21 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Section 807.39, states, ...

"Registration of a device establishment or assignment of a registration number does not in any way denote approval of the establishment or its products. Any representation that creates an impression of official approval because of registration or possession of a registration number is misleading and constitutes misbranding."

Product labeling and Internet sites cannot reference your establishment registration number or make reference to your establishment being registered or approved by FDA. [i]If your product labeling or Internet sites list your establishment registration number or makes reference to your establishment being registered and approved by the FDA, then these references must be removed.

Rita

Rita55 wrote:

Subpart E--Premarket Notification Procedures
Sec. 807.97 Misbranding by reference to premarket notification.

Any representation that creates an impression of official approval of a device because of complying with the premarket notification regulations is misleading and constitutes misbranding.

FDA action on a premarket notification.

(a) After review of a premarket notification, FDA will:

(1) Issue an order declaring the device to be substantially equivalent to a legally marketed predicate device( meaning a device that is already on the market that has received clearance);

(2) Issue an order declaring the device to be not substantially equivalent to any legally marketed predicate device;

Advise the applicant that the premarket notification is not required. Until the applicant receives an order declaring a device substantially equivalent, the applicant may not proceed to market the device.

free skin care · Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:10 pm

Just in case any of you are interested:

I’m in car accessories business for 16 years and our company carries lots of LED related merchandise. I asked our R & D supervisor who invented lots of electrical items and a friend who worked for a LED importer for many years and one of their customers makes LED machines for horses. They told me nowadays most LEDs last for 100,000 hours. There’s no way you can actually burn the LEDs for that long, so they accelerate the burning by input more energy to the LEDs and change the outside environment, plus check the depletion (degrade) rate and calculate the LED life. Actually LED life is a minor part for an item design. The most important part is the circuit design. Sometimes a LED burned out was not because the LED itself but the circuit design. And most of the time other parts of an item broke before the LEDs burn out.

free skin care · Fri May 02, 2008 7:18 am

Thread Purpose
The purpose of the info on this thread is to identify what to look for in LED devices and ask appropriate questions. The information is factual info based on specifications with numbers, and clearly identified guidelines..

This can eliminate the need to use one device after another in order to make a pick. It is not realistic for a person to use ALL the devices to make a conclusion. On another extreme using just one device does not justify that it is superior to the rest. We have choices to make and take different approaches.

It gives an ability mo make educated decisions.

Chart & Guidelines
Bethany did great job on putting together LED Devices Comparison Chart. The chart provides factual information and helps to compare the devices using the specifications of the devices. The lack of information is also information. If a company for whatever reason provides not-specific info in broad terms, or does not provide it at all, this fact can be reflected on the chart.

I suggest to keep AAL on the chart while indicating information unavailability. People using the chart can make their own conclusions and come to their own decisions.

When I started comparing LED devices, I found that I was looking a company that has information readily available. And the lack of the information was a signal to me not to deal with the company. In fact as a result of the closer look at the various LED devices specifications, and characteristics (or absence of those) I decided to return Anti Aging LightStim, and selected my current devices.

Ask Why and How Questions
For some people it is sufficient to know that person A or B is satisfied with a device. For others it is important to know Why.

*** Why one device is better then another
*** What are the main characteristics of a device
*** What one should pay attention at

Asking these questions helps us to enrich the knowledge, and progress. Not everyone wants and has a need to find answers to this questions, but some people do.

Technical Aspects
Technical information of the devices is important. The analogy would be with skin care product ingredients. One might be interested in ingredients of say lotion, and can form an idea about lotion just looking at ingredients. Another person is not interested in ingredients. The same here, device parameters are equivalent of lotion ingredients.

LED General Discussion Threads
There are general discussion threads that do not aim at precise specifications and guidelines. These threads might be a good venue for people interested in more general discussion.

free skin care · Fri May 02, 2008 8:45 am

Kassy_A wrote:

bethany wrote:

Regarding the update to the charts, it looks like we now have all the available info, so I will be updating and reposting the charts this weekend.

Beth, I think you should leave LS off your chart altogether, because some of the info in the chart was incorrect, and readily available information was missing. I was surprised you took it down before anyone could help you fill in the blanks or make corrections. Did you ask for input on Q or LS and I just missed it elsewhere? Sorry if I did.

Sorry Joni wasn't ready to share the specs here just yet, but her email stated why.. In the meantime, anyone is welcome to call or email to have their questions and concerns addressed. (I drove them crazy with questions when I bought my first light, and they were very gracious and told me everything I wanted to know.)

Lots of info, including contact #'s are at this link.

http://store.lightstim.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=special

Kassy,

The charts were posted in draft form, and I asked for info with my very first post:

bethany wrote:

Here are links to the DRAFTS of the comparison charts of the various LED units. I had to break them down into 2 pieces to get them to display, and I am also going to post a 2nd link for each pic in case you can see that one better.

Please note that there is some missing/unvalidated information, and I am happy to revise it if someone can just tell me what needs to be changed.

Any info that was on the chart regarding AA Lightstim came from their website, or info that you provided in other posts on EDS or in the PM to me with what you knew about the product.

After posting the chart, for people to review and share feedback (like Winnie updating the Baby Q warranty period), you shared LS's email stating that they were providing info, so the process was working just as we intended it to...we posted what we knew, and EDS members could help us refine it.

Kassy_A wrote:

Hi Kiddies; Just chiming in to say that additional Anti-Aging LightStim info will be forthcoming...And as soon as I receive it, bethany said she will update it in the chart.

I sent an email to Joni + Steve (owners of LS), and requested that they share some 'spec' information, that I could post in this thread for ya'll.

And based on the desire to provide complete and accurate info on each available option, I took the chart down until we heard from LS to ensure that AALS was depicted appropriately:

bethany wrote:

Just an FYI...since we have lots of new info coming, I took down the old charts. I wouldn't want anyone making any kind of decision based on inaccurate/incomplete info.

If LS does not want to provide any additional information, that is certainly their option. However, that does not mean that we should eliminate the AALS from the list....EDS members should be able to look at all available factual info as posted on the various websites, etc. and make decisions as they feel appropriate.

What I can do is:

1) Remove all AALS info that is not posted on their website, provided that such info is not found elsewhere on any other EDS posts, OR

2) I can footnote the source of all AALS info that is not from their website

3) I can footnote that all AALS missing data is due to the company policy to not share info.

I think the decision on the choices above should come from the EDS members on how they would like to depict this info, as it is here for their benefit.

If you guys could weigh in on this, I would appreciate it.

free skin care · Fri May 02, 2008 9:20 am

mpstat wrote:

Thread Purpose
The purpose of the info on this thread is to identify what to look for in LED devices and ask appropriate questions. The information is factual info based on specifications with numbers, and clearly identified guidelines..

This can eliminate the need to use one device after another in order to make a pick. It is not realistic for a person to use ALL the devices to make a conclusion. On another extreme using just one device does not justify that it is superior to the rest. We have choices to make and take different approaches.

It gives an ability more make educated decisions.

Here is a reminder on why this was originally posted:

bethany wrote:

Please keep in mind that I have no connection or alliance to ANY seller or manufacturer of any of these products. My only interest is in making it easier for people to choose based on what is important to THEM. For some it may be power, for others it may be length of trial period, etc. YOU pick what is important to YOU.

We are all faced with making product decisions each and every day, and we all make them in different ways...

- Some of us like to look at the clinical studies behind various products, and discuss the merits of each (like the healthy discussions between copper peptides and whether the Neova GHK-CU or the Skin Biology SRCP's are more proven, etc.)
- Some of us go based solely on what a product may have done for other people, and don;t even care about the numbers
- Some of us are solely focused on price

The methods and thought processes vary, and this comparison chart is for people who want to review the technical specificications.

]The key thing to note is that facts are just FACTS...there should be no emotion or bias associated with facts. You just decide if facts are a decision factor to you or not; if they are, you look at the facts and use them to help make a choice. If they are not important to you, you just ignore them.

This really isn't any different than buying a car...you compare price, how many people it will carry, certain features that you look for, the color, the engine size, etc. OR you just go with the one you were attracted to.

We all have the power of choice, and that includes the power to make an informed choice, if we so wish.

free skin care · Fri May 02, 2008 9:26 am

I personally would like the most complete and accurate comparative information possible on the chart. Ideally all of the information should come directly from the seller, either via the website or via direct responses from the seller. If a seller prefers not to provide that information, the section should be blank. It wouldn't be fair to a seller who preferred information not be made public, but who provided that information to a particular individual, to then have it made public here. It should be up to sellers to decide what information they want to release. You can indicate with an asterix that the seller has opted not to provide public information. For some people, that information itself might help them reach a buying decision. So, though it might not matter to some, if it matters to others, it's information that belongs on the chart.

Bethany, you are doing us all a terrific service in collecting this. Let's keep it factual, and we can debate the comparative merits of information policies elsewhere.

free skin care · Fri May 02, 2008 9:26 am

Personally, I'd like to see the AALS stay on the chart and follow either or both of the two options you've put out there. Most people are here who find the tech and facts important and thus lack of info is to me a fact if the company had made the choice to not share. Thanks for putting together the charts as I find it very helpful for comparisons without having to search through chatter.

free skin care · Fri May 02, 2008 10:47 am

flitcraft wrote:

Ideally all of the information should come directly from the seller, either via the website or via direct responses from the seller. If a seller prefers not to provide that information, the section should be blank.

I think this is probably the best route to take, and is consistent with the the vast majority of the info on the chart.

free skin care · Fri May 02, 2008 1:44 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

I do have a suggesstion for an addition to your chart though; How long has each particular LED device been around and what is the track record.

We could identify how long each particular light (or the company) has been available.

The "track record" is more subjective and cannot be easily compared. However, PM's or postings directly to the people who own the various products should help EDS members determine that if it is important to them.

free skin care · Fri May 02, 2008 1:59 pm

Another just in case any of you are interested info:

This morning I spent some time with our marketing director who is an inventor holds lots of patents and a patent expert but not a patent attorney. There are design patent and utility patent. Design patent is the look and Utility patent is the function. A very simple example is: A round or square bucket is design patent (look) and a single or dual handles is utility patent (function). There are lots of forms and rules to file a patent so 99.99999% of the time inventors ask patent attorney / expert to do it. When you file your patent you need to do a patent search and submit all similar patents. U.S. Government Patent Office reviews your application, examines your design and the similar patents you submitted and decides if your patent qualifies for a new one. It dose not matter if you submitted all similar patents or not U.S. GPO always checks the EXISTing patents. You can hold your patent for 20 years and after that it goes to public, means everybody can copy and manufacture it. Once it went public you could not patent it any more.

It takes about 12 ~ 18 months for design patent to be granted but it can be faster if the design is very simple. It takes at least 18 months and up to 3 or 4 years for utility patent. It costs $500~$2,000 for design patent and $3,000 and up for utility patent based on how complicated your design is.

Patent Pending means you file your application but the patent has not been granted yet. Of course if you have a patent pending application you do not want to post it on your website. Most likely LightStim filed a utility patent. Once the patent is granted you can get a report from US GPO and all info goes to public.

Next info will be LED wm. And maybe we can put that info in the chart too. I'll asked our R & D department LED expert when HE has time.

Everybody in the office is curious why suddenly I'm so interested in patent law and LED energy.

bethany:

I think it's fair to put LED life on the chart. It might be a consideration point for some memebers.

free skin care · Fri May 02, 2008 2:01 pm

MACrisis wrote:

I think it's fair to put LED life on the chart. It might be a consideration point for some memebers.

Agreed...I'll add it.

free skin care · Fri May 02, 2008 2:23 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

For the record, here is the latest I know regarding specs;

8 joules per minute of treatment (this was what I interpreted to 32 joules in 4 minutes, and Rita misconstrued as it being a laser. (I was asked in the thread about seconds, and assumed that was the case, I have since found out it was per minute).

So 8 joules/60 secs = 0.133 joules p/second

(this is very realistic and consistent with the range of other joules p/sec we are seeing of .045 to .216 for the other products. Unfortunately, this data is NOT on the LS website)

Quote:

The Anti-Aging Light™ mixes unique skin-specific Amber LED bulbs along with red and infrared LED bulbs. There are a total of 72 high-grade, high-output individual bulbs of varying wavelengths between 600nm and 1000 nm. The total output of which is 9,000mW!

But if you convert 9,000mW to joules/sec using the calculator link below, you get 9 joules/sec, which is grossly out of sync with the other products we are comparing and more appropriate for a laser.

http://www.convertworld.com/en/power/Joule+per+second.html

I did some research on the strength of lasers and found a medical study statement that skin dissolves at 5 joules/sec, so if you were using a light at 9 joules/sec, you might soon be faceless. Shock

Quote:

The threshold for skin vaporization is approximately 5 J/cm2. A fluence of 5-7 J/cm2 provides clean and efficient tissue ablation and dissipates much of the heat in the plume of vaporized tissue. http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic92.htm

Can anyone please let me know if I am looking at this incorrectly?

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