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Anti-Aging LightStim
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patzy
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Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:23 pm      Reply with quote
Kassy_A wrote:
patzy wrote:


Hi. Initially, where did you post your pictures??

Secondly I researched online and found this:
The light from the LEDs interacts with cells and stimulates them to produce new collagen and elastin. Studies confirm that the same LED energy can be used to inhibit collagen formation, which can be helpful in the treatment of acne scars. By manipulating the wavelengths, cells can be turned on and off. Yellow light LEDs are used for photo-rejuvenation. Blue light LEDs are used in the treatment of acne. Red light LEDs are used for Photodynamic therapy.

So 'yellow light is the one that helps create collagen and elastin? Elastin is the biggie, as it gives skin that "bounce-back" when one smiles etc. Any research I have done I have not found any product (even those that claim they do) that creates elastin in the skin, this is why I'm curoious about using LED light.
Anyone have info they could point me to?
Thanks!
Notice it says led light can also TURN OFF COLLAGEN formation Shock ....thus my query.


patzy wrote:


Don't mean to sound contrary, I'm just cautious when something seems too good to believe. Smile



In answer to the 1st question; I posted pictures in many different threads, for many different reasons. Silly me did it very honestly and with the best of intentions, so you can imagine my shock and anger when the skeptical tongues started wagging (behind my back, or so they thought) with insinuations of "lying", "photoshopping", "she must work for the company" and (my favorite), "nobody's skin can look that good at that age without plenty of professional help"... Laughing (I'm still waiting to book a professional facial which will be my 1st!.. Maybe on the big 61..Embarassed )

Anyway, too many skeptics have made it uncomfortable for a lot of us to want to continue sharing photos publicly, for the simple reason, few people believe what they are seeing. It's sad though because now everybody is missing out on some really lovely happenings.. (And not only in the LED arena!)

Elastin: I have always heard/read that the elastin we have in our youth, is all we will ever 'make', and that it declines slowly through our lifetime. Only recently I have read, that studies are showing that "zinc" applied topically, shows promise in generating new elastin.

Collagen: The job of the LED is to stimulate the cells to produce more ATP, which over time, produces new + healthy collagen. As for "turning off collagen formation"... I highly doubt it, and haven't read anything to imply an LED could do that. (If I ever do come across such a thing, I will scream it out loud and clear all over the forum!)

After having tried several wavelengths of LED's, I would say without hesitation, that my fastest and best results, were with the combination of lights in the AALS (amber/orange, red, near infrared)


Well good genetics can certainly help some folks have nicer skin in later years. I had a family friend make it into her 80's with the most flawless creamy skin...we should all be that fortunate.

As for the comments about pictures. That was more directed at the commercial websites that are selling the products and stating they do such and such....where are the studies and before and after pictures? I've researched facial exercises and never found a site that had pictures...ok one and the difference in the 6 or so pics was minimal at best.
So I continue to be skeptical and ask tons fo questions of those that use the products...so nothing personal, I just want all the facts I can get. I mean NASA started this light therapy issue and I've yet been able to find any studies or pics from that arena.
Oh, I posted the site address in a recent post in this thread regarding the wavelength that STOPS collagen creation. (purportedly used to ease scarring.)
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Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:04 pm      Reply with quote
Patzy - I can totally understand where you're coming from. I read all of the rave reviews and horror tales on these types of forums and tend to roll my eyes at them all. And as for all the hype in marketing, most of it is based in fantasy land. I have tried most everything - DIY potions, expensive/cheap creams, clinical treatments and just about every skin gadget. I have NEVER had anything that has made me say, "Wow, what a difference".

It does take a leap of faith to commit to using a gadget regularly - but I do so mainly because I enjoy it. It's my "me" time and I find it relaxing. Now, I'm definitely on the down-hill slide when it comes to aging - but I'm holding it together allot better than many women my age. So as I said earlier, I have to believe that something is working (but in all truth, it's probably just the Retiin-A).

But I would not advise anyone to buy a skin gadget unless they're prepared to put in the time and effort. If you're just going to have a negative attitude, use it a few times and then throw it in a draw, then it's not for you. And nothing is going to yield instant tangible results except for Botox and a face-lift.

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Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:50 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
Kassy_A wrote:
Have you checked the UK ebay for used LED's, or contacted Lightstim directly?

I haven't written the email I promised a couple of days ago yet, so I'll ask about international shipping when I do.


Lightstim have always shipped internationally - remember, I'm in Oz and have always found their service to be fast and efficient. Just order from their website.

Any serum can be used with the device - you definitely don't have to buy their serum (that's a recent addition anyway). Just don't use it with Retin-A. Plus, it can always be used on bare skin.


Probably a dumb question, Embarassed but can you clarify what you mean when you say "don't use it with Retin-A"? Do you mean, don't apply just before you use your LED or do you mean, don't use the LED when you are using Retin-A? TIA!
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Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:04 pm      Reply with quote
havana8 wrote:
Probably a dumb question, Embarassed but can you clarify what you mean when you say "don't use it with Retin-A"? Do you mean, don't apply just before you use your LED or do you mean, don't use the LED when you are using Retin-A? TIA!


Yes sorry, I should have clarified what I meant. I do not apply Retin-A before an LED treatment. It is fine to use it afterwards. This is because Retin-A effects the skin's sensitivity to light.

Below is Steve from Lightstim's response to my questions on the subject of pre-treatment serums:

Quote:
Thanks for your questions. Stay away from Retin-A or products with Retin-A in them. Other than that, we have not heard of any problems. As far as serums and creams before using your Light: This almost always enhances the benefits and results. The important thing is to make sure that you have worked the product INTO the skin and that there is not moist residue on the surface of the skin. Then, as long as it's dry you can start. Waiting 10 minutes is long enough to insure penetration and dryness in most cases.

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Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:24 pm      Reply with quote
Kassy_A wrote:

I appreciate you sharing that, and I also agree to wait until it has absorbed.

I just prefer to go one step further, and remove any remnants that could still be on the skin (if I believe something occlusive is in my serum du jour.)

LED treatments are too much of an ongoing time commitment for me, to have a lingering thought that I could be wasting it. (I'm not a gambler Laughing )

I will stay out of further discussion on the "occlusive" topic now, as I've already stated all of my reasons so frequently, and ad nauseum.. Wink


ETA: I found this amongst the notes I saved when I was researching LED serums + ingredients.

Specifically, the topical composition is capable of transmitting at least 80%, preferably at least 85%, and more preferably at least 90%, of the EM emitted by the LEDs to the skin. In other words, the topical composition absorbs, reflects, scatters, or blocks little or no EM emitted by the LEDs, thereby minimizing any potential interference thereof with the LEDs.


The quote noted above comes from System And Method For Reducing The Appearance Of Fine Lines And Wrinkles And Improving the Skin Tone, US Patent Application 20100145255.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2010/0145255.html

Interestingly, the patent suggests that an LED pretreatment product should preferably be:

in the form of an oil-in-water emulsion, with a suggested amount of water ranging from about 40% to about 60%. Suitable oils include materials also known as skin conditioning agents such as nonvolatile silicones, esters, paraffinic hydrocarbons, vegetable oils, and synthetic oils.

So it doesn't appear that the scientists/chemists at Estee Lauder think oils or silicones are occlusive to LED light.

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Keliu
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Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:03 pm      Reply with quote
There's a wealth of information on suitable topicals in the study Lacy posted. It goes on to say:

Quote:
The topical composition of the present invention may further contain one or more additional skin care ingredients for further improving the efficacy of the skin rejuvenating agents and the EM emitted by LED in reducing the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles and improving the skin tone. Such additional ingredients may include, but are not limited to: oils, surfactants, humectants, botanical extracts, vitamins, antioxidants, sunscreen agents, preservatives, and the like. The topical composition may be in the form of an emulsion, gel, suspension, aqueous solution, or in the anhydrous form. If present in the form of an emulsion, the composition may be in the form of a water-in-oil or oil-in-water emulsion. Preferably, the topical composition of the present invention is in the form of an oil-in-water emulsion, with a suggested amount of water ranging from about 10% to about 90%, more preferably from about 20% to about 70%, and most preferably from about 40% to about 60%. If the topical composition is present in the anhydrous form, it may also contain one or more oils, and if so, suggested ranges are from about 1 to 95% by weight of the total composition.

Suitable oils include materials also known as skin conditioning agents such as nonvolatile silicones, esters, paraffinic hydrocarbons, vegetable oils, and synthetic oils. The term “nonvolatile” as used herein means that the compound has a vapor pressure of less than about 2 mm of mercury at 20° C. Preferably, the skin conditioning agent is characterized by a viscosity from about 5 to 10 centistokes at 25° C. up to about 1,000,000 centipoise at 25° C. Particularly preferred are the nonvolatile silicones, including but not limited to: amine functional silicones such as amodimethicone, phenyl substituted silicones such as bisphenylhexamethicone, trimethylsiloxyphenyl dimethicone, phenyl trimethicone, polyphenylmethylsiloxane, dimethicone, phenyl dimethicone, diphenyl dimethicone, and dimethicone substituted with C 2-30 alkyl groups such as cetyl dimethicone. Suitable esters include mono-, di-, or triesters. Monoesters are in the general form RCO—R′ wherein R and R′ are each independently a C 1-45 straight or branched chain, saturated or unsaturated alkyl. Diesters may be formed by the reaction of a C 1-45 aliphatic or aromatic mono- or dihydric alcohol with a C 1-45 aliphatic or aromatic mono- or dicarboxylic acid, as appropriate, where the aliphatic group may be straight or branched chain, or saturated or unsaturated. Suitable triesters include the reaction products of a C 1-45 aliphatic or aromatic alcohol having at least three hydroxyl groups with a C 1-45 carboxylic acid, or C 1-45 aliphatic or aromatic alcohols with a C 1-45 tricarboxylic acid, with the aliphatic chains being linear or branched, saturated or unsaturated. Examples include esters of caprylic and capric acids and glycerin such as caprylic/capric triglycerides; esters of glycerin or polyglycerin and stearic acid such as glyceryl stearate, diglyceryl diisostearate; esters of malic acid and isostearyl alcohol such as diisostearyl malate; coco caprylate caprate and the like.

Humectants which may be used in the topical composition of the invention and include glycols, sugars, and the like. Suitable glycols are in monomeric or polymeric form and include polyethylene and polypropylene glycols such as PEG 4-200, which are polyethylene glycols having from 4 to 200 repeating ethylene oxide units; as well as C 1-6 alkylene glycols such as propylene glycol, butylene glycol, pentylene glycol, and the like. Suitable sugars, some of which are also polyhydric alcohols, are also suitable humectants. Examples of such sugars include glucose, fructose, honey, hydrogenated honey, inositol, maltose, mannitol, maltitol, sorbitol, sucrose, xylitol, xylose, and so on. Preferably, the humectants used in the composition of the invention are C 1-6 , preferably C 2-4 alkylene glycols, most particularly butylene glycol. If present, such humectants may range from about 0.001% to about 25%, preferably from about 0.005% to about 20%, more preferably from about 0.1% to about 15%, by total weight of the topical composition.

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Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:12 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
Patzy - I have tried most everything - DIY potions, expensive/cheap creams, clinical treatments and just about every skin gadget. I have NEVER had anything that has made me say, "Wow, what a difference".

It does take a leap of faith to commit to using a gadget regularly - but I do so mainly because I enjoy it. It's my "me" time and I find it relaxing. Now, I'm definitely on the down-hill slide when it comes to aging - but I'm holding it together allot better than many women my age. So as I said earlier, I have to believe that something is working (but in all truth, it's probably just the Retiin-A).

But I would not advise anyone to buy a skin gadget unless they're prepared to put in the time and effort. If you're just going to have a negative attitude, use it a few times and then throw it in a draw, then it's not for you. lift.


Keliu, What if you did none of the things you do that you think 'do nothing' ===You might then NOT look a lot better than the women your age.

I see myself in a mirror and I'm critical and then I go out and I notice I am not wrinkled, not sagging, not folded in in the face like so many in my age group. I know what I'm doing is working. It IS my validation. Yes - I know genetics,etc. and I am so fortunate that way but I do also believe those steps are making a difference.

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Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:14 pm      Reply with quote
A second question - would you be willing to just do retin-a for a year to test the hypothesis. HELL no - me neither.

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Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:26 pm      Reply with quote
hmm,

I don't do any of the gadgets except for the HF I just purchased not even Retin A and for almost 57 I have the snap back of a 30 and under, plus few wrinkles and no sag other than slightly hooded lids???

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Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:38 pm      Reply with quote
sister sweets wrote:
Keliu, What if you did none of the things you do that you think 'do nothing' ===You might then NOT look a lot better than the women your age.


Exactly! That's why I keep on keeping on. My motto is "You've got to be in it to win it". Maybe, if I wasn't using all the gadgets that I do, my jowls would be bouncing off my shoulders! But I quite like the challenge of it all - if I didn't, I'd just go and get a face-lift!

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Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:54 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
sister sweets wrote:
Keliu, What if you did none of the things you do that you think 'do nothing' ===You might then NOT look a lot better than the women your age.


Exactly! That's why I keep on keeping on. My motto is "You've got to be in it to win it". Maybe, if I wasn't using all the gadgets that I do, my jowls would be bouncing off my shoulders! But I quite like the challenge of it all - if I didn't, I'd just go and get a face-lift!


You do give me food for thought Keliu, I have to wonder what my skin would be like if I did do even half of the things you do? Smile I know I have been blessed with great genes as far as skin is concerned, but taking another 10 years off my appearance could only be a good thing! Laughing

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Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:25 am      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
You do give me food for thought Keliu, I have to wonder what my skin would be like if I did do even half of the things you do? Smile I know I have been blessed with great genes as far as skin is concerned, but taking another 10 years off my appearance could only be a good thing! Laughing


I don't think my genes have got anything to do with anything - my parents were definitely Ma & Pa Kettle material by their late 40s and my Mum didn't bother with any kind of skin care, not even Ponds. If she had known what I get up to, she'd of thought I was a lunatic.

I've always admitted to being skeptical about gadgets, and I don't buy into all the expensive skincare hype. However, I figure I may as well give things a try - as long as they're not harmful, well, why not? The only thing I don't do is facial exercises and sometimes I feel guilty about that - but I just can't stand them.

But I truly would love to find something that, after I've used it, made me think "Wow, I can see such an improvement!"

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Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:53 am      Reply with quote
thanks for sharing nice information!!!!
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Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:46 am      Reply with quote
sister sweets wrote:
A second question - would you be willing to just do retin-a for a year to test the hypothesis. HELL no - me neither.


You mean just use Retin A nightly for 1 year and nothing else (other than sunscreen, which you have to use with RA)? Why wouldn't you be willing to do that? Retin A is one of the only proven anti-aging ingredients we have?
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Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:13 am      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
sister sweets wrote:
A second question - would you be willing to just do retin-a for a year to test the hypothesis. HELL no - me neither.


You mean just use Retin A nightly for 1 year and nothing else (other than sunscreen, which you have to use with RA)? Why wouldn't you be willing to do that? Retin A is one of the only proven anti-aging ingredients we have?


I think I almost would, I need my oil cleanser, as you said sunscreen and I might find I need more moisture than just sunscreen! Other actives nothing that has wowed me so much I couldn't live a year without them!

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Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:17 am      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:


I think I almost would, I need my oil cleanser, as you said sunscreen and I might find I need more moisture than just sunscreen! Other actives nothing that has wowed me so much I couldn't live a year without them!


I actually have been talking to someone about something very similar. There hasn't been anything else Wow me either. I think the ones with really good skin are the ones who have been using RA, even just a few nights a week, for years. It takes time for the RA to work, and with other things they use they don't think that the results are coming from the RA, but I would be willing to bet money that this is where the results really are coming from!
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Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:27 am      Reply with quote
I agree just having used the Green Cream 9 which is 0.9% compared to the 1% NCN (pretty close) I saw a difference and that's an OTC retinol! That's why I say I would, I believe from all I read and hear Retin A is the major player for skin! Good genes help, but better is always a big plus! Very Happy

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Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:44 am      Reply with quote
Can anyone tell me if the Lightstim is at all effective for reducing the 11s between the eyes?

Also, Kassy, can you please comment about whether the 20% Matrixyl 3000 serum that NCN sells is a good serum (this is what I currently have)? I know your totally awesome post on serums essentially said "any good serum will do," but I'm such a newbie I need a little extra validation on it. Embarassed

My skincare regimen right now is using a glycolic facial wash (MD Forte), some toner, NCNs: lemon peel bioferment (for some hyperpigmentation), CP Serum (copper peptides), the Matrixyl serum, all-trans retinol 2% and when I feel dryer, the rejuvenating face oil (a combo of jojoba, avocado, etc. oils). Would you suggest using the Lightstim after using the bioferment, copper peptide and serum, then wiping off before the LED tx... OR applying those things afterwards...

Thanks!!!
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Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:03 pm      Reply with quote
**Cross posting from the AALS treatment serum thread, since the same conversation is going on there**

Lacy53 wrote:

So it doesn't appear that the scientists/chemists at Estee Lauder think oils or silicones are occlusive to LED light.

To conduct their study of the 2 example serums, the inventors used the Tanda Regenerate (660nm red) LED device. Tanda does offer for sale 2 different Pretreatment Topical Gels for use with their system; Tända Regenerate Pre-Treatment Gelfor use with their red light and Tända Clear Pre-Treatment Gel for use with their blue light. The description for these gels is:

Tända Pre-Treatment Gels
Specially formulated to optimize the delivery of light to the skin:


-Free of light-reflecting properties which may interfere with light delivery
-High degree of transparency allowing for maximum light penetration
-Specific viscosity reduces reflection and refraction of light to the skin

All Tända topicals are botanically-based, hypoallergenic and non-comedogenic.


While that does sound very much like the wording in the patent application, I can't say for sure that these pretreatment serums are related to the patent application. Tanda doesn't seem to list the ingredients on their website either.

http://www.tandaskincare.com/pre-treatment-topicals



-What I've underlined is relevant to all I have tried to share here for more than a year on the subject. (Thanks for posting that!)

-For anyone who is interested in trying to really learn how to read a 'patent', and more importantly pick out the important parts they try to hide, this website is a great start;

http://chemistscorner.com/how-to-read-a-cosmetic-patent/

DIY'ers will find a wealth of info throughout these pages (and other links provided) as well. In fact, it's because of my 3 years of intense study (overall), that I was able to wind up with the couple of sentences I personally noted from that entire patent;

Specifically, the topical composition is capable of transmitting at least 80%, preferably at least 85%, and more preferably at least 90%, of the EM emitted by the LEDs to the skin. In other words, the topical composition absorbs, reflects, scatters, or blocks little or no EM emitted by the LEDs, thereby minimizing any potential interference thereof with the LEDs.


@All, my sincere apologies to those of you who have had so much confusion thrown at you in the form of "copy + paste". It's unfortunate that the really important parts were left out, and only the confusing parts (that could perhaps cast doubt on what I said) were copied + pasted.

Anyway, I hope those who are really interested in learning how to decipher the good stuff contained in *patents*, will take advantage of the link I posted above. And of course you are always welcome to pick my brain for thoughts, as I've already done a great deal of my homework... Very Happy

In closing I'd just like to tell all of you this; I have always been happy to share everything I've tried, learned, screwed up royally or had great results with, here with all of you. Yes, I posted pictures of both disasters as well as raves when something proves worthy.

A few of you know me personally, and several of you are Facebook and Skype *friends*. Because of that you know that if I post a picture it is the real deal, and hokus pokus (or hiding behind an alias) is not what I'm about. In short I am what I am and have nothing to hide. I'm no glamour girl. I couldn't care less about designer anything. I own one or two lip glosses and occasionally put some clear lash conditioner on my eyelashes. I've had a broken nose for the last 30 something years that was never a priority to do something about. I have no lips to speak of, my entire tooth structure is crooked from a bout of meningitis that had me in an 8 day coma in my youth. And last but not least the dreaded sag is *trying* to take over.. Laughing

So with all that said, it's only right that those of you who don't know me, can at least give me the benefit of the doubt, and perhaps believe that by God, the things that I've shared here are indeed doing what I claim. As I said before, "I'm no glamour girl", but I'm fairly confident that I don't look like the typical 60 year old, who has smoked for 46 years. And NO, I haven't had any type of cosmetic procedure at all. I'm having too much fun seeing how well I can hold back the aging clock on my own. If I ever do make that appointment though, I assure you it will be to fix my poor crooked nose, so I can breath through it.. Laughing

Me + Mr Kassy (Oct 2010. He's 64 and not a good listener, cute non the less )

Image Very Happy

The Grandson's and I (Oct 2010.. I put this in so you can see my skin enjoys the same glow as their's.

Image

So that's what you get from me; no secrets, no lies, no drama and hopefully no confusion. As always, take it or leave it alone...

BIG hugs,
Kathy Very Happy

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Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:17 pm      Reply with quote
Luminosity wrote:
Can anyone tell me if the Lightstim is at all effective for reducing the 11s between the eyes?

Also, Kassy, can you please comment about whether the 20% Matrixyl 3000 serum that NCN sells is a good serum (this is what I currently have)? I know your totally awesome post on serums essentially said "any good serum will do," but I'm such a newbie I need a little extra validation on it. Embarassed

My skincare regimen right now is using a glycolic facial wash (MD Forte), some toner, NCNs: lemon peel bioferment (for some hyperpigmentation), CP Serum (copper peptides), the Matrixyl serum, all-trans retinol 2% and when I feel dryer, the rejuvenating face oil (a combo of jojoba, avocado, etc. oils). Would you suggest using the Lightstim after using the bioferment, copper peptide and serum, then wiping off before the LED tx... OR applying those things afterwards...

Thanks!!!


* I have only slight 11's (when frowning), and haven't noticed any change.

* NCN's matrixyl serum is wonderful stuff!

* If you are having positive results from "CP's", by all means use them in your pre LED serum.. (For instance; one or two drops mixed into a little of NCN's serum, plus a couple of drops of distilled water would work nicely for you. Just apply to your clean, exfoliated face and let it fully absorb for a while. (30 minutes to an hour work well for most of my pre treatment ventures. And then I just wipe with a damp cloth prior to my treatment. For me, it's what I believe works best!)

* Your overall regime looks really nice. You have some of the best powerhouses working for ya.

In my experience, the simplest things have turned out to be the most rewarding.

Have fun!

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♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥
rileygirl
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Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:48 pm      Reply with quote
Kassy, I know I have told you this before, but I will say it again. You have gorgeous, glowing skin!
rileygirl
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Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:49 pm      Reply with quote
I am confused now on the patent Lacy linked to. I will admit I just skimmed and did not read its entirety. Is Estee Lauder behind this or is Tanda?
Swissmom
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Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:15 pm      Reply with quote
Kathy, thank you for posting your picture. You look gorgeous! And if I can look as good as you do, I would be so happy. You give me alot of hope that we can look youthful and have a natural beauty as we age.
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Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:35 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
I am confused now on the patent Lacy linked to. I will admit I just skimmed and did not read its entirety. Is Estee Lauder behind this or is Tanda?


I did the same a bit of a cold has me too lazy to head up to the pc and reading all the studies on the iPhone is a bit much, but I am curious about the answer as well!

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rileygirl
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Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:59 pm      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
rileygirl wrote:
I am confused now on the patent Lacy linked to. I will admit I just skimmed and did not read its entirety. Is Estee Lauder behind this or is Tanda?


I did the same a bit of a cold has me too lazy to head up to the pc and reading all the studies on the iPhone is a bit much, but I am curious about the answer as well!


I found this on the other thread that is talking about the same thing!

Lacy53 wrote:


First of all, I should say that I THINK the inventors of this patent (Popescu, Hawkins, Lombardi and Wolf) work for Estee Lauder since the Correspondence Address is listed as The Estee Lauder Cos. Inc.
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