Confusion about Retin-A and thinner skin
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Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:00 am

Hello All! I would so appreciate the advice of you wonderful ladies regarding retinoids.

I have very dry + fair skin that is just beginning to show fine lines under my eyes. I want to use the mildest form of Retin A, but could use some advice on how often to apply. I was thinking every two or three days would be enough for me.

I've also read on the forums in several places that it isn't advised to use a moisturizer at the same time, but is that the case for extremely dry skin also? If I did follow it with a gentle oil or moisturizer after it has absorbed, would that knock the good out of it?

Thanks for your help.

free skin care · Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:41 am

If you're looking for a retinoid product specifically for the eyes, why don't you consider Avene's Eluage gel or cream? It has hyaluronic acid fragments which help to buffer against the drying effects. The active compound is retinaldehyde which gets converted in the skin to tretinoin (the same active in retin-A). Can be purchased online atwww.tubotica.com,www.frenchcosmeticsforless.com,www.leguidesante.com.

It's more effective if you don't apply a moisturizer after it (applies for retin-a as well as Eluage) but if you need to, you can apply moisturizer one hour after applying the retinoid.

Starting off, you can use alternate nights or one night in three but the results would be slower. If using retin-A though, it is probably better to start off with alternate nights at least for the first 2 or three weeks.

free skin care · Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:13 pm

Kitteny wrote:

Hello All! I would so appreciate the advice of you wonderful ladies regarding retinoids.

I have very dry + fair skin that is just beginning to show fine lines under my eyes. I want to use the mildest form of Retin A, but could use some advice on how often to apply. I was thinking every two or three days would be enough for me.

I've also read on the forums in several places that it isn't advised to use a moisturizer at the same time, but is that the case for extremely dry skin also? If I did follow it with a gentle oil or moisturizer after it has absorbed, would that knock the good out of it?

Thanks for your help.

I use Retin=-A under my eyes and put a light layer of moisturizer under my eyes first - allow it to penetrate about 5 minutes or so and put the retin-a over it!!!!!

Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:50 pm

Thank you "sister sweets", that is just what I will try.

free skin care · Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:16 pm

When I was 19 I was treating my acne using retin a micro and using it all over my face. Within a few months I could see deep lines developing around my eyes. It was totally one of the worst thing I've ever done to my skin! I feel like acids/retinos/peels can totally be a double edged sword on younger skin.

I remember reading on a skincare forum a few years ago about a gal who said she said reversed the thinning skin effect from abusing peels by using EGF from skinactives.

Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:14 pm

Using the moisturizer like sister sweets recommended made all the difference to my very dry skin these past several nights.

I know that it might reduce the strength of the retin a, but I'm willing to take that chance, and still hope for some benefit.

free skin care · Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:49 pm

I sometimes mix my Retin-A micro gel with a bit of homemade facial oil blend. I don't mind that it slightly dilutes the Retin-A -- it makes it go farther, and it irritates my skin less and helps reduce flakiness.

free skin care · Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:31 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

Septembergirl, this is a great thread!...

While I was at PubMed, looking at the link you provided above, I started browsing around and came across information comparing Tazarotene 0.1% versus Retin-A 0.5% for photodamaged skin.

It seems, if I understand it correctly, that the Tazarotene offers superior results, and one of the side bar 'related' articles, goes so far as to say it thickens the stratum corneum by 70%.

Here's the link. Also check out the 'related topic' links;

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15203997?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

I don't recall seeing any topics here about Tazarotene, but it definitely sounds interesting. Or maybe I've just missed it.. Rolling Eyes

ETA: Is Tazarotene in any relation to Tazorac?

Thanks for kindly posting the link to Tazarotene studies. One question is that I can't locate the article that states Tazarotene builds up the stratum corneum by 70%.
Any Googling I've done says it thins the skin. If you have a moment could you give me the heading of the particular article? (maybe my brain was overcome with all the info and clinical studies jargon. Smile

BTW All I found this info: Extensive studies have been done of Retin-A and Renova, and the results, as in this study, indicate a statistical benefit in terms of improving fine wrinkling, irregular pigmentation and coarse texture.

It is unrealistic to expect dramatic changes, however. The improvement is usually relatively subtle, but noticeable in the double-blind studies that have been conducted.

Link:
http://www.ynhh.org/healthlink/womens/womens_3_03.html

You'll find the above statement in the second column of the article.

I was ready to order Green Cream today, thinking the retinol would just speed up skin turn over..but the thinning info. made me hesitate.

Anyone here with fair thin skin have experience with Retin A or tazarotene???
I was really excited about using Retin A, but now I'm not sure. Crying or Very sad

free skin care · Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:12 pm

Patzy, from the article you linked to it says:

Retinoids work by sloughing off the dead outer layers of the skin, exposing the skin underneath and promoting the growth of collagen, which thickens the skin fibers that preserve moisture. By removing dead surface cells that become harder to shed as we age, and by thinning and flattening the outer layer of skin, retinoids give skin that much-valued “rosy glow.”

Retin A thins the Outer layer, but it thickens the inner layer, which is what you want for aging skin.

free skin care · Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:06 pm

patzy wrote:

Kassy_A wrote:

Septembergirl, this is a great thread!...

While I was at PubMed, looking at the link you provided above, I started browsing around and came across information comparing Tazarotene 0.1% versus Retin-A 0.5% for photodamaged skin.

It seems, if I understand it correctly, that the Tazarotene offers superior results, and one of the side bar 'related' articles, goes so far as to say it thickens the stratum corneum by 70%.

Here's the link. Also check out the 'related topic' links;

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15203997?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

I don't recall seeing any topics here about Tazarotene, but it definitely sounds interesting. Or maybe I've just missed it.. Rolling Eyes

ETA: Is Tazarotene in any relation to Tazorac?

Thanks for kindly posting the link to Tazarotene studies. One question is that I can't locate the article that states Tazarotene builds up the stratum corneum by 70%.
Any Googling I've done says it thins the skin. If you have a moment could you give me the heading of the particular article? (maybe my brain was overcome with all the info and clinical studies jargon. Smile

BTW All I found this info: Extensive studies have been done of Retin-A and Renova, and the results, as in this study, indicate a statistical benefit in terms of improving fine wrinkling, irregular pigmentation and coarse texture.

It is unrealistic to expect dramatic changes, however. The improvement is usually relatively subtle, but noticeable in the double-blind studies that have been conducted.

Link:
http://www.ynhh.org/healthlink/womens/womens_3_03.html

You'll find the above statement in the second column of the article.

I was ready to order Green Cream today, thinking the retinol would just speed up skin turn over..but the thinning info. made me hesitate.

Anyone here with fair thin skin have experience with Retin A or tazarotene???
I was really excited about using Retin A, but now I'm not sure. Crying or Very sad

I have not seen a study about Tazorene thickening the stratum corneum, but there is a study that shows that topical Isotretinoin thickens the stratum corneum.

Here is that study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16724545

free skin care · Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:34 pm

patzy wrote:

Kassy_A wrote:

Septembergirl, this is a great thread!...

While I was at PubMed, looking at the link you provided above, I started browsing around and came across information comparing Tazarotene 0.1% versus Retin-A 0.5% for photodamaged skin.

It seems, if I understand it correctly, that the Tazarotene offers superior results, and one of the side bar 'related' articles, goes so far as to say it thickens the stratum corneum by 70%.

Here's the link. Also check out the 'related topic' links;

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15203997?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

I don't recall seeing any topics here about Tazarotene, but it definitely sounds interesting. Or maybe I've just missed it.. Rolling Eyes

ETA: Is Tazarotene in any relation to Tazorac?

Thanks for kindly posting the link to Tazarotene studies. One question is that I can't locate the article that states Tazarotene builds up the stratum corneum by 70%.
Any Googling I've done says it thins the skin.

Here is a link to a meta-analysis of the clinical studies done on Tazarotene. I didn't notice any mention of thickening of the Stratum Corneum either.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2544371/

free skin care · Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:39 am

Retinoids are proven to reverse the signs of aging more than any other topical. Like rileygirl said, they thin the outer layer but thicken the dermis and increase collagen and improve elastin. By the way they can be quite drying which can cause temporary dehydration lines which will go away with continued use or can be rectified by adding a moisturizer to your regimen. Personally I use Tazorac, wait 30 minutes, and then add a moisturizer on top.

free skin care · Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:39 pm

I couldn't find the study mentioning an increase in the stratum corneum either. However, I did find this info saying tazarotene (which is the generic name for Tazorac) compacted the stratum corneum:

Quote:

Compared with vehicle, tazarotene was associated with an increase in epidermal polarity (P = 0.008) and epidermal thickness (P = 0.012), and a tendency for stratum corneum compaction. Tazarotene was also associated with widened intercellular spaces (reported as epidermal oedema) relative to vehicle (P < 0.001). CONCLUSIONS: Treatment of photodamaged skin with tazarotene is associated with an amelioration of keratinocytic and melanocytic atypia, an improvement in epidermal polarity, and an increase in epidermal thickness.

Also make note of the mentioned 'increase in epidermal thickness'.

On a final note - my derms have always said that Tazorac is 'stronger' than Retin A. I took this to mean it would work better helping my acne and with the anti-aging stuff. I have used Tazorac for a long time (15 years on and off) and just recently switched to Retin A Micro.

free skin care · Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:42 pm

lisacollins00 wrote:

I have not seen a study about Tazorene thickening the stratum corneum, but there is a study that shows that topical Isotretinoin thickens the stratum corneum.

Here is that study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16724545

That's a pretty cool find, lisacollins. I wonder when a topical version of isotretinoin will be around? It looks like the isotretinoin is less irritating that the tretinoin from what I could read.

free skin care · Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:40 pm

foxe wrote:

lisacollins00 wrote:

I have not seen a study about Tazorene thickening the stratum corneum, but there is a study that shows that topical Isotretinoin thickens the stratum corneum.

Here is that study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16724545

That's a pretty cool find, lisacollins. I wonder when a topical version of isotretinoin will be around? It looks like the isotretinoin is less irritating that the tretinoin from what I could read.

There is a topical version of isotretinoin called Isotrex. Here is one place that sells it.

http://www.inhousepharmacy.com/skin-care/isotrex.html

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:06 am

i am so glad I found this thread. I recently learned that the skin starts out with a thin epidermis and thick dermis. But as we age the reverse becomes true. The idea with retinoids is to restore that earlier state - thin epidermis, thick dermis. But I am fearful of actually using retin-a because my skin has been thinned so severely by steroid injections for pain. Any further thinning would be disastrous. I guess I might try it on one small patch of skin and wait to see what happens. Earlier in the thread several people mentioned niacinamide as a proven skin thickener. Did they mean in vitamin form or as a topical agent?

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:25 am

i am useing skinceutical rentin A 0.5right now, and i do not know what is the matter ,it caused my pimple again. so bad

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:34 am

alexes wrote:

Did they mean in vitamin form or as a topical agent?

As a topical, alexes. You can check out NIA24 - go to their website and you can read about it.

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:22 am

I think its a great idea to use niacinamide or NIA 24 with a retinoid. Thats what I did when my skin was going through a very fragile phase. You could use the NIA 24 under the retinoid and then when u get used to it you can eventually place the retinoid underneath. NIA 24 does prevent the thinning of the outer epidermis, NIA 24 conducted a study about this, it is on their website. In short, NIA helps the patient tolerate retinoids.

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