Scar treatment questions for the pros...not much time left
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Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:38 pm

Ok, I will be starting dermarolling (first with 1.5mm then after my first round will move up to 2.0mm) for treating moderate acne scarring in Feb

Its mostly scarred pores, boxscars, and a few ice picks...I have been reading through many many posts here and other places, like acne boards and the skinbio forums (for their CPs)

I have LEDs (660/880nm, and yellow light) that I will also be using on a daily basis...my skin type is sensitive, medium brown tone, hyperpigments kind of easily, medium to sometimes oily

I had used copper peptides before from SB, they didnt have the best effect on me, though I must admit I was using their stronger products right off the bat...Super CP serum and spot treating with SC2X...I did this however without using anything to re-open the scars, like no acid peels or needling/rolling etc...but if I used super CP on a newly forming scarred pore etc, it would hasten the wound into a scar (not cool!), perhaps I need to keep applying it, but it is disheartening to see that occur

However, I really do need to choose a topical(s) that will assist with healing and collagen growth/tissue repair...my choices boil down to these:

Copper Peptides, matryxl 3000, terproline, Vit C serum (most likely will just be supplemental to other topicals)...Its upsetting that CPs have this effect on me, as I read the science and have faith in it (it makes sense to me)

My plan, since my skin is sensitive, first will roll with a 1.5mm, then after 5 weeks roll again with a 2.0mm...will continue to roll for 8-10 months with 5 week breaks, using LEDs and the 1-2 topicals

Internally I eat very well, organic greens, buttermilk, clean water, organic cereal whole grains (oats, quinoa, wheat, brown basmati rice) etc...supplement with chelated cal/mag, vitamin D, grapeseed extract, and will add Vit C tablets daily when I start treatment...more info: Im a 25 year old male, works out regularly, weight lifting, running during warmer months (its winter where I live)

But stress from scarring is upsetting me and sometimes takes away from my health Sad

...thats why I'm finally going to do something about it...this board is loaded with information, and I would appreciate any help

PS I did read that many people have had problems with CPs here, or lack of any cosmetic results...experience with scars would be very helpful

Thanks!

free skin care · Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:04 pm

Hi, and welcome to EDS!

You left Retin A off your list of options...skin does not remodel without sufficient Vit A AND Vit C. Anything else you use is a nice to have, but these 2 are required. Ideally you will have pre-treated with both for at least a month before rolling. for optimal results.

Please make sure that you read some of these articles by the professionals (which are not people on forums, lol) so that you understand how skin renewal really works before you begin.

At a minimum, please read the first one that I listed on the thread below.

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860

free skin care · Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:12 pm

I also wanted to add that you need to be VERY cautious what you put in the open wounds after your dermaroll...using something like strong CPs will make you think your face is dissolving.

Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:55 pm

Bethany, thank you for the links and info Smile

!

Btw from the pics I have seen, your skin is phenomenal

As per your advice, I should stick with the basics for now pre and post roll, Vit A and Vit C...I have the Jasons Anti-Aging Vit C serum, would that be good, or IYO should I make my own?

Also I think retin A may be a bit hard for my skin...Is there another derivative that may also be suitable for rolling, or can I get an OTC retin A that is not too rough?

Thanks!

Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:24 pm

Also, just finished the Environ pdf...seems Vit A and C are more important in scar repair than other substances (CPs etc)

I will be looking more into this...they dont really say what form of Vit A cream they used, and if it can be applied at the same time as Vit C etc...

Thoughts?

free skin care · Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:57 pm

crzyakta wrote:

Also, just finished the Environ pdf...seems Vit A and C are more important in scar repair than other substances (CPs etc)

I will be looking more into this...they dont really say what form of Vit A cream they used, and if it can be applied at the same time as Vit C etc...

Thoughts?

Tazorac or Retin A, or any prescription vitamin A acid, differin etc are fine to use. If you can't tolerate it, you may need a lower dose, or to use every 2nd day, or to add moisturizer with it at first. I think even sensitive skin can handle it, you just need to start slow.

Vitamin C and A should not be applied at the same time. Vitamin A can be made less effective, and the two acids can be very irritating too. Plus, C should be used in the day for its antioxidant properties, and A at night, since it is deactivated by sunlight and causes photosensitivity.

free skin care · Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:09 pm

crzyakta wrote:

Also, just finished the Environ pdf...seems Vit A and C are more important in scar repair than other substances (CPs etc)

I will be looking more into this...they dont really say what form of Vit A cream they used, and if it can be applied at the same time as Vit C etc...

Thoughts?

Yep...You are a smart cookie! Thanks for actually reading the darn articles! And thanks for the compliment too! Smile

So back to rolling...unless you have high levels of A and C in your cells, nothing else you apply to your skin will even matter. The product that they actually apply after rolling is Environ EssentiA...unfortunately, the only places to buy it online are NOT approved by Environ.

If you are already using Retin A or another form of Vit A regularly, I would use that after you roll, and then Vit C the next morning. You will want to keep doing this.

If you are not using Retin A, another option you might want to consider is using the A Boost and the C Boost from 302 skincare (or the new calmskin.com). You can mix both of those together and apply at the same time because they are both oil soluble. They will also cause less peeling than Retin A. BTW, if you are NOT using any acids on your skin (for at least the last 2 weeks), you might also want to add the 302 Serum...it has definitely helped eliminate acne scars on it's own, and you can mix it right in initially with the A and C.

Check out Boski's acne scars before and after pics on Page 1 of this thread:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=28855

Keep in mind that inflammation is a pivotal part of the healing process, and is required to release all the wound healing enzymes, etc. I would personally recommend that you NOT use your LED for a few days. Some people do, but LEDs reduce inflammation. I prefer to wait until after 4 days have passed before doing so. If you want to read about the importance of inflammation, you can read this article:

Minimally Invasive Percutaneous Collagen Induction
Desmond Fernandes, MB, BCh, FRCS(Edin)
This article provides a great overview of how collagen is developed with the micro needling process, as well as the rolling protocol, etc. (pics included)
http://www.dermogenesis.com/roll-cit/Clinics_of_N_Am_2005.pdf

Next we need to talk about your rolling schedule, but let me know what you decide to do with your topicals.

Also feel free to PM me and I can give you some additional rolling tips.

free skin care · Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:14 pm

crzyakta wrote:

I have the Jasons Anti-Aging Vit C serum, would that be good, or IYO should I make my own?

For use after rolling, this is better than making your own because it is oil soluble...Fernandes caustions to not put the acidic version on after after rolling, but people do it anyway.

You could also mix this with the A Boost or the 302 Serum.

Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:38 pm

Bethany, you are great...thanks for the resources and tips, I see that I still have alot more reading to do!

I have dealt with the scarring for about 12 years...though it got more noticeable (to me at least) after accutane when I was 17...Since then I havent done much for the scarring, only for the acne, which includes diet changes, and use of a topical that has zinc oxide, sulfur, and a little menthol...keeps my skin pretty clear

As for the scarring, I MUST take care of it now...I had used alpha arbutin for one month on my face last year and it caused me to get more scarring, spontaneous scarring in fact Sad

!

Apparently Arbutin is closely related to hydroquinone..I had this issue before, about 2.5 years ago with plain old HQ 4% which I didnt know at the time could do this, it took like 3 months for my skin to normalize from feeling like plastic and having spontaneous scar pop up...however I had no idea alpha arbutin is really hydroquinone mono-b-D-glucoside

Now my skin is back to normal, normal healing, normal texture and feel...some of the recent scarring even went away...but there still are some new scars :/ upsetting

So instead of just dealing with the scars, I plan on really doing something about it...its only my cheeks mostly, with a 2-3 scarred pores on my nose, and 1 or 2 on my temples...mostly scarred pores that are actually boxscars and a few ice picks...nothing too deep cept for the ice picks

Ok well here is my plan for rolling:

Mid Feb, first roll with 1.5mm...going to go medium aggressive...will plan on taking a few days off work...and will be doin C serum and possibly A Boost (2 questions here, is this an effective retin-a product and I cant seem to find a place to purchase it..any ideas?) leading up to the day...right after the roll, should I just apply an antibacterial ointment like neosporin or some kind of oil like emu? I would then start using the A boost and C serum the next day and the LEDs 2 days after (please let me know your thoughts on this)

Will roll again 5 weeks later, with either 1.5mm or 2.0mm depending on how I feel about my results and comfort with the roller...will be sticking to Vit C and A along with LEDs 4-5 times a week (5 min sessions on each side of face)

Finally I will also be purchasing a 0.5mm roller for use 3-4 times a month between major rolls to help with topicals, and plan on buying EMLA numbing cream for 0.5mm and for 1.5-2.0mm rolls...Will be going for a total of 8-10 rolls over 1 year

Any thoughts are very much so appreciated...one thing to note, my skin heals well with the right environment...moisture, less stress, enough water intake, but is still overall sensitive; I will also be starting graduate school for my masters next week, so it will be a factor along with my full time job on downtime...

Thanks again Bethany, you rock!

free skin care · Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:04 am

Hey...it's 3am and I have to get back up in a few hours, sigh. I will PM you tomorrow evening with some tips.

A question for you before I send those tips...are you using any kind of Vit A product now?

If so, what is the name and how frequently are you using it?

Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:35 am

Hey,

No Vit A topical at all...on aside, I do eat organic hearty carrots daily...diet-wise should have enough

lol but I doubt thats what you were asking about

free skin care · Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:29 pm

Hi crzyakta,

I'm boski....Bethany mentioned my experience with 302 and I think this line has the greatest potential to help with acne scarring. I've tried CPs and acids as well as many other scar treatments and nothing has reduced scarring as well as 302 for me. I would recommend for you to start the 302 regimen first to get your skin in better shape before your February 1.5 mm roll. You can use 302 before, during and after dermarolling and with LEDs.

My story is all detailed in the 302 thread on the Products Review forum. I suffered from moderate acne scarring for decades and have gotten it to the point where you can barely make them out. I don't have to cover them with makeup anymore. This is after 4 years of being on 302 though. But you should see some improvement after 6 months, especially if you use dermarolling, LEDs. I would highly recommend getting an ultrasound unit too. You can order the 302 products from one of our forum members, who is an 302 esthetician (Nemo!AtTheDisco, or Daniel). But I recommend you read the thread, or skim over it first, so you get an idea of how 302 works and the type of regimen best for you. Then you can post on there for more specifics about 302 if you are interested.

free skin care · Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:54 pm

Hey Cryzakta! I have the same problem as you! Noticed scarring after accutane use about 3-4 years ago and have been living with it, but really don't want to. I have the same thing - mild scarring on my cheeks - about 2-3 little icepicks 1 wider one indented but not deep (box car?) and then another line and box car on my other cheek. Can you please fill me in on what your exact regimen will be and where to get this dermaroller? Even our skin type sounds about the same. Oh and what is this zinc, sulphur cream you are using? do you use sunscreen on a daily basis by any chance?

Bethany, just want to say thanks for sharing the info - you are so kind and well informed!! Beware of being hounded by questions from me :P

Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:32 pm

Hey amonavis, thanks for the info, I will be separated the Vit A and Vit C applications by at least 6 hours...but was wondering if it is recommended to watch my face before each application...and if so, will plain water and pat dry with a towel suffice?

As for which form of Vit A to use, I am leaning towards 302's A Boost, have been reading about it, and read through Boski's posts...Retin A maybe down the line once my skin gets used to A Boost (if it does!)

Boski, first off you look GREAT for your age...jeez, your skin looks like that of a 25 year old...I would really like to get on CPs as I have read alot of the literature...but dont know how effective they are besides anecdotal reports, which at this point seems 50/50 positive to negative...maybe after I see results I may switch over to a Vit A/mild CP reg after like 4-5 months on vit A and C

I will be pretty aggressive with the dermarolling and LEDs...along with topical consistency, diet is a no brainer, but will possibly add some Vit C supplementation

One sort of good thing about my skin...its sensitive, not only in a bad way but in a good way as well...it responds quick to topicals and treatments (also quickly to damaging topicals and poor treatment Sad

)

sweetp, I use this ointment from demodexsolutions, its their "ZZ" cream...it saved my skin from breakouts...which although were calmer with my diet and exercise still flared up at times...I try to keep my body's pH at around 6.8-7.2...remaining alkaline and thinking positive really helps reduce chances of breakouts

free skin care · Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:48 am

bethany wrote:

Hey...it's 3am and I have to get back up in a few hours, sigh. I will PM you tomorrow evening with some tips.

Ugh...and tonight it is now 2:45am. This job is killing me. But I AM gainfully employed, so I need to NOT complain!

I would personally go with Boski's advice...especially since you are not using Retin A (that was the question I was waiting for). And since you are not, I wholeheartedly think you should go that route.

And having been the CP route and experienced some very negative side effects myself, I would suggest that you give 302 a shot first.

Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:03 pm

Hey Bethany,

That is completely fine, you've helped me a great deal already Smile

I was just wondering if there are any opinions on 302's A Boost vs Retin-A micro for scar remodeling etc

For sensitive skin, would it be okay to use A Boost and lead into a stronger Vit A, or should A Boost suffice for the duration of my rolling/LED treatment?

Thanks again

free skin care · Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:51 pm

crzyakta wrote:

Hey Bethany,

That is completely fine, you've helped me a great deal already Smile

I was just wondering if there are any opinions on 302's A Boost vs Retin-A micro for scar remodeling etc

For sensitive skin, would it be okay to use A Boost and lead into a stronger Vit A, or should A Boost suffice for the duration of my rolling/LED treatment?

Thanks again

I would start out with 302, provided that you add in the 302 Serum. The one concern I do have is if alternating the topicals (A one day, C the next - the 302 protocol recommends this) is really sufficient when you are remodeling your skin. I used both the A and C every day for a week after I rolled (and a few days before too).

Keep in mind that it really does take many months for collagen to fully develop, so you should not be expecting immediate miracles. But at 4 months I noticed that my crowsfeet were GONE...some people take 7 months.

But after you finish a round or 2 of 302, then you can decide if you want to go to stronger stuff.

I am going to throw one more product out for your consideration...a Growth Factor Serum. This actually provides a growth medium for cellular rejuvenation. Once I researched this, I started using it every day - and twice a day for at least a week after I dermarolled.

The product I use is ZO Skin Health Growth Factor Serum ($195 for 1oz). But there is a more affordable option with identical ingredients....Estion Ultimate Growth Factor ($90 on sale for $60 for .5oz)

They were both developed by the same people, but the ZO product most likely has a stronger level of peptides/actives and perhaps a different delivery system. But the Estion version has great reviews on line, and Dr. Obagi (owner of ZO Skin Health) ONLY picks the tops in the field when he licenses technology to be used in his products.

Here is a link where we compared the 2:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=32144&highlight=gfs

If I were on a a budget, I would check out the one below. I will also PM you a code to an additional 20% off at that site.

http://skincarerx.com/Estion-Ultimate-Growth-Factor.html

free skin care · Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:19 pm

crzyakta - check your PM inbox.

Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:20 pm

"The product I use is ZO Skin Health Growth Factor Serum ($195 for 1oz). But there is a more affordable option with identical ingredients....Estion Ultimate Growth Factor ($90 on sale for $60 for .5oz)"

Hmm, it is a bit pricey...have you noticed any benefits from it? I will be researching these 'growth factor serums' this weekend...just do not know how I can fit in too many topicals

Also I had a question, at skinbio, they recommend separating the Vit C and the CPs by so many hours because the Vit C chelates or removes the copper from skin...now if I use a oil based Vit C serum daily, would that in the long run affect natural copper levels in the skin possibly causing more skin issues?

Also, these oil based serums..like the Jason's
Anti-Aging Vit C serum I have, do you think it may clog pores or be occlusive (I have medium to oily sensitive skin)?

Thanks all

free skin care · Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:53 am

crzyakta wrote:

"The product I use is ZO Skin Health Growth Factor Serum ($195 for 1oz). But there is a more affordable option with identical ingredients....Estion Ultimate Growth Factor ($90 on sale for $60 for .5oz)"

Hmm, it is a bit pricey...have you noticed any benefits from it? I will be researching these 'growth factor serums' this weekend...just do not know how I can fit in too many topicals

Also I had a question, at skinbio, they recommend separating the Vit C and the CPs by so many hours because the Vit C chelates or removes the copper from skin...now if I use a oil based Vit C serum daily, would that in the long run affect natural copper levels in the skin possibly causing more skin issues?

Also, these oil based serums..like the Jason's
Anti-Aging Vit C serum I have, do you think it may clog pores or be occlusive (I have medium to oily sensitive skin)?

Thanks all

I don't know if you have read all of the 302 thread yet because it is so long now. So I want to post some information here for you to help save time.

There is a distinction between acne scars and wrinkles. Acne scars are caused by excessively cross-linked fibrotic tissue. It is formed when you breakout, and the tissue tries to repair itself after the initial breakout. You have to break up this abnormal tissue AND promote collagen growth at the same time if you want to flatten out the scar. That is is the main difference between a scar and a wrinkle. I think your best chance is to incorporate the 302 serum or 302 drops into your dermarolling and for regular regimen as well. Any C or A which you can tolerate can be used with it. I would be careful with Retin A, and not use it more than twice a week, since you are sensitive. Otherwise, you will get very dry and red. The Avogen ingredient in the 302 serum and drops breaks up this cross-linked tissue. It is a small molecule (302 Daltons), which can penetrate to the dermal level. Ultrasound increases the efficacy by pushing it further and denaturing the scar tissue.

I looked at the Jason's C. It is using MAP form of C, as well as ascorbic C. MAP C is not as potent or effective as tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate. I would recommend looking for a C with tetraheyxyldecyl instead. Also, if you put that on after dermarolling, you may be very irritated from the ascorbic C.

I know you are trying to sort out what to use right now, so I want to caution you because you have sensitive skin. Putting all these on your face at one time will not be the best approach. Your skin has receptors that are responsible for prompting the changes in your skin. If you put too much on for too long, the receptors cannot handle it. Your skin will likely get even more sensitized, red, dry and irritated from all the topicals. I would be careful and go slowly, whatever you decide to try out in the end. And as Bethany said, don't expect overnight miracles. It takes months for the skin to rebuild. But treat it right, and it will eventually respond.

Here is the info about acne scarring, written by Dr Huber. The link describes how the acne scar is formed and is an older article that he wrote some years ago. The green section is from the current 302 Professional Handbook:

http://www.ellensplacesalon.com/acnescars.htm

Scars / Stretch Marks

Introduction
Prevention is easier and much less expensive than treatment to remove scars and stretch marks. Acne and pregnancy are the leading causes of unsightly marks. Neither of these negative looks will occur if only a bit of prevention is carried out.

Prevention
Pregnancy stretch marks along the lower torso and breasts occur more often with young mothers than older mothers because the skin attachment to the underlying muscle fascia is more intact. As we age, the skin gradually breaks away from the muscle. With increasing stretching of the skin during pregnancy in young mothers, tears occur rather than natural the attrition of skin/muscle connection that ‘fail’ during natural aging.

For pregnancy, prevention lies in twice daily application of Body Treatment and Face & Body Bar. Consistent use of those beginning with early pregnancy will reduce or eliminate the incidence of stretch marks. For those whose family history indicates a possibility of severe stretch marks, the use of Active Recovery: Body & Scalp Rx applied once daily (and left on) will usually succeed in reducing or eliminating the possibility.

For the face, prevention of scars during acne is a function of avoiding sunlight when taking antibiotics and retinoids. Best if you can avoid those altogether, especially benzoyl peroxide whose strong free radical activity results in very weak skin prone to scarring. The use of Face & Body Bar as a cleanser and 302 Acne Drops as a treatment (see ACNE) usually will prevent and correct the formation of scar tissue. The use of Acne Mist with its high concentration of ECGC from green tea can substitute for benzoyl peroxide in reducing bacterial effects associated with acne.

Recovery
For existing scars on the face, the use of Fraxel laser has had some success for many, but the results are not consistent enough to announce a breakthrough and the cost can be prohibitive (see Burns / Lasers for regimes).

Needling has been used in the past and for some that has had a positive effect, but often the treatment is hard to find and the results vary widely and can lead easily to infection.

Ultrasound is very effective and very safe and reasonable in cost. It works to break up the fibrotic deposit and propel compounds like Avogen™ to the location of the highly crosslinked fibrotic mass which act on those crosslinks. Ultrasound treatments can be used as part of a normal facial or when acne is present (see Procedures).

Massage and stimulation through topicals has varying success for facial scars, but usually requires more intensive work, especially as the age of the scars increases.

The use of exfoliation or dermabrasion to reduce scars is limited to the very surface. The attempt to eradicate scars through deep peeling can result, and often does, in more scarring. However, it is worthwhile to exfoliate at least once to see if the problem is merely on the surface. Continued exfoliation or continued dermabrasion can be quite counterproductive. The skin will rarely respond and the greater sun sensitivity these procedures create may add the unwanted element of pigmentation blotches to the mix.

Whether on the body or the face the scar usually needs to be addressed dermally as well as epidermally. Exfoliation or deep peels reach only the very upper levels of the problem, which often exists down into the dermis.

The use of Lightening Drops will benefit the dermis of the face (and the body) as will the Lightening: Décolleté & Hand for stretchmarks (not recommended though for the face). Every other day application is best, especially when alternated with either 302 Serum or 302 Drops (or 302 Acne Drops if acne is ongoing - see Acne). Cleanse with Face & Body Bar to complete the treatment.

The use of heat to help denature the scar and fragment it (115 deg F) is difficult to accomplish with very warm towels, and chemical agents capable of increasing the temperature of the skin are usually quite irritating. Ultrasound is quite effective in raising the temperature of the skin. The denaturing of the protein from heat may be followed by a period of exudation of that material from the skin surface, as happens following Fraxel laser treatments where the body ejects a great deal of fibrotic fragments. This ‘breakout’ period is normal and may be alleviated somewhat by the use of Acne Mist in home care.

Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:22 pm

crzyakta, I followed your trail to this forum.. Smile

wow my head is spinning from all this information..

I have allready rolled a couple times.I was using home made topical c but have switched to cp and emu about a month ago..I have icepicks, scared pores..you name it.

It looks from what I have read a topical c and topical A are essential..I cant use any harsh stuff on my skin so it looks as if the 302 c and A boost along with the serum is the way to go?? you use this stuff daily and it can all be applied together???

also I never seen anybody discuss rolling schedule..maybe it was pmed to crzyakta?? I was under the impression to roll no sooner then 6 weeks apart for each session..I use a 1.5mm roller..I also do some individual needling before each session..

what is everybody using post roll as far as anti bacterial ointments or something???

I have begun reading some more links on this and I dont know if I'll live long enough to read them all. Confused

Like I said.I have rolled twice..I am in the down time right now..I just wanna get results from my efforts..so I wanna devise the best possible plan..I did not know this forum exsisted until today..somebody from another forum was kind enough to point me in this direction..looks like a whole other level of knowledge here to be quite honest..I appreciate any help I can get to improve my chances at success..

peace Smile

Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:36 pm

bethany...are you using the 1.5mm roller?? I noticed you feel the down time between sessions should be greater then 6 weeks. acually much greater..what are your thoughts on needle size and how often this treatment should be done..

by the way..you know you have done your homework when you write a letter to a dr..who has answered thousands of questions but said none on the level of concern yours was.. Wink

free skin care · Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:46 pm

munsoned wrote:

crzyakta, I followed your trail to this forum.. Smile

wow my head is spinning from all this information..

I have allready rolled a couple times.I was using home made topical c but have switched to cp and emu about a month ago..I have icepicks, scared pores..you name it.

It looks from what I have read a topical c and topical A are essential..I cant use any harsh stuff on my skin so it looks as if the 302 c and A boost along with the serum is the way to go?? you use this stuff daily and it can all be applied together???

also I never seen anybody discuss rolling schedule..maybe it was pmed to crzyakta?? I was under the impression to roll no sooner then 6 weeks apart for each session..I use a 1.5mm roller..I also do some individual needling before each session..

what is everybody using post roll as far as anti bacterial ointments or something???

I have begun reading some more links on this and I dont know if I'll live long enough to read them all. Confused

Like I said.I have rolled twice..I am in the down time right now..I just wanna get results from my efforts..so I wanna devise the best possible plan..I did not know this forum exsisted until today..somebody from another forum was kind enough to point me in this direction..looks like a whole other level of knowledge here to be quite honest..I appreciate any help I can get to improve my chances at success..

peace Smile

Welcome to EDS. You will find tons of info about the latest skincare and gadgets from the most helpful members. I've learned quite abit from hanging around here too.

My recommendation for you also applies to anybody who has sensitive skin. If you decide to use 302 skincare (which BTW is excellent for acne skintypes), you will want to start on their regimen of 302 serum, A Boost, and C Boost. These are all nonacid and not irritating, which makes it ideal for sensitive skin types. The regimen consists of alternating 1 of these topicals per night. You don't need much either. There are reasons for this scheduling, which I won't go into detail here because there is a whole other thread about 302 in the Products Review Forum.

When you are ready to do a deep roll, I would definitely numb your face, because you want to produce pinpoint bleeding. Make sure you sterilize your roller well. After rolling, use the 302 Face/Body bar to clean off the numbing cream. You can also use the bar as a daily cleanser, it's very antibacterial and good for acne. After that, I mix the 302 serum, C Boost, A Boost together in equal parts. Dermarolling is the only time I mix the topicals together like this. Make enough for the entire face and neck. Apply post roll. I don't apply any antibacterial ointments because they can clog my pores and cause breakouts. Let your skin take a break the next night or two. You can just cleanse with a plain cleanser, the 302 F/B bar, or use water. If you are not irritated after 2 or 3 days, you can restart your daily 302 routine (alternating actives).

During the down-time of 6 weeks, you can use an 2 MHz ultrasound probe to further push down the topicals and heat up the scar tissue. The ultrasound helps break up the scar tissue when used with the 302 serum. After a couple months of this, you can advance to a higher level of C with the Lightening Drops or Calmskin C and the Plus Serum which has the most Avogen in it. Alternating the ultrasound with the LED nightly is a good idea too. There are a bunch of other threads about LEDs and ultrasound units in the Tools Forum. Use the gadgets after applying your 302 active. Do this for at least 6 months and see how you do. Take before and afters. Any improvement is permanent and cumulative. That is, it can always get better. It took me 3 years to get to the point where my scars were almost unnoticeable. I still do 1.5 mm rolling every 6 weeks or so because I'm hoping to flattened the residual scars entirely. I may reach that point this year because I'm already 85-90% improved.

BTW, I want to say that dermarolling is not something anybody should undertake without thorough preparation. If you get an infection, it could be very serious and cause disfiguration, so it's not something to be done on a whim. But IMO it's certainly cheaper and possibly safer than lasers and dermabrasion, so I weighed the risks/benefits and find it worth it for me. Bethany has collected and provided quite a bit of info about dermarolling and saved alot of people from having to do the research themselves. So, she is the dermarolling queen around here Very Happy

free skin care · Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:50 am

hi boski, would it be wise to make some starter questions now that the 302 thread where at its current stage, people are posting their results and you and the other pros may very well not following it anymore?

free skin care · Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:06 am

just spotted where to buy the 302 line, ok, i'd read that long thread from start to finish but not now. In the meantime, could you post the key information in here or direct me to the "must read" set of pages. TIA

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