Skincare tools and inflammation
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free skin care · Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:43 pm

I am 59 and have been looking after my skin with a reasonably good skin care routine (including SS) for the last 10 years or so. Before that I was a bit slap-dash. Now I am thinking of adding some tools such as an LED device, dermaroller and/or stop.

My question is if inflammation is a significant cause of skin ageing, how do we know that using these tools (and laser, IPL, etc) that work on the principle of damaging skin in different ways in order to force the skin to create collagen won't create other problems further down the line?

I am very interested in moving to the next level but am also apprehensive as up till now I have tried to minimise inflammation.

I know many of you have tried all 3 tools and wonder whether attacking skin on 3 fronts (LED, RF and wounding) is actually a good thing for it. I hope it is.

Has anyone asked this question to their dermatologist? TIA

free skin care · Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:26 pm

miss anna, that is a great question. I don't have any of the tools, but am looking into getting 1, as well. I don't think anyone knows down the line how any of them will affect the skin. I can't wait to hear everyone's thoughts on this matter.

free skin care · Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:42 pm

Miss Anna, great question. The answer is that no one really knows the effects of these "induced damage" treatments down the road - not even dermatologists (although many who provide the laer treatments will tell you otherwise). Logically, dermarollers and non-ablative lasers such as the Profractional make sense, but the skin regeneration is not governed by Mother Nature and could therefore have a somewhat negative effect over the long term. It's a risk that I'm prepared to take, however. I cannot see any reason why newly-formed collagen resulting from laser, red or amber lights, or dermarollers would behave differently from the collagen produced by long-term established collagen inducers such as Retin-A.

free skin care · Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:58 pm

miss anna wrote:

My question is if inflammation is a significant cause of skin ageing, how do we know that using these tools (and laser, IPL, etc) that work on the principle of damaging skin in different ways in order to force the skin to create collagen won't create other problems further down the line?

Miss Anna,

Inflammation definitely does accelerate aging, and that impacts all organs, including the skin. I did a ton of research on this maybe 6 months ago, and that is part of the reason that I do not believe in dermarolling weekly. Dr. Perricone focused on inflammation in one his first books...you may want to check it out.

What I learned is that ongoing inflammation is the most damaging...the skin can handle acute inflammation for short spurts, but anything lasting over 2 weeks turns into chronic inflammation. And just because you cannot see the inflammation, doe not means that it does not exist!

However, tools may not be your biggest concern from the skin inflammation standpoint...AHAs compromise the skin barrier, and retinoids increase your UV sensitivity, both of which result in inflammation.

The inflammation caused by skincare tools is different from the inflammation mentioned above, but it certainly still inflammation. However, inflammation is not all bad...it is a critical part of wound healing and collagen generation, as with dermarolling. The research I was able to locate did not focus on tools, but I'll do some more research and see if anything new has popped up.

Also, from a tools standpoint, here is a breakdown for you that may be of some help:
- LEDS actually REDUCE inflammation
- Ultrasound increases product penetration, but supposedly does not cause inflammation
- Dermarolling produces inflammation
- STOP produces inflammation, but not to the degree that dermarolling does

free skin care · Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:43 am

Bethany, thanks for the clarification between ongoing and acute inflammation.
Surprised

You're right about the AHAs etc, but I guess I thought it was very small compared to the inflammation from the tools. Also I thought that AHAs etc work only on the epidermis and don't penetrate the dermis as the tools do. Except for Retin A of course, as it's classified as a drug.

I didn't know that LEDs actually reduce inflammation. I thought LEDs worked on the principle of damaging the dermis (without damaging the epidermis)and stimulating the fibroblasts to heal the damage by creating collagen (I guess amongst other things). My knowledge is very basic and I would love to read more about it but several sites I've been to are a bit too scientific for me. They seem to be written by biochemists for other biochemists. Confused

If you can point me to any sites with more readable explanations, I'd really appreciate it.

free skin care · Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:41 am

i very much have wondered the same thing, Miss Anna...and have found in general that 'focusing' on trying to improve my skin quality has actually harmed it..including harm from led lights (that have helped others). ..so now i only focus on natural organic oils, eo's, herbal extract oils and facial exercises/massage..and leave the tools to others.

free skin care · Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:58 am

jasminerosey wrote:

i very much have wondered the same thing, Miss Anna...and have found in general that 'focusing' on trying to improve my skin quality has actually harmed it..including harm from led lights (that have helped others). ..so now i only focus on natural organic oils, eo's, herbal extract oils and facial exercises/massage..and leave the tools to others.

jasminerosey, can you explain more what you mean about "harm from the LED lights". How did these LED lights harm your skin?

The inflammation issue is very interesting. Dr. H (302) is on one side of the scale with believing in using the bare minimum of "actives", Dr. Obagi (Nu Derm/ZO) is on the other side of the scale with a full out onslaught of actives used daily. I am wondering if Dr. Yarosch is not more on target in his thoughts to alternate products - 6 weeks of using Retin A, 6 weeks of using AHA, etc., and continue alternating products in this manner.

free skin care · Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:43 am

You know, this whole issue of overstimulation of the skin is an interesting one and I don't think there will ever be a true answer until profits and marketing are taken out of the equation. One thing is for sure, however. People's skins react quite differently to various ingredients and formulations and so it is a case of finding what works best for you.

free skin care · Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:49 am

Hi. I am really interested in this issue of inflammation and degrees of artificially (as in we don't normally push the skin this much) stimulating the skin. What do you think of Dr Perricone's products? I just started to use Remergent .4% retinol and will do as Bushy and others have written about using it for 6 weeks and then taking a break. It has just been a few days and so far my skin is handling it. I also use the rest of his line but not the clarifying lotion (yet?). Is vitamin C ok to use? thanks a lot. Harriet

free skin care · Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:28 am

harriet wrote:

Hi. I am really interested in this issue of inflammation and degrees of artificially (as in we don't normally push the skin this much) stimulating the skin. What do you think of Dr Perricone's products? I just started to use Remergent .4% retinol and will do as Bushy and others have written about using it for 6 weeks and then taking a break. It has just been a few days and so far my skin is handling it. I also use the rest of his line but not the clarifying lotion (yet?). Is vitamin C ok to use? thanks a lot. Harriet

Vit C is fine to use.

I personally think Perricone's products are grossly overpriced and slickly marketed. I used to use them, and stopped after further educating myself, plus I saw VERY limited results!

While he may be "The Father of Inflammation" his products are not highly respected in the industry....I would really recommend skipping those.

free skin care · Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:08 pm

Rileygirl,

I can't say whether or not what happened to my skin from using an led (lightstim) was from inflammation or not...

but i know it 'shocked' my face in some way ..and i had some devastating effects....

including brown spots near my mouth area on my right jaw (which I've read...on one of the led forums here... another woman had also gotten from using an led device)..and a strange patch of lined skin on my cheek area.

.but most significantly...i had pulled a tooth 1&1/2 years ago and hadn't done anything to fill the area..(since i was making up my mind about doing other dental work)..and the skin had been plump around that area of my face all that time...but after using the led on the 4th straight day..my face was 'indented' in that area...and has remained so...which is what really scares me about the device...

all the above happened immediately after using the device for the 4th straight day(per manufacturers instructions..2-3 minutes an area)...

I should have realized something was wrong ..for me..in that after the 3rd day i was dreading using the device..(i thought it was the emfs so close to my brain)...but was foolishly thinking that beauty was worth the discomfort...but could only use it a short while without stopping..taking a break.. and then continuing treatment

(everything else in my very natural skin care routine ..and in my life style/diet was the same during this period)

I have since read about how ANY color light may be rejuvenating/healing for one person..but shocking/debilitating for another...(the same being true for micro-currents)

i want to cross post this info on other threads as well... since i feel its important for people considering leds..and how often to use them. (i later spoke to Rita from Prolight who said i ought to have been using it once a week..to allow the collagen time to regenerate itself from the treatment..and thta that cycle could not be forced)

free skin care · Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:32 pm

There's controversy over vitamin C..as with most things....

some people tolerate it fine..for others it is always irritating and inflammatory..

and for others.. it depends on what percentage..what kind...and what else is added to ...the vitamin c serum.

you might want to take a look at smartskin/forum.com....they have a thread specifically for vit. C use..and also interesting questions and answers about vit. C in their anti-aging thread.

the doctor whose forum this is advocates using vit.C in cycles...for a 6-8 week period..then stopping for a few weeks to a few months, then beginning the cycle again.

a study indicating that.. while vit.C does stimulate collagen growth ..it also breaks down elastin..was brought up in the anti-aging thread on that forum...and the doctor indicated that... while there wasn't yet enough proof of that to be considered true..tby using this cyclical approach...elastin could be rebuild during the 'downtime' from the vit.C

free skin care · Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:45 pm

more regarding leds..

i don't mean to indicate that everyone will have debilitating effects from using leds..or using them every day..as quite a few people on this forum are getting excellent results from these devices..(some using them every day)..

i just mean to indicate that these devices can be powerfully debilitating as well as regenerating... depending on the person and their needs..and not to assume that a tool is going to be helpful... because it was for someone else.

free skin care · Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:28 pm

Repeated injury to the same spot is not a good idea. I don't think it matters whether the injury is from the sun or from self-inflicted skincare treatments. It can result in permanent cell damage, e.g. cancer.

free skin care · Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:51 pm

Thanks for getting back to me, jasminerosey. I am sorry to hear of your troubles with the LED. I actually have just started to look into the different LED's, so can I ask you which LED you used that caused this problem for you?

free skin care · Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:07 am

jasminerosey wrote:

a study indicating that.. while vit.C does stimulate collagen growth ..it also breaks down elastin..was brought up in the anti-aging thread on that forum...and the doctor indicated that... while there wasn't yet enough proof of that to be considered true..tby using this cyclical approach...elastin could be rebuild during the 'downtime' from the vit.C

Well, that's interesting. I sure hope this doesn't prove to be true. I don't use vit C in my eye area, where I am trying to regenerate my elastin fibres, and I likely won't until I've done a little more research on this. At the moment, nothing appears to be helping my undereye area.

free skin care · Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:46 am

Antonia wrote:

jasminerosey wrote:

a study indicating that.. while vit.C does stimulate collagen growth ..it also breaks down elastin..was brought up in the anti-aging thread on that forum...and the doctor indicated that... while there wasn't yet enough proof of that to be considered true..tby using this cyclical approach...elastin could be rebuild during the 'downtime' from the vit.C

Well, that's interesting. I sure hope this doesn't prove to be true. I don't use vit C in my eye area, where I am trying to regenerate my elastin fibres, and I likely won't until I've done a little more research on this. At the moment, nothing appears to be helping my undereye area.

Actually if you do a thourough search for clinical studies about Vit C and elastin there does appear to be enough info that show that Vit C does break down elastin...it has been a few months but I do remember finding some studies that backed this info up....that is the main reason that I no longer use Vit C...there are so many things that can help re-generate collagen...but when it comes to re-generating elastin that is much harder...so don't want to use anything that could possibly break it down in the first place.

free skin care · Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:08 am

Thank you Lisa. I'm assuming that this is just topical vitamin C. Whodathunkit? I'll be looking into this for sure. Does it apply to Ester-C I wonder?

free skin care · Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:44 am

lisacollins00 wrote:

Antonia wrote:

jasminerosey wrote:

a study indicating that.. while vit.C does stimulate collagen growth ..it also breaks down elastin..was brought up in the anti-aging thread on that forum...and the doctor indicated that... while there wasn't yet enough proof of that to be considered true..tby using this cyclical approach...elastin could be rebuild during the 'downtime' from the vit.C

Well, that's interesting. I sure hope this doesn't prove to be true. I don't use vit C in my eye area, where I am trying to regenerate my elastin fibres, and I likely won't until I've done a little more research on this. At the moment, nothing appears to be helping my undereye area.

Actually if you do a thourough search for clinical studies about Vit C and elastin there does appear to be enough info that show that Vit C does break down elastin...it has been a few months but I do remember finding some studies that backed this info up....that is the main reason that I no longer use Vit C...there are so many things that can help re-generate collagen...but when it comes to re-generating elastin that is much harder...so don't want to use anything that could possibly break it down in the first place.

I remember hearing this, as well. From what I recall, I thought it was only 1 study, but my memory is definitely not good anymore! Lisa, can you provide any studies that you have come across on this matter?

Septembergirl, do you have any studies on this subject? Very Happy

free skin care · Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:46 pm

So there are several actives and tools that work on collagen regeneration and there is a lot of research to back it up.

Which tools or actives are best to use to improve elastin in the skin? Is there any independent research on this?

I thought from reading the dermarolling thread that it improved both. I am a bit scared to do dermarolling though after seeing Bethany's 'cleaned up' pictures. Vague memories of some horror movies!!

free skin care · Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:18 pm

The Vit C elastin issue was discussed in Yarosh's book, and he said that the research was still not clear. If there is something newer, I would love to see it.

Keep in mind that Retin A has been consistently proven to regenertate elastin, and Relastin has studies to that effect as well.

free skin care · Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:53 am

rileygirl wrote:

lisacollins00 wrote:

Antonia wrote:

jasminerosey wrote:

a study indicating that.. while vit.C does stimulate collagen growth ..it also breaks down elastin..was brought up in the anti-aging thread on that forum...and the doctor indicated that... while there wasn't yet enough proof of that to be considered true..tby using this cyclical approach...elastin could be rebuild during the 'downtime' from the vit.C

Well, that's interesting. I sure hope this doesn't prove to be true. I don't use vit C in my eye area, where I am trying to regenerate my elastin fibres, and I likely won't until I've done a little more research on this. At the moment, nothing appears to be helping my undereye area.

Actually if you do a thourough search for clinical studies about Vit C and elastin there does appear to be enough info that show that Vit C does break down elastin...it has been a few months but I do remember finding some studies that backed this info up....that is the main reason that I no longer use Vit C...there are so many things that can help re-generate collagen...but when it comes to re-generating elastin that is much harder...so don't want to use anything that could possibly break it down in the first place.

I remember hearing this, as well. From what I recall, I thought it was only 1 study, but my memory is definitely not good anymore! Lisa, can you provide any studies that you have come across on this matter?

Septembergirl, do you have any studies on this subject? Very Happy

Hi!
Last Autumn Professor in Dermatology, Dr Leslie Baumann and colleague, published this newsletter with a mini review of 13 antioxidants, based on several scientific studies (I have been posting this link in another thread, as well).

http://www.skintherapyletter.com/2008/13.7/2.html

It leaves no doubt that vitamin C is the King (or Queen) of topical antioxidants. It's the only topically applied antioxidant that is actually capable of treating wrinkles to some extent. All the other antioxidants, like lycopene, vit E, idebenone etc can only prevent signs of aging, according to the studies.

It does say in the article that vitamin C "may reduce production of elastin by an unknown mechanism". However, as far as I can see, only one of the studies that are listed at the bottom of the article, addresses the possible depletion of elastin from the use of vitamin C serum.

Most importantly, Dr Baumann highly recommends a vitamin C serum (in particular, SkinCeuticals CE Ferulic) in the AM and a retinoid cream PM. She would never have done that if she was worried about elastin loss.

Also, I don't think it's easier to build collagen than elastin by using topicals. As Bethany pointed out, Retin-A is shown in studies to be able to regenerate elastin, as well as boosting collagen production. No other topical, except from vitamin C serum, is scientifically proven to have any impact on neither collagen nor elastin. The Relastin products do hold some promise for stimulating elastin and might be worth a try!

Smile

free skin care · Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:03 am

Thank you, Septembergirl! I knew you would have something!

free skin care · Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:17 am

rileygirl wrote:

Thank you, Septembergirl! I knew you would have something!

Thank you for having some faith in me, rileygirl. Very Happy

free skin care · Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:33 pm

Bethany. thanks for the feedback about Dr. Perricone products. they were on the TSC and they do such great sales pitches. of course the Perricone sales rep had great skin! and of course she uses his products. I think I'll try some vitamin C. am just reading through some of the topics to decide which one to try. in keeping with the inflammation theme, I want to find one that is gentle. Harriet

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