what do you think of a Pre-nup?
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Fri May 01, 2009 9:41 pm

Hello Ladies,

I’m quite curious what you think of the “Pre-Nup”s (pre-nuptial agreements) ?

My boyfriend is a doctor and I’m a law-student. He’s in early 30’s and I am in late 20’s. We’ve been together for about little less than 2 years. We're doing quite well. We are going to move in together next month and he wants a pre-nup. According to him, his intention is only about protecting his practice. At first, I didn’t mind signing it as I thought if that’s what he wants or how he feels comfortable, I would do it for him. I don’t need any material thing from him anyways.

I told this to my girlfriend and my Dad. I started thinking more about this…here’s what they say:
My Dad (who is a successful businessman) said “if a man needs to protect himself and to insurance his ‘safety’ ‘in a relationship’, it’s really difficult for him to trust you for now and in the future.”
My girlfriend said: “It’s okay to sign it but you must make sure that the contract is protecting yourself well too.” (Honestly, I thought about the add-in items into the agreement but I gave up. I think it’s too tiring and it’s not my ‘style’”.)

My boyfriend did say he will be fair on the agreement and said: “when we are married, I don’t mind sharing my personal asset at all. The pre-nup is just to protect my business. It’s a business agreement anyways…”

Please, tell me what you think Smile

free skin care · Fri May 01, 2009 10:27 pm

Interesting...

You know... he talks about protecting his practice... Is he the sole Dr? 'Cause, what if, let's say, he does something that causes a law suit. Is your home protected? I realize that mal practice insurance should cover such a thing... but what if it doesn't? What if there's another Dr. in his practice that sexually harasses a nurse or front desk person... In the state of California all Managers are held PERSONALLY responsible for not stopping said behavior (should they know)...

I don't know how I feel about such a thing. I've never been in the position to need to bother. I could see if a parent of children would want one... protecting an agreed upon amt. of $$ say should the parent die.. or get divorced... the spouse doesn't go after college funds and such. I guess I also think in the following terms. If a couple were to get a divorce. Then assets are split. A practice is a mean to the asset end. So, perhaps you would get the "house", and he keeps his practice. Basically a 50-50 split of all asset value. But what's to say you don't make more??? It does seem crazy to start splitting things up now. huh?

You could always go with the "we leave what we came with, and we split what we acquired together." However, one might need to realize that a practice is built with long hours. Hours not spent with a spouse.(That's a contribution to the business)Especially, if say you're home with children all the time. There are so many variables.

In the end, you need to follow your heart. Good luck!

Sat May 02, 2009 12:19 am

Thanks,ClaudiaFE。
No, he's sole. His company is well protected and himself or his family has no liability. He has no parents or inheritances, etc. He just thought that the practice is what he worked hard for...I think it's fair. My mind totally agrees with him but my feeling has changed after talking to my Dad today.

free skin care · Sat May 02, 2009 6:20 am

Honestly, I personally don't think it has anything to do with trust. Money is a major reason for most divorces. And, money makes people do crazy things, things they swear they would never do. I think your BF is very wise.

free skin care · Sat May 02, 2009 7:22 am

I'm engaged. My fiance is divorced with two children from his former marriage. He is an inheritor of a huge family estate. He loves his children with all his heart. We are not getting a pre nup in order to protect his inheritance.

If he asked for one I would have very mixed feelings. For him to tell me he loves me with all of his heart and then make me sign a pre nup so I can't touch his inheritance and all of it would go to his children would be somewhat of a contradiction to me. I know this is not the same thing as your situation. However, this is how I would feel in mine.

This is a very sensitive area. You must go with your feelings and not allow people to talk you out of them. Listen to both sides and then make up your own mind.

free skin care · Sat May 02, 2009 8:04 am

Ok, my two cents, as a wife and a lawyer: If your boyfriend is willing to trust his heart to you (and only you know if that's the case), that is what matters in a romantic relationship. Since no one can read minds or the future, "trust" is really hope that your relationship will always be as good as it is now and faith in his own judgment in choosing you. The only guaranty is that life will throw things at you that you currently do not expect. One or both of you will change in unpredictable ways. You do not know to what extent you will make sacrifices to benefit your boyfriend's practice, or he will make sacrifices to further your legal career. It is completely natural for your boyfriend to want to protect what he has already earned, and to not be willing to gamble it on hope,faith and the uncertain future. That being said, your girlfriend is right - you must make sure that your legal interests are fully represented as well as those of your future children, if any. You should not gamble your future interest on hope and faith if your boyfriend is not going to do so. Whoever is preparing the pre-nup is not looking out for your interest,as you are not the client. (As a law student, you should know this.) So if you can happily separate business from your personal relationship, as your boyfriend has, treat the pre-nup like business and make sure it fully protects your interests. Don't be lazy; this is important and will keep the two of you on an equal footing.

free skin care · Sat May 02, 2009 8:30 am

I'd have a lawyer review the pre-nup first.

I know pre-nups are very unromantic but so is splitting your hard work, effort,family heirlooms etc if things go amiss.

I would hope a man I'd get involved with would NOT want to do this - it would hurt, I'm sure. But the practical side has to come into play. Marriage is a contract - it's not all about emotion and passion. It is about trust and it is also an financial bonding.

If there are children involved I would want mine protected. Without a prenup (your practice), your children would not be protected. And let's face it, as Riley girl said when this sort of thing happens you do not know what kind of things come out of someone.

Actually I believe that pre-nups are most necessary when there are children involved and a lot of assets - family type things and big inheritances. I've seen so many people lose things in a divorce - family diamonds, art work, their a$$ Laughing

etc. Things that should rightfully go back to the family or children in the event of break-up. This, to me makes a pre-nup a practical reality.

I'd say - know the quality of the person your marrying. Know it in the very fiber of your being - or as much as possible. Watch them, examine past history - this is the best predictor of future behavior.
Follow Your Heart, your deep down gut instinct - don't deny this. It will come back to bite you later, if you don't. IF need be have a heart-to-heart with your guy. Come to a resolution that feels right to both of you.

Good luck - Sis

Sat May 02, 2009 11:39 am

Thanks, everyone Smile

Pre-nup is a wise thing to do to protect someone’s tangible asset. The fear I have is that he’s asking me to move to Halifax with him, for him, next month. I will have to give up school for a little while and start a brand new page there. I moved to Vancouver by myself 10 years ago. Vancouver is my home…

He loves family but almost all of his family members are gone. He loves children. (We never had children.) I’m afraid that one day he would do whatever it takes to take the children away from me (whether is because of his “change” or my “change”), after I sacrifice myself for taking care of the children and family. Not that I’m not confident with my own ability & wealth ($$$$) in the future but I do see myself love the family more than a job…

Pre-nup is a smart thing to do to prevent future “change” but also suggests both parties to think hard about what protect themselves well from the other party in their future joint adventure. Although I grew up in a business family and started law school, I still always live with my dreams...

To be honest, now I’m hesitated to move with him.

free skin care · Sun May 03, 2009 12:03 pm

Please, please don't sign anything until you have a good lawyer--YOUR lawyer, not his--look it over for fairness. You are going to be giving up a lot if you go through with this marriage--it sounds like you will be putting school on hold at least for a while and possibly for a long while if you start a family. It sounds like the pre-nup he wants you to sign lets him walk away with all the "business assets" if he wants to, although I'm sure that any "business debts" will turn out to be shared with you. The job of his lawyer is to write a pre-nup that is as unbalanced as possible in his favor. You need someone who can make sure that your interests and the potential interests of your someday-kids get adequate protection. Believe me, I teach family law and I have seen a lot of these. As long as you sign them, most courts will enforce them even if they are unfair and unbalanced.

I think pre-nups make a lot of sense in second marriages, when a partner has kids by an earlier marriage and wants to be sure that the second spouse doesn't supplant the interests of those kids. They also make sense when one partner has uniquely valuable assets they are bringing into a marriage--though generally that pre-existing property is protected anyway in the event of divorce.

The kind of pre-nups that are subject to the most abuse, though, as those where one partner is likely to have the greater earning capacity but expects the lesser earning spouse to give up or slow down their career to make a nice home and family. Until, of course, some years down the road, when they have a mid life crisis and meet a shiny new partner that they want to trade their old partner in for and scram with all the assets. Those are the kind of pre-nups to beware of.

Only by having a lawyer that you hire examine it closely can you tell if this one is unfair. If it is, you have two options. One: have your lawyer draft a counter proposal and ultimately work out a compromise that protects both of your interests. Two: tell him that you won't sign and that if the pre-nup means more to him than you do, the relationship isn't what you thought it is. (And, of course, there is also option three, which is to sign it knowing that down the road you will probably end up older, wiser, and penniless.)

free skin care · Sun May 03, 2009 9:22 pm

Option 3 is the obvious non-option.

Sounds like if you love him and believe it's worth it: Get a lawyer for you. If you are moving for him you are making huge sacrifices - all the more reason for your own lawyer. If he doesn't like it and wants to maintain his original pre-nup - that means the pre-nup is more important than you, stay in Vancouver. And tell him to have a nice life. Because you will!

free skin care · Mon May 04, 2009 6:54 am

livingvan wrote:

Thanks, everyone Smile

Pre-nup is a wise thing to do to protect someone’s tangible asset. The fear I have is that he’s asking me to move to Halifax with him, for him, next month. I will have to give up school for a little while and start a brand new page there. I moved to Vancouver by myself 10 years ago. Vancouver is my home…

He loves family but almost all of his family members are gone. He loves children. (We never had children.) I’m afraid that one day he would do whatever it takes to take the children away from me (whether is because of his “change” or my “change”), after I sacrifice myself for taking care of the children and family. Not that I’m not confident with my own ability & wealth ($$$$) in the future but I do see myself love the family more than a job…

Pre-nup is a smart thing to do to prevent future “change” but also suggests both parties to think hard about what protect themselves well from the other party in their future joint adventure. Although I grew up in a business family and started law school, I still always live with my dreams...

To be honest, now I’m hesitated to move with him.

I'm a little worried about you - it sounds like you would be happier with a more traditional guy who loves you enough to forgo the pre-nup. It also sounds like your fiance doesn't "get" it - if HE wants to separate financial interests from the relationship, he needs to compensate YOU financially in a major way for any sacrifice you make for the relationship (including moving, postponing school, or staying home with children). In other words, he can't safeguard HIS assets but expect you to take all the risk. As for your concerns about future child custody issues, you should ask a family law specialist whether this is a subject that can be covered by a pre-nup; if so, you could ask him to agree never to contest custody. Let's see how eager he is to waive HIS rights. Bad Grin

free skin care · Mon May 04, 2009 11:24 am

Just a thought, but try to imagine your partner's reaction if you had been the one to present him with a pre-nup, drawn up by your lawyer, requesting his signature on a document he or his legal advisers had had no input on?

I realise men (sometimes even with the best intentions) often just don't think and can't conceive of the idea that a woman could possibly have any assets or interests that need to be legally protected... which is kind of the point really.

Tue May 05, 2009 2:53 pm

Hi tessera,
I once asked him if he could put "agree never to contest custody"on the paper...He said he would never do that.
In fact, I'm not sure if the law allows this clause. But now it's too early to say as I never did any research about it...
It was a great idea though ...haha

thx.

tessera wrote:

I'm a little worried about you - it sounds like you would be happier with a more traditional guy who loves you enough to forgo the pre-nup. It also sounds like your fiance doesn't "get" it - if HE wants to separate financial interests from the relationship, he needs to compensate YOU financially in a major way for any sacrifice you make for the relationship (including moving, postponing school, or staying home with children). In other words, he can't safeguard HIS assets but expect you to take all the risk. As for your concerns about future child custody issues, you should ask a family law specialist whether this is a subject that can be covered by a pre-nup; if so, you could ask him to agree never to contest custody. Let's see how eager he is to waive HIS rights. Bad Grin

Tue May 05, 2009 3:04 pm

Thank you all for the advice Smile

.

Laugh at me if you like: the ideal love in my relationship/future marriage is that the man could give up the world for me, if I need it; because I worth it; even though I maybe never needed it.

I understand the gap in between the reality and the dream. But, come on, if I’m going to spend the rest of my life with this man, I must see “he is WILLING to do it” **at this point** Exclamation

free skin care · Tue May 05, 2009 6:31 pm

I can't laugh at you because I feel the very same way. We can certainly intellectualize the pre nup and understand its importance but the truth is this - a pre nup hurts emotionally. If my fiance wanted a pre nup I wouldn't bother to get married and in the end I wouldn't stay with him either. I too want to believe that I'm so important to him that he doesn't feel the need to protect his assets from me.

free skin care · Tue May 05, 2009 10:55 pm

leeleedeedee wrote:

I can't laugh at you because I feel the very same way. We can certainly intellectualize the pre nup and understand its importance but the truth is this - a pre nup hurts emotionally. If my fiance wanted a pre nup I wouldn't bother to get married and in the end I wouldn't stay with him either. I too want to believe that I'm so important to him that he doesn't feel the need to protect his assets from me.

I wholeheartedly agree.

free skin care · Fri May 08, 2009 9:51 am

leeleedeedee wrote:

.....If my fiance wanted a pre nup I wouldn't bother to get married and in the end I wouldn't stay with him either. I too want to believe that I'm so important to him that he doesn't feel the need to protect his assets from me.

I totally agree. Honestly I would call off the wedding. To me its like he's saying he's not 100% sure about you or your marriage to be. Do you really want to marry someone who isnt 100% sure?

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