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Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:59 am  |
Humans have three estrogens, horses something like 33, only estrone being similar. It's those other 30+ horse hormones that seem to cause the problems. Why would I put them into my body when I have another choice?
I also think what they do to horses and their babies is criminal. It's not like we don't have other choices of HRT. Let's tie up the scientists, deprive them of water and make them pee into a bag.  |
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Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:30 pm |
| SoftSkin wrote: |
Humans have three estrogens, horses something like 33, only estrone being similar. It's those other 30+ horse hormones that seem to cause the problems. Why would I put them into my body when I have another choice?
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The problem is that there is no proof the it's not the estradiol 
For example, in a case-control study of postmenopausal women, women who had higher levels of "natural" estradiol were at increased risk of stroke. Lots of research has shown that women with higher levels of "natural" estradiol are at increased risk of breask cancer. Women having higher natural levels of estradiol had higher 9-year mortality. We can't blame horses for this.
As I have said, HRT can be essential to a woman's quality of life. Some women really say that starting HRT changed their lives, that they feel so much better, etc, etc. I think that's great and a more than reasonable reason to take HRT, but it does not mean that HRT is harmless. Evidence points to the fact that it is not but in many cases the benefits seem to outweigh the risks. |
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37, light brown hair, green eyes, very fair skin. Oily T zone, broken capillaries... Current regime: Tretinoin 0.05% every night, hydroquinone 4% twice per day, lachydran every other day, random moisturizers and sunscreen |
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Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:46 am |
| But Josee isn't it really the bad metabolites of Estrogen in the absence of sufficient progesterone that are responsible for all of the cancers we read about (and not just the overall high level of estrogen itself? If so, my question would be .... why aren't more physicians recommending healthier solutions like the ones we read about, such as taking DIM, Indole 3 Carbinol, Vit. D3, Curcumin, and others rather than recommending drugs like Tamoxifen that completely block a woman's estrogen and have been shown to increase the risk of uterine cancer? While I understand there are many drugs which help to save lives, with respect to Tamoxifen aren't we really trading cancers here? Or the very least hedging our bets that we won't get uterine cancer? Thanks, Aprile |
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Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:13 am |
Being estrogen dominant, whether it's your own body's estradiol or another source, isn't a good thing. You need to balance all the hormones. Again, why would you want to take all those extra horse hormones your body doesn't need or use when there are other alternatives?
I am a bit curious as to why they picked horses though. Would other animals have fewer estrogens? Why not pigs, cows, chimpanzees? I'm not advocating using animals because it's cruel punishment and totally unnecessary. |
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Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:47 pm |
Josee, I have a couple issues that I would really appreciate getting your thoughts on, but first...
Wanted to say that the link I pointed out that someone else posted a few pages ago has some great basic info - and explains the *terms* - so that we are all speaking roughly the same language on this topic. It gets confusing when we keep back tracking...thanks.
Ok Josee, my experience as a perimenopausal woman was to throw up my hands after reading so much conflicting data from various doctors/book authors/supplement sellers/conventional medicine/the media, etc.
Finally, I found the North American Menopause Society and their commentary seems to be well researched, independent and reliable. Do you have an opinion on this organization?
Also, my doctor has given me prescriptions for Prometrium capsules and the Vivelle Dot patch. I won't ask you to second guess her decision because obviously, she has the file on me, but do you have any thoughts on these two forms of HRT?
Also, with respect to testing, I have also read that saliva testing is worthless and blood testing is dubious, so what about urine testing for hormones, in the same manner that cortisol is tested?
Thank you so much, BF |
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Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:16 pm |
| aprile wrote: |
| But Josee isn't it really the bad metabolites of Estrogen in the absence of sufficient progesterone that are responsible for all of the cancers we read about (and not just the overall high level of estrogen itself? |
No. Not all tissues have progesterone and estrogen receptors and not every effect of estrogen is dependent of progesterone.
The reason that we often talk about "you have to make sure that you don't have unopposed estrogen" is because there is a very well established link between unopposed estrogens and endometrial cancer. But in relationship with other tissues, either there is no relationship with progesterone or the relationship is unknown. For eg. if you have an E+ breast cancer, not matter how much progesterone you give, the cancer will still grow.
For example in a BMJ study of "natural" estradioal patch and stroke, there was an increase of stroke whether progesterone was used or not because in stroke it's not like in utero.
| aprile wrote: |
| If so, my question would be .... why aren't more physicians recommending healthier solutions like the ones we read about, such as taking DIM, Indole 3 Carbinol, Vit. D3, Curcumin, and others rather than recommending drugs like Tamoxifen that completely block a woman's estrogen and have been shown to increase the risk of uterine cancer? While I understand there are many drugs which help to save lives, with respect to Tamoxifen aren't we really trading cancers here? Or the very least hedging our bets that we won't get uterine cancer? Thanks, Aprile |
Ok the first thing is that nowadays instead of using tamoxifen we tend to use aromatase inhibitors.
Now the second thing is that despite de estrogen agonist effects in utero of tamoxifen, it still provides better survival and less recurrence rate than placebo. Personally, I do not know of any study involving Vitamin D, Curcumin or the like that provides the same survival rate and recurrence-free period as tamoxifen so I think I would be doing my patients a disservice if I did not offer it. Breast cancer (E+ ones) “feed” on estrogen so it seems more than reasonable to give an endocrine disruptor. However, as always women are able to choose their treatment and decide what they want to take or not.
The other thing is that, believe it or not, most people do not want to do the “healthy way”. I, for one, will be the first one to tell my patients to go do physical activity and lose weight before starting them on and diabetes meds. I tell them of the studies that say that you can cut your risk of diabetes by 40-78% by being in adequate weight, eating well, and doing 150 minutes of exercise per week. However, most of my patients are overweight. And so on. Pills, whether natural, vitamins, or big pharma ones will usually be no substitute to healthy eating, healthy weight, and healthy lifestyle. |
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37, light brown hair, green eyes, very fair skin. Oily T zone, broken capillaries... Current regime: Tretinoin 0.05% every night, hydroquinone 4% twice per day, lachydran every other day, random moisturizers and sunscreen |
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Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:17 pm |
| Barefoot Girl ~ If you check out Dr. Jonathan Wright's site, he advocates the urine testing protocol. He is the physician who originated the Tri-Est formula over 25 years ago. http://www.tahomaclinic.com/bioidentical-hormones/ ~ HTH, Aprile |
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Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:39 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Finally, I found the North American Menopause Society and their commentary seems to be well researched, independent and reliable. Do you have an opinion on this organization? |
Yes I do tend to agree with their opinion on HRT.
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Also, with respect to testing, I have also read that saliva testing is worthless and blood testing is dubious, so what about urine testing for hormones, in the same manner that cortisol is tested? |
The thing is... what is the purpose of testing the hormones in menopause? What will it accomplish?
There are no "standards" of what's normal during menopause. Each woman is different. So for you having X amount of estradiol is OK but for someone else might be not.
Yes, if someone who was on HRT for some time and was OK starts having symptoms, I'm gonna check the levels just to make sure they did not suddenly drop but I would not routinely or often test a patient. Doses should be adjusted based on symptoms and not lab tests. |
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37, light brown hair, green eyes, very fair skin. Oily T zone, broken capillaries... Current regime: Tretinoin 0.05% every night, hydroquinone 4% twice per day, lachydran every other day, random moisturizers and sunscreen |
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Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:46 am |
| My doctor has suggested today that I wean myself off the Livial because I've been on it for a few years now - so I'm just going to take one tablet every other day. I asked him what his opinion was on BHRT and he said that it would appear to be as effective as HRT - however, it was not known if the side effects were any less risky. He said that clinical trials are now underway - so there will be an "official" announcement soon. "Official" is my wording not his. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:53 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
| My doctor has suggested today that I wean myself off the Livial because I've been on it for a few years now - so I'm just going to take one tablet every other day. I asked him what his opinion was on BHRT and he said that it would appear to be as effective as HRT - however, it was not known if the side effects were any less risky. He said that clinical trials are now underway - so there will be an "official" announcement soon. "Official" is my wording not his. |
There are 2 interesting BHRT trials going on:
a. Kronos Early Estrogen Prevention Study (KEEPS): http://www.keepstudy.org/
b. Early versus Late Intervention Trial with
Estradiol (ELITE): http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00114517 |
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37, light brown hair, green eyes, very fair skin. Oily T zone, broken capillaries... Current regime: Tretinoin 0.05% every night, hydroquinone 4% twice per day, lachydran every other day, random moisturizers and sunscreen |
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Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:03 am |
Josee,
While you say "we tend to use aromatase inhibitors", many doctors are still prescribing Tamoxifen to breast cancer patients. I happen to know three women in my area who are currently taking it (Long Island has high incidences of breast cancer.) Coincidentally, all three women were on the birth control bill for extended periods of time ~ well into their forties. And now at onset of peri-menopause, they all got breast cancer. So I do believe there is a link between chemicalized hormones and cancer. I understand what you are saying, but my point is you are still trading cancers. Evenwww.cancer.gov acknowledges that uterine cancer is one of the risks of Tamoxifen:
| Quote: |
| Tamoxifen (Nolvadex®) is a drug that interferes with the activity of estrogen, a female hormone. Tamoxifen has been used for more than 30 years to treat breast cancer in women and men. Tamoxifen has been used for almost 10 years to reduce the risk of breast cancer in women who are at increased risk of developing breast cancer. The known, serious side effects of tamoxifen are blood clots, strokes, uterine cancer, and cataracts. Other side effects include menopause-like symptoms such as hot flashes, vaginal dryness, joint pain, and leg cramps. |
AND THEN ....
| Quote: |
| Although tamoxifen acts against the effects of estrogen in breast tissue, it acts like estrogen in other tissue. This means that women who take tamoxifen may derive many of the beneficial effects of menopausal estrogen replacement therapy, such as a decreased risk of osteoporosis. |
As for the aromatase inhibitors you mentioned, there are a ton of side effects with their use as well. Besides the horrible menopausal side effects, there's joint and bone pain and the risk of osteoporosis, chest pain, etc.. The only thing they don't have listed on their websites is cancer. Since they are fairly new, perhaps this will pop up as an additional risk over time, who knows? So why are there no studies on natural alternatives? Heck, the pharmaceutical companies are producing fish oil in prescription now because they realized the positive benefits of it and want a piece of the pie. I believe this is the crux of the matter, that even though these drugs may have positive effects, they also pose risk to the patient. This is also why there is such frustration and mistrust of the FDA and big pharma because they do not seem to be working to protect our safety. So if I am reading this info correctly, I can take Tamoxifen and reduce my bc risk of recurrence, but it does act like estrogen in other tissues of my body. So you are really basically in the same boat. I think I'd take my chances and forego any drug and seek the assistance of a Naturopath. I don't like the options that mainstream medicine has to offer. |
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Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:50 am |
Thank you Josee for your feedback.
My gyn is a conventional medicine physician who prescribes Prometrium and a small dosage estrogen patch (Vivelle Dot) to control problematic menopausal symptoms and as a cardio protective measure due to family history.
She monitors my levels through blood testing and then tweaks the prescription...if the blood tests aren't really accurate, it makes me wonder if I have should have my urine tested for comparison purposes. ?
BF |
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Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:18 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
My gyn is a conventional medicine physician who prescribes Prometrium and a small dosage estrogen patch (Vivelle Dot).
She monitors my levels through blood testing and then tweaks the prescription...if the blood tests aren't really accurate, it makes me wonder if I have should have my urine tested for comparison purposes. ?
BF |
Those are bioidentical hormones. If you feel fine, then it doesn't matter how "accurate" the tests are. My doc takes blood but also takes my symptoms into consideration. If you feel like crap, it doesn't matter what the tests say. Too many docs today are mechanics and forget they are treating humans. |
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Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:49 pm |
| Right ~ they are bioidentical. The only problem with them is the standardized dosing. For instance, some women cannot tolerate the 100 mg dose and this causes a problem because it is not available in a lower dose like natural progesterone from a compounding pharmacy. Also, you cannot get prometrium in cream form, only capsule. From what I've read, Vivelle Dot comes in low dosing as well. Not sure it would alleviate severe menopausal symptoms, but perhaps it works well for many women. Also, I do believe most doctors are listening to women's symptoms moreso than going by blood levels. I believe they use blood levels more to see if estrone levels are elevated. I really do wonder about the urine levels and if they are more accurate. I have to add that my gyn has always been wonderful listening more to my symptoms and checking the blood to make sure my estrone levels arent' elevated. Surprisingly, he is also now recommending the pelvic sonogram as part of his protocol, as Josee mentioned. I would definitely call him a caring physician who is more of a healthcare partner than a physician who doesn't care about a patient's input. Honestly, I believe there are more and more doctors like this in the obgyn field. Aprile |
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Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:22 pm |
| aprile wrote: |
some women cannot tolerate the 100 mg dose and this causes a problem because it is not available in a lower dose like natural progesterone from a compounding pharmacy. Also, you cannot get prometrium in cream form, only capsule.
From what I've read, Vivelle Dot comes in low dosing as well. |
I tried prometrium and it was too strong, so I switched to ProGest which is a bioidentical progesterone cream you can buy at Whole Foods. You don't need a compounding pharmacy. You just use more or less depending on your symptoms, which is what you do with compounding creams.
Vivelle Dot comes in several different strengths. You could do a patch and a half of the highest dose if you needed to, but the point of the Dot is that it is much smaller than other brands. You could just switch to a different brand with a higher dose which would mean it's a bigger size. Seems to me I tried Sandoz which supposedly was the same dose but the patch was much bigger and I felt the increase in the amount of estradiol. I cut the patch in half and I was fine but I never bought that brand again. |
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Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:20 am |
Do any of you have any thoughts on menopause related hair loss. I notice that my SIL has lost a significant amount of hair since she stopped HRT - however, I'm uncomfortable raising the subject with her.
Do you think that taking BHRT would help this condition? |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:36 am |
| Kielu ~ A friend of mine was recently complaining about hair loss with the onset of menopause. I am obviously not a qualified physician to answer appropriately. However, based upon my own experience with BHRT, my own hair is just as thick now at 54 as it was at age 35 or younger. So perhaps the reason is the bio-identical hormones. But, remember not everyone experiences hormones the same way. For instance, I believe Antonia said that she started on hormones and started to lose her hair. I believe this is due to certain hormones converting into others. But Josee would certainly know more about this process than I. If your friend can find a physician who is well versed in bio-identical hormones, I believe her hair loss can certainly be corrected. According to the books I've read, it is a sign of testosterone deficiency which is quite common. Best, Aprile |
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Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:33 pm |
I've been reading this thread with great interest, even though I have no need for hormonal treatment (yet).
>Does anyone know if treatments are needed only for POST-menopause or do some need them during PERI menopause as well?
I ask as I'm going thru the peri stage right now with no symptoms to speak of. I wonder if I'll be hit with some when menopause comes. I've only noticed changes in my period in the last year or so, so my peri is recent. The longest I've gone without a period so far is 4 months. |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:43 pm |
I skipped merrily along the path as far as hormones go until 55. I never had any PMS or anything. Once I stopped my cycle at 55 then several months later it was like someone sent out an alarm because I had hot flashes and other issues. I tolerated this for a couple of months and then pulled out all the material I had one BHRT and started the journey. Once I started the BHRT my symptoms left immediately.....first dose of the cream and that was the last of the hot flashes. I am on a very low dose and the theory behind my medical team is the lowest dose to keep the systoms at bay and allow my body to continue to produce the hormones that it can. As I look back I had some symptoms, I just didn't realize it at the time. I had low energy and once on hormones I felt rejuvenated. It is smart to do your homework before you hit the wall  If you breeze through as some have....then wonderful. But if not your will know where to start. Now I am on Estroil,Progesterone, and Testosterone |
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female,"50 something" medium to thick normal skin, no wrinkles,Lightstim,Easy Eye Solutions,Green Smoothies,Ageless Secret Gold, Pico Toner,Beautiful Image |
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Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:57 pm |
| foxe wrote: |
>Does anyone know if treatments are needed only for POST-menopause or do some need them during PERI menopause as well?
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There are a lot of perimenopausal women on HRT or BHRT. There are a ton of symptoms with perimenopause (hot flashes, mood swings, etc.,etc.) where the hormone replacement may be helpful. A great forum is PowerSurge. Best one out there, and I would guess that the majority posting there are perimenopausal with bad symptoms! |
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Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:03 pm |
Wall... seemingly 10 feet in front of me... and I think I'm running!!!
My head is spinning with this thread... So much to learn...
Jeesh!
If anyone is willing to PM (or post) a list of top reads? I'd be so thankful!!!! |
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Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:55 pm |
| I have read books by Dr. Uzzi Reiss, "Natural Home Balance For Women" and Dr. John Lee's "What Your Doctor May Not Tell you About Pre Menopause". Unfortunately, I read the later first, and Dr. Lee describes many of the symptoms of pre or peri menopause as a call for progesterone. Well, opting to self diagnose myself, I went to my local health food store and purchased some otc natural progesterone. Unfortunately, I then experienced some interesting symptoms which were most definitely associated with estrogen deficiency. Had I not found a physician who prescribed BHRT, I probably would have sent myself straight into menopause because it was not progesterone that my body needed, it was estrogen. So while the books are great sources of information, you need to verify your status with the help of a physician. I would say if you don't quite feel like yourself, lack energy and zest for life, find your memory isn't as sharp, can't sleep, have mood swings, have low tolerance to cold, continue to experience water weight gain, have unexplained aches and pains, are cycling irregularly or are having hot flashes or feel hot before your monthly cycle, these are all symptoms of peri menopause. Many times, emotions are key in pre or peri menopausal symptoms, such as feelings of insecurity, indecisiveness, anxiety and depression, but many times women don't make that connection. HTH, Aprile |
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Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:57 pm |
| Dr. Jonathan Wright's website is also very interesting place to find information. |
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Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:39 pm |
Thanks Aprile... I'm working closely with my Doc too.. just like to read up!
YOu know... to drive my doc a bit insane. |
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Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:41 am |
Toby,
What form of Testosterone do you use and how does it help you?
Thanks, BF |
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