Vitamin C Stability - are we wasting our time?
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free skin care · Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:39 pm

We all know that Vitamin C is very unstable - that's why many of us choose to make our own serums so we know that at least they're fresh. However, the statement below is a little worrying:

http://www.spafinder.com/Article/245-Getting_Under_Your_Skin

"While ascorbic acid [vitamin C] in its dry form is stable, as soon as it gets wet, it starts to disintegrate," says Alexander Sepper, Ph.D., M.D., who has degrees in both oncology and dermatology and is the vice president of R&D for Bionova. "And its potency is gone within three or four days after bottling." (Dermatologists have long warned consumers that many products touting vitamin C or E are completely inactive before they even hit the shelves.)

So, are we wasting our time? I'm thinking we might be better off just using a small amount of Vitamin C powder every day and mixing it with water to apply to the face. This is the reasoning behind the Philosophy Vitamin C Powder that I used to use before I started making my own serum.

You would have to use a powder that dissolves very quickly though, such as the one from Bulk Actives.

Kassy - any thoughts??

Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:16 pm

This this might be of interest.Its called

Could This Be The Fountain Of Youth?
By: Nanci Prince

Its on another forum.Didn't know if I could post a link here?

Just google it.

free skin care · Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:32 pm

beautybee wrote:

This this might be of interest.Its called

Could This Be The Fountain Of Youth?
By: Nanci Prince

Its on another forum.Didn't know if I could post a link here?

Just google it.

http://www.pioneerthinking.com/np-vitc.html

A quote from this "article": "I find this warning about oxidized C, interesting and amusing. I allowed my mind to wonder about my morning glass of Fresh Squeezed OJ, at $6.00 per gallon, not from concentrate. How long do you think that glass of juice would have to remain out exposed to the air, and well oxidization may already occur by the time I finish the juice? I think Not…..To address experts concerns regarding stabilizing C. There is no need to stabilize fresh citrus."

This makes no sense to me; what does this have to do with oxidation of L-ascorbic acid? Or did I miss something?

free skin care · Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:28 am

Keliu, you were reading my mind with this topic.. I've read sooo much on this topic that my head is spinning. (I've got tons of questions/some answers/info to share, but for now I only have time for this.)

Know matter how much I read and research though, the common denominator for all the studies seems to be what I've been brow beating everyone with for a year; Antioxidants work best in teams, and are most stable in an oil + water formulation..

I just came across this study and it's most interesting.. The long and short is that "grapeseed oil + vitamin e oil" used together in a formulation, inhibit the formation of toxic compounds by 100%. (Don't let "hair" in the title confuse the issue, it's not the important thing, as you will see.)

Have a read;

http://www.mibellebiochemistry.com/pdfs/Antioxidants_from_grape_seeds_protect_hair_against_reactive_oxygen_species_ROS_2001.pdf

As I rush off to whip up a C, E, + G serum.. Very Happy

free skin care · Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:02 pm

All of the dermatology textbooks I've read state that L-Ascorbic Acid, when added to water, oxidizes completely within minutes.

The only hope for keeping it effective for a longer period of time is by mixing it with other antioxidants.

I can't be bothered with making an emulsion and I do not trust the shelf life of commercial products, so I make my own - L-Ascorbic Acid, distilled water - applied immediately.

BF

free skin care · Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:07 pm

I just hear that ascorbic acid could be stabilized with ferulic acid, that's Skinceutical does to their formula, is that true?

free skin care · Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:13 am

carmina wrote:

I just hear that ascorbic acid could be stabilized with ferulic acid, that's Skinceutical does to their formula, is that true?

Most of us that make our own Vitamin C serum do add Ferulic Acid and Vitamin E to the mix.

free skin care · Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:22 am

Kassy_A wrote:

As I rush off to whip up a C, E, + G serum.. Very Happy

We could just have a glass or two of Pino Noir!

Thanks for the article - oils always seem to come out on top in the anti-oxidant stakes. What about using oil soluble Vitamin C with the Grape Seed Oil? Does it have to be an oil and water mix?

Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:25 am

just a question from a novice: is the L-ascorbic acid you use as a topical also the same as the ingestible powder form?

The reason I ask is because I too am wondering if I can´t just make it daily like Barefoot girl does. I can get the powder form (that you add to water or juice)easily here- but cosmetic DIY shops are non-existent.

free skin care · Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:50 am

Kassy,

Thank you so much for sharing your DIY recipes with us. I had been making and using your vitamin C + recipe and quit because I decided it wasn't doing anything for my skin. Just recently, I was comparing some pictures of my skin now and back when I was using it and decided I need to start again. My tone of my skin was just so much better when I was using it. I'm the kind of person who needs a recipe for cooking, etc. so having you post your's is a tremendous help to me. If you come with one that includes grapeseed oil, I'd be very interested.

free skin care · Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:52 am

Well Kelui why use only vitamin C?? I agree with you that antioxidants are in bad packaging to protect the contents. So look for an airless pump style or even a tube would be good.

Look for vitamin c and as many other antioxidants as you can find. Clinique has a lot of good ones and so does MAC. The more antioxidants for your skin you use, the better.

free skin care · Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:31 pm

Keliu wrote:

Kassy_A wrote:

As I rush off to whip up a C, E, + G serum.. Very Happy

We could just have a glass or two of Pino Noir!

Thanks for the article - oils always seem to come out on top in the anti-oxidant stakes. What about using oil soluble Vitamin C with the Grape Seed Oil? Does it have to be an oil and water mix?

Now you're talkin woman.. Cheer's!...

You could definitely try something with the oil soluble (THDA) C derivative, but you would also want some H2O in there to reach the water parts of the cells..

free skin care · Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:04 pm

Skippie wrote:

Kassy,

Thank you so much for sharing your DIY recipes with us. I had been making and using your vitamin C + recipe and quit because I decided it wasn't doing anything for my skin. Just recently, I was comparing some pictures of my skin now and back when I was using it and decided I need to start again. My tone of my skin was just so much better when I was using it. I'm the kind of person who needs a recipe for cooking, etc. so having you post your's is a tremendous help to me. If you come with one that includes grapeseed oil, I'd be very interested.

Now you guys know why I always am preaching about before/after pictures.. Without them, you miss the subtle cumulative improvements..

In regards to one that includes 'grapeseed' oil, I just did one after reading the article.. I've only been using it a few days, but my skin is seeming to love it.. Here's what I did, but it's early yet, so make it at your own risk.. Laughing

(I went with what I took from the article, and threw it all into a 1oz serum bottle (it's a scant bit less volume)..

1/2 tsp of MAP (wanted to try this instead of the LAA for a change!) I believe this amount yields 10%, but 5% is the usual amount recommended for MAP.. Feel free to check because I'm not positive.)
1 tsp distilled water (to dissolve the MAP)
1 tsp of SKB
1 tsp of pure Aloe gel (from plant and zapped for 3 seconds in the microwave.)
1 tsp of Retinol 1.0 from NCN (love the ingredients in this, and it emulsifies the water/oil phase like a dream!
1 or 2 squirts of SAS antioxidant booster
1 cc of each of these oils/extracts; (grapeseed, wheat protein, avocado, coconut, white willow bark + kukiu) Melasma + freckled girls will benefit greatly from he WWB + K
1 pea sized dollop of 0.1% Retin-A gel (you can add this or leave it out, depending on your skin tolerance and/or how much time you spend outdoors. (I am rhyno hyde, and seldom go out between 11 a.m. + 4 p.m.) This little bit in a 1 oz serum, is just enough to give the vitamin A, but I don't think it's going to make anyone more sensitive.. Don't forget the sunscreen!

Dissolve the MAP in the H2o, add in the SKB, Retinol + aloe (stirring each in well), then add and stir in each of the oils/extracts one by one..

It's also a good idea (for anyone who gives this a try), to let it fully absorb in your skin before hitting the UV light.. (UV degrades both vitamins A + C, so having it absorb prior to going out helps.

I'll forwarn you all that the smell is a bit pungent, but it absorbs in nicely and gives the skin a nice little dewy glow.

ETA: Just a little tidbit I was surprised to learn recntly about antioxidants and free radicals.. Once an antioxidant attaches to and neutralizes the free radical, it is rendered useless.. I interpret this to mean that applying an antioxidant rich serum 2 or 3 times throughout the day would be most beneficial.. I have the luxury of being retired and able to do this easily, but if I weren't, I would be brown bagging a serum or two with my smoothie etc.. Laughing

free skin care · Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:23 pm

SusieQ wrote:

Well Kelui why use only vitamin C?? I agree with you that antioxidants are in bad packaging to protect the contents. So look for an airless pump style or even a tube would be good.

Look for vitamin c and as many other antioxidants as you can find. Clinique has a lot of good ones and so does MAC. The more antioxidants for your skin you use, the better.

I certainly don't just use Vitamin C - I try to use as many anti-oxidants as possible. And I wasn't actually referring to bad packaging. I was addressing the issue of making our own DYI concoctions with Vitamin C and of dealing with its unstable nature.

I think we need more discussion on whether using the oil version of Vitamin C is a better alternative.

free skin care · Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:24 pm

Flannery wrote:

just a question from a novice: is the L-ascorbic acid you use as a topical also the same as the ingestible powder form?

The reason I ask is because I too am wondering if I can´t just make it daily like Barefoot girl does. I can get the powder form (that you add to water or juice)easily here- but cosmetic DIY shops are non-existent.

No, you can't use food grade Vitamin C.

Most of us buy our L-Ascorbic Acid from the web - there are plenty of DYI cosmetic ingredients that ship internationally.

free skin care · Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:17 am

Thanks, Kassy. Your recipes are always so detailed that there isn't any problem in following them. I don't have all the ingredients, but I think I have enough of them to make a modified version. Do you think using Skinceuticals 1.0 retinol would do as well at emulsifying as Nanci's? These are the ingredients:

Aqua (Water), Cyclomethicone, Allyl Methacrylates Crosspolymer, Polysorbate 20, Retinol, BHT, Cyclopentasiloxane, Dimethicone Crosspolymer, Dimethicone, Dimethiconol, Laureth 4, Laureth 23, Hydrogenated Lecithin, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter), Capric/Caprylic Triglyceride, Ceramide 2, Ceramide 3, Phytosphingosine, Cholesterol, Hypercium Perforatum Extract, Propylene Glycol, Sodium Polyacrylate, Dimethicone PEG 7 Isostearate, Glycerin, Polyacrylamide, C13 14, Isoparaffin, Laureth 7, Bisobolol, Rosa Canina Leaf Extract, Silybum Marianum Fruit Extract, Passiflora Incarnata Flower Extract, Chamomilla Recutita Leaf Extract (Matricaria), Citric Acid, Methylisothiazolinone, Tetrasodium EDTA

I totally agree with you about pictures. I try to take some every couple of weeks, although it's very discouraging at times.

Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:16 am

Here's another article talking about Vitamin C derivatives that have the same skin benefits of ascorbic acid but without the downsides:

smartskincare(dot)com/treatments/topical/vitcderiv.html

Quote:

Vitamin C (L-ascorbic acid) is one of the relatively few topical agents whose effectiveness against wrinkles and fine lines is backed by a fair amount of reliable scientific evidence. (See our article on vitamin C.) Unfortunately, the practical use of vitamin C in skin care presents some difficulties due to its lack of stability. When exposed to air, vitamin C solution undergoes oxidation and becomes not only ineffective but also potentially harmful (oxidized vitamin C may increase the formation of free radicals).

Some skin care companies offer stabilized vitamin C products, which oxidize less rapidly. However, these products are usually very expensive (especially the ones concentrated enough to be effective) and may still be excessively oxidized by the time you use them.

Quote:

Magnesuim ascorbyl phosphate

Magnesuim ascorbyl phosphate is a water-soluble derivative of vitamin C rapidly gaining popularity in skin care. It is nonirritating and more stable than vitamin C. Most importantly, magnesuim ascorbyl phosphate appears to have the same potential as vitamin C to boost skin collagen synthesis but is effective in significantly lower concentrations. Overall, magnesuim ascorbyl phosphate appears to be a better choice than vitamin C for people with sensitive skin and those wishing to avoid any concomitant exfoliating effects. (Most vitamin C formulas are highly acidic and therefore produce exfoliation.)

Skin care products with magnesuim ascorbyl phosphate are available and their number is growing. Be careful though. Many products contain less than effective concentration and fail to boost collagen synthesis. Also, even though magnesuim ascorbyl phosphate is several times more stable than vitamin C, it still gradually degrades when exposed to light and air. Hence freshness and proper storage are important.

I've been using a product from Avalon Organics called Vitamin C Renewal Facial Cream for a while now and it uses MAP (magnesium ascorbyl phosphate). I called to see what the percentage was of the MAP and the lady said she couldn't give me an exact percentage but that the range is 4-7%. I've had good luck with the product and it works good on sensitive skin because of it's calming effects.

Kassy, I'm not sure what the usual percentage of MAP is used in most products that contain it but according to a couple different sites one said 0.1%-5% and 0.2%-3% is typical concentrations used in different products containing MAP. It looks like the recommended about is at least 3-5% though I think. So looks like the product I've been using has a fairly decent concentration of MAP.

Do you think it would be possible to add even more MAP to this particular product without causing it to liquefy?

Here are the ingredients:

Quote:

Other Ingredients: Organic Lavandula angustifolia (lavender)¹, Chamomilla rectita (chamomile)¹, camellia sinensis (white tea)² and organic arnica montana³ extracts (aqueous), organic aloe barbadensis², vegetable glycerin, magnesium ascorbyl phosphate (vitamin C), emulsifying wax, organic helianthus annuus (sunflower) oil², tromethamine stearate, glyceryl laurate, octyl palmitate, cetearyl alcohol, lipo-filling complex (saccharomyces/xylinum, black tea ferment and hydroxyethylcellulose), panthenol (pro-vitamin B5), tocopherol and tocopherol acetate (vitamin E), melatonin, lemon bioflavonoids, organic borago officinalis (borage) and linum usitatissimum (flax seed) oils², rosa canina (rose hip) oil, olive squalane, soy lecithin, camellia sinensis (green tea) extract, organic prunus amygdalus dulcis (sweet almond) oil4, allantoin, theobroma cacao (cocoa butter), glyceryl stearate, dimethicone, phenoxyethanol, ethylhexylglycerin, benzyl alcohol, organic citrus aurantium dulcis (orange) oil², and other essential oils. 100% Vegetarian Ingredients!

free skin care · Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:56 pm

Hi Kassy,

Can you explain what you meant by the info below?

You could definitely try something with the oil soluble (THDA) C derivative, but you would also want some H2O in there to reach the water parts of the cells..

Thanks, BF

free skin care · Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:43 am

I use vc products every night. Even though it is said that vc could be used in the morning as long as we apply sunscreen after it, I still feel unsafe.

free skin care · Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:46 am

I'm thinking about switching to oil soluble C, tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate. It doesnt appear to have the same issues as LAA. I would probably have to make it myself though because the only product I can find so far is by 302 and the other ingredients in the 302 product don't agree with me. Does anyone know of any other premade products with tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate ?

Regarding MAP, I had always thought it was not effective (from what I have read). Do you think the thoughts on that are changing?

free skin care · Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:29 am

Kassy_A wrote:

1 tsp of SKB

1 tsp of pure Aloe gel (from plant and zapped for 3 seconds in the microwave.)

1 tsp of Retinol 1.0 from NCN

1 or 2 squirts of SAS antioxidant booster

Kassy, thank you. I am new to DIY, so I am trying to decode what you wrote:

SKB - it is Sea Kelp Bioferment, right?
NCN - it is NCN Professional Skin Care, isn't it?

But what is SAS?

And do you mean that you squeeze Aloe from the plant yourself, and then put the extracted get into a microwave for 3 sec? Why do you need to put in in microwave?

free skin care · Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:36 am

GirlieGirl wrote:

I'm thinking about switching to oil soluble C, tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate. It doesnt appear to have the same issues as LAA. I would probably have to make it myself though because the only product I can find so far is by 302 and the other ingredients in the 302 product don't agree with me. Does anyone know of any other premade products with tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate ?

Regarding MAP, I had always thought it was not effective (from what I have read). Do you think the thoughts on that are changing?

GirlieGirl, Benev Vitamin C Cream 12 % contains Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate.

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/benev-vitamin-c-cream-12-p_8828.htm

You can also check out SkinMedica Dermal Repair Cream.

Personally, I would choose a vitamin C serum with pure l-ascorbic acid because neither Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate nor MAP are proven to have the same anti-aging benefits. I believe that is the reason why the vast majority of vitamin C serums on the market are based on l-ascorbic acid.

Even though stability often is a problem, there are a few l-ascorbic acid serums that remain clear and unoxidized for many months after opening, such as SkinMedica C Complex, CellularSkinRX C+ and SkinCeuticals Phloretin CF. They are all good, IME. Smile

free skin care · Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:15 am

ETA: SkinMedica Vitamin C Complex contains 10 % l-ascorbic acid and 5 % Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate (plus two forms of vitamin E).

free skin care · Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:39 am

Septembergirl wrote:

GirlieGirl, Benev Vitamin C Cream 12 % contains Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate.

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/benev-vitamin-c-cream-12-p_8828.htm

You can also check out SkinMedica Dermal Repair Cream.

Personally, I would choose a vitamin C serum with pure l-ascorbic acid because neither Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate nor MAP are proven to have the same anti-aging benefits. I believe that is the reason why the vast majority of vitamin C serums on the market are based on l-ascorbic acid.

Even though stability often is a problem, there are a few l-ascorbic acid serums that remain clear and unoxidized for many months after opening, such as SkinMedica C Complex, CellularSkinRX C+ and SkinCeuticals Phloretin CF. They are all good, IME. Smile

Thanks for all the product suggestions.
I agree that all research I have read does back up LAA. So would you agree that along as the serum is clear is still un-oxidized? That is what I had always thought but then some of the info I have read here has made me question that.

free skin care · Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:04 am

ella-stella: SAS is SkinActives: http://www.skinactives.com/

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