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Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:03 pm  |
Don't have a lot of time to spend on this but I did watch the video.
I'd like to see him discuss this with people like Eva Fraser who started facial exercises 30 years ago and who look amazing at 80 due to their use of Facial exercise.
Also, He didn't get the cash flow he has from being a proponent of facial exercises. His argument was disappointing and I found it very elementary.
In closing: I think Dr. Shultz could use some facial exercises. |
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Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:09 pm |
His argument is based on the nature of elastin fibers.
What is the basis for Eva Fraser's recommendations? (not familiar with her)
Your comment about cash flow is interesting. The flip side of that is this: Is the word of those who derive their income from facial exercises more trustworthy than someone who does not??
BF |
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Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:19 pm |
| He also talks about the Clarisonic. He is a little full of himself, if you ask me. |
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Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:34 pm |
He says, When you move your skin... when you stretch skin, you stretch the elastin fiber..."
Yep. That's true, and it's a good thing. If that caused damage, then my inner thighs would be saggy and wrinkly because I can do the splits, thus stretching my skin as far as it can go... Skin is skin... We see many women recover beautifully from stretching out their skin over a 9 month PG belly. Those that don't, tend to have started out heavier... or like me got to stretch out over 2 babies. Although I have twin mom friends with NOT ONE stretch mark... and hey... 9 months of slow baby stretch is A LOT more than anything you would ever do to your face...
Your UNDERWEAR are made out of dead, synthetic materials. They don't have blood flowing to them, and they are no longer of a substance that is made of REPRODUCTIVE cells. That's what cells do right???? split and reproduce? ALL CELLS! The reason we age, is because we quit doing that so effectively. So we aid it... we peel our faces manually, and chemically! Facial exercises assist with all of this turnover... The explanation of that is way to long to write here...
His bit about elastins having a numbered amt of stretches in them is the same argument that your heart has a numbered amt. of beats in it... So don't do cardio... you'll max out your beats and die early... so no childhood sports ok??? An inappropriate use of an if then statement...
He says, if you stretch your skin you will sag... blah...blah...blah... Hmmm... I must be a complete freak of nature impervious to the laws of physics... That hasn't happened... People GET ME A CAPE!
Compares skin to a paperclip... a live thing to a dead metal thing... Apples and oranges... actually, Fruit and boxed crackers... No where NEAR the same thing!
This man is also a chronic frowner (see those 11's and also a chronic brow raiser... Watch him again.) He is proving through his own facial expression how well muscle development works. He holds himself in an expression that is not attractive. But he could smooth that out if he'd do about 5 different exercise. His forehead hasn't sagged, he's worked his muscles almost into a frenzy up there... all in one direction.
His lips are completely atrophied to something that I would expect from a smoker. Now, even those that don't like facial exercises 'cause they don't like the results will tell you that they over developed their lips to that of look like a chimp... He could work his lips to a nice happy medium, and get rid of that look.
When I took statistics in college the first thing they taught us was HOW EASY it is to manipulate data to say what you want. I was also required to take a class in Logic... If a then B...
So, you can say. All Cat are Animals. If A is a Cat then A is an Animal. But you can not then turn the statement around... If A is an Animal, then A is a Cat... Now can you? Cause it could be a dog. This man is either very poorly educated. Or Extremely educated. He either doesn't know what he's talking about ... or he thinks his viewers are very poorly educated and stupid enough to listen to him.
I really don't think this boils down to whether or not we as sellers of facial programs are more trustworthy or not... I think it boils down to using CURRENT science about skin and regeneration and applying it with at least some common since. And when we make comparisons for the sake of argument. We do so with things that are relevant... |
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Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:38 pm |
| Actually, he NOT talking about the nature of elastin fibers... He's all wrong about that... And that is why his argument is flawed. Look at it from a scientific point of view. If you continue to make conclusions based on invalid data... you get the wrong answer... The end... |
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Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:01 pm |
Methinks he needs a serious dose of facial exercises himself.
What a bunch of baloney. "Our elastin has only a finite # of stretches..." Really? And where is the science behind that? Has he studied that? Does he have empirical proof? I've certainly never seen anything in that vein. His is an opinion not a verifiable fact and I think his opinion belongs to the Dark Ages. My skin is certainly a lot more toned than prior to facial exercises.
I don't quite know why you posted this... there's nothing revelatory or remotely persuasive about his position. If someone doesn't agree with facial exercises fine, but come up with a better argument than that.
Vangirl |
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43 y/o: dark hair, blue eyes, fair skin... Holy grails are Flex Effect and Retin A. Still trying to find the perfect 'physical' sunscreen |
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Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:13 pm |
I'm still laughing about this...
Please PEOPLE... DO NOT, I repeat.. DO NOT compare you facial skin, muscles, tissue to something else that it's closest too... say, the rest of your skin, muscles, t)issues...
By all means... Compare it to your underwear, and paperclips! (Hope everyone gets their panties at a very high end store! God only knows what happens to a face that has fibers you might find at Walmart! |
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Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:54 am |
Now Im confused.
This is like LEDs. I'll stop my facial exercise for now. |
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23yr old Asian with combination skin prone to clogged pores. hyperpigmentation from pimples. uneven skintone, scars |
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Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:12 am |
I don't have a dog in the fight since I am still on the fence about embarking on a program and have no financial investment in it, but I gotta call them as I see them:
On one side: many, many dermatologists and medical professionals with extensive backgrounds in dermatology, physiology, anatomy etc. with no economic interest in facial exercise - advising against it.
On the other side: product/program sellers with little to no (?) medical or physiological training selling products that tout the benefits - with only photos to back up their claims (again, please let me know if I am wrong! I want to wrong on this!)
I don't know. Looks interesting to me. The best part is we are each free to spend our time and money as we choose.
By the way, attacking the messenger is an easy shot. Poking fun at his face is juvenile behavior. Why not present more evidence refuting his message? studies or similar?
BF |
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Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:44 am |
| I'll take the photos and the first-hand anecdotes of a serious community of users (like here and at FE d-board) over the fallacious arguments of someone who has not done research and is instead using his professional credentials as his main method of persuasion. |
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Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:10 am |
Well, I certainly haven't seen any studies on the medical establishment side that disprove the 'anecdotal' evidence of facial exercisers. He's just stating an opinion. Have you seen any studies that say "elastin fibre is finite"? Why would the face be any different from the body?
Most people here doing facial exercises know that it's against the protocol of the beauty establishment and don't really care.
Barefoot Girl, if you're on the fence about embarking on a program and need validation from the 'establishment' you're just not going to get it.
As far as I'm concerned he has as much credence as Aerin Lauder doing a video and telling me how Clinique's 3-in-1 will stop wrinkles. |
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43 y/o: dark hair, blue eyes, fair skin... Holy grails are Flex Effect and Retin A. Still trying to find the perfect 'physical' sunscreen |
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Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:19 am |
I think the trouble with this is that many experts are often taught how to treat symptoms rather than causes with our bodies and nowadays our faces, and in our society today that’s generally where a lot of our focus unfortunately goes. When it comes to medical or physiological training with our faces, areas such as facial exercises are often missed during both medical and physiological training and nowadays most professionals are wanting training in quick fixes which are money makers like fillers, botox etc and cosmetic preparations (like Retin A and retinol for example).
He does not name any specific program, so we can’t know for sure what his experience and accurate knowledge of facial exercises as a whole is. I think many times when someone says something like this, they really need to speak with people who have done them for a long time like Eva or Deb to gain a better insight into them.
I think saying facial exercises can speed up the aging process is actually a very misguided statement. Its kind of like me saying “Body exercises speed up the body aging”. There is little detail here to make such a judgment. What body exercise program is being discussed – pilates, yoga, bodybuilding, stretching, cardio etc – all very different in nature although all dealing with the body and all equally effective though producing different results for people. With regard to the body actually damaging elastin solely through facial exercises, again if there was a documented study done on it – he should share but it seems its purely opinion based and not factually based. When the body ceases to make elastin, there are numerous factors involved like diet, lifestyle etc which all have a domino affect but to blame facial exercises is a bit extreme (but this is just my personal opinion of course). I think it’s a shame as many people will really be put off from facial exercises due to his comments, which is really a pitty.
Often when experts argue against facial exercises they never define the term “facial exercises” so its open to meaning so many different meanings nowadays. For example (as many of you know) I’m a FlexEffect trainer and we do aggressive exercises and massage, but there are some programs out there that encourage the opposite of our training program and still produce results (i.e. not contracting the muscles aggressively, or merely placing fingertips on accupressure points to stimulate the facial energy centres) and many people have great results with these also. There are a huge number of programs out there in the world today (which is great).
With the cash flow comment, even when you consider that you can learn facial exercises from a book/dvd (or even a class) compared to extensive dermatology treatments, there is generally a huge difference in pricing. I think of facial exercises as empowering, as in that once you have learned them – they are yours for life. You don’t have to constantly go back to the person who trained you (unless you want to of course), and your pretty much able to integrate it into your life.
Not all dermatologists and medical professions are against facial exercises, many nowadays with extensive backgrounds are in favour of facial exercises and they are great for conditions like bells palsy and I think this is both exciting.
I really wish more Studies were done on the power of facial exercising, but there are obviously cost implications and time commitments etc needed and of course a large majority of people willing to do them, and in this day and age its hard to find the resources to get proper funding for them and also to record accurately the results.
Barefootgirl is right though – we are all free to choose to spend our time and money as we wish but I think that the medical and dermatological professions attempts to rubbish them are a little unkind at times when they try to put people off facial exercises as whole without really going into specific details or sharing their opinions under the illusion of scientific fact. I am sure its something that will change in the future! |
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FlexEffect Trainer |
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Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:43 am |
Seany, enjoyed reading your well reasoned response.
With respect to the other comments,
I am shaking my head here. The person with the opinion, who isn't selling the concept, doesn't have to prove a thing. The burden of proof lies with the promoter/seller.
As I said, we can all have fun spending our resources in whichever ways we enjoy 
From the emotion this thread has drawn, I get the feeling there must be good money to be made in promoting facial exercise. Either that - or the emotion is coming from very happy followers of the practice.
If that is the case, since there are no studies, please point me to the blogs with all the success stories with data and photos! you know...the kind of websites where nobody is trying to sell anything - that would be great!
Thanks, BF |
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Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:35 am |
| vangirl3 wrote: |
Well, I certainly haven't seen any studies on the medical establishment side that disprove the 'anecdotal' evidence of facial exercisers. He's just stating an opinion. Have you seen any studies that say "elastin fibre is finite"? Why would the face be any different from the body?
Most people here doing facial exercises know that it's against the protocol of the beauty establishment and don't really care.
Barefoot Girl, if you're on the fence about embarking on a program and need validation from the 'establishment' you're just not going to get it.
As far as I'm concerned he has as much credence as Aerin Lauder doing a video and telling me how Clinique's 3-in-1 will stop wrinkles. |
Bravo. I think we're all on the same page with this Vangirl.
BF if you're not into Facial exercise, that's cool.
Honestly you opened this up and there are some good arguments here (which is what you asked for.) Facial exercise is not taught in dermatology school or plastic surgery rotation so you're not likely to find anyone in those fields who are knowledgable enough to speak on the topic. That is, unless they actually do them themselves.
The Dr. is not a great spokesman against facial exercise anyway. All opinion-based, nothing outcome-based (which is what we see as actual doers of facial exercise.) |
_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:37 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
His argument is based on the nature of elastin fibers.
What is the basis for Eva Fraser's recommendations? (not familiar with her)
Your comment about cash flow is interesting. The flip side of that is this: Is the word of those who derive their income from facial exercises more trustworthy than someone who does not??
BF |
Eva Frasier has a website. You can see a picture of her and she tells her story. No medical degree though so you may have difficulty actually believing her. |
_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:45 am |
I'm not sure there is much money to be made in facial exercising, and therein lies the problem. Any treatment/procedure that isn't potentially profitable is unlikely to be submitted to rigorous scientific testing, which costs a lot of money. (Didn't I hear a story a few months ago about a cancer treatment that will never receive FDA approval because it involves common substances like aspirin, cannot be patented and sold for a profit, and therefore isn't worth anyone's while?)
Like most of you, I had heard all my life that touching your face is bad, that unlike the rest of the body the face is delicate, exercising it will cause wrinkles and sag, etc. Whether or not this is true, I think we have ample anecdotal evidence that doing nothing at all will result in wrinkles and sag. Therefore, especially for those of us who are already showing signs of aging (I know there are 20-year-olds doing facial exercise, but that takes a leap of faith I sure didn't have at that age!) what do we have to lose?
Note that Schultz and other practitioners seem to have no qualms about administering laser treatments, and we can only theorize about the cumulative, long-term effects of those. Rather hypocritical.
I do have to wonder why he bothered to make this video. Has facial exercise gotten so popular that it's cutting into the profits of those who offer surgery and other costly procedures? Apparently he feels threatened, but without facts to back up his fearmongering, he doesn't present much of a credible argument. |
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Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:50 am |
I do know that Dr. Obagi does facial exercises and massage .... this information is publicly available on the Zo SkinHealth website. Sorry I am new here and can't post links yet (just go to the zoskinhealth site and click "it's his birthday can you gues how old he is?" section). I know that many of the EDS members respect Dr. Obagi and his opinions as well as his products and systems; many in the medical community do as well. Not sure about this Dr Schultz though.
I did a quick search through my sources last night; I can find absolutely nothing that verifies the assertion that elastin fibers break after a certain amount of continuous usage. Doesn't appear to be a plausible statement to me. |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:56 am |
| Thanks Lacy and welcome. Nice to know about Dr.Obagi - he is a mover and a shaker and seems to say on top of things. |
_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:02 am |
This has turned nasty and personal, so I'll ask the moderator to shut it down.
Obviously, we've uncovered a sacred cow.
BF |
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Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:16 am |
Wow I didn't know that myself - off to search. 
| Lacy53 wrote: |
I do know that Dr. Obagi does facial exercises and massage .... this information is publicly available on the Zo SkinHealth website. Sorry I am new here and can't post links yet (just go to the zoskinhealth site and click "it's his birthday can you gues how old he is?" section). I know that many of the EDS members respect Dr. Obagi and his opinions as well as his products and systems; many in the medical community do as well. Not sure about this Dr Schultz though.
I did a quick search through my sources last night; I can find absolutely nothing that verifies the assertion that elastin fibers break after a certain amount of continuous usage. Doesn't appear to be a plausible statement to me. |
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FlexEffect Trainer |
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Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:21 am |
Probably a good idea. We've had this same discussion several times in the past.
Some people believe in Facial exercise and some don't. Those that use them believe based upon anecdotal evidence (that is the look of their own face) but unfortunately there isn't research funding to verify....
Others don't want to do them because of the lack of research and no degrees involved and are more comfortable with the opinion of Drs like??? forget his name.
To each his own. I doubt we will see big funding for facial exercise so if that's what validates results for anyone, I'd say they should forget it.
No big deal. It's all about your comfort zone. |
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Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:53 pm |
| Lacy53 wrote: |
I do know that Dr. Obagi does facial exercises and massage .... this information is publicly available on the Zo SkinHealth website. Sorry I am new here and can't post links yet (just go to the zoskinhealth site and click "it's his birthday can you gues how old he is?" section). I know that many of the EDS members respect Dr. Obagi and his opinions as well as his products and systems; many in the medical community do as well. Not sure about this Dr Schultz though.
I did a quick search through my sources last night; I can find absolutely nothing that verifies the assertion that elastin fibers break after a certain amount of continuous usage. Doesn't appear to be a plausible statement to me. |
I'm impressed. Dr. Obagi seriously looks at least 20 years younger than his age. |
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mustardseed
New Member
 
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 9
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Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:56 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
This has turned nasty and personal, so I'll ask the moderator to shut it down.
Obviously, we've uncovered a sacred cow.
BF |
Nasty and personal....your kidin right??? |
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mustardseed
New Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 9
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Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:58 pm |
That Doc is a fool...I throw my underwear out when it gets holes. Not when the elastic stretches out.  |
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