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Dermarolling for Product Penetration ONLY
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jjbeacham
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Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:12 pm      Reply with quote
For those of us who use rollers for product penetration only, it might help to have our own thread, rather than search through the enormous Derma Roller thread. If you are rolling your face to get inflammation, that is a completely different protocol than that used when rolling for penetration only.

I deliberately purchased a roller for the face that would not draw blood with light pressure. My needles are 0.2 mm long. However, if I were to exert more pressure, I'm sure I could get blood spots, although that is not my goal. With product penetration, a very light hand or very short needles (or both) is required.

I think it's critical to note than when rolling for product penetration only, you should roll very lightly. It should only tickle. Even rolling lightly enough to simply tickle the skin will result in a bright red face and open channels into the lower layers of the skin.

While I might roll a serum containing Vitamin A (as retinyl palmitate) into the skin with my roller, I do not roll in products that have great strength as topicals, such as LAA or Retin-A or copper peptides. Those I apply AFTER rolling, because they are going to penetrate so deeply and because they are strong even when the absorption rate is only 3-4%. Just imagine what they can do when they are 90+% absorbed. With retin-a, I wait one hour after rolling with IS Clinical ProHeal. With copper peptides, I wait one hour and roll using only hot water.

The channels into the deeper layers of the skin will still be partially open even after an hour, so you are still going to get incredible product penetration an hour after rolling. I think the rule-of-thumb for product penetration rolling should be determined by how harsh the topical is when NOT rolling, if that makes sense.

I would love to hear everyone's thoughts, as I for one am learning as I go. TIA! ~ JJ

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MaryClaire
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Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:55 pm      Reply with quote
Very happy you started this thread...I want to roll for penetration and for wrinkles. Can I use a .5 for penetration?

What have you noticed about your skin since you've started rolling?

Anything unexpected...like veins disappearing...wrinkles more shallow or less pigmentation? Smile

TIA
Mary
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Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:41 pm      Reply with quote
MaryClaire wrote:
Very happy you started this thread...I want to roll for penetration and for wrinkles. Can I use a .5 for penetration?

What have you noticed about your skin since you've started rolling?

Anything unexpected...like veins disappearing...wrinkles more shallow or less pigmentation? Smile

TIA
Mary


Hi, Mary! I'm so new at this, I have just rolled for the second time. I bought the original Dermaroller long ago and never used the thing. Recently, I read the entire dermarolling thread and of course, got very interested in rolling again, and dragged out the Dermaroller. Yes, you absolutely can use a .5mm roller for rolling the face for product penetration; just roll very lightly - you are only interested in creating channels into the skin. You are going to get results, believe me.

What I have noticed so far is immediate redness, like sunburn-red. For me, this fades in about four hours. My skin is slightly tight and it's obvious a procedure has been done. I can feel the difference in my face, and it does feel exactly like it's sunburned. As far as actual visible results, the next morning there is a freshness that is not there when just topically applying the product I use. Almost an inner glow, if that makes sense. And better tone and of course, tighter skin. I haven't concentrated on wrinkles yet, but will use the roller on them mid-week.

I don't have any pigmentation problems, but I'm well aware that they may occur. If and when they do, I plan to use the roller in conjunction with my microdermabrasion cloth to get rid of pigmentation. Not on the same day, however.

I do have a broken capillary in my right cheek and it will be interesting to see what happens with it. Thus far, no worse and perhaps just a teeny bit less visible. I drybrush twice daily and I think that's really prepared my skin for this. The broken cap is far less visible than it was when I started drybrushing.

I have one of the little 3-line rollers in 0.2mm to use around the eyes and on the upper lip. I'll report back after using that one.

My plan is to use my roller twice a week, using Vitamin A, C & E serum during one treatment and copper peptides during the next (will wait one hour to apply CP's and will roll with hot water). I'm really just feeling my way with this, and I prefer to take it slowly so that I know what works and what doesn't.

Also, after one hour, I apply what I am trying to get into the deeper layers, be it retinol, copper, Vit. C or whatever I choose for that session. Just keep in mind that you are going to get lots more effect out of your products. It's also fine to roll products in, but most people I have talked to roll with water or gentle Vit. C serum and then apply products afterward. I plan to actually roll my eye cream into the undereye area with the little 3-line roller.

I have been rolling these past two times with IS Clinical Pro-Heal Serum, and later in the day, I have applied IS Clinical's PolyVitamin Serum and Oat Beta Glucans. All of these products are capable of skin regeneration and restructuring, which is what I'm after.

Very Happy ~ JJ

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MaryClaire
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Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:37 pm      Reply with quote
I finally rolled!!

1. cleaned my face with cleanser and rubbing alcohol

2. cleaned my roller with alcohol and rinsed with distilled water

3. rolled real lightly on my chest, neck and face

4. used a serum of avocado oil (has vitamin a and d and e), vit e capsule and tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate from Lotioncrafters.

My chest is a little red and I can kinda feel the little pinpricks here and there on my face, probably in areas I went over twice or a little deeper but nothing much.

I'm so happy you posted today...it gave me the shove I needed. Wink Thanks again!

Mary
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Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:01 pm      Reply with quote
Woo-hoo!!!! Way to go, Mary! Very Happy I'm excited for you! I truly think rolling will enhance product penetration so much it will be like using all new products because we will get so much more out of them. Your serum sounds wonderful. I have all those ingredients, so I may use that next time. BTW, the chest, for some reason (thinner skin there, I suppose) is always a bit more reactive to rolling. You can also do this on your hands. Did you roll in the star pattern? Did you roll one section of the face at a time or just go for it over the entire face all at once? I've been doing sections, but it still takes very little time.

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Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:07 pm      Reply with quote
Great thread JJBeacham!
I purchased the .5 for my face, purely for product penetration but have never really got started because of the lack of focus.
I will be following along trying to pick up tips on the best way/ product. Very Happy
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Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:29 pm      Reply with quote
My first full rolling session just for product penetration shocked me, because I did not expect to be beet red from a teeny 0.2mm roller. However, my face looked as if I had severe sunburn, and felt that way - very tight. The only difference I noticed was that whereas sunburn is sore to the touch, my face was not. I drew no blood whatsoever, but believe me, those little needles are a procedure in and of themselves! Much more sensitivity and reaction on the neck and chest than on the face, too.

So far, my favorite product to roll the face is a very gentle, very delicate Ester-C serum. And when applying after-rolling care, I am going to mix in my palm that same C serum, oat beta-glucans (from Gow) and avocado oil, with perhaps a few drops of pearl powder water. That is chock-full of great nutrients for the skin without stinging the heck out of yourself with strong actives. Those actives can wait until the next day or the day after that, as far as I'm concerned. I can tolerate the IS Clinical ProHeal, but it's a bit of a stretch.

I have done lots of reading about rolling purely for product penetration, and while we may think that is what we are doing, we are also using needles on our faces. The same cleanliness must be observed as that observed in deep rolling. And we are going to get benefits from the rolling completely aside from the benefits derived from the products we choose. I know women who are rolling their products in morning and night. IMHO, that is just way too much of a good thing. For my skin, at least, that would not be possible; nor would I want to do it that way. I like the idea of a treatment twice a week, and at this point, it will take me at least three days to recover! Laughing So my plan will be to roll, watch my skin carefully, give it a couple of days after it's back to normal and roll again, always using just the lightest touch.

Hi Pal, I'm so glad you're here! Mary's already rolled and I have dipped my toes in the water. I am completely red-faced and my skin is tight. Those little rollers are strong!!! If you decide to use your 0.5 for product rolling, just barely press the roller. My roller was honestly pressed about as much as dragging my finger down my face. And, OMG - such results! ~ JJ Very Happy

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breezy42
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Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:32 pm      Reply with quote
I am really glad you started a separate thread for this. I am currently doing the deeper rolling, but oh how I would love to be doing a .2mm one instead, especially after I have completed 6 or so deep ones. I am so interested in hearing your results over time, so please keep us all posted Smile
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Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:09 am      Reply with quote
Hi, Guys, I have 1.5 roller and have rolled a few times now where I've drawn blood. I've wondered about using my 1.5 ever so lightly for product penetration. Any thoughts on that? Smile

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MaryClaire
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Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:25 am      Reply with quote
Because of the holidays and because it was my first time, I just skimmed the skin with the .5 roller...didn't do any pattern...just trying to get the feel for it...but I was oh so very proud of myself. Smile This morning my face looked well hydrated but really no signs of rolling.

I wanted to avoid putting any chemicals in the channels and that's why I used the homemade serum.

Some of my other concerns are microinflamation and creating scar tissue with copper peptides. I read on one of the other threads that if you use copper peptides, you have to be careful of not wounding your skin too much because it will cause scar tissue to develop...don't know if this is correct but I just wanted to throw that out there.

I'm sure I'll get braver as time goes on because I certainly am going to continue rolling!

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
Mary
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Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:25 am      Reply with quote
Mars wrote:
Hi, Guys, I have 1.5 roller and have rolled a few times now where I've drawn blood. I've wondered about using my 1.5 ever so lightly for product penetration. Any thoughts on that? Smile


Mars, I am very much afraid of using any roller longer than 0.5mm for product penetration on the face. Even my 0.2mm causes extreme redness, swelling and tightness. It's much better by the next morning, but not entirely gone. And I didn't use strong actives, either. So I would recommend buying either a 0.25mm or a 0.5 mm roller for the face.

I think if you use your 1.5mm for product penetration, you are going to get more reaction than you really want from this length needle. Even if you breeze across the face with the roller, it's still probably going to go a bit deeper than the rollers made for product penetration and if it does, couldn't that lead to microinflammation? I would hate to see anything mess with the deeper, painful treatments you've already done. You've gone through agony, I'm sure.

On the other hand, if you are asking if you can use your 1.5mm roller in a lighter way (trying NOT to draw blood) during the remainder of your deep treatments, I think you can. I have simply never believed that you must draw blood to get results. Yes, I know the derms do, but that is for complete remodeling of the skin. I don't know your skin issues and why you chose to do the deeper treatments. I can only tell you that if you use the 1.5 even very lightly, you are going to get redness, swelling, tightness and some form of skin remodeling, without a doubt.

So my advice would be (for product penetration purposes) to buy a 0.25 roller. HTH! ~ JJ Very Happy

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Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:42 am      Reply with quote
MaryClaire wrote:
Because of the holidays and because it was my first time, I just skimmed the skin with the .5 roller...didn't do any pattern...just trying to get the feel for it...but I was oh so very proud of myself. Smile This morning my face looked well hydrated but really no signs of rolling.

I wanted to avoid putting any chemicals in the channels and that's why I used the homemade serum.

Some of my other concerns are microinflamation and creating scar tissue with copper peptides. I read on one of the other threads that if you use copper peptides, you have to be careful of not wounding your skin too much because it will cause scar tissue to develop...don't know if this is correct but I just wanted to throw that out there.

I'm sure I'll get braver as time goes on because I certainly am going to continue rolling!

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
Mary


Mary, I think that's wonderful! There is no timetable here. You do what feels right for you when you are ready. That is what all of us should do.

I don't know either if that is correct about the copper peptides. Dr. Pickart is quoted as saying that he advocates use of dermarolling with CP's, but recommends that rollers wait at least one hour before applying the CP's. That makes sense to me, because the channels are closed up more after an hour. CP's can cause that deep horrible itch, and I certainly don't want to court that. From my last experience, I believe those channels remain open quite a bit longer than I had been led to believe. At least four hours, but that may just be the way I rolled or some other factor involving only my own skin. At least I know what to expect next time and can plan accordingly. If I get the same reaction I got last time I rolled, I will apply CP's no sooner than two hours after rolling.

Happy Thanksgiving to you, Mary, and to everyone at EDS! ~ JJ Very Happy

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Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:47 am      Reply with quote
I would like to mention something about this type of rolling. I believe with the deeper rolling, you roll 10 times in each direction of the star pattern. That is NOT the case in product penetration rolling. When you are using a small needle roller and rolling only for better penetration of products, the most you should roll is four times back and forth in each of the four directions. This is included in my instructions for the original Dermaroller.

The second time I rolled, I rolled ten times in each direction, and no doubt that is why I was still a bit swollen on the second day; no it wasn't the scary type of swelling. I just looked like I had had filler, and that was without holding the skin taut while rolling. Most of the bright red look was gone the next morning, but I was swollen enough for the shape of my face to change.

So everyone please be very careful around the holidays if you are doing this. I would suggest rolling when you know you don't have to go anywhere the next day, just to be safe.

I hope no one minds me jumping in here and posting things as they come to mind. I've read so much, and when something pertaining to PP Rolling enters my forgetful brain, I like to put it in writing so we will have easy access to it. Laughing ~ JJ

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Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:58 pm      Reply with quote
Has anyone / would anyone do a light roll with hyaluronic acid? A mild HA ?
Wouldn't that be a good way to get the product deeper to draw hydration into the skin?
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Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:19 pm      Reply with quote
I'm wondering if I can use some 'Epidermal Growth Factor BT' that I purchased from skinactives...below is the product link.

http://www.skinactives.com/product/detail.aspx?prodID=37

Any thoughts...

Thanks!
Mary
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Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:30 pm      Reply with quote
I forgot..JJ, please keep on sharing everything you know...I love it and I'm sure everyone reading this thread loves it too...we can learn so MUCH from each other. I have been reading on dermarolling for at least a year but there is always a chance of me misinterpreting the message. But when we discussed it, it becomes clearer.

I can't wait until the Thanksgiving feasts are over so I can roll again...I think what kept me from doing it was the thought of the blood and having to use a pain killer...with rolling for penetration, I don't think I'll have a problem.

Keep 'em comin!

Mary
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Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:36 pm      Reply with quote
Hi All,
I just noticed there's a separate thread about dermarolling for product penetration only. Its a great idea Smile

I just finished my first session last night with 0.25mm roller.

I only get redness after the roll. And it's itchy-prickling all over my face when I put the vit C serum.
But in the morning the skin looks normal again. So I was wondering did I roll enough?
I think I did roll quite a lot back and forth but didn't count ;P

At first when I roll, only slight prickling felt when the roll move around my skin...
so I was wondering if the roll did anything to my skin (at all) and I could not see anything visible ;P
(Right before this roll, I tried a single needle on my chick-pox scar and it was so painfull, and a 'tick' of blood came out, so...)

BUT then when I apply the serum... gee.. that roller DID pierced my skin ;P

Happy for any input Wink
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Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:58 pm      Reply with quote
I have recently been considering dermarolling for product penetration so I'm so glad to see this thread was started!
Will be looking to glean info from you ladies.

What size of roller is the one available here at EDS by Leaf & Rusher?
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Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:41 am      Reply with quote
rollergal wrote:
Hi All,
I just noticed there's a separate thread about dermarolling for product penetration only. Its a great idea Smile

I just finished my first session last night with 0.25mm roller.

I only get redness after the roll. And it's itchy-prickling all over my face when I put the vit C serum.
But in the morning the skin looks normal again. So I was wondering did I roll enough?
I think I did roll quite a lot back and forth but didn't count ;P

At first when I roll, only slight prickling felt when the roll move around my skin...
so I was wondering if the roll did anything to my skin (at all) and I could not see anything visible ;P
(Right before this roll, I tried a single needle on my chick-pox scar and it was so painfull, and a 'tick' of blood came out, so...)

BUT then when I apply the serum... gee.. that roller DID pierced my skin ;P

Happy for any input Wink


Hi Rollergal,
You must let me know how it goes with your chickenpox scar. I've been wanting to do the same thing but can't find a single needle here in UK.
And remember if you're drawing blood, therefore doing a deeper 'roll' with your needle, don't do it so often. You have to let the skin repair itself first (at least one month).
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Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:23 pm      Reply with quote
This is Miranda wrote:
Has anyone / would anyone do a light roll with hyaluronic acid? A mild HA ?
Wouldn't that be a good way to get the product deeper to draw hydration into the skin?


I am not a fan of overuse of HA. I do use it, but I try to limit my use of it. Hyaluronic acid will keep the proteins of the skin wet, thus allowing easier access to the lower levels of the skin by bacteria. For that reason alone, I wouldn't use HA when rolling, but once you are all red and swollen, it's excellent to apply it mixed with emu or hempseed oil. Another thing about HA that doesn't seem to be well known is that unless the percentage is 1% or lower, HA can backfire and actually TAKE moisture from within the skin. ~ JJ

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Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:31 pm      Reply with quote
brierrose wrote:
I have recently been considering dermarolling for product penetration so I'm so glad to see this thread was started!
Will be looking to glean info from you ladies.

What size of roller is the one available here at EDS by Leaf & Rusher?


Brierrose, my memory is appallingly bad, but I believe the original version of the Leaf & Rusher Roller had 0.13mm needles, and the new revamped roller (Leaf & Rusher Tx Roller) carried by EDS has 0.17mm needles. ~ JJ

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Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:33 pm      Reply with quote
MaryClaire wrote:
I'm wondering if I can use some 'Epidermal Growth Factor BT' that I purchased from skinactives...below is the product link.

http://www.skinactives.com/product/detail.aspx?prodID=37

Any thoughts...

Thanks!
Mary


Mary, yes, that would be fine to use when rolling. Also, Let's Make Collagen and Marine Nutrient Serum by SkinActives would be excellent (you could also combine them). ~ JJ

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Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:36 pm      Reply with quote
MaryClaire wrote:
I forgot..JJ, please keep on sharing everything you know...I love it and I'm sure everyone reading this thread loves it too...we can learn so MUCH from each other. I have been reading on dermarolling for at least a year but there is always a chance of me misinterpreting the message. But when we discussed it, it becomes clearer.

I can't wait until the Thanksgiving feasts are over so I can roll again...I think what kept me from doing it was the thought of the blood and having to use a pain killer...with rolling for penetration, I don't think I'll have a problem.

Keep 'em comin!

Mary


Boy, can I relate!!! I can't wait to roll again. Laughing Isn't it great? ~ JJ

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Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:42 pm      Reply with quote
rollergal wrote:
Hi All,
I just noticed there's a separate thread about dermarolling for product penetration only. Its a great idea Smile

I just finished my first session last night with 0.25mm roller.

I only get redness after the roll. And it's itchy-prickling all over my face when I put the vit C serum.
But in the morning the skin looks normal again. So I was wondering did I roll enough?
I think I did roll quite a lot back and forth but didn't count ;P

At first when I roll, only slight prickling felt when the roll move around my skin...
so I was wondering if the roll did anything to my skin (at all) and I could not see anything visible ;P
(Right before this roll, I tried a single needle on my chick-pox scar and it was so painfull, and a 'tick' of blood came out, so...)

BUT then when I apply the serum... gee.. that roller DID pierced my skin ;P

Happy for any input Wink


Hi, Rollergal! You got results, believe me. A 0.25mm roller is capable of producing both redness and swelling, depending on the amount of pressure you use and how many times you roll back and forth, as well as your skin type. I have fair skin and rolling 10 times back and forth gave me lots of redness and swelling with a 0.20mm roller. However, rolling with the same roller only 4 or 5 times back and forth gave me redness with no swelling. I used the same amount of pressure each time. If you have an olive complexion or very thick skin, you might want to apply a bit more pressure next time (not enough to draw blood, but don't freak out if there are a few blood spots) and roll 10 times back and forth verically, horizontally and each way diagonally (known as the star pattern). Also, holding the skin taut with one hand while rolling with the other works well. HTH! ~ JJ

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Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:45 pm      Reply with quote
Another thought: the instructions that came with my Dermaroller (the original Dermaroller brand with 0.2mm needles) say to begin with twice a week rolling, and once your skin adapts, you may go up to 3-5 times per week for product penetration. A deep roll you should only do once every 4-6 weeks, depending on how your skin heals. ~ JJ

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