Dermarolling for Product Penetration ONLY
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free skin care · Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:31 am

Sorry BF,
My fault I took exception to a claim on a site selling their product that "zinc should not be used on "broken" skin" I know that in the form
of zinc oxide in an ointment base this statement just makes no sense. I wasn't suggesting it be used for rolling! At the same time the Lanolin in their product would be of concern to
me as well, many are allergic to Lanolin.

DM
Sorry Again BF! Smile

Barefootgirl wrote:

I'm probably missing something in the discussion, but I am confused as to the benefit of rolling zinc oxide into the skin?

I use Relastin, which IIRC, is a zinc based topical and I am considering rolling that in - but as of yet, have not tried it.

My logic tells me we would only be interested in increasing penetration of active ingredients - that ingredients intended to soothe or repair the barrier need to stay on top....? but then again, WDIK Smile

BF

free skin care · Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:07 am

DarkMoon wrote:

Sorry BF,
My fault I took exception to a claim on a site selling their product that "zinc should not be used on "broken" skin" I know that in the form
of zinc oxide in an ointment base this statement just makes no sense. I wasn't suggesting it be used for rolling! At the same time the Lanolin in their product would be of concern to
me as well, many are allergic to Lanolin.

DM
Sorry Again BF! Smile

Barefootgirl wrote:

I'm probably missing something in the discussion, but I am confused as to the benefit of rolling zinc oxide into the skin?

I use Relastin, which IIRC, is a zinc based topical and I am considering rolling that in - but as of yet, have not tried it.

My logic tells me we would only be interested in increasing penetration of active ingredients - that ingredients intended to soothe or repair the barrier need to stay on top....? but then again, WDIK Smile

BF

We just got a bit sidetracked; it made no sense to me, either. Anyone who has ever tackled diaper rash would wonder the same thing. ~ JJ

free skin care · Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:26 pm

This is Miranda wrote:

Thanks Keliu - I have yet to find a good source for DIY products in London (also I'm terribly lazy when it comes to making my own stuff!).
Have you personally had results from making this? I need some spurring on to get out there and start making my own serums.

I'm in Australia and have a similar problem sourcing actives. However, I've found that both Skinactives.com and Bulkactives.com are great to order from and have reasonable postage rates. The packages also arrive quite quickly.

I make just about all of my own potions - it's so much cheaper than buying OTC. Niacinamide has many benefits for the skin - including treating hyperpigmentation. It's so inexpensive to make your own concoctions, you should give it a go.

free skin care · Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:35 pm

JJ - I've used Copper Peptides off and on over the past few years but tend to get put off by all the horror stories of sagging (which is my main problem). I think I start to imagine that I'm seeing sagging so stop using the CPs. I also think that they make my pores look bigger but don't know whether this is just from the green colour settling in them.

I'm very interested in this Skin Signals Serum though. Can you tell me more about it and how you've been using it. TIA

free skin care · Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:35 am

Keliu wrote:

JJ - I've used Copper Peptides off and on over the past few years but tend to get put off by all the horror stories of sagging (which is my main problem). I think I start to imagine that I'm seeing sagging so stop using the CPs. I also think that they make my pores look bigger but don't know whether this is just from the green colour settling in them.

I'm very interested in this Skin Signals Serum though. Can you tell me more about it and how you've been using it. TIA

Keliu, I was exactly like you are. Fascinated by CP's potential yet hyper-aware of "the uglies" associated with them. I began by using Neutrogena's Visibly Firm line. I bought Super CP Serum from SkinBiology and started out very slowly - added a drop or two more each week to a bit of Visibly Firm in my palm. When I "graduated" to using straight Super CP, I didn't use LacSal or Exfol serum underneath. Not sure if that makes a difference or not.

I used Super CP Serum for 8 months and decided to do a 3-week-long intense application experiment to see if I could kickstart good results. I applied morning and night, quite a few drops. Kept my skin exfoliated and drenched in oils. The only visible result was one eyelid sagging horribly one morning AND larger pores near the nose. I applied DMAE to the eyelid and within 3 hours, it was back where it should be and has remained there. (Thank goodness - THAT was scary!) Also, at some point in the first week of intense application, I experienced that deep strong itch I had heard about. I don't want to feel that again! However, that proved to me that the copper peptides were definitely getting deep into the skin where they should have begun to do some good. No such luck.

As a last shot at trying CP's, I ordered Exfol Serum (2% salicylic) and Skin Signals. This is virtually all I have used for the past few weeks, after taking a two month break from all copper peptides. Strangely, I can apply Exfol Serum immediately after rolling and it doesn't sting in the least. The Skin Signals I apply about 15-20 minutes later - I definitely don't have to wait an hour. If I don't use Exfol, I put the Skin Signals on right away, immediately after rolling. I leave my face wet from washing and roll that in, then apply Skin Signals. It feels soothing, of all things!

The differences that I have noticed are: much more refined skin with tiny, tight pores - it actually looks airbrushed; visible lifted effect; much more even skin tone; in general, just a very tight, lifted, much more youthful look to my skin, lots of suppleness, and it's looking nice and thick. This is not wishful thinking; my DH has made several comments recently about how good my skin looks!

I don't use Exfol every time I use Skin Signals, but I do always apply emu oil over it unless I'm wearing makeup (which I don't do every day). In an attempt to replicate Skin Biology's emu oil product they recommend for use with Skin Signals, I add one pump of Skinactives' ELS serum and one pump of Anti-Ox Booster. If I am going to be wearing makeup, I skip the emu (or use just a teeny bit with a bit of Anti-Ox Booster) and then apply Visibly Firm lifting serum and/or day lotion over the Skin Signals. The day lotion contains sunscreen. I also drybrush morning and night, and do facial exercises.

Sorry for the novel, but I am so amazed at the difference in my skin. For me at least, there is no comparison between Super CP Serum and Skin Signals. I felt that I gave Super CP a more than fair trial, and it showed me nothing. The Skin Signals, within two weeks, showed me what the right copper peptides can do. I have been using S/S at least once, but normally twice a day (10 drops each time over face and neck). I haven't used it near the eyes yet, but am getting ready to do so. I have to force myself to use my Vitamin A/Vitamin C routine right now, because I just want to slather on Skin Signals! Laughing

I am going to do a roll tonight using my 0.5mm roller and firmer pressure. Will apply S/S, emu and report results. Also, I'm going to begin using S/S around the eyes. I have my fingers crossed about that one!

I firmly believe that it makes a huge difference which CP product you use. And we are all different, so my third try was the charm. I hope that S/S will be as effective for you. I know that SkinBiology has had lots of excellent feedback about this product. I couldn't be more pleased with it. Plus, it's not expensive and it lasts a very long time. ~ JJ

free skin care · Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:19 pm

JJ,

Is this the Skin Signals Solution that you use:

"Trigger two-fold regeneration with Dr. Pickart's new Skin Signals Solution formula which optimizes your results with copper-peptides to remodel, repair, and tighten your skin."

free skin care · Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:39 pm

JJ, I am very grateful for the "novel"... Laughing

I've had a love, hate relationship for so long with CP's, and I think now SS might be worth a shot...

Thanks!

free skin care · Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:13 pm

Miranda: Yes, that's it. And I think it goes hand in hand with either SkinBiology's Emu with extra Vit. E., Lutein & Lycopene OR plain emu oil with a pump of Skinactives' ELS Serum and a pump of Anti-Ox Booster (which I had on hand). I love Skin Signals, but I think at least part of the success I am having is that I am using the above-described enhanced emu on top.

Kassy: Love/hate is right!!! I read and read, wanted so badly to try CP's, saw photos and became terrified. It went on and on. I liked the Neutrogena Visibly Firm line and knew my skin could handle it, so jumped up to Super CP Serum added to those products and eventually, was able to use it straight from the bottle,and I used it all over face, neck and eyes. Although I didn't get good results, I only had that one bit of sagging and some enlarged pores. I think Skin Signals is far superior to any copper product I have ever used, including the Visibly Firm Lift Serum, which has quite a following. Remember, also, I haven't been using it around the eyes yet. But I am now introducing it in my a.m. eyecream (this morning was the first time) and will let you know what happens. Night eye products will continue to be MD Forte and TNS Night Repair.

XXXXX ~ JJ

free skin care · Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:41 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

I've had a love, hate relationship for so long with CP's, and I think now SS might be worth a shot...

I'm going to give this a try too - you can purchase it from dianayvonne.com as well, if you don't want to get it from SkinBiology. (I think DY has better CS).

Incidentally, I've been adding CoQ10 to my Emu Oil for years - I notice that Dr. Pickart is now doing that as well!

free skin care · Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 pm

I didn't even think of DY carrying the SS Keliu... Nanci (NCN) has it as well..

Good idea with the CQ10 + Emu.. hmm

!

One of these days I'm hoping to work up the courage to try the dreaded little roller... Shock

The more I read the more intrigued I am... This thread is fabulous BTW, as are all of you who have shared in it.

free skin care · Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:14 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

One of these days I'm hoping to work up the courage to try the dreaded little roller... Shock

The more I read the more intrigued I am... This thread is fabulous BTW, as are all of you who have shared in it.

I would have bought from Nanci if I'd known - however, the postage from DY was only $6.75 which is very reasonable.

Just buy a 0.2mm for starters. I just bought one of the cheap ones from Ebay (the one JJ recommended) and it's fine.

free skin care · Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:43 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

One of these days I'm hoping to work up the courage to try the dreaded little roller... Shock

The more I read the more intrigued I am...

I am the biggest baby when it comes to pain. I absolutely have to use numbing cream when I roll with 1mm or 1.5mm so I was pretty reluctant to try the .2mm without numbing medication. I used the .2mm on my neck and chest for the first time 2 nights ago, and it was just slightly uncomfortable. It really wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Smile

free skin care · Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:26 pm

Keliu wrote:

Kassy_A wrote:

I've had a love, hate relationship for so long with CP's, and I think now SS might be worth a shot...

I'm going to give this a try too - you can purchase it from dianayvonne.com as well, if you don't want to get it from SkinBiology. (I think DY has better CS).

Incidentally, I've been adding CoQ10 to my Emu Oil for years - I notice that Dr. Pickart is now doing that as well!

I think Nanci sells the SS too.

free skin care · Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:28 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

I didn't even think of DY carrying the SS Keliu... Nanci (NCN) has it as well..

Good idea with the CQ10 + Emu.. hmm

!

One of these days I'm hoping to work up the courage to try the dreaded little roller... Shock

The more I read the more intrigued I am... This thread is fabulous BTW, as are all of you who have shared in it.

I just started the .75 on my hands with CP's. If I can roll Kassy you definetly can.

free skin care · Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:18 am

Some interesting (and perhaps debatable) info for those who may not have seen it before.

"Needle diameter is very important as we are seeking to maximise the dermal injury without creating a new scar. In my experience, 0.25mm needle diameter is the maximum that can be used without causing a new scar in the skin. Smaller diameter needle skin rollers can be used but do not maximise the dermal injury and therefore will be slower to produce results.

Needle length is also a critical issue. The target when we needle the dermis is a layer in the upper dermis called the intermediate reticular dermis. This dermal layer contains the highest number of stem cells which are able to produce new collagen. The epidermis ( the outer layer of the skin ) varies in depth from .05mm on the eyelids to 1.5mm on the soles of the feet. The epidermis of the face ( other than the eyelids ) varies from 0.3mm to 1mm in depth and therefore a 0.75mm to 2mm needle length is more than adequate to reach the intermediate reticular dermis. In my experience, needles more than 2mm in length have a tendency to catch and tear the skin.

As the skin has a memory and will seek to return to its previous state, I recommend repeated Skin Needling treatments over a period of 1 to 2 years. I also recommend that my patients continue home needling to ensure the longevity of their scar improvement."

Interesting details about needle width and needle length beyond 2mm.
And does skin have memory to want to return to it's pre-rolled state??

free skin care · Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:13 am

This is Miranda wrote:

Some interesting (and perhaps debatable) info for those who may not have seen it before.

"Needle diameter is very important as we are seeking to maximise the dermal injury without creating a new scar. In my experience, 0.25mm needle diameter is the maximum that can be used without causing a new scar in the skin. Smaller diameter needle skin rollers can be used but do not maximise the dermal injury and therefore will be slower to produce results.

Needle length is also a critical issue. The target when we needle the dermis is a layer in the upper dermis called the intermediate reticular dermis. This dermal layer contains the highest number of stem cells which are able to produce new collagen. The epidermis ( the outer layer of the skin ) varies in depth from .05mm on the eyelids to 1.5mm on the soles of the feet. The epidermis of the face ( other than the eyelids ) varies from 0.3mm to 1mm in depth and therefore a 0.75mm to 2mm needle length is more than adequate to reach the intermediate reticular dermis. In my experience, needles more than 2mm in length have a tendency to catch and tear the skin.

As the skin has a memory and will seek to return to its previous state, I recommend repeated Skin Needling treatments over a period of 1 to 2 years. I also recommend that my patients continue home needling to ensure the longevity of their scar improvement."

Interesting details about needle width and needle length beyond 2mm.
And does skin have memory to want to return to it's pre-rolled state??

Where is this information from, Miranda?

free skin care · Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:20 am

This is Miranda wrote:

Some interesting (and perhaps debatable) info for those who may not have seen it before.

"Needle diameter is very important as we are seeking to maximise the dermal injury without creating a new scar. In my experience, 0.25mm needle diameter is the maximum that can be used without causing a new scar in the skin. Smaller diameter needle skin rollers can be used but do not maximise the dermal injury and therefore will be slower to produce results.

Needle length is also a critical issue. The target when we needle the dermis is a layer in the upper dermis called the intermediate reticular dermis. This dermal layer contains the highest number of stem cells which are able to produce new collagen. The epidermis ( the outer layer of the skin ) varies in depth from .05mm on the eyelids to 1.5mm on the soles of the feet. The epidermis of the face ( other than the eyelids ) varies from 0.3mm to 1mm in depth and therefore a 0.75mm to 2mm needle length is more than adequate to reach the intermediate reticular dermis. In my experience, needles more than 2mm in length have a tendency to catch and tear the skin.

As the skin has a memory and will seek to return to its previous state, I recommend repeated Skin Needling treatments over a period of 1 to 2 years. I also recommend that my patients continue home needling to ensure the longevity of their scar improvement."

Interesting details about needle width and needle length beyond 2mm.
And does skin have memory to want to return to it's pre-rolled state??

Hi, Miranda. Yes, I've read this, but cannot remember the source offhand, having read everything I could find on rolling. I've made sure the diameter of my needles complies with this measurement. I'm sure this article is referring to needle length particularly for collagen renewal. For those rolling with smaller needles for product penetration, most, I believe, are relying on better-absorbed actives to activate those stem cells in the intermediate reticular dermis. However, last night I rolled with my 0.5mm roller and used firm pressure. My face was tomato-red and as I sit here this morning, it's as swollen and round as a pumpkin, and I have a slender face. I am almost unrecognizable, but my face feels great and the swelling will be gone by tonight. So it's quite obvious on my own skin that the 0.5mm roller does things to my skin that my 0.2mm roller is incapable of. Another oddity - no hives whatsoever this time! I'm now considering a 0.75mm roller and am discussing this with my seller.

One strange thing has happened: I also own a (supposedly) 0.2mm three-line roller. The other night, I decided to use it only on a broken capillary on my right cheek. It felt much more like I would imagine a 2.0mm roller would feel, and left blood spots!!! I think it was mislabeled, but while blood did appear, it didn't hurt in the least. I only bought this one to use on that broken cap, so we'll see what happens. However, I've broken the blood barrier, so am feeling quite brave at the moment! Laughing

~ JJ

ETA: As far as skin memory is concerned, we have all used topical products that require continued use or the skin goes back to its original state. I'm very interested in whether this also applies to rolling.

free skin care · Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:01 am

Not Miranda,

http://www.scar-reduction.com/needling.html

free skin care · Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:13 am

jjbeacham wrote:

However, last night I rolled with my 0.5mm roller and used firm pressure. My face was tomato-red and as I sit here this morning, it's as swollen and round as a pumpkin, and I have a slender face. I am almost unrecognizable, but my face feels great and the swelling will be gone by tonight. So it's quite obvious on my own skin that the 0.5mm roller does things to my skin that my 0.2mm roller is incapable of. Another oddity - no hives whatsoever this time! I'm now considering a 0.75mm roller and am discussing this with my seller.

One strange thing has happened: I also own a (supposedly) 0.2mm three-line roller. The other night, I decided to use it only on a broken capillary on my right cheek. It felt much more like I would imagine a 2.0mm roller would feel, and left blood spots!!! I think it was mislabeled, but while blood did appear, it didn't hurt in the least. I only bought this one to use on that broken cap, so we'll see what happens. However, I've broken the blood barrier, so am feeling quite brave at the moment! Laughing

~ JJ

JJ, someone on another rolling thread usually uses a 1.5mm roller but when she used a shorter one for prod. pene. she got hives!

Congrats for breaking the blood barrier! Hope the swelling goes down soon to reveal even better skin! Problem with the deeper rolls is that we won't really know how effective it is until a few months down the road.

free skin care · Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:48 am

Miranda, you suggested on another thread that I wait more than one week between 1mm rolls. Like you mentioned, I have read that it can break down the collagen that is building if you roll sooner than 4 weeks. I have also read that, for a 1mm, the wait time should be 1-4 weeks. Since my skin seems to rebound quickly between rolls, I chose the 1 week thinking it may accelerate the process. I have spent hours reading article after article about this. There is such varying information out there, I'm not really sure what is best. If anyone has an opinion or experience to share, please chime in.

JJ, when I was rolling with the .25, at first, I was getting some terrible irritation. It turned out that the problem was the topicals, not the roller. I was rolling in topicals that were too strong and were burning my skin. Once I started using weaker topicals, I was able to use a 1mm with no problem. Could this be an issue for you with the .5mm? Maybe the topicals you are rolling in are fine for the .25mm but too strong for a .5mm. For me, LAA can't come anywhere near my face until the next day or I'm going to be beet red no matter what the needle length is. Just a thought.

free skin care · Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:54 am

I have wondered why we don't have any delicious Kassy recipes to roll into our skin!

Seriously, rolling is a wonderful thing. It's not as scary as you would think.

JJ's source is an inexpensive way to get started.

Kassy_A wrote:

I didn't even think of DY carrying the SS Keliu... Nanci (NCN) has it as well..

Good idea with the CQ10 + Emu.. hmm

!

One of these days I'm hoping to work up the courage to try the dreaded little roller... Shock

The more I read the more intrigued I am... This thread is fabulous BTW, as are all of you who have shared in it.

free skin care · Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:56 am

Keliu, how much CoQ10 do you mix in to your Emu oil?

Keliu wrote:

Kassy_A wrote:

I've had a love, hate relationship for so long with CP's, and I think now SS might be worth a shot...

I'm going to give this a try too - you can purchase it from dianayvonne.com as well, if you don't want to get it from SkinBiology. (I think DY has better CS).

Incidentally, I've been adding CoQ10 to my Emu Oil for years - I notice that Dr. Pickart is now doing that as well!

free skin care · Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:59 am

Hi everyone,

is it possible that rolling helps with broken caps ? I have avoided tolling over my cheeks with the 1.5mm assuming this would make the worse ?

thanks

Jackie xx

free skin care · Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:04 am

I am experimenting with PCA's hq free pigment gel. I am rolling it in with a .25mm on one small spot to see what it does. Will let you know if the ugly thing disappears. Very Happy

This is Miranda wrote:

Keliu wrote:

This is Miranda wrote:

Does anyone know a good product for reducing/minimizing the pigmentation marks left from spots that I can use with my roller?

You could try a DIY Glucosamine and Niacinamide serum.

4 tsp. Distilled water
½ tsp. Glucosamine (5%)
¼ tsp. Niacinamide (2.5%)
1 tsp. Glycerin

Thanks Keliu - I have yet to find a good source for DIY products in London (also I'm terribly lazy when it comes to making my own stuff!).
Have you personally had results from making this? I need some spurring on to get out there and start making my own serums.

free skin care · Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:06 am

Jackie284 wrote:

Hi everyone,

is it possible that rolling helps with broken caps ? I have avoided tolling over my cheeks with the 1.5mm assuming this would make the worse ?

thanks

Jackie xx

It may be possible, but it has not helped my broken caps (and I used both the small size and the 1 mm over them).

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