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Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:57 pm  |
So I have been on the boards for a little bit now trying to absorb everything. I have asked about trying ways to smooth out my forehead and lift and separate my furrows. I've been trying to figure out what is going on with my forehead as it does NOT have any lines horizontal or vertical, but there is a bit of looseness of skin over the corrugators or frown muscles (now I know what they are called!)  . I have read EVERYTHING about forehead with the Ageless, read over all 80 pages of the Ageless thread, the facial exercise threads, etc and I dont see any special exercises to LIFT and SEPERATE the frown muscles. I see plenty of exercised to smoothe out horizontal and the dreaded "11s". Is that even possible to have loose skin on the forehead furrow but no lines?
All the exercisese I have read about seem to make my frown muscles stronger. It almost seems as I have built up the frown muscle TOO much because of all the crying and stress that I have had over the past year and now I have loose skin over those muscles. Almost as if the skin has detached from the muscles. Not sure if that's possible, but just hoping there is something I can try to smooth out the skin/muscle again.
So many of you have been so helpful with forehead exercise recommendations, but now, I am not so sure that I want to build up those muscles.
I am 31 years old and have been doing the Tanaka message btw. don't know what else I should try. JLM has been so kind to recommend forehead exercises, but now I am thinking that they may only bee for forehead lines. Please help.
Thanks for any help. And thank you for reading my very long winded explanation. |
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Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:02 pm |
| Just to add a better description of my long winded explanation. It's almost as if I have a cave man furrow look going on with some slack skin over those furrow muscles. If that helps to clear it up. Maybe not. |
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Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:40 am |
Hi Peggy
Yes it sounds like you have overbuilding of the corrugators. This is no biggie and really easy to handle (its something I’ve done myself many times, I’m a frowner at points). I think Deb one time said it was the “Neanderful look” which is quite appt, but I’ve also heard it called the “Klingon Look”.
All you simply have to do is lay off exercising that area. Its true that many of the exercises for the corrugators do make them stronger, but it should also give a person awareness of when those muscles are moving, and then when they notice that, they simply relax the muscles (which initially is a lot easier said than done). I have usually found that if I stop exercising that area, the muscle begins to atrophy within 2-3 weeks and I’m back as before I over exercised them. I then reintroduce the exercises, with much less reps and resistance and that lets me keep those muscles toned without overbuilding, but it’s a learning curve for everyone.
The other thing to include (and I don’t know if your doing so already) but is to specifically massage the forehead area and the procerus and corrugators in their entirety. Tanaka does include that forehead massage part, but I suspect that if your noticing skin looseness there, you need to focus on massaging that area for a little longer and doing it more targeted. The corrugators love massage, and it really helps to smooth them down over time. The skin has also probably loosened a little to accomodate the bigger muscles you now have, but it will tighten up over time.
There’s always a solution! Its just a matter of locating it.
Sean |
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Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:27 am |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
Hi Peggy
Yes it sounds like you have overbuilding of the corrugators. This is no biggie and really easy to handle (its something I’ve done myself many times, I’m a frowner at points). I think Deb one time said it was the “Neanderful look” which is quite appt, but I’ve also heard it called the “Klingon Look”.
All you simply have to do is lay off exercising that area. Its true that many of the exercises for the corrugators do make them stronger, but it should also give a person awareness of when those muscles are moving, and then when they notice that, they simply relax the muscles (which initially is a lot easier said than done). I have usually found that if I stop exercising that area, the muscle begins to atrophy within 2-3 weeks and I’m back as before I over exercised them. I then reintroduce the exercises, with much less reps and resistance and that lets me keep those muscles toned without overbuilding, but it’s a learning curve for everyone.
The other thing to include (and I don’t know if your doing so already) but is to specifically massage the forehead area and the procerus and corrugators in their entirety. Tanaka does include that forehead massage part, but I suspect that if your noticing skin looseness there, you need to focus on massaging that area for a little longer and doing it more targeted. The corrugators love massage, and it really helps to smooth them down over time. The skin has also probably loosened a little to accomodate the bigger muscles you now have, but it will tighten up over time.
There’s always a solution! Its just a matter of locating it.
Sean |
Awesome Sean! I love reading your post 'cause you always have such great knowledge on how the face and muscles work. And I don't feel so bad now about the muscle thing. You've given me hope! The derms were telling me I needed botox. 
It's so funny because I would have never thought I could even overbuilding the muscle since the only thing I was doing just frowning ALL THE TIME, but I guess that counts as exercising the muscle in, right? I hope that I was clear when I explained that the muscle looks bigger due to frowning, giving me exactly as you said, the Klingon look! I have tried to incorporate some exercises that JLM suggested ie: the one where you put your fingers above the eyebrows and push out and then push in. I've also tried to incorporate the Tom's ear wiggling/scalp exercise. (See, I have read everything on the boards!) Do you think that will help too?
Anyhoo, I'll try to be more conscious of my frowning during the day, but it's really hard at night. |
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Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:15 am |
Peggy
With overbuilding in this case, I think it’s just a good idea to just rest a while rather than trying to exercise around it. Usually the corrugators if they build up heavy and fast are usually one of your stronger muscles and so will jump in to try and ease the tension on your weaker muscles.
The ear wiggling won’t work in the way your wanting on the corrguators because they are designed to tackle the occipitalis and frontalis. These are not the muscle that have caused the Klingon look but in doing those exercises, you will find that the corrguators do become active and that’s not what your wanting to achieve here. You simply want the muscles to atrophy back to their former state which means rest and relaxation. Some gentle massage should be find, but you don’t want anything aggressive yet. Your corrugators are kind of your employees who you have overworked and are in need of a vacation.
If your moving muscle, its activating it somewhat and it will not atrophy as a result. I think a lot of facial exercises activate fibres and this can if overdone interfere with the repairing process.
I’ve done overbuilding several times (and I’m sure I’ve not finished it yet as it comes in stages with me) but I haven’t just overbuilt the corrugators, I’ve overbuilt my jawline several times creating what looks like jowls - but are really firm muscle etc. Its all part of the course and so the important thing is to learn from the lesson, get it to atrophy back and then reintroduce some form of the exercise back into your routine so you maintain good muscle health without overbuilding. Sometimes less really is more when it comes to exercise.
Think of it this way, when your frowning the muscle pulls. Muscle can only pull (that’s why when we smile and laugh, you get the lips moving - because the cheek muscles are pulling on the lips etc. So even with frowning, if your making that expression, your using those muscles.
Sean
| Peggotty wrote: |
Awesome Sean! I love reading your post 'cause you always have such great knowledge on how the face and muscles work. And I don't feel so bad now about the muscle thing. You've given me hope! The derms were telling me I needed botox.
It's so funny because I would have never thought I could even overbuilding the muscle since the only thing I was doing just frowning ALL THE TIME, but I guess that counts as exercising the muscle in, right? I hope that I was clear when I explained that the muscle looks bigger due to frowning, giving me exactly as you said, the Klingon look! I have tried to incorporate some exercises that JLM suggested ie: the one where you put your fingers above the eyebrows and push out and then push in. I've also tried to incorporate the Tom's ear wiggling/scalp exercise. (See, I have read everything on the boards!) Do you think that will help too?
Anyhoo, I'll try to be more conscious of my frowning during the day, but it's really hard at night. |
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Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:40 am |
| Wow Sean, thanks so much! I'll lay off the muscles and do some massaging. And your absoulutely right, messaging the muscles inside the eyebrows feels so good. I just wish I could stop frowning whilst I sleep. Do you think frownies would work in this instance then? Or would that cause overbuilding to? I apparently have very strong frown muscles. |
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Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:46 am |
Frownies are definitely a good idea. They won't cause overbuilding, as they will prevent the movement that your doing so should help a lot. Alternatively you could try first aid tape also. Anything that will stop the expression is worthwhile trying.
| Peggotty wrote: |
| Wow Sean, thanks so much! I'll lay off the muscles and do some massaging. And your absoulutely right, messaging the muscles inside the eyebrows feels so good. I just wish I could stop frowning whilst I sleep. Do you think frownies would work in this instance then? Or would that cause overbuilding to? I apparently have very strong frown muscles. |
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Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:48 am |
Hi Peggotty,
Isn't Sean the best? He has been sooo helpful to me too. I hope you can get everything worked out with the forehead situation. This might sound a bit flaky, but perhaps you could try "thinking happy thoughts" as well?
Good luck! |
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Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:34 am |
Most definitely JLM! Everyone here is so helpful! And yes, I need to get my stress situation under control.
BTW, is there a difference between the corrugator and the glabella and the corrugator,as now I think I have confused myself even more. |
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Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:38 pm |
There is a difference, the glabella is the space between the eyebrows and above the nose and it helps join the two superciliary ridges. Sometimes these go under the head of the corrugators, so depending on which anatomy diagram your looking at, sometimes they look like they are part of the corrugator, sometimes they look like they are on top, and sometimes underneath the corrugators. The corrugators themselves are kind of like little tales that start at the tip of the eyebrow and go along it.
A great way of relaxing that area is doing light taps with your fingers along the whole area that you have overbuilt (lightly though). It feels quite calming too - which is great if stress is an issue!
| Peggotty wrote: |
| BTW, is there a difference between the corrugator and the glabella and the corrugator,as now I think I have confused myself even more. |
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Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:38 pm |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
There is a difference, the glabella is the space between the eyebrows and above the nose and it helps join the two superciliary ridges. Sometimes these go under the head of the corrugators, so depending on which anatomy diagram your looking at, sometimes they look like they are part of the corrugator, sometimes they look like they are on top, and sometimes underneath the corrugators. The corrugators themselves are kind of like little tales that start at the tip of the eyebrow and go along it.
A great way of relaxing that area is doing light taps with your fingers along the whole area that you have overbuilt (lightly though). It feels quite calming too - which is great if stress is an issue!
| Peggotty wrote: |
| BTW, is there a difference between the corrugator and the glabella and the corrugator,as now I think I have confused myself even more. |
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Sean:
Do you have any pictures of your before and after posted on the flexeffect website? |
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Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:16 am |
No I don't have those. How I got involved in facial exercises in itself is such a long story, as I was involved in an accident whereby part of my face was damaged, so I was lucky enough to work with a really good derm, and some other teachers before doing FlexEffect. The system I was doing before FlexEffect was good, but then I kind of hit a plateau whereby I was told that the answer was to lessen my workouts and that didn't make sense to me (although I can fully understand it now). FlexEffect has been the program I've done longest though.
I should really get an updated photo for the FE website also and will work on doing that soon.
| lisacollins00 wrote: |
Sean:
Do you have any pictures of your before and after posted on the flexeffect website? |
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Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:30 pm |
So corrugator and glabellia are different. but when I'm referring to the frown muscles, I mean the corrugators, so your advise would still apply?
BTW, it turns out that my frown muscles must be stronger than I thought. I tried using the frownies at night and I had frowned them out. Is there anything else that you can think of that may keep those muscles immobilized whilst I sleep? That is when I do most of my frowning, so I guess I must be a worry-sleeper too. I don't want to have to resort to botox. |
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Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:49 am |
Yep, though they kind of work in a team, but yes advice still applies. Try doing a little massage before you apply them onto the skin itself. With the frownies, some people say surgical tape also works. I think its going to be hard, as it sounds like its a practice you have been doing for a quite a while, but its worthwhile doing now.
The other thing to do is try some relaxation exercises (to help you relax and also get you out of a tense state). Sometimes just doing a little meditation or relaxation exercise can get your mind out of that tense state that causes you to frown.
Its not going to happen over night, but step by step your get there!
I'm a little against argireline, as it was a buzz word back in the 90's but in freezing the muscles, it actually kind of works in a similar fashion to that of botox, in that although it freezes them, it makes them more open to atrophying and aging faster (because they are not used). Also some people who used it, found it gave them more sagging as a result - worth mentioning.
| Peggotty wrote: |
So corrugator and glabellia are different. but when I'm referring to the frown muscles, I mean the corrugators, so your advise would still apply?
BTW, it turns out that my frown muscles must be stronger than I thought. I tried using the frownies at night and I had frowned them out. Is there anything else that you can think of that may keep those muscles immobilized whilst I sleep? That is when I do most of my frowning, so I guess I must be a worry-sleeper too. I don't want to have to resort to botox. |
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Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:37 am |
Peggotty,
I had some real issues with my forehead and although I believe in facial exercises I needed to use a combination of things to solve my problem. Safetox was my answer and this is the thread about it. I have also pm my pictures to you of the before and after.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29913&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=safetox&start=0 |
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female,"50 something" medium to thick normal skin, no wrinkles,Lightstim,Easy Eye Solutions,Green Smoothies,Ageless Secret Gold, Pico Toner,Beautiful Image |
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Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:35 am |
| I remember seeing those photos Toby and they are impressive. Do you still have full movement of your forehead though as the name safetox kind of sounds similar to botox, and I'm wondering if it does paralyse the muscles, or builds up the skin and frontalis muscles. Do you feel the device engages the occiptalis also? As the electrodes look like they attach only to the frontalis, and whislt I can understand that they work in an antagonistic fashion with the occipitalis, I'm curious as to how it can strengthen that alone without making physical contact. |
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Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:59 am |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
| I remember seeing those photos Toby and they are impressive. Do you still have full movement of your forehead though as the name safetox kind of sounds similar to botox, and I'm wondering if it does paralyse the muscles, or builds up the skin and frontalis muscles. Do you feel the device engages the occiptalis also? As the electrodes look like they attach only to the frontalis, and whislt I can understand that they work in an antagonistic fashion with the occipitalis, I'm curious as to how it can strengthen that alone without making physical contact. |
Sean I wish you could try it because it is very difficult to describe what it does in words. I have complete movement of my forehead but it retrains the muscles to lay flat. I know that sounds strange but trust me it works and works quickly. Apparently some of us frown without realizing it even in our sleep. This device has one electrode and stimulates the muscles in such a way to retrain them to lay flat. Also it got rid of tension headaches. |
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female,"50 something" medium to thick normal skin, no wrinkles,Lightstim,Easy Eye Solutions,Green Smoothies,Ageless Secret Gold, Pico Toner,Beautiful Image |
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Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:06 am |
One day I'm sure I'll get an opportunity, but I used to have lines on my forehead that I managed to rid with both exercises and massage, but if they ever come back, I'll be sure to give it a try.
Yep its so true what you say re sleep, many of us move our faces around when we sleep (usually because we're expression emotions etc in dreams etc). The name just threw me a little, but it makes sense in that it makes the muscle flat. |
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Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:33 am |
If I were 30 without doubt the facial exercises might have straightened things out, but since I started at 52 and had them since I was 10, that is many years of tension in that area to erase. If the facial exercises don't do the trick, which they are the most inexpensive way, then Safetox is a possible next step. For me botox is something I didn't want to consider.  I can report that facial exercises have been extremely effective in other areas even being 52 when I started. |
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female,"50 something" medium to thick normal skin, no wrinkles,Lightstim,Easy Eye Solutions,Green Smoothies,Ageless Secret Gold, Pico Toner,Beautiful Image |
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Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:14 am |
Thanks so much! Goodness. You have a beautiful smooth forehead, Toby! (and lovely eyes) All this time I thought Safetox was some kind of "freeze" serum. I had no idea it was a little forehead machine. Looks really interesting. Does it also help with NL lines or is it only designed for the forehead?
Or should I stick with facial exercise, tanaka massage, green smoothies work best for the NLs?
Toby, Sean, JLM: Thanks again for the wealth of info and your shared expertise via pms.
However, Safetox is a bit pricey! Will have to save up for it. In the meantime, I will do as much as I can naturally for the NLs and frowns muscles, first and foremost: try not to be stressed out all the time especially at night (easier said than done, relaxation techniques, the Tanaka massage, forehead massage and tapping, green smoothies, dry brushing.
Anything else to try? |
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Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:31 pm |
Safetox does absolutely nothing for N/L issues...at least it didn't for me. Tanaka massage, green smoothies,facial exercises,LED lights,Stop,tua viso etc....  are the big guns for that. Depending on your age and degree problem.....all of the above have really help. The ray of hope here is there are many options without involving surgeries.Also sleeping with frownies on(I know not romantic) really is effective and if I had known that in my 30's I wouldn't have needed bigger guns in my 50's!!! |
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female,"50 something" medium to thick normal skin, no wrinkles,Lightstim,Easy Eye Solutions,Green Smoothies,Ageless Secret Gold, Pico Toner,Beautiful Image |
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:13 pm |
I've read throught all the pages of the Safetox thread and it seems to have glowing reviews. I just posted a question there.
It does seem that I am going to have to resort to something like the Safetox. I realized that most of my frowning does happen while I sleep and I really must have the stongest furrow muscles because now a few days in a row, I have actually completely furrowed the frownies completely out. So the frownies have little lines on the actual paper. I even put some tape over it to try to hold the frownies down and I still was able to frown over them. I just cant help the mess I am making of my face while I sleep.
I am trying my hardest to relax these muscles during the day with massage, etc, but I can't help what they do at night. |
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Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:25 am |
Oh-oh. So I did find a bad experience after reading through thread from Jackie. So does that mean that the muscle has atrophied that now its making Jackie's forehead droop? If it's best to post this particular question there, I can.
Toby and Sean, I guess I'm still a little confused as how the Safetox works then. If its different than the other microcurrent devices, then how does it work on the muscle to make it lay flat? I definitely do not need more bulk on my furrows, but I also dont want any sagging either. And as I posted in the previous post above, I think I'm going to resort to something like Safetox as I dont see any other way to control the furrows while I sleep. Frownies and tape are not working. Any help would be appreciated. |
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Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:37 am |
Peggoty
I'm not a safetox owner, so really don't know how it works precisely but the only thing I can say is that if you have lines of any sort, there are many ways of getting rid of them. I've been lucky to work with some fantastic women in their 60's and they have had great success with removing forehead lines and shark mouths with exercises and massage alone, so I think that if thats in your kit, it can be done.
The safetox seems to be a great device, and it seemed to work well for Toby, but like anything, there are many different routes to any destination. |
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