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Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:31 am  |
| alexes wrote: |
I have heard that these facial exercises can cause wrinkles. Is that true? I would really like to try a few but my skin is fragile right now, I am scared to make it worse.
Al |
There was a whole thread dedicated to this debate some months back. If it's a concern of yours, you should take a read of it and then you can make your own conclusions as to whether facial exercising is likely to encourage wrinkles.
On the thread there were opinions from both sides so it was quite an open debate.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=35512&highlight=facial+exercises+dr
BTW Dr. Shultz, who suggests it does cause ageing, is a proponent of plastic surgery and fillers (so you can guess what my take on this argument is!). |
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Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:06 pm |
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| Wow I don't recall any mention of intermediate training in the 2nd or 3rd editions. I need to go back and read my books obviously..... |
It was just a one or two line recommendation to change the reps and counts, but the general recommendation was to do 1 set per muscle per day.
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| I have often wondered about the training daily thing. As you say in bodybuilding they don't usually do it from what I've read. You train upper body one day, then rest and then maybe the day after that do lower body, then maybe day after that you do cardio to keep everything guessing. I'm sure there's got to be some sort of reason I don't understand. |
Yes, you do that because to get the most muscle build, you want to create lots of microtears in the muscles by lifting very heavy weights....but if you create lots of microtears in the muscles, then you need to rest even longer to repair and re-build even stronger muscle.
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| When you say you go slowly on the eccentric/negative part – do you mean you do additional time than the 3-4 seconds. |
No, I still take about 3-4 second to do one full repetition from start to finish.
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| 15 reps, I didn't think they recommended more than 10 reps in the old one, and they seem to have changed that recently to 5 reps (which I'm not complaining about – as it used to take me ages to do the 10 reps even with the cd). |
Yes, they recommend 10 reps. I do 10-15 reps per set. If my contractions are great and my muscles are tired, I try to do 10 reps. But if my hands get tired, don't have a good grip, my muscles aren't feeling it as much, etc., I do more. In my opinion, something like 10 great reps is really better to aim for, but I will sometimes do more to compensate for grip problems, etc. Most bodybuilders aim for between 8-12 reps per set, though sometimes more or less than this.
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| When you say its not enough for some people to get gain in muscles with the 10 reps, I think this is something that they definitely need to address – as I've never heard that before and it makes it sound like it’s a mistake they are making as it sounds like it’s a fact they are either ignoring or overlooking? |
It's an interesting issue...
FlexEffect has argued that the muscles of the face are smaller and recover faster, and therefore can be trained everyday. I personally had not heard before that smaller muscles recover significantly faster. I did Google this, and it appears that some people do think that smaller muscles recover a bit faster, but more in the opposite direction, meaning that larger muscles need more rest. Regardless, in bodybuilding circles, almost no one advocates training every day, but a few train every other day, though most train a muscle every 3-4 days.
But even if smaller muscles recover way faster, there is one other related thing that catches my attention about the advice to train every day. Serious bodybuilders always do multiple sets per muscle per training session, and never do only one set. Typically, you do 3-6 sets, but always a minimum of 3 sets. The idea is that by fatiguing the muscle as much as possible and then resting for a half a minute to a couple minutes, and then pushing the muscle again by doing more sets, you will place the best demands on your muscles to grow.
So my thinking is that if the FlexEffect advice is that smaller facial muscles can be trained everyday, then I would point out that that is because they recommend doing only one set. However, if you do, say, 3 sets, then I suspect that you won't be able to train every day...at least, I find that I cannot train my facial muscles every day if I do 3 sets per training session and I think I am getting more build this way.
Does that help explain my thinking better?
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| With the negative part, your describing how I thought the exercise was written – I'm not sure there is a difference? As from the demo it looks like even when Audrea contracts, she is trying to uncontract it with her hands (which is what I'm doing). So I guess its all good there. |
It's slightly different, but both are good 
| TheresaMary wrote: |
So with Ageless does this mean that the exercises there focus on negative pressure and FE favours positive pressure more. Thats interesting. Maybe we need to combine both positive/negative to get better workouts.
| cm5597 wrote: |
Negative pressure on a tissue is like sucking or pulling outwards on it, while positive pressure is like pushing inwards on it. I like alternating positive and negative approaches to massage.
HTH
I don't think that one of the two approaches is inherently more "positive" or "negative" based. In both FlexEffect and Ageless, you are initially pulling outwards on the muscles, though they have different hand placements and techniques.
However, the new edition of FlexEffect does introduce the idea of negative reps and the importance of the negative phase of the contraction. So, if anything, I would say that FlexEffect pays more attention to the negative phase, but still does so in a balanced way.
Just my 2 cents |
So maybe again we should be doing this with the FlexEffect exercises too? I get so confused with all this stuff. They always say they base their stuff on bodybuilding, but from what your sharing with us CM – it looks like they are telling us incorrect things to do which I'm really getting frustrated by.
| cm5597 wrote: |
| This is Miranda wrote: |
| I had a number of one-to-one sessions with the facial exerciser Eva Fraser and she always said the exercise will be less effective unless you slowly release the muscles. |
Yes, that's definitely true! |
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Oh dear! I hope I haven't made things less clear. The only thing that does not match the standard bodybuilding approach is just the frequency/volume of training--that is, how often to train and how many sets to do each session. Everything else matches the bodybuilding approach
| cm5597 wrote: |
| TheresaMary wrote: |
So with Ageless does this mean that the exercises there focus on negative pressure and FE favours positive pressure more. Thats interesting. Maybe we need to combine both positive/negative to get better workouts.
| cm5597 wrote: |
Negative pressure on a tissue is like sucking or pulling outwards on it, while positive pressure is like pushing inwards on it. I like alternating positive and negative approaches to massage.
HTH |
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I don't think that one of the two approaches is inherently more "positive" or "negative" based. In both FlexEffect and Ageless, you are initially pulling outwards on the muscles, though they have different hand placements and techniques.
However, the new edition of FlexEffect does introduce the idea of negative reps and the importance of the negative phase of the contraction. So, if anything, I would say that FlexEffect pays more attention to the negative phase, but still does so in a balanced way. |
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| Sorry its probably my inaccuracy here, but in Ageless, we pull the cheeks for example away from the face and then do an expression – and you said previously that negative pressure is pulling outwards, while positive is like pushing inwards – and with all the FlexEffect exercises we push inwards. |
If I understand what you are saying correctly, then I don't think that actually makes much of a difference to the muscle, as in both cases, you are are effectively pulling on the muscle, making it hard to contract (the muscle is parallel to the surface of the skin, but the positive push/negative pull that I think you are talking about is perpendicular to the skin). The place where I think positive and negative pressure come into play is with massage. Sorry, if what I say here appears to make no sense, just ignore it
| TheresaMary wrote: |
Its no wonder there are so many people unhappy with facial exercise programs, as they don't seem to tell us all the facts.
Theresa |
Well, I would say there is only one difference...and given that some people say that small muscles should be trained more often, it is reasonable for them to make the same argument. However, I still think if a person wants maximum build, it would be better to do more sets per training session but to train less often (every 2-3 days).
So that would be my only significant critique of the FlexEffect program: that it does not discuss the relationship between training frequency & volume and muscle build/size, and the fact that intermediates and the advanced may not want to train every day if they are going for maximum build in a muscle. But despite this one difference in training philosophy, I still am extremely happy with the FlexEffect program |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:13 pm |
| interesting, helpful post as usual, CM |
_________________
71 years, primarily raw living food 35 years(vegan 45 years) herbal tea decoctions, homeopathy, TCM, facial massage, facial exercises, vacu-lifting, gua aha, shiatsu/acupressure, intention, home microcurrrent |
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Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:21 pm |
Hi there...
I was just pointed to this thread as I haven't been following.
I've been out working in my yard all day, and I'm completely wiped... I'll try to quickly address a few things.
Regarding Negatives and our comprehension of them... you might want to take a look at Deb's explanation on workshop when it opened... and how she uses negatives to change things up... especially to trigger new growth.
Regarding Daily workout vs. every couple of days.
The thing to remember is that body builders generally continue to increase the weight they are lifting. So, when you first start out let's say you can curl 15 lbs. The next day your arms are SORE, and difficult to move. You MUST wait 2-3 days before hitting your arms again. You might then stay at 3 sets of 10 at 15 lbs again (for a while)... and you may or may not be as sore. As you gain strength, you increase the weight. Maybe 20 lbs... continue until you can lift 30, then 40, the 50...
However, you might go into an aerobics class 5 to 6 days a week, that involves always using 5 lbs weights. And you maybe go for a count of 30 or even to failure... and short of being extremely out of shape, you can easily pick up and do the exact same the next day... and still have physical improvement as well as muscle gain.
You might also take pilates or yoga daily. Build significant muscle over time... and generally in a nice graceful fashion. When you use your own body as your major source of resistance, working daily is not going to cause problems.
So, yes, Deb has always come at Facial Exercises from a bodybuilding perspective. Realizing of course, there is no incremental weight increase.... A MAJOR deviation from bodybuilding... And really you have to then look at it as you would other forms of exercise that us the body for resistance...as you grow stronger the same movements can hit a muscle with even more intensity than it has in the past.
Take an experienced ballet dancer (that's my world, and easier for me to explain), and a total beginner. Give the same exact combinations, set at the same exact pace. The newbie will be flailing all over the place, barely engaging any muscle, and perhaps not even break a sweat. The trained dancer can easily break a sweat in 5 minutes, because she engaging all the right muscles and is working at a totally different level of muscle comprehension...
The thing to remember is that someone like CM is quite knowledgeable about bodybuilding and also incredibly intuitive with her body. This is NOT the average situation at all. As you're aware many people spot train and cause serious imbalances due to lack of body/facial awareness added to desired goals added to lack of comprehension as to how to really achieve said goals.... (that's when all the nicknames for bizarre creations come about.)
In my opinion, much of this type of discussion is why we've added a training log. No two people are alike, with regard to training styles, goals, and ability to build. The most important thing you can do with regard to facial training, as any training you would do for the rest of your body, is to learn all the basics. Learn all the ways to hit your muscles. Learn how YOUR muscles respond. Once you've gained that self knowledge you will be able to apply the exercises to your own needs and goals.
Hope that helps, and doesn't seem to far off topic. Might I suggest, if you own the program, and you have questions about your personal situation that you hit the workshop. Because, as you hit the intermediate, advanced stages, your needs are more individual, and I'm not sure we can write a book to address all of those. |
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Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:34 am |
Actually since reading this thread initially - I discovered bodybuilding like facial exercises is a minefield of info. I've already found some sources saying that you should actually train everyday. Charles Atlas (who they seem to suggest is the granddaddy of bodybuilding) recommended people do his exercises daily - and that included doing up to 100 pushups in a day (50 morning and 50 at night). So I suppose there is conflicting information out there on bodybuilding as much as facial exercises. Its probably different for us all, and so I suppose the 5 reps 6 count thing is a guideline which we alter as time goes by based on our notes in the workout log. I don't know why - but when reading CM's post I had the sudden fear that we were all making major mistakes and stopping ourselves progressing.
Sorry for taking this thread off track, and next time I'll post in the forum, its just that I under the impression CM was a FE trainer so when she spoke earlier I got quite frustrated thinking it was important information I had missed somehow.
Thanks Claudia for clarifying those things. It makes more sense to me now. I had worried that we were all making mistakes based on what Cm had said, with the training not every day thing, but your mention of increasing the weight is something I hadn't considered and so I feel better now.
Theresa |
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Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:35 am |
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| Actually since reading this thread initially - I discovered bodybuilding like facial exercises is a minefield of info. I've already found some sources saying that you should actually train everyday. Charles Atlas (who they seem to suggest is the granddaddy of bodybuilding) recommended people do his exercises daily - and that included doing up to 100 pushups in a day (50 morning and 50 at night). |
Charles Atlas actually is a very interesting case, and is actually one of the exceptions. He had his own mail-order bodybuilding programs waaaayyyyy back in the day, and definitely was one of the big movers and shakers, no question. But he did have a different slant on bodybuilding in his own particular program than most bodybuilders today, focusing on something he called dynamic tension, i.e., no weights, but using muscles against each other. And the fact that he claimed to use no external weights alone tells you that his approach is not the norm. So he is definitely quite unconventional and his work is not at the heart of bodybuilding today, which is based on high *external* weight and low reps (rather than no external weight and higher reps, like Atlas advocated). For example, doing push-ups would not be considered a "high resistance" exercise, so of course, provided that you didn't do too many push-ups that you are sore the next day, you can of course do push-ups everything day, as he says....but it's a very rare person who is going to build large muscles on push-ups (to be frank, Atlas is small by today's standards and would not cut it in a bodybuilding contest). The only modern-day person I know who has very large muscles and follows an Atlas-inspired program of not using external weights is John Peterson, but he is not a competitive bodybuilder. Atlas was great, but as far as I know, he is not considered the granddaddy of bodybuilding by any means given his unconventional training ideas, and in fact, I don't think any one particular person is considered the granddaddy of bodybuilding. Just want to provide some helpful context and background on Atlas.
But yes, there is conflicting info out there and each person you talk to will have a slightly different approach, myself included I just wanted to present the consensus or the mainstream approach, which is "using high external weight, low reps, multiple sets, and not training daily". Though there are a myriad views on what exactly that looks like, that very carefully worded statement is very conservative, and no one would argue with you that that is not the mainstream bodybuilding approach when it comes to increasing muscle size.
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| So I suppose there is conflicting information out there on bodybuilding as much as facial exercises. Its probably different for us all, and so I suppose the 5 reps 6 count thing is a guideline which we alter as time goes by based on our notes in the workout log. I don't know why - but when reading CM's post I had the sudden fear that we were all making major mistakes and stopping ourselves progressing. |
No, definitely not You're totally fine I, myself, am naturally scrawny genetically, so knowing myself, I need something extra. Like I said, training every day or every other day was enough for *most* of the muscles of my face, but not all of them for me personally. I was just sharing my thoughts on how to get extra gains in case it would actually seriously help someone else who needs more gains in certain muscles and who is not achieving them otherwise. It's all about knowing whether you want tone or build in each muscle.
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| Sorry for taking this thread off track, and next time I'll post in the forum, its just that I under the impression CM was a FE trainer so when she spoke earlier I got quite frustrated thinking it was important information I had missed somehow. |
Sorry, Theresa! I thought for sure that you knew I wasn't a trainer based on the fact that we've crossed paths before on EDS a few times and we had exchanges that to me seemed like you knew I wasn't an FE trainer but just another person who's into facial exercises. Sorry if I misread you and I confused you by talking at length on bodybuilding philosophy!
| TheresaMary wrote: |
Thanks Claudia for clarifying those things. It makes more sense to me now. I had worried that we were all making mistakes based on what Cm had said, with the training not every day thing, but your mention of increasing the weight is something I hadn't considered and so I feel better now.
Theresa |
Cheers |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:25 am |
| ClaudiaFE wrote: |
| Regarding Negatives and our comprehension of them... you might want to take a look at Deb's explanation on workshop when it opened... and how she uses negatives to change things up... especially to trigger new growth. |
Deb also does an excellent job of covering this in the new book.
| ClaudiaFE wrote: |
Regarding Daily workout vs. every couple of days.
The thing to remember is that body builders generally continue to increase the weight they are lifting. So, when you first start out let's say you can curl 15 lbs. The next day your arms are SORE, and difficult to move. You MUST wait 2-3 days before hitting your arms again. You might then stay at 3 sets of 10 at 15 lbs again (for a while)... and you may or may not be as sore. As you gain strength, you increase the weight. Maybe 20 lbs... continue until you can lift 30, then 40, the 50...
However, you might go into an aerobics class 5 to 6 days a week, that involves always using 5 lbs weights. And you maybe go for a count of 30 or even to failure... and short of being extremely out of shape, you can easily pick up and do the exact same the next day... and still have physical improvement as well as muscle gain. |
I totally agree here on all points!
| ClaudiaFE wrote: |
You might also take pilates or yoga daily. Build significant muscle over time... and generally in a nice graceful fashion. When you use your own body as your major source of resistance, working daily is not going to cause problems.
So, yes, Deb has always come at Facial Exercises from a bodybuilding perspective. Realizing of course, there is no incremental weight increase.... A MAJOR deviation from bodybuilding... And really you have to then look at it as you would other forms of exercise that us the body for resistance...as you grow stronger the same movements can hit a muscle with even more intensity than it has in the past. |
Hmmmm....this is very interesting. I just assumed for these past 1 3/4 years that I've been doing FlexEffect that I should be incrementally increasing the weight as my muscles get stronger and stronger. So naturally, with my hands, I've been pulling on my muscles harder and harder with time, so as to increase the weight over time, just like in bodybuilding. Gosh, I just assumed that's what we were supposed to do, but come to think of it I don't recall it saying either way in the FlexEffect book.
Now I just assumed we were supposed to do the same thing in FlexEffect. Did I just assume something that wasn't supposed to be assumed? Claudia, can you elaborate more on why not to increase the effective weight with time by pulling harder?
| ClaudiaFE wrote: |
| Take an experienced ballet dancer (that's my world, and easier for me to explain), and a total beginner. Give the same exact combinations, set at the same exact pace. The newbie will be flailing all over the place, barely engaging any muscle, and perhaps not even break a sweat. The trained dancer can easily break a sweat in 5 minutes, because she engaging all the right muscles and is working at a totally different level of muscle comprehension... |
Right, so then even there is another subtlety I think that we can now address in using one's own body as the major source of resistance. Exercises that use one's own body as resistance tend to fall into two categories:
(1) those in which the applied weight of your body is fixed.
(2) those in which you can over time increase the applied weight.
An example of #1 would be a full body push-up, where your body weight provides the resistance, so naturally you cannot increase the resistance over time. Therefore, you might instead increase the reps or change up your hand position to keep the muscles challenged.
An example of #2 would be trying to curl one of your biceps while pushing against your wrist with the other hand. Over time, you could push harder with your opposing hand.
Now most bodyweight exercises tend to be type #1 exercises. However, most of the exercises in FlexEffect are actually of type #2, in that, if we wanted to, we could try to pull harder on the muscle with each training session, and therefore effectively incrementally increase the weight.
So if we want a lot more build (rather than just a little or just tone), Claudia, can you explain why we wouldn't want to increase the force we apply to our facial muscles over time? Or, do you think it depends on what a person's goals are for that particular muscle?
| ClaudiaFE wrote: |
The thing to remember is that someone like CM is quite knowledgeable about bodybuilding and also incredibly intuitive with her body. This is NOT the average situation at all. As you're aware many people spot train and cause serious imbalances due to lack of body/facial awareness added to desired goals added to lack of comprehension as to how to really achieve said goals.... (that's when all the nicknames for bizarre creations come about.)
In my opinion, much of this type of discussion is why we've added a training log. No two people are alike, with regard to training styles, goals, and ability to build. The most important thing you can do with regard to facial training, as any training you would do for the rest of your body, is to learn all the basics. Learn all the ways to hit your muscles. Learn how YOUR muscles respond. Once you've gained that self knowledge you will be able to apply the exercises to your own needs and goals.
Hope that helps, and doesn't seem to far off topic. Might I suggest, if you own the program, and you have questions about your personal situation that you hit the workshop. Because, as you hit the intermediate, advanced stages, your needs are more individual, and I'm not sure we can write a book to address all of those. |
Well said! Training is extremely individual. I wasn't trying to rock the boat or make particular specific recommendations for anyone, but rather to say that if you happen to be like me and have particular muscles that need a lot more build and training daily for a long time has not gotten you to where you want to be size-wise, you might want to consider a more aggressive bodybuilding-type approach for that particular muscle (...or, it could be other issues, such as your form/technique is not good enough or dietary insufficiencies, so those are worth considering, too). I don't see this as very different, as both FlexEffect and Ageless have bootcamp programs on their forums for this very purpose.
Anyhow, I just want people to know about the standard bodybuilding wisdom of the relationship between training weight/frequency/volume and muscle gains, so that people have another tool at their disposal to help them get the results they want. It always kills me figuratively speaking when someone gives up on something prematurely when they just needed a little extra to get what they really wanted. And I sincerely just want to help. I generally only try to post if I'm learning from others or think that I have something to say that could significantly help someone else out there, so I'm really sorry if this is confusing people or making people think that there are all these contradictions when there aren't. If so, just ignore my posts |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:48 am |
| cm5597 wrote: |
| TheresaMary wrote: |
CM
I got to ask your opinion, do you think Deb and the others who recommend working out daily are wrong to make that suggestion then? Why do they do make that suggestion - as from what you say, its clearly a mistake if we're wanting to get stronger muscles and build. I might give that a go with the reps, but just want to check. |
I think training is an individual thing and different people will need different approaches, and even the same people will want to mix up their training frequency (e.g., periodization). Just like in body exercises, sometimes you want to train every day, sometimes you want to train every other day, and sometimes for some muscles you might want to train them very hard but only every four days. It all depends on your goals for that muscle group, your genetics, your recuperation time, your current ability, etc.
In the FlexEffect program, beginners are clearly advised to train every day. I think this is great advice to follow for the first 6 months or longer, and the reason why is in the beginning your activating dormant muscle fibers and increasing strength and muscle recuperation time, plus people are starting to become aware of things like how their natural strengths and weakness affect their facial symmetry, and so on. So it makes sense to focus higher reps, lower weight, and higher training frequency in order to gain control of the muscle, slowly activating more and more fibers and preparing the muscle for increasingly intense workouts.
However, in the FlexEffect program, it is a little more unclear what intermediates should do training-wise. In a majority of cases, I've heard that intermediates should train every day, but in some cases, I have heard that it's very individual. In the second edition, the intermediate trainer is still advised to train every day, so I don't know whether FlexEffect's view on this has changed.
My personal opinion is yes, that the intermediate and advanced exerciser should not automatically just train every day, but should consider their goals for each muscle group, the rate at which they make gains in muscle size for each muscle, and their recovery time. For example, for me, there are some muscles I have trained every day, some I train every other day, and some I train every third day. Right now, I'm currently experimenting with training every muscle either every 2 or 3 days, because I'd rather work harder and rest longer than train more often. |
Just re-quoting this in order to be more clear about what exactly I'm trying to get at. I think I was at my "clearest" in the above post |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:38 am |
Yep he definitely is and his dynamic tension from what I can gather is just using the body as resistance. The push up examples was probably my bad description, but basically according to one of his exercises he has you do push up's between a chair and you go to the furtherest point and higest point at both ends of the movement. Its probably called something else but I don't know the proper name, but its utilising the stretching and resistance. Its interesting though that you say "not at the heart of bodybuilding" because from the stuff I've been reading, there are so many differences I'm not sure other than building mass that there is a heart. His reps are not low though - he advocates 100 of the push up exercises. He reckons that by his method you would increase your chest width by a couple of inches in 2-3 weeks. What your presenting as the "mainstream" consensus is just your interpretation of those, and I'm sure just as this thread has revealed there are many things that the pros do that aren't written down (which is good but frustrating at the same time).
| cm5597 wrote: |
Charles Atlas actually is a very interesting case, and is actually one of the exceptions. He had his own mail-order bodybuilding programs waaaayyyyy back in the day, and definitely was one of the big movers and shakers, no question. But he did have a different slant on bodybuilding in his own particular program than most bodybuilders today, focusing on something he called dynamic tension, i.e., no weights, but using muscles against each other. And the fact that he claimed to use no external weights alone tells you that his approach is not the norm. So he is definitely quite unconventional and his work is not at the heart of bodybuilding today, which is based on high *external* weight and low reps (rather than no external weight and higher reps, like Atlas advocated). For example, doing push-ups would not be considered a "high resistance" exercise, so of course, provided that you didn't do too many push-ups that you are sore the next day, you can of course do push-ups everything day, as he says....but it's a very rare person who is going to build large muscles on push-ups (to be frank, Atlas is small by today's standards and would not cut it in a bodybuilding contest). The only modern-day person I know who has very large muscles and follows an Atlas-inspired program of not using external weights is John Peterson, but he is not a competitive bodybuilder. Atlas was great, but as far as I know, he is not considered the granddaddy of bodybuilding by any means given his unconventional training ideas, and in fact, I don't think any one particular person is considered the granddaddy of bodybuilding. Just want to provide some helpful context and background on Atlas.
But yes, there is conflicting info out there and each person you talk to will have a slightly different approach, myself included I just wanted to present the consensus or the mainstream approach, which is "using high external weight, low reps, multiple sets, and not training daily". Though there are a myriad views on what exactly that looks like, that very carefully worded statement is very conservative, and no one would argue with you that that is not the mainstream bodybuilding approach when it comes to increasing muscle size. |
| cm5597 wrote: |
| No, definitely not You're totally fine I, myself, am naturally scrawny genetically, so knowing myself, I need something extra. Like I said, training every day or every other day was enough for *most* of the muscles of my face, but not all of them for me personally. I was just sharing my thoughts on how to get extra gains in case it would actually seriously help someone else who needs more gains in certain muscles and who is not achieving them otherwise. It's all about knowing whether you want tone or build in each muscle. |
How exactly do you know (and sorry hope you don't mind me asking 101 questions) that you were not getting build equally. I'm confused sometimes as to how to know if the exercises in some areas have results. I know my face feels firmer but I have doubts sometimes and so I was going to try the suggestions about mixing up the routine like Deb outlined in the book. I thought it really interesting though where she even says if your pushed for time to train the upper face one day, lower face the next as I could do that just like bodybuilders do their training.
| cm5597 wrote: |
| Sorry, Theresa! I thought for sure that you knew I wasn't a trainer based on the fact that we've crossed paths before on EDS a few times and we had exchanges that to me seemed like you knew I wasn't an FE trainer but just another person who's into facial exercises. Sorry if I misread you and I confused you by talking at length on bodybuilding philosophy! |
Not at all, its good to clarify these things. I suppose I probably just made the assumption because you were talking about muscles and all and so in my mind I equalled you as a trainer. Easy mistake to make.
Theresa |
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Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:54 am |
| interesting conversation (TM..love you are saying about Atlas' perspective on dynamic resistance) I know that there is a set of shoulder exercises that i try to do every day (there are whole periods of time that i don't though..since i have been doing these for almost 15 years).. i do 75 reps. 1 set each, of 6 different exercises.. using body resistance rather than weights..and i get very high def and toning..but don't build up significantly at all(i like the look, though) |
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71 years, primarily raw living food 35 years(vegan 45 years) herbal tea decoctions, homeopathy, TCM, facial massage, facial exercises, vacu-lifting, gua aha, shiatsu/acupressure, intention, home microcurrrent |
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Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:50 am |
Hey TheresaMary
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| What your presenting as the "mainstream" consensus is just your interpretation of those... |
Sorry this is getting confusing--and it's my fault for not be clear and specific enough, sorry, I didn't think through how everything would come across--but what I mean is the mainstream approach for serious competitive bodybuilders--i.e., those that complete in bodybuilding contests, think: Mr. & Ms. Olympia (http://www.mrolympia.com/), "Muscle and Fitness" magazine, etc. When I mean "mainstream bodybuilding approach", I am intending to mean "for people who compete in serious bodybuilding contests"...once you include fitness models and the general world of building muscle, then yes, there is no mainstream approach (btw, the homepage of Mr. Olympia has examples of bodybuilding vs fitness/figure models, so you can see the difference). But at the extreme end of bodybuilding for maximum muscle size there is indeed a consensus on a general approach, which is the conservative statement I made in quotes (and is not an interpretation). It looks like some of the material you are looking at might falls more under fitness model territory than the extreme end of bodybuilding that I am referring to. Sorry, I should have been more clear about what subset of the muscle-building world I am talking about.
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| How exactly do you know (and sorry hope you don't mind me asking 101 questions) that you were not getting build equally. |
I can both see and feel the difference. On my particular face, you can feel a large difference in the amount of tissue that you can grab on the front of my cheeks versus the sides and lower part of the cheeks. I also grab my boyfriend's cheeks from time to time for comparison, as his cheeks are full I started off with much much less tissue in all areas of my cheeks, but have now surpassed him on the front and upper parts of my cheeks, but still lag him on the lower and side parts of my cheeks, though have made significant gains.
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| I'm confused sometimes as to how to know if the exercises in some areas have results. I know my face feels firmer but I have doubts sometimes and so I was going to try the suggestions about mixing up the routine like Deb outlined in the book. I thought it really interesting though where she even says if your pushed for time to train the upper face one day, lower face the next as I could do that just like bodybuilders do their training. |
FlexEffect and other programs have good advice about doing touch tests, taking photos, working with trainers, have others periodically evaluate your face, etc. Claudia and the FlexEffect trainers can give you great advice on what specifically to do.
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| cm5597 wrote: |
| Sorry, Theresa! I thought for sure that you knew I wasn't a trainer based on the fact that we've crossed paths before on EDS a few times and we had exchanges that to me seemed like you knew I wasn't an FE trainer but just another person who's into facial exercises. Sorry if I misread you and I confused you by talking at length on bodybuilding philosophy! |
Not at all, its good to clarify these things. I suppose I probably just made the assumption because you were talking about muscles and all and so in my mind I equalled you as a trainer. Easy mistake to make.
Theresa |
Yes, sorry again for confusing you and causing you frustration! I didn't mean to, and was just trying to add some more ideas of what people could do if they have serious issues with gauntness and need a lot more build, as it's an issue that's near and dear to my heart, as I'm been dealing with a gaunt/thin face for years so...so am always passionate about the topic! lol |
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34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:55 pm |
CM... Yes, I agree that overtime you will probably increase the amt. of resistance using FE, but it's just with your hands. And Pressure with massage and such.
Individual experience (yours is a great example) will teach the individual what they need to do. Some people are not so intuitive, and we are perhaps slower in suggesting this approach. I guarantee you a total newbie will read your post (not to discourage them, as they are awesome), and try something you suggest, and then come complain about how FE damaged their face. Really, how they followed someone elses routine and it didn't work for them. (Did you ever see the Will and Grace episode where Grace follows a trainer and client copying their routine for weeks, and then complains that her tush is getting bigger? The goal of his client?? LOL... makes me laugh everytime... and totally applies here.)
All that said, even though you can increase the resistance it's still not EXACTLY the same as bodybuilding, as you are not likely to ever be able to apply enough resistance and yank your face so hard that you tear a muscle (it's not natural to ignore your body signals that way), or impose bad form so much that you genuinely hurt yourself. These are things that a body builder (granted one that needs more training) can do. By stacking a rack too heavy or such. So, yes, take an extreme example like powerlifting, and you'll hear of guys that tried to much and literally split their sternums with an overhead press. Unless you're lacking that je ne sais quoi that stops you from hurting yourself... |
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Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:04 pm |
Also... CM brings up a great point... are you talking bodybuilding? Or Fitness Model Bodies...
Interestingly enough, when Deb was a competitive body builder... With the exception of a few extremists for the time... Female body builders could easily have been compared to today's fitness models. I think both take their looks quite serious.
In the end... something like FE is to give you tools to meet YOUR PERSONAL GOALS... and realize that we have all types doing this... some want to add a little fullness, others attack certain lines with a vengeance, some look to stave off aging as long as possible... There are many roads to these ends... Some get REALLY INVOLVED... ahem.. CM??? Others want to get in and get out...(I won't list names...) Try to look at each others PERSONAL routes as interesting alternatives... but NOT THE ONLY way to get there... some are the direct and short route, some have lots of turns and curves and all sections are enjoyed. Others make wrong turns and then have to backtrack...
Hope that helps a little... |
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Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:38 pm |
| ClaudiaFE wrote: |
Also... CM brings up a great point... are you talking bodybuilding? Or Fitness Model Bodies...
Interestingly enough, when Deb was a competitive body builder... With the exception of a few extremists for the time... Female body builders could easily have been compared to today's fitness models. I think both take their looks quite serious.
In the end... something like FE is to give you tools to meet YOUR PERSONAL GOALS... and realize that we have all types doing this... some want to add a little fullness, others attack certain lines with a vengeance, some look to stave off aging as long as possible... There are many roads to these ends... Some get REALLY INVOLVED... ahem.. CM??? Others want to get in and get out...(I won't list names...) Try to look at each others PERSONAL routes as interesting alternatives... but NOT THE ONLY way to get there... some are the direct and short route, some have lots of turns and curves and all sections are enjoyed. Others make wrong turns and then have to backtrack...
Hope that helps a little... |
Totally agree!
And despite the fact that I talk a lot about bodybuilding, I train some muscles
* like ballerina
* some like a fitness model
* some like a hardcore bodybuilder
Again, it all depends on your goals for that muscle and your overall body response to training.
I would hate for people to blindly copy what I (or anyone else) is doing, and to be unhappy with the results.... So on that note and because I don't want this to be blown out of proportion--it's really just one tool in one's whole toolkit of training approaches, nothing more or less---I think I've said enough about experimenting with a more bodybuilding approach, and the info is there for those few who might want to experiment with it |
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34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:02 pm |
Regarding your diet and skin, somewhere on youtube there is an interview with a 71 year old woman voted Sexiest Vegan or similar. She looks like she is maybe 50. Slim body, no surgery or botox, boyfriend twenty years younger. She said eating a raw, vegan diet changed her life. She's never been to the doctor, never gets sick, seldom exercises but is slim. The only thing she needs is blepheroplasty and to tweeze her eyebrows. I want to say her last name is Kirk but I'm not sure. If someone knows, please post the link.
I need to eat more raw fruits and veggies. After all this Easter candy is gone... |
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Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:48 pm |
| SoftSkin wrote: |
Regarding your diet and skin, somewhere on youtube there is an interview with a 71 year old woman voted Sexiest Vegan or similar. She looks like she is maybe 50. Slim body, no surgery or botox, boyfriend twenty years younger. She said eating a raw, vegan diet changed her life. She's never been to the doctor, never gets sick, seldom exercises but is slim. The only thing she needs is blepheroplasty and to tweeze her eyebrows. I want to say her last name is Kirk but I'm not sure. If someone knows, please post the link.
I need to eat more raw fruits and veggies. After all this Easter candy is gone... |
Hi Softskin,
Her name is Mimi Kirk. Here's a link to the PETA page that made her famous:
http://prime.peta.org/contest-sexyveg-over50-winners.php
I definitely think eating lots of raw fruits and veggies does amazing things. And particularly great are green smoothies.
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34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:21 am |
In regards of the reference CM has done to my posts I am going to make a little recap here regarding the suction massage she has mentioned:
Thnx CM, BTW I do too not exercise as often as daily. When I first began doing it upon a suggestion of a program did not get nice results, so I think CM’s approach is quite similar to mine, less and intense = more at the end. Also alternating exercises-routines to challenge the muscles.
This is the post at EDS CM referred to:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=33970&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=400 (page 17)
The tissue expansion and tissue growth by mechanical action has been researched and studied. I am not the one who states that principle. But the one who tried it by myself.
This thread a FE was actually when I first discovered the suctioning massage (is at the open forum so anyone should be able to access):
http://flexeffect.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1595
Few observations below copied from pm’s and notes:
From day one using the cupping set I somehow felt like contracting the muscles underneath (specially the cheeks muscles). As many of you know I do facial exercises and maybe that call came from my face being used to contract as an instinct of any external force applied to it.
At the very beginning I overdid the suctioning accidentally and ended up with swelling, encouraged by that (the mad professor in me) I started using the massage to actually “change” the shape on my face. As an isolated experiment worked but what I liked the most what the replacement of volumes on my face.
As I kept working with it I saw results where not only a day plumping after a massage session, but actually staying longer. To the point I went for a vacation of 2 weeks and forgot my cupping set. The results, thickness, appearance and plumpness on my face did not fade over 3 weeks of non use of the set.
At some point the results were not temporal but staying. (not a change in diet life style or weight)
Then I got sick and you know the rest of the story….
That is pretty much what I did and still do with an slight difference in results now. I can tell I have gained actual fat on my cheeks specially. Not only inflamation or muscle enlargement.
I know 'cause recently I had one of those test where they get that machine (like a tweezer) that gets a bunch of flesh and determines percentages of fibers.
I had gain actual fat in my cheeks compared to two years ago (that was the last time I had the same test done) I have gained a 23% more fat in the area.
I have tons of theories in my mind and have no clue of what exactly happened. However I suspect it is related to my hepatitis and being so skinny... when i was putting weight on, I was stimulating my face all the time to increase the volumes, and probably the blood increasing, muscles increasing and tissues in general increasing have been related to increase of fat too.
My weight right now is in my normal range.
Hope this helps, but really, I am not an scientist so I can't tell for sure how this has happened, just that it has happened.
Regarding the tools:
I have the vaculifters, the cupping set and the one with the bulb and the glass that also came with the venom extractor syringe type. At the time I discovered this I was really into it and decide to test different units.
I think the vaculift could do the trick, however I personally like the cupping set over the vacu. It is just a matter of personal taste, and, sometimes I really like to challenge things and use contraction of muscles while suctioning and get a better grip with the cupping set and an stronger suction. It keeps being my first choice
I haven't find anyone else who uses contractions on muscles while using an strong suction over the muscle at the same time. Maybe that's a factor to consider.
For me the vaculifter goes only to the point it has been designed to accomplish: wich is a massage. The cups I have can perform a massage or go further in suctioning therefore getting more tissue involved than just superficial.
I think suctioning the muscle while is active = contracted, has a lot to do with the increased volume and gaining tissue related to it.
Now, my advise to anyone considering on trying this:
I really think intuition is something to listen. If it wasn't 'cause I've followed mine I wouldn't have make great findings.
Research as much as you can and get educated about it. If after doing your home work this is still sounds like something you want to try go for it. Otherwise do not attempt it.
Keep in mind that I have no other experience in this than mine, and as we all know, we are so different from others. What works for you could not work for me….
Pretty much all what I have done and know is here. There is not much to add from my side, just that I know how it feels when you look at the mirror and you don’t recognize yourself… But thankfully that is something we can, mostly, stop or reverse by ourselves thanks to places like EDS.
Sorry for my long post. I should post more often instead once every here and there with tons of information….
ETA: Excuse my english |
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Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:21 pm |
Just found this on the net. It is referred to breast pumps, but what it says could apply to what I did in my face:
| Quote: |
| First, it will stretch skin causing an increased production of collagen and elastin. Second, the vacuum effect will draw fluids and fat into the breast causing a temporary and sometimes permanent swelling of the organic tissue. The final results seem to have a lot to do with the strength, direction, continuity and regulation of the suction effect. |
From: http://www.breast-plastic-surgery.org/breast-enlargement-pumps.html |
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Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:01 am |
| This is Miranda wrote: |
| SandraD4880 wrote: |
I think Angelina Jolie looked MUCH better in the movie Hackers than anything else she's ever been in. She looks scary now, and those arms need some meat! |
This is an interesting topic. I've been thinking of ways to make my face look plumper although I loathe the idea of fillers. For years I've wanted to find a way to fill out my sharp facial angles but this thread has got me thinking that I'm actually lucky that I have a gaunt face.
Sandra you're right, when AJ looked better will have differing opinions. But if she had kept her plump face as in Hackers, as she's aged, she would have alot more problems now keeping it in place as there would be alot of flesh able to head south as each year goes by. I guess in a weird way you can compare it to breasts  Think large ones v small pert ones - which age better? OK so full cheeks don't carry the same amount of weight as a large boob but you don't get to hold your cheeks up from gravity with a bra.
There is one problem with many people with gaunt faces; their face will be gaunt because they don't eat enough (defo AJ but I got the impression this wasn't the case with Mowgli). If you eat well but are naturally slim (I'm never far from 116lbs at 5ft 7in, am married to a food obsessed Italian, never dieted in my life and eat like a pig!), then believe me, a face more on the gaunt side later in life is a good thing. I can speak from personal experience on that point! When I look at my peers and wonder why many look older than me, it's nearly always because their faces are more plump and gravity has taken a its toll.
I don't think I look too bad for 41 11/12th's !! But you can see the sharp angles under my cheekbones - these were much fuller in my 20's so my face was round.
Sorry excuse the life-size portrait... still can't work out how to make the images smaller  |
Hi Miranda I was looking for pictures of gaunt celebrities and your photo came up among my top hits in in my Google image search. Anyhow, I just wanted to let you know in case you mind having people outside of EDS stumble upon your photo.... I thought you might want to know this. Hope you are well |
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34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:31 pm |
| Hi CM, thanks for the warning. I don't actually know how to delete the photo. I can't remove it from the photo site as I did it as a guest rather than member. And I don't think I can delete the post from EDS. But I'll definitely have to look into it though. |
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havana8
Moderator
 
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 3449
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Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:46 pm |
| This is Miranda wrote: |
| Hi CM, thanks for the warning. I don't actually know how to delete the photo. I can't remove it from the photo site as I did it as a guest rather than member. And I don't think I can delete the post from EDS. But I'll definitely have to look into it though. |
Miranda, if you point out the posts with your photo via the 'report' function, I will delete the links for you… assuming that is something you would like of course! |
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Daisee
New Member
Joined: 25 Jun 2011
Posts: 1
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Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:00 am |
| I don't want to discourage anyone but would like to relate my experience. I developed a gaunt face over the last few years while doing facial exercises. Aggressive facial training isn't for everyone, it may work for some, especially younger faces but it did little for mine. I lost a lot of facial fat from this aggressive program and while it did pull up some of the sagging, it increased the lines on my face, yet I kept being told to stick with it, that facial exercise doesn't create a line, it exposes it. Wow, did I ever end up with a lot of exposed lines, some of which remain to this day. I stuck with it long enough but my face kept getting worse not better. I haven't quit facial exercises all together but have introduced lighter forms of various facial exercise programs. My face is starting to recover somewhat, yet I'm hoping the lines, and gaunt look will follow suit and disappear. I don't know what to do outside of putting on more weight? |
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Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:27 am |
This is a very interesting thread, esp as I always thought facial exercises will deepen wrinkles...
If I had the gaunt face problem I would deal with it first with a collagen injection to test out the waters and make sure I like the result (it is reversible) and then with fat transfer which is a little more close to permanent. |
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:29 am |
Hey Daisee - don't worry we've all had our ups and downs with facial exercises (me more than most) but I think that depending on where your starting from does effect everything. I've heard it argued again and again that age isn't a factor - but I started in my 50's and it most certainly is a factor. Don't know your age, but just wanted to add that in case you were the same age. I've come through the other side of the tunnel though and wouldn't be without facial exercises.
| Daisee wrote: |
| I don't want to discourage anyone but would like to relate my experience. I developed a gaunt face over the last few years while doing facial exercises. Aggressive facial training isn't for everyone, it may work for some, especially younger faces but it did little for mine. I lost a lot of facial fat from this aggressive program and while it did pull up some of the sagging, it increased the lines on my face, yet I kept being told to stick with it, that facial exercise doesn't create a line, it exposes it. Wow, did I ever end up with a lot of exposed lines, some of which remain to this day. I stuck with it long enough but my face kept getting worse not better. I haven't quit facial exercises all together but have introduced lighter forms of various facial exercise programs. My face is starting to recover somewhat, yet I'm hoping the lines, and gaunt look will follow suit and disappear. I don't know what to do outside of putting on more weight? |
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