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Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:13 pm  |
I believe this study is on Nicotinamide which is the precursor to Nicotonic Acid - which everyone has been so concerned about here. Hopefully Lacy will comment - I'm not very good at understanding scientific articles. Although, it is pointed out that this study was carried out on test tube yeast, not on human skin. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:16 pm |
Very interesting I have noticed his answers tend to err on the side of caution though. Here is what Dr. Torodov's answer was:
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| This is an interesting data. Unfortunately, this is in yeast in test tube and it is hard o extrapolate to typical real life use in humans. But in the meantime it may be wise to use topical niacinamide periodically (rather than continuously) -- for those who wish to use it. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:35 pm |
Yeh, I noticed that. I tried to do a quick search on this and it brought me to the ImmInst.org forum. It seems like the consensus over there is that Niacinamide has been shown in several studies that it inhibit something called SIRT1 which in turn leads to pro-aging. The weird thing is that the Nicontic Acid form which is the flush form does not inhibit the SIRT1 gene.
I have not had time to look on Pubmed but at this link they do state there are plenty of studies, besides that one on the Smartskincare site, that show that the Niacinamide form inhibits SIRT1 gene.
www(dot)imminst.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=4881&hl=niacin&s= |
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Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:08 pm |
This is the study;
http://www.jbc.org/content/277/47/45099.full
The possible *dangers* are in regard to high dose oral therapy for conditions such as; anxiety, osteoarthritis, and psychosis. It is currently being in clinical trials as a therapy for cancer and type I diabetes. |
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♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:28 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
This is the study;
http://www.jbc.org/content/277/47/45099.full
The possible *dangers* are in regard to high dose oral therapy for conditions such as; anxiety, osteoarthritis, and psychosis. It is currently being in clinical trials as a therapy for cancer and type I diabetes. |
Yeh that is one of the numerous studies. As stated at that other link there are more but I haven't had the time to look them up on Pubmed.
The study referenced at Smartskincare was done in test tubes with yeast so that is hard to equate it to oral therapy. The importance of that study is that the Niacinamide showed to inhibit the SIRT1 gene. |
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Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:37 pm |
| maxon782 wrote: |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
This is the study;
http://www.jbc.org/content/277/47/45099.full
The possible *dangers* are in regard to high dose oral therapy for conditions such as; anxiety, osteoarthritis, and psychosis. It is currently being in clinical trials as a therapy for cancer and type I diabetes. |
Yeh that is one of the numerous studies. As stated at that other link there are more but I haven't had the time to look them up on Pubmed.
The study referenced at Smartskincare was done in test tubes with yeast so that is hard to equate it to oral therapy. The importance of that study is that the Niacinamide showed to inhibit the SIRT1 gene. |
The link to the post you provided, is where I found the study;
Hello Dr:
There was a study done a few years back about niacinamide that found it to be a potent INHIBITOR of SIRT1 which can lead to pro-aging. There is some belief that the use of topical niacinamide, since it is a potent inhibitor of SIRT1, will inhibit SIRT1 in surrounding skin tissues by altering the NAD/NAD+ ratio.
Since the inhibiting of SIRT1 can lead to pro-aging, does this mean that topical niacinamide could lead to pro-aging in the skin?
This is the study link referencing the inhibition of SIRT1 by niacinamide:
jbc.org/cgi/content/full/277/47/45099
Just copy and paste into your browser...  |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:42 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
| maxon782 wrote: |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
This is the study;
http://www.jbc.org/content/277/47/45099.full
The possible *dangers* are in regard to high dose oral therapy for conditions such as; anxiety, osteoarthritis, and psychosis. It is currently being in clinical trials as a therapy for cancer and type I diabetes. |
Yeh that is one of the numerous studies. As stated at that other link there are more but I haven't had the time to look them up on Pubmed.
The study referenced at Smartskincare was done in test tubes with yeast so that is hard to equate it to oral therapy. The importance of that study is that the Niacinamide showed to inhibit the SIRT1 gene. |
The link to the post you provided, is where I found the study;
Hello Dr:
There was a study done a few years back about niacinamide that found it to be a potent INHIBITOR of SIRT1 which can lead to pro-aging. There is some belief that the use of topical niacinamide, since it is a potent inhibitor of SIRT1, will inhibit SIRT1 in surrounding skin tissues by altering the NAD/NAD+ ratio.
Since the inhibiting of SIRT1 can lead to pro-aging, does this mean that topical niacinamide could lead to pro-aging in the skin?
This is the study link referencing the inhibition of SIRT1 by niacinamide:
jbc.org/cgi/content/full/277/47/45099
Just copy and paste into your browser... |
Ah...I see. I was reading up on this at the imminst boards so that was the link I was referencing. |
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Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:59 pm |
| So using the niacinamide serum we have discussed here before to reduce chance of irritation when using retinoids may not be a good idea then either. |
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Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:28 pm |
I found this online while doing a search:
On pubmed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1693948...Pubmed_RVDocSum
Article: "Nicotinamide extends replicative lifespan of human cells"
"We found that an ongoing application of nicotinamide to normal human fibroblasts not only attenuated expression of the aging phenotype but also increased their replicative lifespan, causing a greater than 1.6-fold increase in the number of population doublings. Although nicotinamide by itself does not act as an antioxidant, the cells cultured in the presence of nicotinamide exhibited reduced levels of reactive oxygen species (ROS) and oxidative damage products associated with cellular senescence, and a decelerated telomere shortening rate without a detectable increase in telomerase activity. Furthermore, in the treated cells growing beyond the original Hayflick limit, the levels of p53, p21WAF1, and phospho-Rb proteins were similar to those in actively proliferating cells. The nicotinamide treatment caused a decrease in ATP levels, which was stably maintained until the delayed senescence point. Nicotinamide-treated cells also maintained high mitochondrial membrane potential but a lower respiration rate and superoxide anion level. Taken together, in contrast to its demonstrated pro-aging effect in yeast, nicotinamide extends the lifespan of human fibroblasts, possibly through reduction in mitochondrial activity and ROS production."
In addition in the article: Niacinamide: Silencing the Aging Gene ( http://www.vrp.com/articles.aspx?ProdID=art397&zTYPE=2 )
They state that Niacinamde as a nutrient enhances Sir2p to slow and reverse the aging process.
"Recent research has identified genes that influence longevity. In particular, a gene labeled, Sir2, for silent information regulator 2, has been shown to produce a protein, Sir2p, that extends cell life. Recent research has shown that Sir2p is a NAD-dependent histone deacetylase that connects metabolism, gene silencing, and cellular life extension (Imai, et.al. 2000). Niacinamide, by increasing NAD, enhances Sir2p activity.
Caloric restricted diets have long been known for their ability to extend the lifespan by slowing metabolism. NAD is essential in cellular metabolism. It was proposed by
MIT researchers that by slowing metabolism NAD is spared, thereby enhancing Sir2p activity. Increasing intracellular NAD not only mimics the metabolic benefits of calorie restricted diets, but also helps maintain a balance of silent and active genes. Nutritional supplementation with niacinamide, as mentioned earlier, is an effective way to increase intracellular NAD levels." |
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Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:46 pm |
| Monica34 wrote: |
I found this online while doing a search:
On pubmed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1693948...Pubmed_RVDocSum
Article: "Nicotinamide extends replicative lifespan of human cells"
"We found that an ongoing application of nicotinamide to normal human fibroblasts not only attenuated expression of the aging phenotype but also increased their replicative lifespan, causing a greater than 1.6-fold increase in the number of population doublings. Although nicotinamide by itself does not act as an antioxidant, the cells cultured in the presence of nicotinamide exhibited reduced levels of reactive oxygen species (ROS) and oxidative damage products associated with cellular senescence, and a decelerated telomere shortening rate without a detectable increase in telomerase activity. Furthermore, in the treated cells growing beyond the original Hayflick limit, the levels of p53, p21WAF1, and phospho-Rb proteins were similar to those in actively proliferating cells. The nicotinamide treatment caused a decrease in ATP levels, which was stably maintained until the delayed senescence point. Nicotinamide-treated cells also maintained high mitochondrial membrane potential but a lower respiration rate and superoxide anion level. Taken together, in contrast to its demonstrated pro-aging effect in yeast, nicotinamide extends the lifespan of human fibroblasts, possibly through reduction in mitochondrial activity and ROS production."
In addition in the article: Niacinamide: Silencing the Aging Gene ( http://www.vrp.com/articles.aspx?ProdID=art397&zTYPE=2 )
They state that Niacinamde as a nutrient enhances Sir2p to slow and reverse the aging process.
"Recent research has identified genes that influence longevity. In particular, a gene labeled, Sir2, for silent information regulator 2, has been shown to produce a protein, Sir2p, that extends cell life. Recent research has shown that Sir2p is a NAD-dependent histone deacetylase that connects metabolism, gene silencing, and cellular life extension (Imai, et.al. 2000). Niacinamide, by increasing NAD, enhances Sir2p activity.
Caloric restricted diets have long been known for their ability to extend the lifespan by slowing metabolism. NAD is essential in cellular metabolism. It was proposed by
MIT researchers that by slowing metabolism NAD is spared, thereby enhancing Sir2p activity. Increasing intracellular NAD not only mimics the metabolic benefits of calorie restricted diets, but also helps maintain a balance of silent and active genes. Nutritional supplementation with niacinamide, as mentioned earlier, is an effective way to increase intracellular NAD levels." |
Monica:
The Nicotinamide is a combination of niacinamide and nicotinic acid. The studies show that for some reason niacinamide alone does inhibit SIRT1 while the nicotinic acid alone does not. Maybe with the combination of the two it some how counteracts Niacinamide's potential to be pro-aging.
It is interesting that Nia24 products, which get good reviews on different sites on the net, utilize the Pro-Niacin form of niacin which is the Nicotinic Acid form...not the niacinamide form. |
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Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:02 pm |
| That's interesting. Olay uses niacinamide in a lot of their formulations, touting it as "anti-aging". . . when the opposite may be true. |
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Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:10 pm |
| 3rd.oculus wrote: |
| That's interesting. Olay uses niacinamide in a lot of their formulations, touting it as "anti-aging". . . when the opposite may be true. |
Yeh, the bad thing about the inhibition of SIRT1 is that it is a process that the results of it might not been seen in the short term, but will show up in the long term.
So, you might see some of the immediate benefits of topical Niacinamide like the reduction of hyperpigmentation or the moisturization it provides, but as a result of the SIRT1 inhibition, that could lead to pro-aging in the skin, would show up years later.
Nia24 is smart to use the Nicotinic Acid form since at least the studies show that it does not inhibit SIRT1...like Niacinamide does |
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:59 am |
Monica:
The Nicotinamide is a combination of niacinamide and nicotinic acid. The studies show that for some reason niacinamide alone does inhibit SIRT1 while the nicotinic acid alone does not. Maybe with the combination of the two it some how counteracts Niacinamide's potential to be pro-aging.
It is interesting that Nia24 products, which get good reviews on different sites on the net, utilize the Pro-Niacin form of niacin which is the Nicotinic Acid form...not the niacinamide form.[/quote]
Ohhh, thanks so much for explaining  |
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:57 pm |
| maxon782 wrote: |
| 3rd.oculus wrote: |
| That's interesting. Olay uses niacinamide in a lot of their formulations, touting it as "anti-aging". . . when the opposite may be true. |
Yeh, the bad thing about the inhibition of SIRT1 is that it is a process that the results of it might not been seen in the short term, but will show up in the long term.
So, you might see some of the immediate benefits of topical Niacinamide like the reduction of hyperpigmentation or the moisturization it provides, but as a result of the SIRT1 inhibition, that could lead to pro-aging in the skin, would show up years later.
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Hm, that sounds similar to some theories about DMAE - that it plumps up your skin in the short-term, but may not be good in the long term. |
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:01 pm |
| 3rd.oculus wrote: |
Hm, that sounds similar to some theories about DMAE - that it plumps up your skin in the short-term, but may not be good in the long term. |
I agree. That is what it sounds like. I know Hannah from SAS recommends only intermittent use of DMAE. I wonder what her take on the niacinamide is. |
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:14 pm |
I think everyone needs to do some more research on this. If you Google "Niacinamide benefits to skin" so much information comes up it's overwhelming. All of it seems to state that Niacinimide is very beneficial in terms of skin brightening and anti-aging and I have not yet found any other negative reports.
There is also allot of information on the health benefits of taking Niacinamide (B3) internally. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:12 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| 3rd.oculus wrote: |
Hm, that sounds similar to some theories about DMAE - that it plumps up your skin in the short-term, but may not be good in the long term. |
I agree. That is what it sounds like. I know Hannah from SAS recommends only intermittent use of DMAE. I wonder what her take on the niacinamide is. |
Yeh, that is a good point...I remember a while back how DMAE was thought to be the next best thing for tightening skin and at first even Hannah thought so...but after some studies showed how it could possibly kill cells then you had people changing their minds about it.
Now DMAE has some great benefits when taken internally but that doesn't mean it is good for long term topical use. Just like Niacinamide has some good benefits when taken internally...that doesn't mean that it won't inhibit SIRT1 in the long run.
And there are numerous studies that show it inhibits SIRT1...and when SIRT1 is inhibited it has been proven that it can be lead to pro-aging in the body. So anyone who says that there is no negative reports on Niacinamide has not done a proper search....all anyone has to do is a simple search on Pubmed |
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:38 pm |
Well you can find a number of positive studies for DMAE too...but that doesn't mean that in the long run the topical use of DMAE you won't kill cells.
You can also find numerous studies of benefits from a product that was popular in the 90's known as ephedrine....but now we know that with long term use it can cause heart issues.
Just like with Niacinamide there are good studies...but that doesn't mean that long term use won't cause SIRT1 reduction. In response to your studies, yes they show some good short-term results since the studies were only for 12 weeks...but pro-aging from SIRT1 inhibition will be a long-term effect that will not show its effects within just 12 weeks.
And when it has been shown that the niacinamide form inhibits SIRT1 but nicontic acid form does not....then why take the chance when there is an alternative that is now being used in some popular products instead of the niacinamide. |
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:51 pm |
I'm not arguing with you about this - I want to do the best and safest thing for my skin just as much as you do.
All I'm pointing out is that we have opposing studies on just about everything we put on our skin and it's very difficult to know what to believe. There are conflicting studies on Vitamin C, Copper Peptides, Nanoparticles, Chemical Sunscreens etc etc - one minute it's a miracle product, the next it's going to kill you! There never seems to be a general consensus on anything which makes it all very confusing. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:54 pm |
Agree. It does complicate things. This happens with foods also. I just read some studies that saturated fat is NOT bad for you as has been thought for decades. Coffee - Is it good or bad? Depends.
(I love it  ) |
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Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:56 pm |
| maxon782 wrote: |
Well you can find a number of positive studies for DMAE too...but that doesn't mean that in the long run the topical use of DMAE you won't kill cells.
You can also find numerous studies of benefits from a product that was popular in the 90's known as ephedrine....but now we know that with long term use it can cause heart issues.
Just like with Niacinamide there are good studies...but that doesn't mean that long term use won't cause SIRT1 reduction. In response to your studies, yes they show some good short-term results since the studies were only for 12 weeks...but pro-aging from SIRT1 inhibition will be a long-term effect that will not show its effects within just 12 weeks.
And when it has been shown that the niacinamide form inhibits SIRT1 but nicontic acid form does not....then why take the chance when there is an alternative that is now being used in some popular products instead of the niacinamide. |
However nicotinic acid is flushing and can be irritating whereas niacinamide is anti inflammatory and doesn't flush or irritate skin. |
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:59 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
I'm not arguing with you about this - I want to do the best and safest thing for my skin just as much as you do.
All I'm pointing out is that we have opposing studies on just about everything we put on our skin and it's very difficult to know what to believe. There are conflicting studies on Vitamin C, Copper Peptides, Nanoparticles, Chemical Sunscreens etc etc - one minute it's a miracle product, the next it's going to kill you! There never seems to be a general consensus on anything which makes it all very confusing. |
I totally agree with you. It really just comes down to personal choice. I use to use a niacinamide product but after reading up about niacinamide, especially on the imminst forum, and how it can be pro-aging from SIRT1 reduction I decided to switch over to a nicotinic acid product since it is just another form of niacin without that side effect.
I have been using a product with the nicotinic acid and have seen the same results i did when I was using the niacinamide. |
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:01 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
I'm not arguing with you about this - I want to do the best and safest thing for my skin just as much as you do.
All I'm pointing out is that we have opposing studies on just about everything we put on our skin and it's very difficult to know what to believe. There are conflicting studies on Vitamin C, Copper Peptides, Nanoparticles, Chemical Sunscreens etc etc - one minute it's a miracle product, the next it's going to kill you! There never seems to be a general consensus on anything which makes it all very confusing. |
This brings back memories from about 5 months ago I could swear we had a discussion on the ever changing and conflicting studies out there! That's science. |
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