 |
 |
| Author |
Message |
|
|
|
Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:42 am  |
I would love to see how we are all doing?
Here are the questions and I'll answer first:
(1) What parts of you do you dermaroll?
Answer: face, some of my neck, hands
(2) How many deep rolls have you done? (1.0 mm or longer needle)
Answer: 7 or 8 I think
(3) Have you seen improvement? if so, describe
Answer: overall smoother, clearer skin, it glows after rolling..still need Botox as often, but fewer fine lines, face doesn't appear to age as fast now, hands are about the same
(3) What is your post-rolling serum?
Answer: homemade concoction of oil based A,C,E and various antioxidants
(4) Do you disinfect your roller and or body parts?
Answer:yes, body with tea tree oil soap and roller with iodine solution
(5) Have you ever experienced an infection as a result of rolling?
Answer: no
(6) Do you bleed when you deep roll?
Answer: sometimes yes, sometimes no - it's odd
(7) Do you use a numbing agent? If so, which?
Answer: have tried various - trying to get the timing right is maddening - some skin parts get numb, some do not - it's nuts
( Do you think you will keep rolling?
Answer: as long as the supplies to do it are available
(9) Have you considered having it done professionally or do you know someone who has?
Answer: yes, but there are no places close to my home that perform this procedure.
(10) How often do you do deep rolls?
Answer: once every 3-6 weeks.
Thanks!! BF |
|
|
|
|
|
Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:58 am |
Hi there!!
would u consider adding 2 other questions to your poll?
1. What skin condition are you treating for dermarolling?
2. what length needle are you using???
3. if you used a dermastamp, were you happy with it, or preferred the dermaroller?
Warm Regards,
Storke |
|
|
|
|
|
Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:37 pm |
Sure you just did!
I am treating wrinkles and skin aging issues.
I use 1.5 for face and hands, 1.0 for eye area.
Hope we hear from others!
BF |
|
|
|
|
|
Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:41 pm |
Barefoot
have you ever gotten 'trackmarks' on your skin or needles bent using the dermaroller? |
|
|
|
|
|
Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:41 pm |
(1) What parts of you do you dermaroll?
Answer: face, some of my neck, hands
(2) How many deep rolls have you done? (1.0 mm or longer needle)
Answer: No deep rolls.
(3) Have you seen improvement? if so, describe
Answer: overall smoother, clearer skin, my lips look good too, skin glows after rolling..temporary plumping, hands are looking better but I'm using Copper Peptides and retin A, C serum on them as well as dermarolling with actives.
(3) What is your post-rolling serum?
Answer: Every Lipid Solution combined with Skinactives anti ox booster.
And then CP's less than one hour later.
(4) Do you disinfect your roller and or body parts?
Answer:yes, alcohol on roller, alcohol-based toner on face.
(5) Have you ever experienced an infection as a result of rolling?
Answer: no
(6) Do you bleed when you deep roll?
Answer: Don't deep roll.
(7) Do you use a numbing agent? If so, which?
Answer: Don't need it.
( Do you think you will keep rolling?
Answer: as long as the supplies to do it are available
(9) Have you considered having it done professionally or do you know someone who has?
Answer: No.
(10) How often do you do deep rolls?
Answer: Don't do them
11. What skin condition are you treating for dermarolling?
Better product penetration for anti-aging.
2. what length needle are you using?
.2 and .5 lengths for penetration. Will be getting a 1.0 or 1.5 Dr. Roller and go for blood.
3. if you used a dermastamp, were you happy with it, or preferred the dermaroller? |
_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
|
|
|
|
Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:24 pm |
(1) What parts of you do you dermaroll?
Answer: Lips, nasolabial folds, undereye, forehead, stretch-marks on hips, and scars throughout body.
(2) How many deep rolls have you done? (1.0 mm or longer needle)
Answer: I have used a single needle on deep wrinkles, stretch-marks, and scars 1 time so far.
(3) Have you seen improvement? if so, describe
Answer: My lips seem to plump, although probably temporarily. My stretch-marks have really faded. Some hypertrophic scars are diminishing. Sadly the fine lines have not budged!
(3) What is your post-rolling serum?
Answer: Vitamin C, Tretinoin, Matryxl or Hyaluronic Acid.
(4) Do you disinfect your roller and or body parts?
Answer: Yes, with rubbing alcohol on the roller and body parts.
(5) Have you ever experienced an infection as a result of rolling?
Answer: No.
(6) Do you bleed when you deep roll?
Answer: I get some blood spots with the single needle pricking.
(7) Do you use a numbing agent? If so, which?
Answer: I tried an EMLA type ointment but they really don’t help at all. So I have stopped.
(8 ) Do you think you will keep rolling?
Answer: Yes.
(9) Have you considered having it done professionally or do you know someone who has?
Answer: No.
(10) How often do you do deep rolls?
Answer: I am planning on single needle deep pricking once a month.
(11) What skin condition are you treating for dermarolling?
Answer: Wrinkles, stretch-marks, and scars.
(12) What length needle are you using?
Answer: Mostly 0.5mm and deeper with a single needle.
(13) If you used a dermastamp, were you happy with it, or preferred the dermaroller?
Answer: I haven’t though I intend to. The Dermaroller needles are not densely packed together requiring quite a bit of time rolling over the same area of skin. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:34 am |
Hi amoniasmith,
I noticed you say you are going to be incorporating the single needles, - I just wanted to ask what your routine with them will be? I have just received the singles needles to treat crows feet, but I only did a 1.5 roll last week, so wondered how long I should wait,
many thanks
Jackie xx |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:08 am |
(1) What parts of you do you dermaroll?
Face, neck and belly button.
(2) How many deep rolls have you done? (1.0 mm or longer needle)
None, only 0.3mm needles. But I roll harder and longer to get a similar effect.
(3) Have you seen improvement? if so, describe
Yes for the face and neck plumper thicker skin, reduction of acne scars, improved skin texture and better product penetration. Tightening and thickening of belly button skin.
(3) What is your post-rolling serum?
Vitamin C serum or aloe vera gel.
(4) Do you disinfect your roller and or body parts?
I boil it in hot water after every use. I just cleanse the skin before rolling.
(5) Have you ever experienced an infection as a result of rolling?
No, but have occasionally had some red spots that disappear after a couple of days.
(6) Do you bleed when you deep roll?
No, but it can look red with little pin pricks.
(7) Do you use a numbing agent? If so, which?
No 
( Do you think you will keep rolling?
Yes, definitely.
(9) Have you considered having it done professionally or do you know someone who has?
Possibly if I wanted a much deeper treatment, but then again I'm probably crazy enough to do it myself!
(10) How often do you do deep rolls?
I don't do deep rolls, but roll hard for 3-5 minutes once a week.
Hope this helps,
Dee |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:53 am |
| Jackie284 wrote: |
Hi amoniasmith,
I noticed you say you are going to be incorporating the single needles, - I just wanted to ask what your routine with them will be? I have just received the singles needles to treat crows feet, but I only did a 1.5 roll last week, so wondered how long I should wait,
many thanks
Jackie xx |
I am not that knowledgeable about this stuff. I am trying to space the deeper single needle pricking to once a month. In between, I use a shorter 0.5mm roller every week.
1.5mm is deeper so you may want to wait a month before doing that again. I suppose you can single needle at the same time. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:02 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I would love to see how we are all doing?
(1) What parts of you do you dermaroll?
Face.
(2) How many deep rolls have you done? (1.0 mm or longer needle)
3, with a 1.0mm
(3) Have you seen improvement? if so, describe
I've noticed that one particular chicken pox scar is almost completely filled in while a second is on its' way. I have also rolled over a sparse spot on my left eyebrow and it seems to have stimulated growth as it now seems to be filling in. My hyperpigmentation is starting to dissipate but I believe that has more to do with my hydroquinone usage along with dry brushing for exfoliation.
(3) What is your post-rolling serum?
I usually use retin-a then follow up with a layer of some sort of oil.
(4) Do you disinfect your roller and or body parts?
Yes. Rubbing alcohol on roller and skin, skin gets antiseptic spray as well.
(5) Have you ever experienced an infection as a result of rolling?
No
(6) Do you bleed when you deep roll?
Just pin pricks.
(7) Do you use a numbing agent? If so, which?
I haven't, but I will in the future so I can actually utilize the roller to it's fullest potential.
( Do you think you will keep rolling?
Definitely.
(9) Have you considered having it done professionally or do you know someone who has?
I think I may after more research.
(10) How often do you do deep rolls?
I followed Bethany's protocol with the inital 3 deep rolls (well, most probably not as deep as I needed to go to stimulate the *wound* repairing cascade)
1. What skin condition are you treating for dermarolling?
Acne scarring.
2. what length needle are you using???
1.0mm
Thanks!! BF |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:45 am |
I really love your name. I am obsessed with everything pleiades
could u tell me more about this. I tried to do a ssearch on it, but its like trying to find a needle in a haystack!!
***10) How often do you do deep rolls?
I followed Bethany's protocol with the inital 3 deep rolls (well, most probably not as deep as I needed to go to stimulate the *wound* repairing cascade)***
the inital 3 deep rolls deep? |
|
|
|
|
|
Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:44 am |
| Stork wrote: |
I really love your name. I am obsessed with everything pleiades
could u tell me more about this. I tried to do a ssearch on it, but its like trying to find a needle in a haystack!!
***10) How often do you do deep rolls?
I followed Bethany's protocol with the inital 3 deep rolls (well, most probably not as deep as I needed to go to stimulate the *wound* repairing cascade)***
the inital 3 deep rolls deep? |
Hi Stork!
I must apologize because I forgot that I had actually completed 6 rolls, as suggested by Bethany's protocol, then took the 90 day break, followed by one roll for the next three months. (Which is where I mixed up my tally:D) Anywho, I now do one roll a month with a 1.0mm.  Here are some posts I've quoted of Bethany's. In preparation, she does suggest both oral and topical A and C for, AT LEAST, 2 weeks before rolling, but ideally, 4-6 weeks, and continuiing throughout. I did 6 weeks and continue to take both oral and topical forms of both a and c.
| Bethany wrote: |
You should ideally be on a Retin A/Vit C routine for a minimum of 2 weeks BEFORE deramolling....the longer the better (Bethany added, in a later post, that 4-6 weeks would be optimal). This is because you need high levels of both within your cells so that skin can effectively remodel.
I am not a fan of putting ascorbic-acid based Vit C on open wounds, so I use an oil-based Vit C and Vit A instead.
However, some people do the following:
- Apply Retin A 30 mins after washing your face (after you are done rolling) and then apply the Vit C the next morning.
- Apply Vit C (it will sting)after washing your face (after you are done rolling), and apply Retin A 30 mins later. |
| Bethany wrote: |
Rolling History:
I did a series of 6 rolls (1 per week) starting in mid-May with a 1.0mm Dr. Roller and 1.0mm 3Line Dr. Roller and then took a 90 day break. I now only roll once every 4-6 weeks, and will not be taking future breaks.
Topicals:
The only topicals I use when rolling are RA (face and arms only), and 302 A Boost and Lightening Drops on all areas for the next 3 days in order to replicate Dr. Fernandes' professional protocol (though he actually uses the Environ EssentiA Oil). I have used CPs, but don't think they are essential at all.
I was also using 302 topicals on a daily basis, along with RA 1x a week....including when I was on my 90 day rolling break.
Dermarolling Results:
After a total of 4 months, I saw:
- 90% of my crowsfeet eliminated
- 75% of my glabellas (11's) eliminated
- 30% of my forehead lines eliminated and the rest softened
- 97% of my milia eliminated
- 80% of a neck/collarbone line eliminated
- 80% of the pigmentation eliminated from my hands
I had a VISIA Complexion Analysis done on 9/18 that showed the following, and I will be using this as a baseline for future improvement.
- Fine lines and wrinkles - 99%
- Hyperpigmentation (age/dark spots) - 73%
- Enlarged pores - 97%
- Texture (skin smoothness) - 85%
- Sun damage (UV spots) - 105 counted in the designated area
I have been very fortunate to see results of this magnitude so quickly, especially since I roll way less than most people. And I am definitely expecting/hoping to see more improvement over the next 12 months.
However, though many people do not see these results unless they roll more frequently, and for a longer time period. However, 6 to 7 months seems to be the point where most people start seeing results. |
Bethany also provided a nice, comprehensive reference for many articles regarding Rolling.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860 |
|
|
|
|
|
Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:04 pm |
(1) What parts of you do you dermaroll?
I use a single needle for stretch marks on my abdomen, hips, buttocks and thighs
(2) How many deep rolls have you done? (1.0 mm or longer needle)
I needled them about 7 times
(3) Have you seen improvement? if so, describe
yes. They are much smoother, bit shallower and their striking white shininess is gone. They are beige now which is much better blending with my skin. No stretch mark disappeared as far as I noticed.
(3) What is your post-rolling serum?
I shower, air dry and and massage little bit of Infadolan into my needled stripes
(4) Do you disinfect your roller and or body parts?
yes. 70% ethanol
(5) Have you ever experienced an infection as a result of rolling?
no
(6) Do you bleed when you deep roll?
I have lots of pinpoint bleeding with the single needle.
(7) Do you use a numbing agent? If so, which?
no
8 Do you think you will keep rolling?
Definitely. I hate my stretchmarks. Crushing those buggers makes me feel better
(9) Have you considered having it done professionally or do you know someone who has?
no
(10) How often do you do deep rolls?
I needle about once a month |
|
|
|
|
 |
Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:02 pm |
| pleiades wrote: |
| Stork wrote: |
I really love your name. I am obsessed with everything pleiades
could u tell me more about this. I tried to do a ssearch on it, but its like trying to find a needle in a haystack!!
***10) How often do you do deep rolls?
I followed Bethany's protocol with the inital 3 deep rolls (well, most probably not as deep as I needed to go to stimulate the *wound* repairing cascade)***
the inital 3 deep rolls deep? |
Hi Stork!
I must apologize because I forgot that I had actually completed 6 rolls, as suggested by Bethany's protocol, then took the 90 day break, followed by one roll for the next three months. (Which is where I mixed up my tally:D) Anywho, I now do one roll a month with a 1.0mm. Here are some posts I've quoted of Bethany's. In preparation, she does suggest both oral and topical A and C for, AT LEAST, 2 weeks before rolling, but ideally, 4-6 weeks, and continuiing throughout. I did 6 weeks and continue to take both oral and topical forms of both a and c.
| Bethany wrote: |
You should ideally be on a Retin A/Vit C routine for a minimum of 2 weeks BEFORE deramolling....the longer the better (Bethany added, in a later post, that 4-6 weeks would be optimal). This is because you need high levels of both within your cells so that skin can effectively remodel.
I am not a fan of putting ascorbic-acid based Vit C on open wounds, so I use an oil-based Vit C and Vit A instead.
However, some people do the following:
- Apply Retin A 30 mins after washing your face (after you are done rolling) and then apply the Vit C the next morning.
- Apply Vit C (it will sting)after washing your face (after you are done rolling), and apply Retin A 30 mins later. |
| Bethany wrote: |
Rolling History:
I did a series of 6 rolls (1 per week) starting in mid-May with a 1.0mm Dr. Roller and 1.0mm 3Line Dr. Roller and then took a 90 day break. I now only roll once every 4-6 weeks, and will not be taking future breaks.
Topicals:
The only topicals I use when rolling are RA (face and arms only), and 302 A Boost and Lightening Drops on all areas for the next 3 days in order to replicate Dr. Fernandes' professional protocol (though he actually uses the Environ EssentiA Oil). I have used CPs, but don't think they are essential at all.
I was also using 302 topicals on a daily basis, along with RA 1x a week....including when I was on my 90 day rolling break.
Dermarolling Results:
After a total of 4 months, I saw:
- 90% of my crowsfeet eliminated
- 75% of my glabellas (11's) eliminated
- 30% of my forehead lines eliminated and the rest softened
- 97% of my milia eliminated
- 80% of a neck/collarbone line eliminated
- 80% of the pigmentation eliminated from my hands
I had a VISIA Complexion Analysis done on 9/18 that showed the following, and I will be using this as a baseline for future improvement.
- Fine lines and wrinkles - 99%
- Hyperpigmentation (age/dark spots) - 73%
- Enlarged pores - 97%
- Texture (skin smoothness) - 85%
- Sun damage (UV spots) - 105 counted in the designated area
I have been very fortunate to see results of this magnitude so quickly, especially since I roll way less than most people. And I am definitely expecting/hoping to see more improvement over the next 12 months.
However, though many people do not see these results unless they roll more frequently, and for a longer time period. However, 6 to 7 months seems to be the point where most people start seeing results. |
Bethany also provided a nice, comprehensive reference for many articles regarding Rolling.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860 |
I'm so happy that someone actually READ some of the stuff that I posted!
I have changed my outlook a bit on rolling after reading more about inflammation, and the protocols of doctors doing medical rolls. I would recommend rolling MORE intensely (1.0mm and LOTS of holes) and LESS frequently than the original protocol that I used.
I would personally not roll more than once every 3-4 months at this point, in order to let any micro-inflammation fully dissipate between rolls. I actually haven't rolled since 11/08, but will be doing one this summer.
But that is just my personal perspective...I hope everyone has results, regardless of the protocol used. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
|
|
|
|
Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:52 am |
Thanks so much for that!
Bethany,
Is the reason you haven't rolled since 08 because you have gotten so much improvement??
I have taken the plunge and ordered a 0.8mm from novaclinic dermastamp.
I know here you say not to roll more than 3-4 months now, but i am considering that because a 0.8mm is quite shallow, do u think its not such a big risk to roll once per month ?
Thanks very much,
Storke |
|
|
|
|
|
Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:09 am |
| bethany wrote: |
[
I'm so happy that someone actually READ some of the stuff that I posted!
I have changed my outlook a bit on rolling after reading more about inflammation, and the protocols of doctors doing medical rolls. I would recommend rolling MORE intensely (1.0mm and LOTS of holes) and LESS frequently than the original protocol that I used.
I would personally not roll more than once every 3-4 months at this point, in order to let any micro-inflammation fully dissipate between rolls. I actually haven't rolled since 11/08, but will be doing one this summer.
But that is just my personal perspective...I hope everyone has results, regardless of the protocol used. |
Thanks much for your updated revisions, Bethany! |
|
|
|
|
|
Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:44 am |
(1) What parts of you do you dermaroll?
Answer: face, neck
(2) How many deep rolls have you done? (1.0 mm or longer needle)
Answer: at least 20
(3) Have you seen improvement? if so, describe
Answer: plumped up smoother skin
(3) What is your post-rolling serum?
Answer: The only rolls I do now are very deep and I don't apply anything to my skin for at least 48 hours.
(4) Do you disinfect your roller and or body parts?
Answer: disinfect roller w/boiled water and alcohol, remove numbing agent (Emla) with paper towel then alcohol.
(5) Have you ever experienced an infection as a result of rolling?
Answer: no
(6) Do you bleed when you deep roll?
Answer: yes!
(7) Do you use a numbing agent? If so, which?
Answer: Emla
( Do you think you will keep rolling?
Answer: yes
(9) Have you considered having it done professionally or do you know someone who has?
Answer: yes, but I decided I am capable of doing it myself, so I use a 2.0mm approx once a year now and no other rolling.
(10) How often do you do deep rolls?
Answer: see above. |
_________________
Vehicle is a 1952 scratch and dent model....olive-ish, dry skin, long curly gray hair. Staples: Tazorac, 2mm Dermaroller, Anti Aging Light Stim, Devita Sunscreens, homemade C serums, some positive affirmations and whatever else it takes! Kicking and screaming the whole way... |
|
|
|
|
Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:17 pm |
(1) What parts of you do you dermaroll?
Answer: Entire face
(2) How many deep rolls have you done? (1.0 mm or longer needle)
Answer: 10+ (I used to do it everyday before reading that you shouldn't, now I do it weekly)
(3) Have you seen improvement? if so, describe
Answer: I don't think so
(3) What is your post-rolling serum?
Answer: E45 moisturiser and bio-oil
(4) Do you disinfect your roller and or body parts?
Answer: Only dip the roller in salted boiling water for a few minutes
(5) Have you ever experienced an infection as a result of rolling?
Answer: no
(6) Do you bleed when you deep roll?
Answer: Only ever have blood spots occasionally
(7) Do you use a numbing agent? If so, which?
Answer: Tried EMLA, it worked a bit but it's price wasn't worth it.
( Do you think you will keep rolling?
Answer: Definitely! I think I'll see results eventually
(9) Have you considered having it done professionally or do you know someone who has?
Answer: No, I will get equal results at home if I'm intensive enough
(10) How often do you do deep rolls?
Answer: Once or twice a week |
|
|
|
|
|
Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:37 am |
(1) What parts of you do you dermaroll?
Buttocks, hips, face, under-eye, scar on leg.
(2) How many deep rolls have you done? (1.0 mm or longer needle)
Maybe 15.
(3) Have you seen improvement? if so, describe
Stretch marks are faded by 50%-60% so far. Very pleased overall.
(3.5) What is your post-rolling serum?
Homemade blend of natural oils like rose hip seed, helichrysum italicum and carrot seed.
+ Homemade vit. C serum.
(4) Do you disinfect your roller and or body parts?
Disinfect body and roller with Alcohol.
(5) Have you ever experienced an infection as a result of rolling?
NO.
(6) Do you bleed when you deep roll?
Hardly ever.
(7) Do you use a numbing agent? If so, which?
Emla for body. Numbing solution for face.
( Do you think you will keep rolling?
Less frequently but YES.
(9) Have you considered having it done professionally or do you know someone who has?
Yes but they charge too much for something you can easily do at home!
(10) How often do you do deep rolls?
Every 3-4 weeks (now less frequently). |
_________________
My derma-roller BLOG: http://homedermarolling.blogspot.com |
|
|
|
|
Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:05 pm |
(1) What parts of you do you dermaroll?
Answer: face and neck - then I use my Quasar MD LED light immediately afterwards.
(2) How many deep rolls have you done? (1.0 mm or longer needle)
Answer: Just finished my 4th roll using 1.5 roller. Also use the stamp. Use a .25 during the week for product penetration.
(3) Have you seen improvement? if so, describe
Answer: It's only been 4 months and I was told it takes at least 6 months to see collagen building up - but yes. Skin is much smoother. Old acne scars are fading. Color is good!
(3) What is your post-rolling serum?
Answer: For a 1.5 roll I use the Infadolen ointment. Lightly. On the .25 rolls I use vitamin C and also various serums.
(4) Do you disinfect your roller and or body parts?
Answer: Yes, with alcohol.
(5) Have you ever experienced an infection as a result of rolling?
Answer: No.
(6) Do you bleed when you deep roll?
Answer: I do get blood spots. Maybe 15-30. I
(7) Do you use a numbing agent? If so, which?
Answer: No. I find that it really hurts at first, so I start off lightly, very soon I get used to it and can go deeper.
(8 ) Do you think you will keep rolling?
Answer: Yes.
(9) Have you considered having it done professionally or do you know someone who has?
Answer: No.
(10) How often do you do deep rolls?
Answer: Every 5-6 weeks.
(11) What skin condition are you treating for dermarolling?
Answer: Wrinkles, old acne scars, sagging.
(12) What length needle are you using?
Answer: Already answered.
(13) If you used a dermastamp, were you happy with it, or preferred the dermaroller?
Answer: I use both!! And am happy with both! |
|
|
|
|
| Sat Jul 26, 2025 1:56 pm |
If this is your first visit to the EDS Forums please take the time to register. Registration is required for you to post on the forums. Registration will also give you the ability to track messages of interest, send private messages to other users, participate in Gift Certificates draws and enjoy automatic discounts for shopping at our online store. Registration is free and takes just a few seconds to complete.
Click Here to join our community.
If you are already a registered member on the forums, please login to gain full access to the site. |
|
 |
|
|
