FACIAL EXERCISES
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Thu May 06, 2010 1:02 pm

I spent some time searching different internet sites for Facial Exercises and what people thought of them.

I think I see a pattern:

1. On Amazon, each facial exercise program has its own "groupies" writing great reviews about that program and trashing other programs. The funny thing is, this is done so blatantly (and very stupidly I might add) that anyone can see thru it. The five star reviews for these products are mostly done by "customers" who have never reviewed another product on Amazon. 99% of these "reviewers" who gave these programs great reviews had reviewed ONLY that program and nothing else.....is that just a coincidence? I do not think so.

2. Most of the "real" negative comments for ALMOST ALL of these facial exercise programs focused on how the exercises made certain areas look worse.

3. ALMOST ALL of the facial exercise programs were "discovered" by the founder "while researching" or "while trying out"

4. The founders of these facial exercise programs are not doctors, or exercise experts or even people who seem to have any knowledge about the anatomy of the face. They also don't seem to have any other experience with this type of thing (they just "discovered" the exercises")

Does this sound somewhat somewhat similar to the little internet ads that we are bombarded with these days, for instance "stay at home mom **discovers*** tooth whitening secret" or "grandma **discovers** miracle weight losss secret" and so on???

5. How do we know that the "discoverers" of the facial exercises had never had plastic surgery (or other work like fillers etc) done on their faces? After all, doctor-patient confidentiality would mean we would never know...

Maybe we should try Suzanne Somer's facemaster....?

free skin care · Thu May 06, 2010 1:40 pm

RickR wrote:

I spent some time searching different internet sites for Facial Exercises and what people thought of them.

I think I see a pattern:

1. On Amazon, each facial exercise program has its own "groupies" writing great reviews about that program and trashing other programs. The funny thing is, this is done so blatantly (and very stupidly I might add) that anyone can see thru it. The five star reviews for these products are mostly done by "customers" who have never reviewed another product on Amazon. 99% of these "reviewers" who gave these programs great reviews had reviewed ONLY that program and nothing else.....is that just a coincidence? I do not think so.

2. Most of the "real" negative comments for ALMOST ALL of these facial exercise programs focused on how the exercises made certain areas look worse.

3. ALMOST ALL of the facial exercise programs were "discovered" by the founder "while researching" or "while trying out"

4. The founders of these facial exercise programs are not doctors, or exercise experts or even people who seem to have any knowledge about the anatomy of the face. They also don't seem to have any other experience with this type of thing (they just "discovered" the exercises")

Does this sound somewhat somewhat similar to the little internet ads that we are bombarded with these days, for instance "stay at home mom **discovers*** tooth whitening secret" or "grandma **discovers** miracle weight losss secret" and so on???

5. How do we know that the "discoverers" of the facial exercises had never had plastic surgery (or other work like fillers etc) done on their faces? After all, doctor-patient confidentiality would mean we would never know...

Maybe we should try Suzanne Somer's facemaster....?

Actually Deb Crowley was a body builder and certainly was/is an exercise expert of sorts. She is the founder of Flex Effect and researches her product and definitely believes in the product. I see nothing phony about her.

Two of the programs help recovery for Bells Palsey patients - Facercise by Carole Maggio and also Flex Effect.

True about the confidentiality aspect... though that seems to not hold in Hollywood circles. At this point I feel the people I have chosen to do programs from are honorable in what they say about their lack of fillers, etc. They also look natural - their face moves for one thing. Plus I've experienced my own results.

I have been doing facial exercise for two years. Previous to this I had filler in my NL and no longer need this AT ALL. (It didn't last anyway) Facial exercise has opened my eyes (literally Very Happy

) and lifted my cheeks up and out and my lips are natural and maintaining fullness.

Those internet ads you mention are a major scam and made to drag you in and get your credit card number so they can continually send you products you may no longer want. Apparently it is often difficult to get the card cancelled once in effect and many people have trouble that way.

I haven't experienced that with Flex Effect, Facercise or Ageless- I bought all three programs. And all three have access to real people, and real assistance. That cannot be said about the scams you mention above.

I've never reviewed anything on Amazon and take all reviews there for any product with a grain of salt or three! Buyer beware.

That said I love facial exercise, see no *scam* in it. And if you want whiter teeth you can get that pretty cheap too* Wink

No need to get on the internet.

free skin care · Thu May 06, 2010 1:40 pm

RickR wrote:

4. The founders of these facial exercise programs are not doctors, or exercise experts or even people who seem to have any knowledge about the anatomy of the face. They also don't seem to have any other experience with this type of thing (they just "discovered" the exercises")

This is definitely not true in the case of FlexEffect....the founder is a longtime bodybuilder and has done extensive research on bone, skin, muscles, etc.

My personal results using Ageless were very impressive...I posted pics last year showing significant ML improvement. But after taking some time off (which obliterated my results, sigh) I switched to Safetox which I like even better. I have also had faster results, though at a much higher cost.

free skin care · Thu May 06, 2010 1:57 pm

Rick, that has been one of my long-time issues with Facercise, that almost all the amazon reviews are plants. The reviewers only review her products, give all of them five stars, and parrot the same marketing hype.

From all accounts Carole is a lovely person and her program works for many, but when I see a pattern like that, it's real hard for me to ignore those red flags and flashing lights.

free skin care · Fri May 07, 2010 11:14 pm

I've been starting to research facial exercises. There are 2 ideas that seem rather attractive:

a. We "build" muscle in the face which sort of "fills in". However, I have not found (neither have really looked) research saying that this is what actually happens (i.e. normal people increasing the facial muscle mass through exercise)

b. We tend to have certain expressions, gestures, etc. So those muscles are "stronger" than the ones that do opposing movements. So those expressions tend to get "fixed" in our face and in the end result in wrinkles. Someone with good knowledge of anatomy could potentially look at your face and give you exercises to counter your regular gestures. In this case, the exercises could improve lines.

Now the main problems I see are:

- A lot of people extrapolate what happens in limb muscles with facial muscles. That's a mistake. Facial muscles are very different from regular muscles in how they're attached and the relationship they have with the skin, etc, etc.
So just because something happens in the arm... it doesn't mean it happens in the face.

- If you do the wrong exercises, you can indeed end up more wrinkled and that's what I suspect happens to people that have had bad experiences with facial exercises. In this particular area, exercises should be tailored to every person.

- The bone generating exercises and the collagen stimulating exercises do not seem credible to me.

- The pictures of some of the websites are just... not properly done! Like it's obvious that if the "after" photo is taken with more light, face shinier, farther away and with less resolution... the person is going to look better! The other thing is that in some of the pictures

- Some of the pictures... are sort of medically impossible. If you have excess skin in your lid, there's not much exercises will do for you since the excess is there. So those pictures of magic change in 2 weeks...
Rolling Eyes

So... at least for me for now... since there's not much besides people's experiences regarding facial exercises and some people have gotten bad results... I'm took bethany's bus and I ordered Safetox Very Happy

(I'm hoping now people won't accuse me here of being a troll working for safetox Laughing

)

free skin care · Sat May 08, 2010 1:40 am

Josee wrote:

I'm took bethany's bus and I ordered Safetox Very Happy

(I'm hoping now people won't accuse me here of being a troll working for safetox Laughing

)

No, though I think someone may be reserving that for me, lol. Hmm...I would't mind moving to France and working for them. Oh wait, moving the 6 cats would be too big of a hassle, darn it. Rolling Eyes

And congrats on the Safetox purchase! I'll pm you with a couple of tips on extending the life of the electrodes, etc. Very Happy

free skin care · Sat May 08, 2010 1:45 am

Josee wrote:

- If you do the wrong exercises, you can indeed end up more wrinkled and that's what I suspect happens to people that have had bad experiences with facial exercises. In this particular area, exercises should be tailored to every person.

I think people have also overbuilt certain areas, or the exercise changed their facial shape in some way that they didn't like (like the jaw).

free skin care · Sat May 08, 2010 8:55 am

a. Not at all, when you build muscles, its believed that with the resistance you impact both the connective tissue surrounding the muslces, the skin itself and the cells. For me, I know I definitely have increased my firmness in my face.

b. The argument with expressions is that not so much that they are caused by muscles, but that the tissue that is above them is not sa healthy as it once was so the expressions stay around for longer. The argument is that kids make expressions, but their tissue is more healthy and so it snaps back, but as adults, during the aging process that part gets stopped or something. I'm not up on the science bit but I think you should visit the FlexEffect forum as they're great over there about answering questions I've had and may be able to suggest particular sources to you.

Whilst I know what you mean re the body musclees and face muscles, and their origin and insertion, I think thats part of the argument for facial exercises work because when you strength the muscles and they tone up, they lift up and take the skin they're attacheed with them.

Exercises should be tailored to every person. Sure I agree with that, but I think that part of that needs you to know your face or have someone who can teach you and we don't all have access, but I think I have learned a lot from dvd's etc. So I think if there is a will there has got to be a way.

Re bone and collagen, you don't have to believe in them for them to work I think.. Its a bit like electricity, just because I don't understand it, doesn't mean when I switch the lightstwitch on it won't work. I don't think any of us are really qualified to be able to explain the bone/collagen exercises without you having the kits in front of you and there is science parts in them. Again the trainers might be better able to give you guidance.

With photos I know exactly what you mean, but I think the arugument has always been that the photos are from the individuals themselves rather than proper medical proof ones, but I don't know why they aren't any in place?

With safetox is there proper medical proof that it will work all the facial muscles? From what I've seen people are getting creative with it to work the nl's etc, but even then, it doesn't look to me like a guarantee that it will do a major improvement and when I looked at their website some of their photos didn't look that great to me. I know Toby who I trust shared her photos here some time ago with safetox, but then again it could be argued that Toby does so much its impossible to say whether its safetox, stop, ageless etc thats giving her those great results or even perhaps Tanaka for example.

BTW Josee no one thinks your a troll, I've learned lots from you already in the CPs thread and am grateful that your here as you ask questions that get me thinking. Having been a long term user of facial exercises though I think sometimes it helps to share thoughts and so hope you appreciate them in the context they done here. I'm not a teacher or anything of them but have asked similar questions before and think thats what EDS is for.

free skin care · Sun May 09, 2010 9:30 am

TheresaMary wrote:

a. Not at all, when you build muscles, its believed that with the resistance you impact both the connective tissue surrounding the muslces, the skin itself and the cells. For me, I know I definitely have increased my firmness in my face.

The theory sounds interesting which is why facial exercises seem appealing. But for me (and because there are people that have had bad experiences with facial exercises) I'm in the fence because I haven't read any research proving this. And the other thing is that it's not the connective tissue surrounding the muscles that's responsible for our wrinkled look but the tissue in the dermis that is a different compartment and as far as I know there is no extra collagen increase in the dermis in body builders (or facial exercisers).

The other thing is that if you see people with chronic Bell's paralysis, they don't look more wrinkled on the paralyzed side. In fact, they sometimes look less wrinkled. They DO look like their face is "sagging" but not due to the skin but due to their expressions. And this is why I think that if facial exercises are to do something, it can be related to balancing the features.

TheresaMary wrote:

b. The argument with expressions is that not so much that they are caused by muscles, but that the tissue that is above them is not sa healthy as it once was so the expressions stay around for longer. The argument is that kids make expressions, but their tissue is more healthy and so it snaps back, but as adults, during the aging process that part gets stopped or something. I'm not up on the science bit but I think you should visit the FlexEffect forum as they're great over there about answering questions I've had and may be able to suggest particular sources to you.

I was talking about more... "constant expressions". For e.g. I read somewhere (related to the ageless exercises) that our mouths tend to go downward. That can cause a "sagging look" in our face. However, if we train our "smiling" muscles, we could, in theory (don't know if it can actually happen) balance the expression and not look as sagging.

I understand that in children, they don't get dynamic wrinkles because they haven't done them for that long and because they have a higher collagen production so they don't get wrinkles in general. However, as we age...we do so in this particular case I don't see how facial exercises would help with dynamic wrinkles.

So I guess for me that is the big question. Assuming the tighten things... how does that work with dynamic wrinkles?

TheresaMary wrote:

Re bone and collagen, you don't have to believe in them for them to work I think.. Its a bit like electricity, just because I don't understand it, doesn't mean when I switch the lightstwitch on it won't work. I don't think any of us are really qualified to be able to explain the bone/collagen exercises without you having the kits in front of you and there is science parts in them. Again the trainers might be better able to give you guidance.

The thing is that there is research out there on this and based on that research I don't see that possible.

With collagen for example, one of the few studies on facial fibroblasts showed that the tension you have to do is extremely precise to generate collagen. If you do less than 10% it won't work, if you do more than 10% your fibroblasts start dying Rolling Eyes

So how do you know that when you do XYZ exercise you're doing exactly 10%?
And the same thing with bone... you really need to exert such a huge force for bone to be grown that you would end up ripping collagen off.

So at least these 2 things I'm heavily inclined towards thinking it does not work. But that doesn't mean it can't work for other things.
I think it might also depend on what your problem is. For example, I'd like to think that I'm young and really my main problem right now is dynamic wrinkles. I don't have that many but some lines are appearing. So if something could tighten muscle without risking dynamic wrinkles it'd be more interesting. However, if other people have more sagging or NL folds... then maybe it the risk-benefit of the exercises tilt more towards the benefit.

TheresaMary wrote:

With photos I know exactly what you mean, but I think the arugument has always been that the photos are from the individuals themselves rather than proper medical proof ones, but I don't know why they aren't any in place?

Yeah I know but if you see some pictures that are impossible... then why publish them?
For e.g.... people that lose A LOT of weight. OK so they have excess skin, right? No matter how much exercises they do, most of the skin will still be there and the only way to get rid of it is with surgery.
Some of the pictures shown have people with obvious excess skin in their upper lids and then miraculously 2 weeks later the skin is gone. I'm sorry but if that it's true then it's a real miracle because it's not biologically possible.

TheresaMary wrote:

With safetox is there proper medical proof that it will work all the facial muscles? From what I've seen people are getting creative with it to work the nl's etc, but even then, it doesn't look to me like a guarantee that it will do a major improvement and when I looked at their website some of their photos didn't look that great to me. I know Toby who I trust shared her photos here some time ago with safetox, but then again it could be argued that Toby does so much its impossible to say whether its safetox, stop, ageless etc thats giving her those great results or even perhaps Tanaka for example.

Yes I agree with you 100%. Safetox also seems like "mechanical" snake oil to me Smile

But I guess based on positive reviews by people, lack of bad effects and... faith Smile

I wanna give it a try!

TheresaMary wrote:

Having been a long term user of facial exercises though I think sometimes it helps to share thoughts and so hope you appreciate them in the context they done here. I'm not a teacher or anything of them but have asked similar questions before and think thats what EDS is for.

Thanks TheresaMary. I think that something that's incredible about EDS is that there are lots of users with so much experience on different issues. So many times it's that sharing that can tip the balance to "I'll try this" or "I won't bother". Most things are like that, aren't they? We take a chance and hope that whatever we try next will work.
I think if we pulled all our experiences together we could probably have enough data to write a cosmetics encyclopedia!

free skin care · Sun May 09, 2010 11:23 am

Josee I agree with you that this is the wonderful thing about EDS. I just don't know enough about the science to properly answer your questions and bet I'm probably making mistakes in my answers, but I know there are answers out there, but it may only be theory rather than scientific fact, but this is the same for safetox though. Having said that though, just like facial exercises, there are fans of safetox, so I am sure it does something for sure but wonder if it will be the same for everyone or just certain few (just like exercises).

I think the thing with people who have had bad experiences, they are quite vocal but often times they don't go into much detail. On two forums I belong to, I've seen panicked responses, but when they are questioned over what they were doing etc there is usually a logical explanation. Also I think some people do things sometimes just to rubbish things (at least thats my experience particularly with Ageless). So its interesting for sure but like most things I suppose its really the proof in the pudding.

With chronic bells palsyy though I thought facial exercises were often used by physicans to help rebuild the movement in the affected facial components? Not sure if I have made that up, but sure I read that somewhere. I might try asking that question on another forum and seeing what they say if its ok?

My understanding re the mouth going downwards (and think Lou wrote that in the FAQs) isn't so much about the mouth changing shape itself, but that the muscles that support it become slackened and sag, and this in turn affects their appearance but don't quote me on that. SO when you retone those muscles they start shortening and lifting back up and take the mouth corners with them.

Whats a dynamic wrinkle? I know they often say the high collagen production is why they don't get wrinkles, but as we age that production slows down, so I believe that the theory is that exercises restimulate collagen production.

With the research on bone production, I don't know what to say. I can't get my head round that stuff in the book but when I try it, I could see changes happening. Might be all in my head, but I swear they are there for sure. With fibroblasts though - is it that they are needed only to be stimulated 10% to stimulate production, or if you go after muscle fibres will they become activated when needed? I mean if you work a muscle and you do't activate fibroblasts, does that mean your not working the muscle, or will you not be working the muscle enough to reshape it.

With the photos I gues they are saying those results are possible, but that the actual photos showing all the changes appear different and more of photographic effect because they haven't been done scientifically and are only when the users compare previous photos and against modern ones. Does make me wonder though why there aren't any photos in place showing proper scientific changes - as surely there are enough people out there willing to do it.

With excess skin, and I'm definitely one of those women who lost weight and had excess skin, the skin does reabsorb over time. I had a terrible crepy neck and jawline, and thats firmedup nicely. I think there are sometimes things that work that need time and I guess facial exercises is one of them. For example, when I gave birth to my son, my stomach had so much excess skin, but over time that eexcess skin did go. Not sure about the science parts of why that happened but itsa similar conversation I think.

free skin care · Sun May 09, 2010 5:16 pm

Hey Josee,

I won't have much time to post on this (and probably won't be able to respond again for several days), but I wanted to add just a few things to the conversation here, in case it might help.

One, if you're still on the fence for scientific reasons, you might want to in particular read through all the threads on Dr. Schultz and facial exercises, and arguments on either side of the fence. I've only found like 2 studies in the literature on facial exercises increasing muscle mass, so there's not much out there. For what it's worth, I think they work, but also acknowledge that getting good results is not always easy or straightforward. I think if they downright had no benefits--at as unbiased a place as EDS--you'd right see almost no one here supporting them. But there is a sizeable number of people here who love them, so I think that is worth something, but obviously that is far from being proof.

Second, on your argument regarding facial muscles being partially to very different from muscles of the body, I think the main difference is their attachment and insertion sites. TheresaMary made an excellent point that this is a double-edged sword: it helps you pull up the skin when your muscles are healthy, but can create wrinkles in the skin when they are not healthy. I would also add that as far as we know all the biochemical pathways are similar--it's muscle tissue consisting of sarcomeres, myosin, actin, etc.--so we one would expect that the muscle tissue in the face responds similarly to muscle tissue in the body. Of course, then the question becomes: to what degree are positive improvements possible and is it possible to get bad results....

Josee wrote:

With collagen for example, one of the few studies on facial fibroblasts showed that the tension you have to do is extremely precise to generate collagen. If you do less than 10% it won't work, if you do more than 10% your fibroblasts start dying So how do you know that when you do XYZ exercise you're doing exactly 10%?

Which research papers are you looking at? The dozen or so research papers I've seen, the range has been rather reasonable: e.g., 10-20% strain for optimizing fibroblast growth in tissue engineering experiments.

Josee wrote:

And the same thing with bone... you really need to exert such a huge force for bone to be grown that you would end up ripping collagen off.

I've read other figures in the literature, which I've cited here before. For example, a study of professional tennis players showed 40% more bone density in the arm that holds the tennis rackets. Moderate dance classes 2-3x a week at nursing homes increased bone density in subjects. You don't need a huge force; even vibrating plate machines and simple weight-bearing exercises work.

HTH Smile

free skin care · Sun May 09, 2010 7:15 pm

cm5597 wrote:

Which research papers are you looking at? The dozen or so research papers I've seen, the range has been rather reasonable: e.g., 10-20% strain for optimizing fibroblast growth in tissue engineering experiments.

The ones I've seen in dermal fibroblasts (which are different than tendon fibroblasts) showed that at 20% there were already alterations in the shape of the fibroblasts (i.e. altered viability). I know that for tendon fibroblasts it's different, but it's dermal fibroblasts that I'm interested in.

I'm not home now but I'll pull the papers and hopefully we can look at them together.

cm5597 wrote:

Josee wrote:

And the same thing with bone... you really need to exert such a huge force for bone to be grown that you would end up ripping collagen off.

I've read other figures in the literature, which I've cited here before. For example, a study of professional tennis players showed 40% more bone density in the arm that holds the tennis rackets. Moderate dance classes 2-3x a week at nursing homes increased bone density in subjects. You don't need a huge force; even vibrating plate machines and simple weight-bearing exercises work.

It IS a huge force. Professional tennis players involve huge forces and pull. Eve non-professional players have a huge impact on their arms.

If you could provide me with some references I would really appreciate it. Because the papers I've read, for non-osteoporotic women there was significant increase in BMD if the dancing included some sort of impact (e.g. foot stamping in line dancing, etc.)

I don't think you can do that kind of impact with the face or you risk breaking collagen and elastin.

But I'd definitely be interested if there's a non weight bearing, no impact exercise that showed to improve BMD in non-osteoporotic women. Then facial exercise for bone density could have some credence, otherwise it's simply not possible.

I'm starting to look into this so any references will help! Thanks!

free skin care · Sun May 09, 2010 9:17 pm

I think Josee should post this on the FlexEffect forum and get some answers there. There are few here who will respond.

free skin care · Sun May 09, 2010 9:18 pm

If she really wants answers that is.

free skin care · Thu May 13, 2010 11:05 am

Hey Josee--Just wanted to let you know that I saw your post, and I'll try to get back to you this weekend with some info Smile

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