Fighting wrinkles with lasers scientifically unraveled
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Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:18 am

This is interesting: http://www.alphagalileo.org/ViewItem.aspx?ItemId=88148&CultureCode=en

Quote:

Although this study suggests that it is heat rather than light that rejuvenates the skin, the laser still remains the instrument of choice in the opinion of Dams. "A laser allows treatment with great precision, because it can specifically heat specific elements in the skin while leaving the rest unharmed. This allows the optimal effect to be achieved."

free skin care · Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:55 am

That is interesting read. I wonder if there are alternative sources of heat that we can use instead (thinking LED?) I also have a High Frequency, but don't think it produces much heat. Anything else out there?

free skin care · Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:14 pm

This details how lasers require such precision by the operator and equipment for a result without injury to the patient.

free skin care · Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:17 pm

That wasn't exactly what happened to you, was it Anne?

free skin care · Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:21 pm

Foxe, yes, I was burned by a laser treatment- and I know several people who have suffered the necrosis mentioned in the article..

free skin care · Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:36 pm

No - I meant you didn't have the precision & result without injury to the patient.

free skin care · Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:54 pm

Oh OK Sorry Foxe

free skin care · Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:53 pm

Thank you! This is a really informative article. It explain why I got lipoatrophy from fractional laser. I got cooked!

free skin care · Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:05 pm

Foxe, what kind of skin improvement are you wanting? If it's anti-aging I have read a LOT about PRP and PRFM and It's supposed to stimulate collagen.
A derm told me that LED is effective but just much slower than laser or IPL. But it's probably a lot safer! I have a home LED light. I'm not using it now since laser damage and I never really got a chance to try it out for a long time.

free skin care · Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:31 am

foxe wrote:

That is interesting read. I wonder if there are alternative sources of heat that we can use instead (thinking LED?) I also have a High Frequency, but don't think it produces much heat. Anything else out there?

There is the STOP device. I've just found the specs on that:

STOP Skin Rejuvenation Treatment - Technical Specifications:

Weight: 85gr
Physical Dimensions: H=134mm L=51mm W=32mm
Operating conditions Temperature: +5°C to +30°C
Humidity: 20RH to 80RH
Rating: AC 100Vac to 240Vac 0.6 A 50/60Hz
DC 7V/8V/9V 1.5A
Transport and Storage: Temperature: 0°C to 40°C
Humidity: 10RH to 90RH
Electrical Safety: Power supply is classified as Class ll – double insulation
http://www.stop-age.com/product-info.php

It heats up to 30 degrees, so that's not too far off the parameters recommended in the article.

I am now using the device in a slower manner and waiting till I really feel the heat before I move to the next spot. Overall, I've been rather underwhelmed with this device, but then you never know - if I had not have been using it maybe my jowls would be hanging around my shoulders by now.

free skin care · Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:16 am

Somewhere in the Stop literature it said that the Stop heats the skin to a maximum of 40° Celsius. The Stop operating conditions temperature of +5°C to +30°C just refers to room temperature at time of use. The article posted in this thread said the best effect was found to result from a heat shock of 45°C lasting eight to ten seconds. The Stop never reaches that temperature. The researcher also stated that heating cells in culture for two seconds at 60°C results in cell necrosis. I have read elsewhere that the upper limit is closer to 50°C. This research is based on cells in culture, not human subjects.

free skin care · Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:15 pm

whirleegig wrote:

Foxe, what kind of skin improvement are you wanting? If it's anti-aging I have read a LOT about PRP and PRFM and It's supposed to stimulate collagen.
A derm told me that LED is effective but just much slower than laser or IPL. But it's probably a lot safer! I have a home LED light. I'm not using it now since laser damage and I never really got a chance to try it out for a long time.

I mostly have sagging issues along w/ some loss of volume. I also have some expression lines that nothing but Botox knocks down.

A couple of spots I damaged years ago w/ a strong acid (trying to get rid of milia) need some help, too. But, those have greatly improved over the last few years, already.

I've read the PRP thread and am not sure it's something I need, especially after seeing Keliu's comment from her derm saying it's mostly used for skin texture. My texture is actually really good (besides PIH from blemishes-arrgh). No fine lines or age spots here. I have fair, even toned skin as well.

What is PRFM?

I'm glad to hear your derm approves of LEDs and thinks they work (albiet, slower) like lazers or IPLs. That news gives me incentive to continue using mine on a more consistent basis. Dancing

free skin care · Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:23 pm

Thanks for the tip on the STOP Keliu - I have read some of that thread but haven't kept up with it much. I would love to see how your results go, so keep us informed on that.

It's interesting about the heat it produces, even if it's 40° C. That's pretty close to the 45 that Lacy mentions in her post. I wonder if that's enough, considering you haven't seen much in terms of results, yet.

Of course, the STOP wouldn't product a 'heat shock' like a laser would. I think that might be an important piece of the puzzle.

free skin care · Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:48 pm

When I had my consultation the other day with the doctor about the Sculptra and PRP we had a discussion on lasers. He said that lasers are "back end" treatments. By that he meant that results aren't instantaneous - the benefits are only seen down the track. He also said you need to be consistent with treatments and the more intense the laser, the better the results. Definitely a case of "more pain, more gain".

I think that is why many people complain of lack of results from lasers - they just don't have enough treatments. Of course, that's because not many of us can afford that kind of ongoing expense. I read an article by Ellen Barkin (the actress) and she claims to have four Thermage treatments a year. Apparently Demi Moore also has multiple Thermage treatments regularly (according to someone on TV who probably doesn't really have a clue as to what Demi Moore does). But when my eldest daughter had her laser treatment she said the clinician (who was a mature woman) had absolutely perfect skin. The clinician said it was all due to regular laser treatments - no Botox or fillers, just laser.

As for the STOP - I just can't possibly believe that a little home device can yield the same results as a salon treatment. But whilst I see no adverse effects, I will keep using mine and hope for the best!

free skin care · Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:30 pm

foxe wrote:

whirleegig wrote:

Foxe, what kind of skin improvement are you wanting? If it's anti-aging I have read a LOT about PRP and PRFM and It's supposed to stimulate collagen.
A derm told me that LED is effective but just much slower than laser or IPL. But it's probably a lot safer! I have a home LED light. I'm not using it now since laser damage and I never really got a chance to try it out for a long time.

I mostly have sagging issues along w/ some loss of volume. I also have some expression lines that nothing but Botox knocks down.

A couple of spots I damaged years ago w/ a strong acid (trying to get rid of milia) need some help, too. But, those have greatly improved over the last few years, already.

I've read the PRP thread and am not sure it's something I need, especially after seeing Keliu's comment from her derm saying it's mostly used for skin texture. My texture is actually really good (besides PIH from blemishes-arrgh). No fine lines or age spots here. I have fair, even toned skin as well.

What is PRFM?

I'm glad to hear your derm approves of LEDs and thinks they work (albiet, slower) like lazers or IPLs. That news gives me incentive to continue using mine on a more consistent basis. Dancing

I honestly can't think of anything that resolves volume loss better than fat grafting. I've had a graft and I've been very pleased. It vastly improved the fat loss I got from laser.

free skin care · Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:22 am

whirleegig wrote:

I honestly can't think of anything that resolves volume loss better than fat grafting. I've had a graft and I've been very pleased. It vastly improved the fat loss I got from laser.

There are other options, Sculptra is one. I've heard that fat transplants are out of favour because only a certain percentage of the fat takes and the results aren't predictable. You can find out allot of information on facial fat loss and methods of dealing with it on websites for Aids patients.

free skin care · Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:51 am

HIV patients will loose the fat if they stay on the medications that cause fatloss but there are now alternative meds.
Grafting has a much higher percentage of staying capacity than it used to due to new technologies like gentle lipo, closed systems and PRP.

You make an important point, Keliu, in mentioning unpredictability in fat grafting. You don't want to go to just any Joe Schmoe for FG. I travelled halfway across the country to a PS who has over 20 years of experience with FG even though there are less experienced doctors offering it in my area.

I had it in July and have lost little although he was conservative and I've known all along that I'll need one touch-up. Conservative is best in FG IMO and my PS said not to do it unless I expected to have a touch-up. He will touch-up at a greatly reduced fee with my frozen adipose tissue.

free skin care · Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:53 am

I should add that FG success is highly lifestyle dependent. If you smoke, don't eat healthy or like to go on fad diets it's probably not a good choice for you.

free skin care · Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:59 pm

Did I neglect to answer the PRFM question? It's Platet Rich Fibrin Matrix. It's your own proteins combined with the platelets. Selphyl is popping up around the country as a "natural filler"

free skin care · Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:49 am

Keliu wrote:

He also said you need to be consistent with treatments and the more intense the laser, the better the results. Definitely a case of "more pain, more gain".

Dangerous advise.

The following quote is from a physician who perfoms laser treatments:

"I don't like to give my patients sedation or analgesia, because it interferes with their protective mechanism. If it's hurting at a 9 level, it's doing serious damage. I try to titrate to a pain level of 3-4. I have had a few problems with patients who have VERY high tolerance for pain, and will ask me to keep going... I have wizened to this over the years."

free skin care · Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:45 pm

Anne19 wrote:

Keliu wrote:

He also said you need to be consistent with treatments and the more intense the laser, the better the results. Definitely a case of "more pain, more gain".

Dangerous advise.

The following quote is from a physician who perfoms laser treatments:

"I don't like to give my patients sedation or analgesia, because it interferes with their protective mechanism. If it's hurting at a 9 level, it's doing serious damage. I try to titrate to a pain level of 3-4. I have had a few problems with patients who have VERY high tolerance for pain, and will ask me to keep going... I have wizened to this over the years."

To my knowledge, no sedation or analgesia (except topical) is ever given here for laser treatments.

My doctor was just making the point that the more superficial treatments will not yield the results that an intensive treatment will.

free skin care · Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:29 pm

I respect docs who don't use pain meds but one of the main points of the article is that after a certain threshold of heat, lasers cause damage.

free skin care · Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:55 am

Fat Grafting is a gamble. I have some some horrific examples of FG gone wrong by the top expert in the country.Be careful and do your research.For many people it does not last, it is a crap shoot and expensive.

free skin care · Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:16 am

Yes, trust me, I wish I didn't have to. But my face was literally melting from laser. It made the burning and pain stop and I look better.

You really, really have to choose a good doctor.

free skin care · Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:59 am

Don't chemical peels provide equivalent results to lasers?

If they do, I am not sure why the old tried and true method wouldn't be better - cheaper, longer history of effectiveness if you are in the hands of an experienced professional.??

BF

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