What Causes Nasolabial Lines?
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Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:00 am

I am happy to see that Deb Crowley has recently joined the forum, so this question is directed to her:

Hi Deb,

I've seen many different opinions and confusion on this subject so would like to know your thoughts: what exactly causes nasolabial lines, i mean exactly what muscles are involved? and what exercises specifically get rid of them?

Thanks.

free skin care · Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:49 am

Deb is not on EDS all that much. You are more likely to hear from Claudia or Sean or Cathy from Flex Effect.

Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:11 am

Well, maybe Claudia can tell Deb about this post.

If Deb doesn't answer maybe one of the other facial exercise authors could share her opinion? Carolyn? Carole? Lou Lou? or someone else... I really would like to hear from one of the experts in the industry. There's so much misinformation out there.

Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:30 am

Hi!! My understanding is, as you age, the skin’s supply of collagen and elastin, the proteins that give skin its structural support and elasticity, decrease. As skin thins with age, it also sags. Loss of fat in the cheeks causes the skin over the cheeks to droop and can deepen those lines further. Facial exercises can lift, smooth and tighten the n/l fold line area of the face with the correct combination of exercises.
First of all, a deep wrinkle is caused by skin adhering to underlying tissue. Whenever the muscle contracts, the skin is pulled down, creating a valley. It takes years of "unconscious", repetitive movement over and over again to create this valley we call a wrinkle. This is what you see as that line forms from the corner of the nose to the mouth. Now, because the muscles in the face go through the skin, allowing us to show facial expressions, when you build and tone the muscles of the face, you bring the skin up with this newly “tightened” muscle. The correct combination of facial exercises can release the stuck down skin, lift-up and build the cheeks and literally diminish and erase the n/l fold lines while sculpting a beautiful shape to the whole face and neck. Furthermore, the skin will also appear “thicker” as the skin and muscles tone and build.

free skin care · Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:26 pm

Thank you for explaining this so clearly! I really need to get off my lazy butt and look into which exercises...

Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:18 pm

Hi Carolyn,

Thanks very much for answering. I'm still a little confused, though. How can exercising the face correct for lost fat in the cheeks?

Also, it makes sense that repetitive muscle movements cause those nasolabial lines, but which muscles exactly and what types of repetitive movements? It would be nice to know what kinds of facial expressions to avoid!

And which muscles exactly should I work to get rid of the nasolabial lines?

It would be interesting to hear what other facial exercise creators like Carole Maggio or any of the others have to say on this topic. Claudia and Sean of FlexEffect are very active on the forum, so I would like to know what they think as well! (Of course, Deb is still welcome to answer)

free skin care · Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:50 am

I don' t think she was saying that facial exercise will cause the NL folds - she was referring to everyday repetitive facial movements causing some of the the NL look (such as scrunching up your face Sad

). In conjunction with SAG you can end up with obvious NL folds. Off hand I would think the levator labii (or any muscles that raise your lips into a sneer)would increase NL folds.

There are specific facial exercises aimed at working "out" the NL lines helping to release them and others for lifting this part of the face upward IE: cheek exercises. I've used some very good ones from Carole Maggio and Facial Yoga for getting rid of the NL lines. Most cheek exercises will help at lifting the cheeks off of the NL area; thus decreasing the fold. Most programs have some good cheek exercises.
The best thing is not so much the program but finding the facial exercise program that YOU WILL BE CONSISTENT WITH. One program may be in some ways superior over another but what's the point if you can't stick with it? I've done several and it comes down to how hard you work it, motivation to stick with it and having the right exercises. Most programs will have the NL area covered. I have better NL fold area today than I had four year ago before doing facial exercises - they have completely done the trick.

Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:04 am

I agree with you! I own many facial exercise programs myself and all of them target the n/l fold lines. While nothing can replace lost fat except possibly injections, when you exercise the face you not only improve the integrity of the connective tissue, you actually build muscle fiber that consequently gives an elegant and “fuller” look to the face by lifting and building the cheeks, for example . As you build muscle, you also produce collagen fibers and elastin fibers, as well. All these newly revitalized facial elements create the “look” and even the feel of a youthful, firmer face, even though that subcutaneous layer of fat has greatly dissipated with age.
On my website are a number of before and after photos showing the lifting, building and smoothing that happens to people engaging facial exercises. Take a look at Andrea. She was able to lift her n/l fold lines in just 10 months. There is also a wealth of articles on the science of how and why facial exercises are successful in achieving all this. I’ve also found that trying to “police” my facial expressions never works. Exercising the face takes that worry away, for you can correct most any aging to the face with facial exercises. There’s also an interactive muscle chart on the website that will show you exactly which muscles are engaged by each exercise to correct any issues to the aging face.

free skin care · Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:21 pm

It's pretty obvious to me that it's smiling that causes them, the smile folds. I have really high cheek bones and when I smile that's exactly where the skin stretches and folds to lift up my cheeks. Over time the elastin breaks down and doesn't fill back in and smooth out the line like in youth. I started getting them in my early twenties and now at 34 it's like there is a darkness, like the skin where the line is is darker than the sorounding skin, probably just the shadow. Though it makes me think that maybe makeup highlighters and illuminators might make it a little less noticible, though I don't wear makeup. For this reason I think some people are prone to them earlier because of their bone structure like Angelina Jolie or Mila Kunis.

free skin care · Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:40 am

HI GoldilocksHair, I’m not sure its true that they are very active on the forum, they do pop in now and again, but I haven’t seen Sean or Claudia for some months on here. I know Cathy pops in, but I have never seen Maggio on here either so just wanted to forewarn you from expecting an immediate answer, but why don’t you PM them, and they’ll get an email alerting them to your message. That might be faster.

GoldilocksHair wrote:

It would be interesting to hear what other facial exercise creators like Carole Maggio or any of the others have to say on this topic. Claudia and Sean of FlexEffect are very active on the forum, so I would like to know what they think as well! (Of course, Deb is still welcome to answer)

Carolyn, forgive me but Andrea’s photos seem very well staged. Her before photo is no where near the same quality as her after photo, I can tell this by looking at the colour of her eyes in the second photo, compared with her first where the eye colour is not visible. Also her hair is different and her facial expression are also different. The lighting is very different there too and that makes all the difference too. Have you got any photos of anyone that actually got rid of their NLs with your exercises and skincare products completely?

carolynCFF wrote:

I agree with you! I own many facial exercise programs myself and all of them target the n/l fold lines. While nothing can replace lost fat except possibly injections, when you exercise the face you not only improve the integrity of the connective tissue, you actually build muscle fiber that consequently gives an elegant and “fuller” look to the face by lifting and building the cheeks, for example . As you build muscle, you also produce collagen fibers and elastin fibers, as well. All these newly revitalized facial elements create the “look” and even the feel of a youthful, firmer face, even though that subcutaneous layer of fat has greatly dissipated with age.
On my website are a number of before and after photos showing the lifting, building and smoothing that happens to people engaging facial exercises. Take a look at Andrea. She was able to lift her n/l fold lines in just 10 months. There is also a wealth of articles on the science of how and why facial exercises are successful in achieving all this. I’ve also found that trying to “police” my facial expressions never works. Exercising the face takes that worry away, for you can correct most any aging to the face with facial exercises. There’s also an interactive muscle chart on the website that will show you exactly which muscles are engaged by each exercise to correct any issues to the aging face.

I managed to get rid of mine just this year (I’m now 61 – and never thought I’d get this far) but did it with a skin technique and not exercises. I never went after the NLs as my mother and grandmother had them, and it was never a concern for me, I was always worried re my cheeks, lips and neck (and forehead but that got sorted out with facial magic when I started in my 50’s). I’ve never seen or heard of anyone actually able to get rid of NL’s through exercising and wondered if it was a skin problem more than a muscle problem.

free skin care · Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:41 am

I know in my case it was certainly something that travelled through the generations (my mother and her mother had them). I also see them in my sons, and they're in their early 20's and 30's.

BYRG wrote:

It's pretty obvious to me that it's smiling that causes them, the smile folds. I have really high cheek bones and when I smile that's exactly where the skin stretches and folds to lift up my cheeks. Over time the elastin breaks down and doesn't fill back in and smooth out the line like in youth. I started getting them in my early twenties and now at 34 it's like there is a darkness, like the skin where the line is is darker than the sorounding skin, probably just the shadow. Though it makes me think that maybe makeup highlighters and illuminators might make it a little less noticible, though I don't wear makeup. For this reason I think some people are prone to them earlier because of their bone structure like Angelina Jolie or Mila Kunis.

free skin care · Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:18 am

Hi Goldilocks Hair (nice name btw).

Sorry I’m not an “active” user as such, and rarely visit here as much as I do in the older days simply because I’ve got a pretty manic schedule and both Deb and Claudia are the same, its not intentional I promise and we’d never ignore anyone intentionally but demands on our timing are quite tight, so if you do want to discuss further by all means pop over to our forum (which is always our first priority and often we’re doing things behind the scenes there).

Now you’re asking a brilliant question, but its also a difficult one to answer in words alone and so I would like to take some time in answering this, but I hope this will make things a little clearer. There isn’t one sole cause of NL’s and interestingly enough all the people I’ve worked with have had a combo of factors that we’ve worked on to help lessen them or remove them. If there was one sole cause then all surgical treatment methods would be the same, and as you know already there are vast differences in what they do for NLs (most common being fillers but there are other things done nowadays). Some people consider them to be the bain of their existence, and others don’t seem to care. I wish I knew what the latter secret was (those that don’t care) as I’m quite jealous of them and would love to be able to share it with people who did have NL issues.

Now there are a variety of factors involved in the creation of NLs. They can be sometimes due to some of the muscles like the zygo major and minor slackening (but not in all cases). They can also be a conversation about the start of bone diminishing, and even I’ve found at times that sometimes people who have lost a few teeth loose the support that prior to their loss prevented the NLs from forming. These examples are of course by no means limited as they can also be a conversation to do with the skin too.

Carolyn is correct when she says that as we age the supply of collagen, elastin and the proteins that give the skin its support does decrease. There is also a loss of facial fat (or volume) as the years advance on. Really they are kind of the signal of a process that has taken place. For example, when a facial muscle begins to lose its proteins, which fills the individual muscle fibres and gives it its size, the muscle shape will start to decrease, and then the elastin will begin to diminish also, and the skin starts to slacken as a result, then the subcutaneous fat will start to diminish (its actually stored between elastin and collagen fibres and to some degree within the muscle itself). So my approach tends to be on focusing on how to prevent that process from going any further and trying to reverse it.

For example I also believe that lines are always connected to dehydration, so when a line shows up I know from my own experience that to some degree that person is dehydrated in the lined area (whether this is on their foreheads, nl’s etc), and so I work with them to get their dehydration alert switched off, and that takes time. I also work with them to start including a high level of minerals (usually trying to get them onto a percentage of raw vegetables and fruits) to increase their body levels of minerals (as to me whenever skin slackens there is a lack of minerals). Usually when the skin has slackened, it won’t just be on the face, but in other places too.

Now obviously with the NLs themselves, there is a great of conversation involved with the zygomaticus muscles (both major and minors) but also many of the other muscles. When you examine the NL area, you can see that the actual lined area itself is a junction of several muscles and its never limited to just one.

So when you start to build up the muscles (or simply encourage them to become healthier) you start to help the facial muscles replace elastin fibres, collagen and subcutaneous fat. It doesn’t happen overnight and does rely on things like proper rest (so the body can regenerate and recuperate to the best of its ability) and diet (to enable the body to have the resources necessary to do its job) but it does happen over time. I know that doesn't directly answer your question as to what causes NL lines, but I'm hoping I've explained why its difficult to answer because it can be so individual. Even with the muscles mentioned, I can say I've worked with people who didn't have these muscles slackened but had some others and that created the appearance of NLs so its very much based on an individual by individual case. Hope this is useful to you!

Regards

Sean

Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:18 am

Hi Theresa Marie! Oh my! I do agree with you about the lighting. All of the photos you see on my website are sent to me by my clients and they try their best to take photos that show their progress. Andrea, for example is in New Zealand. However, even with the “different” lighting, one can see her eyelids are lifted, the lines in her face (she sent close-ups so I could see her progress better) are less and if you follow with your eyes along her jawline, you’ll see her jowls have lifted. You can also see that her cheeks have a more lifted and rounded look to them. As a consequence, her n/l fold lines are lifted up and out, as well. In her email to me, she told me these photos don’t do her justice. That “in person” she looks much more improved. Nonie had over-built her n/l fold lines and her recent photo along with all the rest shows how she truly re-built them to a more beautiful form.
I tried creams of every kind personally to get rid of my n/l fold lines and they helped with smoothing the look of my skin, but they did nothing for lifting them up and out, Only exercise or exercise techniques did this the way I wanted. And, yes, I agree that the combination of exercise and good skin care products give the best result. Both Sean and I agree. It’s the combination of factors all working together that gives you the results you want. And in my experience with n/l fold lines, facial exercise is a must!

free skin care · Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:43 am

I heard the same from FlexEffect but Carolyn the thing is in my mind if facial exercises work so well, why not get up an actual study of peoples faces and photos done by professionals to show there are dramatic changes that prove these things work.

For example we can only go by you word on many of the photos. Whilst Andrea's before photo does look different in the lower eye area, I can create that same look if I didn't sleep properly and then get a proper night sleep - hey presto my bags are gone.

Nonie is an example I've come across before, and from looking at your website, she's still got NLs although they are not as deep as they were - they are still there. I had to laugh at Katherine’s example though – the before photo is again in unflattering light, and she’s dressed up for a role, whereas the progress photo is her in better lighting and facial expression and the after photo looks like one for her portfolio – where she’s made up with makeup etc.

Even looking at your own photos (which the most recent one was from 3 years ago) you yourself still have NL’s present. So I’m wondering if you think that even though facial exercises can help them, they can’t remove them. I know when mine went, I was doing a skin massage type technique, and your comments above suggest that they are created when the skin adheres to the tissue maybe they can never vanish entirely.

free skin care · Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:06 am

Theresa, can you elaborate on how you got rid of yours? Where can I learn more about this massage technique? And what products did you use? How long did it take for them to go away? Thanks!

free skin care · Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:45 am

I've written about this in the past on EDS, so I don't want to repeat myself here and take the subject off track. All I will say is that I never was worried about them, as I figured I'd always have them and to me they weren't a concern compared with my darned forehead and jawline and neck (urghh - they're still a challenge at times).

BYRG wrote:

Theresa, can you elaborate on how you got rid of yours? Where can I learn more about this massage technique? And what products did you use? How long did it take for them to go away? Thanks!

Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:25 am

TheresaMary wrote:

I heard the same from FlexEffect but Carolyn the thing is in my mind if facial exercises work so well, why not get up an actual study of peoples faces and photos done by professionals to show there are dramatic changes that prove these things work.

For example we can only go by you word on many of the photos. Whilst Andrea's before photo does look different in the lower eye area, I can create that same look if I didn't sleep properly and then get a proper night sleep - hey presto my bags are gone.

Nonie is an example I've come across before, and from looking at your website, she's still got NLs although they are not as deep as they were - they are still there. I had to laugh at Katherine’s example though – the before photo is again in unflattering light, and she’s dressed up for a role, whereas the progress photo is her in better lighting and facial expression and the after photo looks like one for her portfolio – where she’s made up with makeup etc.

Quote:

Even looking at your own photos (which the most recent one was from 3 years ago) you yourself still have NL’s present. So I’m wondering if you think that even though facial exercises can help them, they can’t remove them. I know when mine went, I was doing a skin massage type technique, and your comments above suggest that they are created when the skin adheres to the tissue maybe they can never vanish entirely.

Hi, TheresaMary.

Actually, the most recent photo of Carolyn on her website is dated Decemeber 2009 - which is only 1 1/2 years ago, not 3 years. Also, I don't think anyone can possibly tell whether or not she has NLs, as she's smiling in all of the photos. If you want to see her full-face, making all sorts of expressions, there is a YouTube video on the website. HTH.

Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:41 am

To avoid confusion, I should add that the YouTube video I mentioned is an interview with Carolyn on Australia's 'Today' show, on 12/07/09. It's on the 'In the Media' section of the CFF website. HTH.

free skin care · Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:53 am

Thats simply a still from the interview, and thanks for mentioning it, but you can quite clearly see that Carolyn does have NLs still in place so I'm not sure that she is qualified to tell others how to get rid of them if she's still got them is she? I wish I was more technical and could do things with photos, as I'd highlight them, but just want to put the link here so people can see:

http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/today-show-clip

Likewise as this thread is specifically about NLs I'd like to just ask to see if any of Deb, Carolyn or anyone else actually has any proof that they can be gotten rid of entirely - as none of the before or afters on any of the sites I've looked at shows the removal of these, and as Carolyn has said already these are caused by the skin adhereing to the muscles, so maybe for NLs to be treated it needs to not have facial exercises but skin treatments?

Actually when I was talking about photos, what I was referring to re no recent ones was this page:

http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/pictures-of-carolyn

And in all the photos you can see she has NLs quite clearly to me - there is a large indentation or line underneath the cheeks themselves

newera wrote:

To avoid confusion, I should add that the YouTube video I mentioned is an interview with Carolyn on Australia's 'Today' show, on 12/07/09. It's on the 'In the Media' section of the CFF website. HTH.

Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:20 am

TheresaMary wrote:

Thats simply a still from the interview, and thanks for mentioning it, but you can quite clearly see that Carolyn does have NLs still in place so I'm not sure that she is qualified to tell others how to get rid of them if she's still got them is she? I wish I was more technical and could do things with photos, as I'd highlight them, but just want to put the link here so people can see:

http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/today-show-clip

Likewise as this thread is specifically about NLs I'd like to just ask to see if any of Deb, Carolyn or anyone else actually has any proof that they can be gotten rid of entirely - as none of the before or afters on any of the sites I've looked at shows the removal of these, and as Carolyn has said already these are caused by the skin adhereing to the muscles, so maybe for NLs to be treated it needs to not have facial exercises but skin treatments?

Actually when I was talking about photos, what I was referring to re no recent ones was this page:

http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/pictures-of-carolyn

And in all the photos you can see she has NLs quite clearly to me - there is a large indentation or line underneath the cheeks themselves

newera wrote:

To avoid confusion, I should add that the YouTube video I mentioned is an interview with Carolyn on Australia's 'Today' show, on 12/07/09. It's on the 'In the Media' section of the CFF website. HTH.

Hi again, TheresaMary,

I was just about to write again, but you beat me to it - because I saw where there was a confusion about the photos of Carolyn. There are two sets of photos on the website, but the set that I was talking about is in the 'Pictures of Carolyn' section, in the 'About Carolyn' bit on the left side of the web page. Sorry, that's a bit of a mouthful but I hope it's clear what I mean. The latest photo there is from December 2009. The NLs that are so clear to you in the photos aren't clear to me - I just see the shadow that naturally shows underneath a smile. I see it in photos of my grandchildren, aged from 4 to 16. I'm looking at them now.

Also, the 'Today' show clip isn't just a still - it's a question-and-answer interview with Carolyn, with her demonstrating some of the exercises as well. Just click on the Play arrow in the centre and it will play. HTH.

free skin care · Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:36 am

Ok well I’d like to see a more recent photo of this year, rather than 2009, as I imagine there would be more changes and perhaps Carolyn has gotten rid of her NL’s line (I’d like to give her benefit of the doubt).

The 2009 photo is hard because its both got very bright lighting and is taken at a big angle, but if you look at say where the cheek is raised there is a definitive line that runes from beside her nose downt o her mouth corners and its visible in all her photos from what I can see. That’s the NL line I’m talking about that runs from the nose to mouth corners. Of course in all her photos she’s smiling too which hides a multitude of things, but i had the same criticism of Deb Crowley’s photos a while back – why there is none of her full face etc and why she smiles so Carolyn isn’t alone in this.

Whilst I agree I’ve seen it in photos of children too, the difference is when the child stops smiling, the skin shows no trace of it, but for us adults it can be a very different story. I used to have deep inset lines that were there nonstop whether I was smiling or not, and now I’m pleased to say I still have a line when I smile, but when I stop smiling its vanished completely which wasn’t the case 1, 2 or even 10 years ago. It was never a concern for me, I kind of gave up thinking that i’d always have them, but hubby pointed out that they had lessened a great deal (and of course when he said that to me I ran to the mirror to look at what he was talking about) and they had reduced significantly and now are no where near as visible when not smiling.

With the ‘Today’ clip when you first log onto the website a still is shown. Whilst you may argue and say that it’s a q&a session and demo, the image at first is a still and again you can see that same line from the nose to mouth.

newera wrote:

TheresaMary wrote:

Thats simply a still from the interview, and thanks for mentioning it, but you can quite clearly see that Carolyn does have NLs still in place so I'm not sure that she is qualified to tell others how to get rid of them if she's still got them is she? I wish I was more technical and could do things with photos, as I'd highlight them, but just want to put the link here so people can see:

http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/today-show-clip

Likewise as this thread is specifically about NLs I'd like to just ask to see if any of Deb, Carolyn or anyone else actually has any proof that they can be gotten rid of entirely - as none of the before or afters on any of the sites I've looked at shows the removal of these, and as Carolyn has said already these are caused by the skin adhereing to the muscles, so maybe for NLs to be treated it needs to not have facial exercises but skin treatments?

Actually when I was talking about photos, what I was referring to re no recent ones was this page:

http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/pictures-of-carolyn

And in all the photos you can see she has NLs quite clearly to me - there is a large indentation or line underneath the cheeks themselves

newera wrote:

To avoid confusion, I should add that the YouTube video I mentioned is an interview with Carolyn on Australia's 'Today' show, on 12/07/09. It's on the 'In the Media' section of the CFF website. HTH.

Hi again, TheresaMary,

I was just about to write again, but you beat me to it - because I saw where there was a confusion about the photos of Carolyn. There are two sets of photos on the website, but the set that I was talking about is in the 'Pictures of Carolyn' section, in the 'About Carolyn' bit on the left side of the web page. Sorry, that's a bit of a mouthful but I hope it's clear what I mean. The latest photo there is from December 2009. The NLs that are so clear to you in the photos aren't clear to me - I just see the shadow that naturally shows underneath a smile. I see it in photos of my grandchildren, aged from 4 to 16. I'm looking at them now.

Also, the 'Today' show clip isn't just a still - it's a question-and-answer interview with Carolyn, with her demonstrating some of the exercises as well. Just click on the Play arrow in the centre and it will play. HTH.

free skin care · Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:11 am

TheresaMary wrote:

I've written about this in the past on EDS, so I don't want to repeat myself here and take the subject off track. All I will say is that I never was worried about them, as I figured I'd always have them and to me they weren't a concern compared with my darned forehead and jawline and neck (urghh - they're still a challenge at times).

BYRG wrote:

Theresa, can you elaborate on how you got rid of yours? Where can I learn more about this massage technique? And what products did you use? How long did it take for them to go away? Thanks!

Do you recall what thread you shared the specifics on? That would be great! Thanks!

free skin care · Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:44 am

I wrote about it in several threads, just search under my name and rid of NL lines and you should come up with a few threads where I mentioned it. I don't know if it will work for everyone but it worked for me!

kims wrote:

Do you recall what thread you shared the specifics on? That would be great! Thanks!

free skin care · Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:02 pm

TheresaMary- I spent some time going through your old posts and the only thing I could find referring to your NL success was that you attributed it to the 3rd edition of FlexEffect. Is that what you mean?

free skin care · Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:54 am

Well when I searched I got several answers but yes to answer your question I suspectd that it was the cross stretching of the 3rd edition that got rid of my NL lines.... but I hate to say that I jumped right in and did it straight off rather than waiting the alloted year or whatsoever but I did facial exercises for some 9 years prior to that so think I had a good grounding.

jenp7 wrote:

TheresaMary- I spent some time going through your old posts and the only thing I could find referring to your NL success was that you attributed it to the 3rd edition of FlexEffect. Is that what you mean?

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