Shop with us!!! We sell the most advanced skin care anti-aging cosmetics on the market: cellex-c, phytomer, sothys, dermalogica, md formulations, decleor, valmont, kinerase, yonka, jane iredale, thalgo, yon-ka, ahava, bioelements, jan marini, peter thomas roth, murad, ddf, orlane, glominerals, StriVectin SD.
 
 back to skin care discussion board front page with forums indexEDS Skin Care Forums Search the ForumSearch Most popular all-time Forum TopicsHot! Library
 Guidelines  FAQ  Register
Free gifts for Forum MembersForum Gifts Free Gifts offers at Essential Day SpaFree Gifts Offers  Log in



Donell Brightening Cream (1 oz) Fake Bake Bronzy Babe Pressed Powder (11 g / 0.39 oz) Bioelements All Things Pure Cleanser (103 ml / 3.5 floz)
Sagging jaw line - help?

EDS Skin Care Forums Forum Index » Skin Care and Makeup Forum
Reply to topic
Author Message
agee
Full Member
5% products discount

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 22
Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:01 pm      Reply with quote
Is there an effective product that lifts and firms a sagging jawline? I hope there is something that works! I know surgery is the sure-fix, but I really do not want surgery.
Thank you
Lucia
VIP Member
20% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 1003
Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:31 pm      Reply with quote
DMAE has been shown to have a noticeable firming effect on skin, obviously its not going to be as dramatic as surgical correction but a prodyct containing this ingredient might be worth a try?

(Note the was ONE study showing that in an alkaline form in high concentrations there *may* be cell damage caused by DMAE BUT it is worth noting that many skin correcting ingredients work by controlled damage (glycolic/Retinol etc). It is also worth noting that DMAE in skincare is pH balanced and in much lower concentrations than those used in the study - DMAE has been used successfully for over a decade.)

L x

_________________
Lucia, VERY fair (ghostly so!)redhead, combination skin prone to dehydration.
SoftSkin
VIP Member
20% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
Posts: 1214
Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:58 pm      Reply with quote
If you do decide to try it, use it only on one side of your face for a month, then compare it to the non-treated side. I'm guessing there will be little to no difference. That way you avoid the Wishful Thinking Syndrome most people acquire with beauty products.

Other than surgery, you could have fat injections into your face to plump it up which would take up some slack. With the money women waste on creams and potions, they could have paid for surgery.
Nonie aka AD
Preferred Member
15% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 30 Jul 2011
Posts: 866
Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:20 pm      Reply with quote
I will repeat what I just shared in another discussion asking about the neck. I'm sorry but I haven't tried any "products" that you apply to skin, but I have proof that toning the muscles of the face will lift your jawline up. Since I can't post links, you'll have to copy and paste the strings I've posted. If they don't work just as is, try putting 3 w's and a . before the addresses.

Nonie aka AD wrote:
Hi Marcia36:

You can do any of the following--although I still maintain that you're better off doing a full program rather than spot training and the first link is actually to a short program that would be easy to adopt.

shapeyourface.com (Exercise 4)--but I recommend doing all 5 exercises and making them part of your daily regimen.

youtube.com/user/FacialExercises#p/a/u/1/aFO1gGNt3Gg (The neck exercise--probably the stretch one mentioned by azumma (I'm guessing)--starts at 4:15)

Underneath the diagram on the next link is a link to a clip showing a great exercise for chin, jowls and neck: evafraser.com/facial_fitness.html
Glamcat
Preferred Member
15% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 420
Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:02 pm      Reply with quote
SoftSkin wrote:
With the money women waste on creams and potions, they could have paid for surgery.


I would agree with that most definitely! Wink

Also Botox around your eyes may work because it has a lifting effect.

Last year I had Botox down around my eyes as a preventative (I dont yet have any crow's feet or wrinkles, miraculously! I think God thinks I have enough issues to deal with so has spared me for the time being! Laughing ), and I noticed that it had the lovely effect of lifting my cheeks - now that it has worn off my cheeks definitely have some droopage going on so I'm thinking of having it done again for the cheek lifting effect. Temporary but effective... Wink
Lucia
VIP Member
20% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 1003
Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:43 am      Reply with quote
Not everyone wants to inject things into themselves or go under the knife though,(whether or not they can afford it) in which case choosing specific ingredients that have been shown to have an effect (albeit less noticeable and more subtle than surgical intervention)can be helpful.
The half face idea is a good idea, obviously if you have a very relaxed jawline and neck then a topical is not going to help much. Exercise will to some degree as the muscles support the skin but if the skin is still slack even exercise will have a limited effect.
However, if the slackening is in its early stages and the underlying muscle tone is good then ingredients like DMAE can be helpful.
Smile

_________________
Lucia, VERY fair (ghostly so!)redhead, combination skin prone to dehydration.
Nonie aka AD
Preferred Member
15% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 30 Jul 2011
Posts: 866
Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:09 pm      Reply with quote
Lucia wrote:
Not everyone wants to inject things into themselves or go under the knife though,(whether or not they can afford it) in which case choosing specific ingredients that have been shown to have an effect (albeit less noticeable and more subtle than surgical intervention)can be helpful.
The half face idea is a good idea, obviously if you have a very relaxed jawline and neck then a topical is not going to help much. Exercise will to some degree as the muscles support the skin but if the skin is still slack even exercise will have a limited effect. However, if the slackening is in its early stages and the underlying muscle tone is good then ingredients like DMAE can be helpful.
Smile


Actually Lucia, unlike the skin of the body, the skin of the face is attached to the muscles of the face so toning the muscles will smooth out the skin. The sag is due to weak muscles of the face. One may argue that people use their faces to make expressions all the time so how can muscles be "weak". But what people don't realize is the face muscles are so many and they overlap, go in different directions and unlike thos of the body which attach to bone, the muscles of the face attach to skin and each other, so the fact that there are some expression you make regularly doesn't mean all the muscles under that part get used in those movements. The end result is some muscles get worked regularly and stay toned, but others related to them don't and get slack. So face exercises, if well designed, ensure that all muscles of the face get a workout--especially the "dormant ones" so that there can be a uniform tone and lifting of the face.

If you check out before/after photos on face exercise websites, there is proof that exercise can improve the jawline. Better yet, if you look at all the instructors, if there's one thing you will notice is they all have a beautiful, toned jawline.

Here are a few examples:

flexeffect.com/VickkiBA.htm

carolynsfacialfitness.com/maria

This next one shows a beautiful young lady who doesn't look like she needed face exercises, but notice how the definition of her jawline improved between May 2008 and July 2008:
shapeyourface.com/forum/messages/2/6180.html?1230559388

You can even test this yourself by trying out the exercises I suggested. You'll feel your jaw and neck muscles working. Try it daily for a spell and you'll be surprised at how well they work.
Lucia
VIP Member
20% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 1003
Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:55 pm      Reply with quote
Umm as a British Beauty therapist I am WELL aware how the muscles attach to the skin of the face.(Part of my training involved the anatomy and biology of the body including the face, to include all the muscles and the origins and insertions and how they interacted!) But it doesn't change the fact that very damaged and aged skin cannot and will not firm up completely however good the underlying muscle tone is! I never said facial exercise wouldn't improve things (I do them myself actually and have done for over 10 years! I have also seen dramatic improvements from facial toning systems that cause muscle contractions so no I would be far from surprised actually!) I merely stated that it in some cases will not 'cure' the problem entirely. If there is collagen breakdown and loss then the sag will still be there albeit less than if the muscles were poorly toned.
This is were certain topicals can help. Wink

Incidentally the examples you posted all have appear to have decent skin condition. Sun damaged crepey skin is not going to have such an improvement.
Hence my advice to do exercises AND use an appropriate topical. Smile

_________________
Lucia, VERY fair (ghostly so!)redhead, combination skin prone to dehydration.
Toby
VIP Member
20% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 2647
Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:05 pm      Reply with quote
Lucia,
With your knowledge and background what tropicals do you recommend? Also what is your thought about microcurrent devices and are they as effective as facial exercises? Last question,,,,sorry to pick your brain, what facial exercises do you use?
Thank you,
Toby

_________________
female,"50 something" medium to thick normal skin, no wrinkles,Lightstim,Easy Eye Solutions,Green Smoothies,Ageless Secret Gold, Pico Toner,Beautiful Image
Nonie aka AD
Preferred Member
15% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 30 Jul 2011
Posts: 866
Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:20 pm      Reply with quote
Lucia wrote:
Umm as a British Beauty therapist I am WELL aware how the muscles attach to the skin of the face.(Part of my training involved the anatomy and biology of the body including the face, to include all the muscles and the origins and insertions and how they interacted!) But it doesn't change the fact that very damaged and aged skin cannot and will not firm up completely however good the underlying muscle tone is! I never said facial exercise wouldn't improve things (I do them myself actually and have done for over 10 years! I have also seen dramatic improvements from facial toning systems that cause muscle contractions so no I would be far from surprised actually!) I merely stated that it in some cases will not 'cure' the problem entirely. If there is collagen breakdown and loss then the sag will still be there albeit less than if the muscles were poorly toned.
This is were certain topicals can help. Wink

Incidentally the examples you posted all have appear to have decent skin condition. Sun damaged crepey skin is not going to have such an improvement.
Hence my advice to do exercises AND use an appropriate topical. Smile


I beg your pardon Lucia, but with all due respect, your previous post stated a point I thought I should clarify: You said that if the skin is slack, face exercises will have a limited effect and that is the point I disagree with.

Sag isn't just caused by sun damage. In fact sun is more responsible for wrinkles than sag. Sag happens when gravity pulls on facial muscles. I don't know if you've heard the phrase "black don't crack". It's not entirely true but the point being that skin with melanin does not wrinkle as much as pale skin even when exposed to sun. However the sag will happen and that's the main give away for a lot of black people. Jowls hang and furrows form not to mention N/L lines. And in the case of this sag, which appears to be skin sagging, I can bet my bottom dollar exercise can fix that. I am not just talking out my rear, I have seen it with my own eyes happen to friends that I encouraged to do it. I cannot speak for other areas but the neck, chin and jowls are areas I know can be helped by exercise.

If the skin is thin, then cords will form with that toning and this is where copper peptides may come in handy or other remodeling products. So I'm not discounting that a combo might be best. I just cannot sit back and not speak to a truth I know. Toned muscle fix sagging. Topical products work on smoothing out the surface and cell renewal which to an extent can help with thickening...but that has nothing to do with sag.
Lucia
VIP Member
20% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 1003
Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:04 am      Reply with quote
Well clearly despite my qualifications and many years experience I obviously don't know or understand the 'truth'. So rather than get into an argument I will bow to your superior knowledge and wind my neck in. Laughing

_________________
Lucia, VERY fair (ghostly so!)redhead, combination skin prone to dehydration.
Nonie aka AD
Preferred Member
15% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 30 Jul 2011
Posts: 866
Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:43 am      Reply with quote
Lucia wrote:
Well clearly despite my qualifications and many years experience I obviously don't know or understand the 'truth'. So rather than get into an argument I will bow to your superior knowledge and wind my neck in. Laughing


LOL Laughing I appreciate it. Coz experience in face exercises and what they can accomplish I most certainly do have, and I more than double your experience in them so you're right, I do have superior knowledge there. I respect your knowledge on other stuff which is why I didn't touch on stuff I am not qualified to address and left that to you who has years of experience in it. Wink
rileygirl
VIP Member
20% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 9519
Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:04 am      Reply with quote
Lucia wrote:
If there is collagen breakdown and loss then the sag will still be there albeit less than if the muscles were poorly toned.
This is were certain topicals can help. Wink

Hence my advice to do exercises AND use an appropriate topical. Smile


Hi Lucia. I am interested in hearing what topicals you recommend. Thanks!
Lucia
VIP Member
20% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 1003
Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:59 pm      Reply with quote
Toby/Rileygirl.
I learnt various exercises from my mentor who had come up with her own, I would say they are most similar to 'Facercise' by Carole Maggio though. As to microcurrent devices (slendertone for the face!) they can and are helpful but you do need a decent machine and you do need a decent knowledge of facial anatomy to get the best results (although usually they come with detailed diagrams that can help). I found they were most helpful lifting the brow and eye area, and to a lesser extent they are effective on the jaw as its harder to get a good muscle contraction on ALL the necessary muscles to produce a lift.
As for topicals for firming effects look for ingredients such as DMAE, which can firm and tighten skin, Alpha Lipoic Acid works to give a glow (and as a potent antioxidant will help prevent further damage) Matrixyl helps collagen synthesis which will improve overall skin condition and plumpness longer term.
Other ingredients I like over all are Vitamin C, peptides and hyaluronic acid.
AHA's and BHA's can be useful but you do need to introduce gradually and wear a photo stable sunscreen (ditto retinoids. The tricky part is finding which active actually works for you, one topical will work better for you than others. (My skin hates Copper Peptides for example).

If you want to experiment on a budget, you can get samples from websites such as skin-beautiful.com or DianaYvonne (I prefer the former).

Oh and be aware that DMAE amine is not the most pleasant smelling ingredient in the world (it is derived from fish!). It is available in various concentrations from 1% to about 4%. I would suggest introducing it slowly especially if you use a higher % as it can cause irritation.

Whatever you try remember no topical is going to to be a miracle, its not going to work instantly (long term consistent use is key) although you should see more cosmetic benefits within a few weeks (so a bit more glow, better hydration etc). Patch test patch test patch test! These are actives so can cause irritation in some people. Try it in the same place on your inner arm or behind your ear at least 2 or three days in succession, then if you have not had a reaction introduce into your routine gradually.

Obviously none of these ingredients will produce an improvement as dramatic as surgery or fillers/botox would, but if you don't want to go down that route the above topicals are worth a shot.

Hope that helps. Smile

(Apologies for any spelling errors - I am trying to type around my cat! Laughing )

_________________
Lucia, VERY fair (ghostly so!)redhead, combination skin prone to dehydration.
RussianSunshine
VIP Member
20% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 2014
Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:29 pm      Reply with quote
Whatever experience you have, Nonie aka AD, with all due respect, facial exercises are not for everyone. I have not seen any decent photo of a facial exercise junkie. And by decent I mean a) convincing ( same light, good quality) and b) showing a face with beautiful features aka feminine and natural. (e.g., Carol Maggio face looks a little bit clownish to me and goes against my idea of beauty).

I, too, have a strong belief in topicals and medical procedures but facial exercises might cause wrinkles and make face less attractive IMHO.



Nonie aka AD wrote:
Lucia wrote:
Well clearly despite my qualifications and many years experience I obviously don't know or understand the 'truth'. So rather than get into an argument I will bow to your superior knowledge and wind my neck in. Laughing


LOL Laughing I appreciate it. Coz experience in face exercises and what they can accomplish I most certainly do have, and I more than double your experience in them so you're right, I do have superior knowledge there. I respect your knowledge on other stuff which is why I didn't touch on stuff I am not qualified to address and left that to you who has years of experience in it. Wink

_________________
dermal integrity & fawnie skincare, MTS Rollers; Retin A, mesotherapy; EltaMd physical tinted sunblock
packratmack
Preferred Member
15% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 04 Jul 2009
Posts: 569
Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:26 pm      Reply with quote
RussianSunshine wrote:
I have not seen any decent photo of a facial exercise junkie. And by decent I mean a) convincing ( same light, good quality) and b) showing a face with beautiful features aka feminine and natural.


You really need to see a picture of Loli at the Flex Effect Forums. The woman is in her fifties and she looks amazing. I don't need quality photos to be convinced of her success.
RussianSunshine
VIP Member
20% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 2014
Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:52 pm      Reply with quote
packratmack, by no means I want to stir up big debate among those who are convinced about facial exercises and who are not. I am just saying that facial exercises are not for everyone. I know a few women who are in their late forties and look amazing, and they do not do any facial exercises.


packratmack wrote:
RussianSunshine wrote:
I have not seen any decent photo of a facial exercise junkie. And by decent I mean a) convincing ( same light, good quality) and b) showing a face with beautiful features aka feminine and natural.


You really need to see a picture of Loli at the Flex Effect Forums. The woman is in her fifties and she looks amazing. I don't need quality photos to be convinced of her success.

_________________
dermal integrity & fawnie skincare, MTS Rollers; Retin A, mesotherapy; EltaMd physical tinted sunblock
Nonie aka AD
Preferred Member
15% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 30 Jul 2011
Posts: 866
Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:58 pm      Reply with quote
RussianSunshine wrote:
Whatever experience you have, Nonie aka AD, with all due respect, facial exercises are not for everyone. I have not seen any decent photo of a facial exercise junkie. And by decent I mean a) convincing ( same light, good quality) and b) showing a face with beautiful features aka feminine and natural. (e.g., Carol Maggio face looks a little bit clownish to me and goes against my idea of beauty).

I, too, have a strong belief in topicals and medical procedures but facial exercises might cause wrinkles and make face less attractive IMHO.


RussianSunshine Well, you're entitled to your opinion that face exercises are not for everyone but that doesn't negate my statement that they do stop sag or improve on it. I gave links to that effect...and one doesn't need a change of light to see that in the pics I selected for Vikki on FE that she had a bulge that was clearly a hanging jowl that smoothed out with face exercises.

I didn't say topicals don't work and I don't disagree with you that some face exercise CAN cause wrinkles. But I do have PROOF that they do work. And it's got nothing to do with genes because as I've shown before, my eyes are naturally droopy. They are the eyes I was born with and that my whole family has. But now I have the sort of eyes people pay crazy money to go under the knife for. And I got them from face exercises alone. So in my case, face exercises have actually worked positively for me, because I get more compliments on my eyes than on anything else. If you missed the images of the changes in my eyes here is the page where they are posted: essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=43031

RussianSunshine wrote:
I have not seen any decent photo of a facial exercise junkie. And by decent I mean a) convincing ( same light, good quality) and b) showing a face with beautiful features aka feminine and natural.


You don't think Eva looks feminine and natural and good for someone in her 80's?
2.bp.blogspot.com/_doMzGF0zZBw/Ss4QofpMuKI/AAAAAAAAB9M/ltNdzGI919g/s320/eva_fraser_photo.jpg

If that isn't feminine and natural, then I sure don't know what is! And she's had at least 30 years' experience with face exercises.

I just did a Google search for "80-year old woman smiling" to try to see what shows up and Eva looks way younger than all of those (Did you notice her neckline and absence of jowls? Wink) I'd be thrilled to bits if I looked like her at her age! I'm not sure what topicals you would recommend but I've asked Eva what she thinks of copper peptides and retinols and she doesn't believe in them. So it's safe to assume they aren't on her regimen.

In response to your statement that there are people who look great in their 40's and beyond, I'm not sure what that has to do with the discussion at hand. We were discussing sagging jowls and the fact that face exercises can help. (Or in my case, prevent them from ever coming to be if one starts face exercises before the problems happen.)

There are people who never exercise but have firm and beautiful bodies and are never out of breath or hurting or feeling groggy. Does that mean exercise isn't for them? No, but they are lucky they can get away without doing exercise and still look good and appear to be in good health. Could they be in better shape if they exercised, most likely yes. Could they also hurt themselves and be handicapped or permanently injured from doing the wrong exercises? Absolutely!

So in the case of the body, some people believe in exercise and can share the good they know it does and correct any misinformation that might be put out there which downplays the effectiveness of exercise to stay fit and in shape. Others would suggest going under the knife for a little nip and tuck to get the fat removed and silhouette improved. Others would suggest getting massages, cellulite treatment, body wraps to get the look. In each case, people familiar with the procedures should be free to share their knowledge and correct any erroneous info.

Which is what packratmack and I are trying to do here with regards to the face/neckline and face exercises. Not debate, but assuming you're open to new info, share what we do know w/r/t face exercises and their success, so you can perhaps learn something new that you were not aware of before.

Of course if your mind is made up, then there's no getting through to you. And that's OK. The most important thing is that you do what you believe in and you don't change what is working for you. But I would hate for those who actually care to learn more and who have already tried one thing, miss out on useful info on stuff they haven't tried because people who may have only seen one side of the story are the only ones sharing that side. So it's not about debate. It's addressing points you bring up so anyone who might've wondered the same thing and who isn't satisfied with their current regimen as you appear to be with yours, may perhaps find the answer they were looking for. Peace!
RussianSunshine
VIP Member
20% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 2014
Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:10 pm      Reply with quote
Nonie, the photos you provided are very impressive, I must admit. The reason I mentioned those two women who look fabulously in their late 40s, and according to my knowledge, do not do any exercises, is twofold.

Firstly, I do not believe (and this is my subjective opinion) that there is a room for improvement in terms of how they look. Their bodies are not that great, but as far as their faces go, I would be very pleased to look like them when I am in my 40s (no sagging, plump cheeks, just a few sun spots).

Secondly, I know those women personally, and what I have observed about them is that both of them rarely show emotions or facial expressions. Hence, I humbly hypothesized that this lack of facial movements and some sort of rigidness is partly responsible for their youthful appearances.

Are they going to look so fabulous as Eva when they will be 80, one can only guess. The point is that even a hundred of cases do not prove anything. There are a lot of facial exercise proponents on this forum, and I pay attention to what they have to say, but I still remain very dubious about this. In fact, I believe that a face should not be stretched or touched at all (slight massage with a washcloth is ok).

As far as the topicals go, I can only say what works for me. I am too young to have sagging jowls but I have always had a little bit of a double chin and round, somewhat chubby cheeks even thought I am pretty slender. If you google "russian women pictures" you will understand what I mean. Very Happy I've been using CPs and retinoids for 7 years now and can testify about the effectiveness of those two topicals in terms of providing firmness to the skin. I also use dermaroller and AALS occasionally (both help).

Lucia has mentioned other topicals that I heard are good, but I have not tested them. Toby, if I remember it correctly, mentioned that STOP and Safetox might help with sagging as well.

_________________
dermal integrity & fawnie skincare, MTS Rollers; Retin A, mesotherapy; EltaMd physical tinted sunblock
agee
Full Member
5% products discount

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 22
Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:41 pm      Reply with quote
Wow! So much good information - thanks you for all your replies... now I have plenty of options to try.
Nonie aka AD
Preferred Member
15% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 30 Jul 2011
Posts: 866
Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:15 pm      Reply with quote
RussianSunshine wrote:
Nonie, the photos you provided are very impressive, I must admit. The reason I mentioned those two women who look fabulously in their late 40s, and according to my knowledge, do not do any exercises, is twofold.

Firstly, I do not believe (and this is my subjective opinion) that there is a room for improvement in terms of how they look. Their bodies are not that great, but as far as their faces go, I would be very pleased to look like them when I am in my 40s (no sagging, plump cheeks, just a few sun spots).

Secondly, I know those women personally, and what I have observed about them is that both of them rarely show emotions or facial expressions. Hence, I humbly hypothesized that this lack of facial movements and some sort of rigidness is partly responsible for their youthful appearances.

Are they going to look so fabulous as Eva when they will be 80, one can only guess. The point is that even a hundred of cases do not prove anything. There are a lot of facial exercise proponents on this forum, and I pay attention to what they have to say, but I still remain very dubious about this. In fact, I believe that a face should not be stretched or touched at all (slight massage with a washcloth is ok).

As far as the topicals go, I can only say what works for me. I am too young to have sagging jowls but I have always had a little bit of a double chin and round, somewhat chubby cheeks even thought I am pretty slender. If you google "russian women pictures" you will understand what I mean. Very Happy I've been using CPs and retinoids for 7 years now and can testify about the effectiveness of those two topicals in terms of providing firmness to the skin. I also use dermaroller and AALS occasionally (both help).

Lucia has mentioned other topicals that I heard are good, but I have not tested them. Toby, if I remember it correctly, mentioned that STOP and Safetox might help with sagging as well.


Hi RussianSunshine:

I like your screen name by the way, especially now that I know it's actually relevant to who you are.

I get your point completely, which is why I gave the example of someone whose body is shapely, well-toned and in generally good health whom to many needs no exercises as s/he looks fantastic. Such a person could (1) just do nothing and stay beautiful; or (2) go to a spa for regular beauty treatments for the entire body; or (3) go to the gym to work out and maintain that body. If any of those are done safely and well, they would not change what is. If anything they might just make it last longer.

I think today's culture is so used to waiting till things go wrong and then putting on a bandaid. We eat food high in cholesterol and only quit when we get congested blood vessels and a heart failure. We smoke and indulge in excess alcohol and only quit when our lungs or liver give up on us. We text while we drive, drive while we're drunk and only wake up to the wrong in these acts when lives are lost.

When I started face exercises, I was 20. There was nothing wrong with my face. I had no wrinkles, no sag, and my droopy upper eyelids didn't even bother me. In fact, I knew nothing about that being a negative thing. I was honestly happy with my face. Not many people can say that, but I truly was. I'll tell you what I wasn't happy with though: being clueless on makeup. I was 20 and all my friends seemed to know how to wear makeup for a night out...while I was all thumbs. And I was embarrassed about being so ignorant so I went to a bookstore to buy a book on makeup so I could give myself private lessons. While browsing the aisles, I saw a book on face exercises and it intrigued me. The idea that a face could be stopped from aging, which is what I understood face exercises to do then--they actually just slow things down--really intrigued me. Suddenly a good makeover didn't seem so cool anymore. "A toned face w/o lines would look better any day than a wrinkly face" I thought. I mused about having the same face I had then many years later...and that's how I came to start face exercises at such an early age when I didn't need to fix anything.

Like the two women you know who look good in their 40's I looked fine at 20, yet I still did face exercises. And what that did is preserve what I had so that I still looked good at 30...and I am very happy with my face in my 40's. Rather than wait till something needed fixing, I went on the premise that prevention is better than cure, and it has served me well. I don't need to wonder what my face would have looked like if I hadn't done face exercises because my siblings are now in their 30's (I'm the eldest) and while they don't look horrible, I do see changes I never got to have like crows' feet when I smile. Even to this day, I don't get crows' feet when I smile or laugh. And because I do not use any anti-aging topical product, the only thing I can attribute this to is face exercises.

You mention facial expressions or absence thereof in the women you know who look great in their 40's and believe that it proves that exercise would make wrinkles worse. And that's where a disconnect occurs between those who understand face exercises and those who don't. When we make the same repeated movements like smiling or frowning, we create the same creases over and over and over again...till we almost iron creases into our faces. When a good face exercises program is created, it engages other muscles that move differently from the ones that form the "usual" creases and these "previously unused" muscles open up the crease as they tone up and pull the skin in a different direction. For people who wait to start face exercises late in life, this has the effect of opening up the crease FIRST and making the wrinkles very wide and prominent. This toning under the skin also pushes up and out on the crease, further opening the wrinkle up and again making it appear wide (read: large). That can scare one who's not aware of what's going on. But the opening up is also a flattening out: that crease eventally gets smoothed out and the wrinkle is erased. Along with improved tone is improved elasticity...so that rather than have creases remain when you complete an expression, your face returns to a relaxed, unlined state after you finish the expression like it normally does on younger skin. Because I have done face exercise for so long, I have helped preserve my elasticity somewhat so I do not have to sacrifice facial expression to keep lines away. In fact, face exercises can keep creases from being deep when you make facial expressions so there's little chance of a crease being left behind when you finish the expressions. Laugh lines become shallow like those of youth and they disappear when you finish the laughing. Unlike faces w/ Botox that look frozen and unnatural, face exercises give you the freedom to be fully expressive, and not have to worry about freezing those expression because your face returns to a state of total relaxation.

If movement was as bad as you fear it is, then people who suffer paralysis of the face would never have sag or show signs of aging. But they do. Muscles atrophy and end up responding to the call of gravity.

Anyway, like I said, if topicals work for you, then by all means use them. Sometimes we screw up when we change something that was working. I have had to learn not to fix stuff that isn't broken the hard way. But if you ever find yourself in need of more than topicals can offer, do not discount face exercises based on SOME of what you've heard about them. Ask people who do them why they do them. There are scientific articles written on them that explain how and why they do work. And there are people like me who can tell you that after more than 20 years of face exercises, there isn't any topical product that I believe can do what they can do. Nor surgery that can give the natural results that I have witnessed in others who do them and experienced in my own journey with them.

Indeed the proof is really in the pudding: you believe in topicals because you've seen them work for you. You are distrusting of face exercises because you have seen effects you don't like, plus you have no need for them because you have something that works. Not to mention all the scare stories we've heard about stretching our skin. And that's how it should be. You should not have to change a regimen that works for you. But I'm happy to tell anyone who's interested, that face exercises are just as good as any of the other methods mentioned here. So no one should be afraid to look into them if something they've tried doesn't work.
packratmack
Preferred Member
15% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 04 Jul 2009
Posts: 569
Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:59 am      Reply with quote
RussianSunshine wrote:


Secondly, I know those women personally, and what I have observed about them is that both of them rarely show emotions or facial expressions.


I made an emotional facial expression just because I read this. It seems kind of sad.

But, I agree with you on one point. Facial exercises are not for everyone.
rileygirl
VIP Member
20% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 9519
Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:19 am      Reply with quote
Lucia wrote:

As for topicals for firming effects look for ingredients such as DMAE, which can firm and tighten skin, Alpha Lipoic Acid works to give a glow (and as a potent antioxidant will help prevent further damage) Matrixyl helps collagen synthesis which will improve overall skin condition and plumpness longer term.
Other ingredients I like over all are Vitamin C, peptides and hyaluronic acid.
AHA's and BHA's can be useful but you do need to introduce gradually and wear a photo stable sunscreen (ditto retinoids. The tricky part is finding which active actually works for you, one topical will work better for you than others. (My skin hates Copper Peptides for example).

(Apologies for any spelling errors - I am trying to type around my cat! Laughing )


Thanks, Lucia! I like the topicals you mentioned. My only issue is the DMAE, which I am hesitant on using daily. Do you use this daily or just occasionally and do you have any thoughts on its safety? Totally agree on finding the actives that work for ones own skin.
(You type very well working around your cat! Very Happy)
rileygirl
VIP Member
20% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 9519
Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:22 am      Reply with quote
packratmack wrote:


You really need to see a picture of Loli at the Flex Effect Forums. The woman is in her fifties and she looks amazing. I don't need quality photos to be convinced of her success.


Loli is/was known as Gidget II)on the EDS forum. She posted a few pictures here. She does look amazing, but I wonder how much of her healthy lifestyle contributes to her good looks?
Lucia
VIP Member
20% products discount
free skin care

View user's profileSend private message
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 1003
Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:01 am      Reply with quote
Hi Riley Girl,
You are right there has been some controversy surrounding DMAE but most of it is with regards to oral treatment (where when taken in high doses it has been shown to accumulate in the liver in some people).

There has been one study that used the highly alkaline version of DMAE in an extremely high concentration on cell cultures and a rabbit ear. To cut a long story short, it showed the potential for cell damage/early cell death from the application of DMAE. However how relevant this study was remains to be seen. DMAE used in cosmetic products is pH balanced in the amine form and usually between 1% to 3% on average. so bears little resemblance to the form used in the study. Additionally rabbit ear tissue is apparently more sensitive than human skin tissue. (I don't know much about rabbit skin though so cannot confirm this!)
Bear in mind that DMAE has been used in skincare for over a decade if it were to cause skin damage I'd like to think we would have heard more about it and there would have been more than a single, possibly flawed study. It is also worth noting that LOTS of things can cause cell death when tested under similar circumstances (Vitamin C being one).
Most topicals that show results increase cell turnover - which is early cell death and replacement. This is only of concern if you buy in to the Hayflick limit. Personally I don't - the limit again was only shown in cell cultures.

If you are concerned then the general advice is to use a lower concentration of DMAE (like 1%) and see how you go as the effects are cumulative and do not immediately disappear when you stop using it.

If you research retinols, Vitamin C copper peptides, aha's, bha's and even seemingly safe ingredients such as plant oils - you will find a study or claim some where that shows it is 'bad' for you under certain circumstances.

I personally have no problem using DMAE I just monitor my skin - irritation/inflammation is a red flag - if that's happening you need to take a look at what you are doing and adjust things.

I'm not a doctor or a scientist but I have taken a huge interest in ingredients in skincare (beauty therapy is no longer my 'dayjob' as I got extremely disheartened with the results - or lack of - that most salon brands delivered).

I like to use a lot of natural skincare too but sometimes that too can be irritating and potentially damaging.

I still keep 'my hand in' with friends and family - and 'hangers on! Laughing

I also am happy to adjust my views as I learn more. Nothing is written in stone. Smile

Sorry turned into an essay! Embarassed

_________________
Lucia, VERY fair (ghostly so!)redhead, combination skin prone to dehydration.
System
Automatic Message
Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:37 pm
If this is your first visit to the EDS Forums please take the time to register. Registration is required for you to post on the forums. Registration will also give you the ability to track messages of interest, send private messages to other users, participate in Gift Certificates draws and enjoy automatic discounts for shopping at our online store. Registration is free and takes just a few seconds to complete.

Click Here to join our community.

If you are already a registered member on the forums, please login to gain full access to the site.

Reply to topic



Weleda Plant Gel Toothpaste (75 ml / 2.5 floz) glominerals Majestic Jungle Collection (4 items) Juice Beauty Blemish Clearing Mask (50 ml /  1.7 floz)