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Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:06 am  |
| packratmack wrote: |
| I ordered from the website Toby posted. The postage was $12.40 to the US. I saved over $25.00 and it is the same size that Tonya is selling. |
Tonya's products always seem to be overpriced. Her HF Wand is much more expensive than any of the other comparable models.
Sigma - how much was your ebay one? |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:06 pm |
| Hi sigma - Isn't her HF the Palacia model? What do you like about the cream? I do not use a moisturizer but this is the sort of thing I would use over top of my two daily favorites. I like Tonya's devotion to promoting healthy good things and I also enjoy many of her facial exercises. |
_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:00 am |
I happen to like Tonya's merchandise - her High Frequency is much much better then any other lower priced models that I had tried ( I have 3 others at the moment and none of them work quite as well); the caveat is that it did not last. Hopefully, the company will be able to fix it. Her cream imho is a steal at $26.00 per jar, and is lovely. I basically use Dr. Alkaitis and ARCS oil or Tonya's cream. My skin and wallet both love these (esp. if compared to La Prairie or Cle de Peau, that I used to use many years ago with no success).
Tonya's HF machine are made by "Paragon Garfield" and are true professional machines. However, as I recently learned most professional equipment manufacturers stopped making hand-held units (I would guess due to inability to complete with cheaper alternatives made in Asia); same is true for Paragon. Their hand-held units are not made here and do not adhere to the same rigorous standards as German/Spain or high-end China made ones do, and as a result there is a big variation from one unit to the other.
In the past some better brands (Sorisa and others), that were actually making medical equipment were also making these units but at a much higher price (better components, better QA, etc.).
I got 2 Paragon units - one for myself (worked beautifully but broke shortly after a year plus) and one for my mom - does work but not nearly as good as mine. I am dealing with the manufacturer to get them fixed.
I tried several other units:
a).UC3500 - which I believe is what Palacia sells - it is a lovely toy, but not nearly powerful enough - I had returned it, but again it could be just the unit I got
b). the one from ebay - for $35.00, makes the noise, makes the light, does not anything for the skin
c). the one from Amazon - by New Spa, around $156, kind of works, but not effective
All of them are claimed to be professional ones and neither so far had delivered. At that point I will either get the ones from Paragon fixed, or get a high end truly professional units.
Re: Tonya's cream - it is a light but quite a nice moisturizer. Excellent ingredients, very calming, healing; has tons of antioxidants; may not be enough for especially dry skin. My mom uses it over oil. I always have it in hand.
My 1st choice is Dr. Alkaitis, but Tonya's is my 2nd out of everything I had tried so far.
HTH |
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Early 50s, Skin: combin.,semi-sensitive, fair with occasional breakouts, some old acne scars, freckles, under-eye wrinkles; Redhead with hazel eyes |
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:58 am |
| sigma wrote: |
a).UC3500 - which I believe is what Palacia sells - it is a lovely toy, but not nearly powerful enough - I had returned it, but again it could be just the unit I got
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I have to respond to this comment.
The only logical way to compare high frequency units is by looking at their power output - namely, the rate of hertz per second the unit cycles at. The Palacia and Jellen devices are identical but Palacia sells it cheaper. This unit cyles at 200,000 hertz per sec. Palacia now have a larger device for sale which oscillates at 220,000 hertz/sec but it is priced at over $500.00. All of the Ebay units that I enquired about cycle at 100,000 hertz/sec. The DermaWand cycles at 114,000 hertz/sec.
Tony has the Violet Ray for sale again:
http://www.beautifulonraw.com/Holistic_Device_Violet_Ray.html but I can't find information on the power output.
I do think it's misleading, however, to refer to the Palacia device as a "toy". The unit is extremely well built and I've been using mine for over a year without any problems. At the time I purchased it, it was the most powerful device on the market that I could find. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:58 am |
The Palacia unit I have appears to be powerful (zapping away!). I can't imagine what something better is. Sigma can you explain what you have noticed skin-wise with the Paragon that you felt might not be happening with the Palacia?
For the record - I really trust Tonya to choose a good product so I'm sure there's something to the Paragon Garfield model. |
_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:08 am |
| sister sweets wrote: |
The Palacia unit I have appears to be powerful (zapping away!). I can't imagine what something better is. Sigma can you explain what you have noticed skin-wise with the Paragon that you felt might not be happening with the Palacia?
For the record - I really trust Tonya to choose a good product so I'm sure there's something to the Paragon Garfield model. |
The HF device Tonya is now selling is manufactured in Guangzhou, China. It's listed on Alibaba.com http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/458199939/protable_high_frequency_skin_care_device.html Unfortunately, I can't find the oscillation rate anywhere. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:37 am |
Do these guys ship to Australia? I had a look at the site but didn't see anywhere you can order this? |
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I'm 49, fair skin, green eyes, blonde hair, dry slightly sensitive skin, I have very few wrinkles, slight pigmentation, main worry is sagging..yuck!! Currently using CP |
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:36 am |
I only have a few minutes to respond - the issues with HF machines are a bit more complicated, and that wonderful marketing ploy that Keliu had mentioned is just that - a ploy.
One can read about D'Arsonval or Rife machines to learn more about holistic aspects as well as cosmetic ones of frequency machines.
The hand held unit that Tonya used to sell definitely provided both, but did not last.
The UC3500 one - provided nothing. As I explained before - for handheld units it varies from one unit to the other widely, and is entirely possible that several out of a pack would preform very well, and several would not. The one I tried did not perform for me; there is also a review on Amazon from a professional cosmetologist that it was not coming near to a performance of a professional one; but many laymen liked it. I choose to return mine.
"Zapping" is not an indicator either - the one from ebay "zapps" the most - but does not deliver anything.
When my machine worked - it would mean if once a month I would get a deep painful bump on my chin - it would come to the surface the next day and be gone the next without burning my skin; that the creams would penetrate noticeably better; that it would be very painful to use it in the area where I have small nerve inflammation around my eye (healing based on frequencies), etc.
None of the other machines did that, despite excellent zapping/lighting/buzzing - the occasional pimple stays deep, the skin around it is burned, the cream does not get in; does not react to inflamed nerve, etc.
It is not a scientific research, I just listed my experience but it is good enough for me. To do a proper measurements one would need to take a unit apart and have special instruments; and while I can get it done I really have no desire to do it.
The stationary unit on Tonya's site is still a Garfield Paragon (model 203). I am not sure if it still of good quality, it used to be made here and had better guarantee. Her new handheld one I am unfamiliar with, but it is not the ones she used to have. When I was shopping for a handheld one Tonya's price was average or insignificantly over the average for the market for that particular unit.
The better models are made by Sorisa and similar companies that specialize in true professional/medical equipment and normally do not sell to the general public.
HTH |
_________________
Early 50s, Skin: combin.,semi-sensitive, fair with occasional breakouts, some old acne scars, freckles, under-eye wrinkles; Redhead with hazel eyes |
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:59 pm |
Sigma - all electrical appliances are manufactured to certain specifications. I don't know how this can be considered a "marketing ploy". The electrical output of any device is a quantifiable and measurable figure. It is how we measure the power of all devices whether they be hair dryers or vacuum cleaners. However, the electrical output of skincare gadgets is particularly important because they effect our skin. Are we to presume that the specifications for ultrasounds, LEDs or radio frequency devices etc. are just marketing ploys. No, that information is important in enabling us to make decisions on the effectiveness and safety of the device.
This is from the Jellen website:
Sigma wrote:
| Quote: |
| It is not a scientific research, I just listed my experience but it is good enough for me. To do a proper measurements one would need to take a unit apart and have special instruments; and while I can get it done I really have no desire to do it. |
Testing the "zapping" of the machines on the skin is definitely subjective. But there should be no need to take a unit apart and have special instruments to do proper measurements as you state. It is the manufacturers responsibility to disclose this information - which reliable manufacturers do.
There is also no point in recommending professional equipment which is not available for purchase by the general public. We all know that salons are privy to much more sophisticated machinery than is available to the ordinary consumer.
It is evident that the unit Tonya is currently selling is manufactured in China - it says so on the box in the picture. The unit looks absolutely identical to the unit which is manufactured by Inkue and is listed for sale on other sites for $43.00. However, without the technical specifications for both devices we can't really make a comparison. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:16 pm |
No, Keliu - the information and premise that you site are not quite correct. The same way that it is not enough to know just the frequency for the ultrasound device (1Mhz, 2 or ..), but several other characteristics to correctly judge it's effectiveness and safety.
If you are truly interested - please, do some reading about frequency devices, the information from the seller' site is not the most objective nor necessarily accurate; neither can the manufacturers be always trusted with their numbers.
In terms of measurements - my source has a Ph.D. and is a Bio-Medical engineer, so ..
Another thing - you can try to compare your model with the ones in a professional salons, and see if you get the same results. If you do - fantastic; and if you do not - then you can choose to pursue it further.
My observations were not scientific as I had explicitly stated, but based on comparison of 3 different models, all of which claim to be professional models with excellent characteristics.
I have no desire to prove a point, praise or discourage any-one's toy. I was asked a specific question and had tried to answer it according to my experience.
HTH |
_________________
Early 50s, Skin: combin.,semi-sensitive, fair with occasional breakouts, some old acne scars, freckles, under-eye wrinkles; Redhead with hazel eyes |
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:36 pm |
Sigma, if your source is a bio-medical engineer it would really help if you could share with us what factors go to make an effective high frequency device.
I have done a ton of reading on these devices - as you probably know by now the HF device is my "pet" gadget. But in no way am I an expert on them and have never pretended to be one. I can only go by what I have read and the information that I have consistently come across is that the oscillation rate of the device is the most important factor. If this is incorrect, then what are the critical factors to look for when purchasing one?
I have never claimed that my unit is comparable to any professional salon device. As I said in my earlier post, salon equipment is usually far more sophisticated than home use machines. I own a home use IPL machine and wouldn't dream of comparing that to one in a salon. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:52 pm |
Interesting discussion.. I never considered my Palacia HF Device a "toy". Or my Safetox; LightStim; and Tripollar Stop. Oh well, at least I'm having fun playing.  Sorry, I almost forgot this was a thread about the Bed of Pins. I bought one of those too! |
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:20 pm |
| I also meant to say that manufacturers are required by law to give the correct information on electrical devices otherwise they would leave themselves open to legal action. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:10 pm |
Going off-topic yet again: but I think this demonstrates how it's always a case of "buyer beware" when it comes to shopping around for skin gadgets.
I was having a look at the Paragon Garfield website which sells professional skin care equipment for salons to see if I could find the HF device that Sigma recommended. I couldn't find it but did come and across this microcurrent device - Paragon Pro-Galvanic (HH-03) priced at $132.00 http://www.purespadirect.com/Paragon-Pro-Galvanic-HH-03-p/gj-880520.htm. Now I happen to have this device - I purchased it on Ebay from a Chinese seller for $70.00.
I can only reiterate that when purchasing any skin care device it pays to do lots of research and pay attention to the manufacturers specifications. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:11 am |
Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with products manufactured in China as such - everything in the world is manufactured in China these days and they definitely have a monopoly on the beauty device market. However, it is annoying when sellers are buying cheap products from China and putting a huge mark-up on them.
Back to Tonya's HF device. If I were going to purchase this - I would want to know what its point of difference was from all the other Chinese HF devices available on Ebay which are for sale at around the $50.00 mark.
For example: This is the HF Wand listed on Page 8 of the site that Summer gave us the link to. It comes with a full set of electrodes and is priced at $47.42.
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/206043/0-453954912/KD-8050-professional-high-frequency-kit-with-7-electrodes.html |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:48 am |
I've been away from EDS for a few weeks, but I just wanted to chime in on this discussion...
I would think that the primary factors in picking an effective "high-frequency device" would be:
(1) The frequency / oscillations per second. This number is given in terms of Hertz (Hz). The more Hertz, the faster the oscillation rate. (The units are just Hz, not Hz/sec.) The thing that you are causing to oscillate is the current in the device, which in terms causes a "jiggling" of the electrons and other charged particles in your tissues. The higher the frequency, the faster those charged particles in your cells jiggle. They may be other physiological effects due to something called resonance (just like "resonance" of LEDs with certain biological compounds within the cell promotes healing and related cellular processes).... But I am not knowledgeable in this area, so cannot comment.
(2) The power output (or, if you wanted to be more picky, the intensity). I would assume that this number is given in terms of milliWatts (mW) (or mW/cm^2, if you want the intensity). A higher frequency means nothing if the power is low. In other words, you can view "frequency" as a measure of "how fast" and power as a measure of "how much (or how little)". A high frequency doesn't mean much if you are only delivering a little of it.
So in other words, at a bare minimum, a comparison of two high-frequency devices should include at least the frequency AND the power.
Then, there are probably secondary measures, such as how large of a surface area on the face can be treated at a time, etc.
Finally, FWIW, I'm skeptical that the difference between 200,000 Hz and 220,000 Hz (10% difference) would justify a huge boost in the price tag....unless the power output (in Watts) for the 220,000 Hz device is much more.
HTH |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:51 pm |
CM - thanks for your informative post (as usual  ).
I'm a little confused about how to figure out the power output though. Here are the specs for the two Palacia devices:
HF-1000
Supply voltage: 230 V (110V on request)
Oscillation Rate: 220.000 Hz
Input: 25 W
Weight: 1,1 Kg
Dimensions: 80,5 x 330,5 x 260,5 mm
HC-3500
Oscillation Rate Over 200,000 Hertz - rate/sec. (this number determines the power of the machine)
Wattage 3W / 2.5W
Ampere 0.65A
Voltage 110V - 120V / 60Hz adaptor
Machine Size 8.5" (H) x 2.0"(W)
We can see that the Oscillation Rate is similar (and, I agree, negligable). But what does the Input of 25w mean? Are we supposed to compare that with the Wattage of 3w/2.5w on the HC-3500 - or are these different things? And shouldn't we be looking for Output instead of Input? |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:33 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
CM - thanks for your informative post (as usual ).
I'm a little confused about how to figure out the power output though. Here are the specs for the two Palacia devices:
HF-1000
Supply voltage: 230 V (110V on request)
Oscillation Rate: 220.000 Hz
Input: 25 W
Weight: 1,1 Kg
Dimensions: 80,5 x 330,5 x 260,5 mm
HC-3500
Oscillation Rate Over 200,000 Hertz - rate/sec. (this number determines the power of the machine)
Wattage 3W / 2.5W
Ampere 0.65A
Voltage 110V - 120V / 60Hz adaptor
Machine Size 8.5" (H) x 2.0"(W)
We can see that the Oscillation Rate is similar (and, I agree, negligable). But what does the Input of 25w mean? Are we supposed to compare that with the Wattage of 3w/2.5w on the HC-3500 - or are these different things? And shouldn't we be looking for Output instead of Input? |
You would think that "input" was referring to how much power is supplied to the device, but it would be worth asking the manufacturer about this. For the second device, it's possible that the wattage listed is output power, but again, you'd want to ask the manufacturer. Interestingly, for the second device, the current (the number after "Amperes") is listed. If this is the current that is oscillating in the device, that you can also figure out (with some math) effectively how much power is given off.
In terms of the statement "Hertz rate/sec. (this number determines the power of the machine)", the choice of the word "power" here is either incorrect (in the technical sense of the word) or the author is simply claiming that the higher frequency device is better.
It would be worth contacting the manufacturer to ask these questions. |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:37 pm |
Amendment to the above:
I noticed here
http://www.palaciaskincare.com/PROFESSIONAL_GRADE_PORTABLE_HIGH_FREQUENCY_MACHINE.html
that it says "With its adjustable intensity setting and 3 electrodes". As mentioned above, you want to know the power, or if you're more picky, the intensity (which in this case, would be power per unit area of your face).
That's nice that you can adjust the intensity. And that means if we can figure out what those intensity settings are on both devices (in terms of actual numbers), then we can do an even better comparison. Do they give these numbers in the instruction book?
If not, and you have to contact the manufacturer, it's probably best to ask about the "intensity of the device on the skin" (rather than the "power"), since that will be less confusing. You want a number probably in something like milliWatts per centimeter squared. |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:54 pm |
Here are some stats for the Edgar Cayce Violet Ray. Notice that it oscillates at 500,000 hertz. I also read somewhere that there are devices which oscillates at 1 million hertz per second. This particular device sells for around $700.00.
| Quote: |
The Violet Ray appliance was recommended in over 800 readings for a wide variety of problems to stimulate the nervous and circulatory systems. It was widely used during the first half of the 20th century. It is essentially an ultra-high voltage, low amperage source of static electricity with a voltage output that ranges between 10,000 and 50,000 volts, and a frequency of 0.5 mhz (or 500,000 hertz), i.e. half a million cycles per second. At the heart of the Violet Ray is the Tesla coil, named for Nicola Tesla (1856-1943), the famous electrical engineer, scientist, inventor and discoverer.
http://www.edgarcayceproducts.com/devices.html |
The oscillation rate seems to be the most discussed aspect of these devices.
Incidentally, all the wand devices have a control knob for intensity which just turns smoothly - there are no definitive click settings. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:28 am |
Hi Keliu et al.,
Even though the intensity settings are variable and the settings vary smoothly, I'd still want to know what the intensity range is before I'd choose to buy one device over the other.
That's interesting that there is so much discussion about the oscillation rate (how fast), but so little discussion about the intensity (how much)...I find that peculiar.
So what I am getting at is that I think it is worth the effort of getting this information from the manufacturers so that you can actually make an apples to apples comparison. HTH |
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34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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