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Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:09 am  |
I read this post a while ago on one of my favorite blogs (Rosina, if you are out there, please come back!) and I went to search for it again last night.
I did a series of three TCA peels last year and loved them.
I did another last month after using Retin A for 6 weeks prior.
The time in between I used lactic acid daily.
Anyways, I've really been stressing over my face lately as my naso-labial folds are getting out of hand... even other people have commented. And I took a good look and realized, while my skin looks great, my face doesn't. I guess lax, droopy. And I remembered this post and went and looked it up.
I do think there is truth to it... yet every MD will tell you, and the research obviously backs it up, that RetinA should be the cornerstone of any anti-aging program. And I understand how an intact epidermis could prevent laxity in the underlying dermal layers, but at the same time, RetinA (and TCA, etc) is supposed to stimulate collagen production.
I'm wondering if I need to revamp my routine. Maybe exfoliate with Retin A and peels in the fall and winter when the sun is softer anyways, and let my epidermis regenerate in the spring and summer?
Does anyone else have any thoughts or experiences along these lines. I searched and searched for a thread but couldn't find one. |
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:02 am |
Exfoliation by any method may stimulate collagen production and increase cell turnover, but it will only improve skin health IF you allow the time for the skin to regenerate between sessions. If you don't you are simply injuring your skin repeatedly: over-exfoliation is highly stressful to the skin.
Retin-A is not the holy grail of skincare for everyone, the research is absolutely there but many dry or sensitive types find even low percentages too harsh. It may be fine for you ... just not alongside daily lactic acid AND regular TCA peels. Our skin needs just as much protection in the winter, as it is subjected to sudden changes of temperature, icy north winds, central heating and lower humidity whilst still fending off bacteria, pollution and UV rays. IMO it would make more sense to scale down the aggressive treatments all year round.  |
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Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:38 am |
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
Exfoliation by any method may stimulate collagen production and increase cell turnover, but it will only improve skin health IF you allow the time for the skin to regenerate between sessions. If you don't you are simply injuring your skin repeatedly: over-exfoliation is highly stressful to the skin.
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Now, this makes perfect sense to me!
I don't have sensitive skin and really do love how my skin looks on the RetinA, lactic, and TCA...
I think I just overdid it...
So what would you recommend as a exfoliation routine? |
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:59 am |
| In my opinion, exfoliations should be combined with ingredients that increase collagen and elastin production, as well as repair skin barrier, for example, peptides. |
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:05 am |
Too much of anything can damage most skin. I damaged a couple of areas on my face many years ago from a strong hydroxy acid and only in the past couple of years has it turned around and show signs of repairing.
I've used copper peptides to do that repair, but there are a few other anti-oxidants that might also help in that repect. Vitamin C is one of them.
With CPs, you use them to rebuild the skin after using acids like the ones you've used to break down the bad skin. CPs are great for this.
You can read about the science behind them here
http://www.reverseskinaging.com/ |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:47 am |
Actually, I do use CP's 
I had posted on the CP thread about wondering if I was finally getting the "uglies" and that it seemed odd to me after 4 years of successful use...
Now I wonder if its that I overdid the exfoliation and CP's just couldn't help repair and remodel fast enough. |
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:52 am |
| UmEnis wrote: |
Now, this makes perfect sense to me!
I don't have sensitive skin and really do love how my skin looks on the RetinA, lactic, and TCA...
I think I just overdid it...
So what would you recommend as a exfoliation routine? |
My personal approach to exfoliation is conservative, because I do have sensitive skin! For daily (very light) exfoliation I use a muslin cloth with my cleanser which leaves the skin surface silky soft. I then 'spot treat' with light lactic acid peels no more than once a week because these don't dry my skin. If I was engaged in deeper peels such as TCA I would stop using lactic acid.
Whenever I have had a negative effect I halt ALL exfoliation, treating my skin with kid gloves until the glow has returned. That means using products with proven repairing, anti-inflammatory or anti-ageing properties - for example organic aloe gel, calendula cream, unrefined shea butter, rosehip seed oil, hyaluronic acid serum. But that is me; some of the more experienced posters may be able to advise how best to recover from aggressive acid peels alongside Retin-A.
HTH!  |
_________________
Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:49 am |
Yes when you said you did a TCA after all that Retin A, I cringed...then add to the top of that all the lactic...
Be patient with your skin grasshopper  |
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:04 am |
| UmEnis wrote: |
I did a series of three TCA peels last year and loved them.
I did another last month after using Retin A for 6 weeks prior.
The time in between I used lactic acid daily.
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What products did you use After your TCA peels?
I agree with the other ladies, anything in excess can cause problems for one's skin, and it sounds like you are over-exfoliating and doing nothing to repair your skin barrier. |
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:48 am |
| I'll chime in and say..I think you have the uglies. Sounds like you've been too aggresive with everything. I'd stop daily exfoliation with acids ...and with cp's? I'd take four days off..then resume your routine and take the weekends off all the time. That's what I do now..and the improvement is noticable. That way you can squeeze in other products on your off days and benefit that wayt too. |
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:57 am |
| rileygirl wrote: |
What products did you use After your TCA peels?
I agree with the other ladies, anything in excess can cause problems for one's skin, and it sounds like you are over-exfoliating and doing nothing to repair your skin barrier. |
I didn't use everything at once! 
What I've done for the past year was this. From July 2010 until april of this year I used a 10% lactic solution daily followed by super CP serum and topped with jojoba oil(I used to use Retin A but stopped because I was pregnant); in the AM's I use a homemade C solution followed by an antioxident heavy sunscreen (skin bio's daily cover) if I'm staying in and a heavy duty sunscreen if I'm going out. I did a TCA peel in April and another in May. I stopped the lactic acid from the first peel until the end of June, using only the CP and oil. In June I began retin A (.05%) every other day and alternated it with with the lactic. Then I did a peel in October (about two weeks ago). I haven't started any daily exfoliation back up.
Pretty much what I've been doing is "textbook" as far as what any MD would recommend. And, like I said, my skin looks very nice... its my face that looks lax if that makes any sense. Like the skin is all fresh and pretty new skin, but the underlying support structure has been compromised by not having the epidermis to provide extra support (if ya'll didn;t have a chance to read it, the link was concerned more about support issues than environmental exposure, which is normally what we think of as being an issue with over exfoliation)
I actually don't have sensitive skin and do absolutely great with acids...
All my crepeyness has subsided a lot... and I got laxity in its place!
I've seen two schools of thought regarding non-textbook exfoliation routines: One, like firefox is to do it regularly, once or twice a week but fairly lightly. Another is to do it once or twice a year but very heavily, to really get that "controlled damage" that will spur collagen regeneration...
I'm wondering which of the two to do?
And the funny thing is, I have absolutely no sensitivity at all, even just two weeks after what was basically an 18% peel. I can use the lactic acid with no stinging (i tried it once). No stinging with my homemade c serum.... |
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:26 pm |
| UmEnis wrote: |
I didn't use everything at once!
What I've done for the past year was this. From July 2010 until april of this year I used a 10% lactic solution daily followed by super CP serum and topped with jojoba oil(I used to use Retin A but stopped because I was pregnant); in the AM's I use a homemade C solution followed by an antioxident heavy sunscreen (skin bio's daily cover) if I'm staying in and a heavy duty sunscreen if I'm going out. I did a TCA peel in April and another in May. I stopped the lactic acid from the first peel until the end of June, using only the CP and oil. In June I began retin A (.05%) every other day and alternated it with with the lactic. Then I did a peel in October (about two weeks ago). I haven't started any daily exfoliation back up.
Pretty much what I've been doing is "textbook" as far as what any MD would recommend. And, like I said, my skin looks very nice... its my face that looks lax if that makes any sense. |
OK, understand! I thought you were using all the acids at the same time. After reading your routine, it sounds like you really did everything "right". So, your skin looks good, but you have now have some sagging? Am I understanding that correctly? (If I got that right, I am wondering if it isn't the "uglies" from the CP's, as you mentioned above. Have you tried the Skinbiology forum to see what Dr. Pickart thinks?) |
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:25 pm |
| UmEnis wrote: |
Pretty much what I've been doing is "textbook" as far as what any MD would recommend. And, like I said, my skin looks very nice... |
UmEnis, what is exactly this "textbook" routine? Strong peel every 2 months? |
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:24 pm |
| UmEnis wrote: |
I didn't use everything at once!
What I've done for the past year was this. From July 2010 until april of this year I used a 10% lactic solution daily followed by super CP serum and topped with jojoba oil(I used to use Retin A but stopped because I was pregnant); in the AM's I use a homemade C solution followed by an antioxident heavy sunscreen (skin bio's daily cover) if I'm staying in and a heavy duty sunscreen if I'm going out. I did a TCA peel in April and another in May. I stopped the lactic acid from the first peel until the end of June, using only the CP and oil. In June I began retin A (.05%) every other day and alternated it with with the lactic. Then I did a peel in October (about two weeks ago). I haven't started any daily exfoliation back up.
Pretty much what I've been doing is "textbook" as far as what any MD would recommend. And, like I said, my skin looks very nice... its my face that looks lax if that makes any sense. Like the skin is all fresh and pretty new skin, but the underlying support structure has been compromised by not having the epidermis to provide extra support (if ya'll didn;t have a chance to read it, the link was concerned more about support issues than environmental exposure, which is normally what we think of as being an issue with over exfoliation)
I actually don't have sensitive skin and do absolutely great with acids...
All my crepeyness has subsided a lot... and I got laxity in its place!
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Vitamin C serums can also dry and exfoliate the skin. Sooooo ... the routine is not quite as aggressive as it sounded, but it still seems fairly aggressive given your age (estimated from PG). Do you definitely need the deeper peels at this stage? I also note that your routine has a lot of protection - antioxidants, sunscreens, which is fab - but doesn't particularly promote rebuilding.
The pregnancy jumped out at me too, leaving me wondering if other factors might be playing a role? Have you gained or lost a significant amount of bodyfat? Perhaps pre- and/ or post-natally your skin or muscles weren't get sufficient nutrients to fully repair, your sleep patterns are disturbed, you are more time pressed, you aren't getting to the gym as much? Any one of these can place the body into a state of stress, which is inflammatory and not great for collagen production. I work in lifestyle healthcare, and see many family women who struggle to find time to prioritise their own wellbeing.  |
_________________
Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:00 am |
| RussianSunshine wrote: |
UmEnis, what is exactly this "textbook" routine? Strong peel every 2 months? |
Actually, to most MD's 12.5% TCA for 4 layers (=18%) at the PH I used is considered a light to medium peel. And most Dermatologists will recommend a series of 3 peels for fine lines with a booster peel every 6 months or so. I'm not saying its right, which is why I started this thread, I'm just saying its a really (if not the most) common MD recommendation
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
| Any of of these can place the body into a state of stress, which is inflammatory and not great for collagen production. I work in lifestyle healthcare, and see many family women who struggle to find time to prioritise their own wellbeing |
What a fascinating field! I really think all healthcare should be lifestyle healthcare, but this is not the right thread to get on my soapbox 
Well, though I'm still young, I'm probably not as young as you may think... I'm almost 40 (I have fine lines from the loooooong hours I spent in the South Florida). And the nutrition issues are not significant nor is the sleep or exercise as I get enough of both. The weight gain and loss may be more of an issue. But still, I eat well and healthily when I'm pregnant and lose the weight at a good rate. But I have been mentally stressed lately... actually the past two years for issues with extended family. And when we moved two years ago we lived in a family members house while our house was running overtime on getting finished. And I did NOT eat or sleep well those six months and did indeed run my body into a state of exhaustion. So, now I wonder if this is cumulative damage left over from that.... |
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Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:49 am |
I used dermalogica daily exfoliate, even though it can be used everyday, but I still feel my skin is not as strong as before, and its more sensitive now, very eazily to get red. and the skin is thinner. So I think we'd better don't get over exfliated,  |
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Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:13 am |
Stress, especially family stress, not eating or sleeping well will definitely cause laxity issues - been there done that and I looked absolutely haggard! lol This takes a while to correct - I recall when I went through this my skin texture was good as I have always used good products but you could really see the stress on my face. This was all in the 2-3 years after my daughter was born too, so it's not like my body already had enough to deal with!
| UmEnis wrote: |
What a fascinating field! I really think all healthcare should be lifestyle healthcare, but this is not the right thread to get on my soapbox
Well, though I'm still young, I'm probably not as young as you may think... I'm almost 40 (I have fine lines from the loooooong hours I spent in the South Florida). And the nutrition issues are not significant nor is the sleep or exercise as I get enough of both. The weight gain and loss may be more of an issue. But still, I eat well and healthily when I'm pregnant and lose the weight at a good rate. But I have been mentally stressed lately... actually the past two years for issues with extended family. And when we moved two years ago we lived in a family members house while our house was running overtime on getting finished. And I did NOT eat or sleep well those six months and did indeed run my body into a state of exhaustion. So, now I wonder if this is cumulative damage left over from that.... |
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Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:50 am |
| UmEnis wrote: |
What a fascinating field! I really think all healthcare should be lifestyle healthcare, but this is not the right thread to get on my soapbox
Well, though I'm still young, I'm probably not as young as you may think... I'm almost 40 (I have fine lines from the loooooong hours I spent in the South Florida). And the nutrition issues are not significant nor is the sleep or exercise as I get enough of both. The weight gain and loss may be more of an issue. But still, I eat well and healthily when I'm pregnant and lose the weight at a good rate. But I have been mentally stressed lately... actually the past two years for issues with extended family. And when we moved two years ago we lived in a family members house while our house was running overtime on getting finished. And I did NOT eat or sleep well those six months and did indeed run my body into a state of exhaustion. So, now I wonder if this is cumulative damage left over from that.... |
You are actually right about the age I expected and no older than I am! Sorry to hear you have been through a tough time tho.  That could very well be the issue, perhaps alongside the topical stress of the peels? Not sure if you are aware but emotional stress, dieting and regular exercise all substantially increase the body's nutrient requirements. It may therefore be worth tweaking your current diet focussing on nutrients that are key to tissue repair, reducing inflammation and for mental wellbeing. Small portions of complete protein every four hours, long chain omega-3s (oily fish/ marine algae daily), all minerals particularly calcium and magnesium (nuts/ seeds/ pulses/ dairy), antioxidant phytonutrients (nine portions of fruit and veg daily). Apologies if you already know all this, but hopefully it will benefit someone else! |
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Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:15 am |
I do, actually know all that... but I am still glad you posted it i think my biggest issues are emotional stresses. i really do believe that how we handle stress emotionally effects our health and in turn our skin. we can't always control the situations that we are in, but we can control how we respond and feel...so it was a good reminder for me. i took a good look at these nl lines and actually asked myself about a week ago, now what are these lines trying to teach me. sigh.
You are actually right about the age I expected and no older than I am! Sorry to hear you have been through a tough time tho. That could very well be the issue, perhaps alongside the topical stress of the peels? Not sure if you are aware but emotional stress, dieting and regular exercise all substantially increase the body's nutrient requirements. It may therefore be worth tweaking your current diet focussing on nutrients that are key to tissue repair, reducing inflammation and for mental wellbeing. Small portions of complete protein every four hours, long chain omega-3s (oily fish/ marine algae daily), all minerals particularly calcium and magnesium (nuts/ seeds/ pulses/ dairy), antioxidant phytonutrients (nine portions of fruit and veg daily). Apologies if you already know all this, but hopefully it will benefit someone else! [/quote] |
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