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Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:05 am  |
flick24 your belief that repeated facial expressions can cause permanent lines isn't farfetched. It is true, especially as we age and lose elasticity and collagen in our skin. I mean, when we make facial expressions like smiling or frowning, we do, in a way, exercise certain muscles of the face, and hence laugh lines and frown lines form from this respectively. Which would lead one to rationally conclude that any exercising of face muscles will lead to wrinkles since we do it all the time and wrinkles still occur. The creases we make become almost ironed in and add to the wrinkles we get from other effects like UV rays and gravity's pull that causes sag. For a lot of people, the only way to stop this from happening is to get Botox and stop all movement of the face. No movement means no creasing which means smooth skin, right? But paralysis by Botox also means loss of facial expression and muscle atrophy because if you don't use them (muscles) you lose them. And whenever the Botox wears out, the state of the skin is usually worse than before because those muscles have had no exercise and gravity didn't take a break from pulling on them.
Sounds like a lost cause, either way, doesn't it? I mean, you exercise your face by making expressions and being normal, you get wrinkles. You don't move your face, you appear dead and still get wrinkles, not to mention how expensive this second method is in the long run.
So what's one to do besides going under the knife? Enter the world of face exercises. What makes a good face exercise program different and defiant of the rule that "exercising the face will cause more lines" is that it is designed so as to engage muscles of the face that we rarely use and exercise these dormant ones for a change. If you look at the anatomy of the face, you'll see muscles lie in so many different directions and they are connected to each other and to the skin, not to mention some are underneath others...Just a whole lotta confusion going on there.
So tone in one muscle causes it to exert a strong force on any muscles attached to it. That pull can also cause an accordion effect on another muscle that is nearby which isn't as toned or on the skin that is indirectly affected by this difference in tone. What face exercises try to do is try to improve tone in all the muscles so that there's an opening up of the creases due to a firmer pull on related muscles and a smoothing out of the wrinkles as the muscles underneath firm up and push up as the ones that are rarely used finally get some tone and pull on those that are used regularly. That's a simplistic way of explaining it but it's as far as my little brain cares to go and it makes sense to me as I have observed changes in myself and others that seem to confirm this.
It is helpful to understand what happens to skin as we age. Dr Pickart has a great article on that on this page: http://www.reverseskinaging.com/biology1.html
This brings me to the other positive effect of face exercises: they do help with improving skin elasticity and collagen according to the following articles: http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/as-you-exercise-the-face-how-does-it-improve-over-time
I do agree with Sean that Tom's workout is a great one to start with but I don't think it's just good for young people; there was a discussion just the other day on SkinBio where a 70-year old shared how helpful Tom's program has been to her. And it has kept Tom looking great for his age, so give it a shot. The bonus is it's FREE! (There's a CD you can buy of the workout but I do think you can make do with just the website. I have friends who only use that.) Please read the whole website before you start as he gives a lot of good info and I think proper form is very important with any workout so please pay attention to the details he gives for each exercise (www.shapeyourface.com). I have friends who do the it and love it. Initially you may not be able to do the workout as well as Tom does but persistence pays off, and as your face gets stronger, you'll get better at the exercises. Tom has a forum too where you can get suggestions and helps from others and Tom himself, who's a great guy BTW, if you have any problems. |
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Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:40 pm |
| Thanks Nonie those links were really informative, I had never really thought about the botox affect as its not something I have considered it sounds like a vicious cycle that once you start its hard to stop, I'm definantly gonna start a facial exercise regime although when I look at the before/after pics I can't really see much difference between them just looks like different poses/expressions although I'm probably not comparing as well as they are themselves, it may be quite subtle, I have ordered some collagen supplements so hopefully they will help as well |
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Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:57 pm |
| That was great Nonie! |
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Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:52 pm |
| flick24 wrote: |
| Thanks Nonie those links were really informative, I had never really thought about the botox affect as its not something I have considered it sounds like a vicious cycle that once you start its hard to stop, I'm definantly gonna start a facial exercise regime although when I look at the before/after pics I can't really see much difference between them just looks like different poses/expressions although I'm probably not comparing as well as they are themselves, it may be quite subtle, I have ordered some collagen supplements so hopefully they will help as well |
flick24, I do agree it's hard sometimes to really discern changes in people that do face exercises, so perhaps instead of looking at the changes, you can look at the final results rather than where the people started from. Echoecho made a point which I thought was very good: that people who do face exercises generally look good. Maybe not "perfect" but definitely good enough to be happy with their faces.
I don't claim to take great pics but I took the following photos for my own benefit and to get guidance from my face exercise instructor, Carolyn, so I did try to take them as clearly as I could. I had taken a hiatus from face exercising for several months to a year and not only did my skin not look that great, I had pronounced N/L lines when I smiled by January 2007. In the course of a few months of doing a good program, my N/L gradually diminshed by becoming shallow and the double parenthesis also became less obvious and eventually disappeared. (The 3 photos on top were taken in January 2007 and the 3 below those were taken in March 2007, three months into the program:
8 months in, August 2007, my N/L lines were where I wanted them and I was very happy with my face:
January 2009, about 2 years since I started the program I'm on, I couldn't have been happier:
Here's another random photo taken in June 2008 that I think shows the improvement in my N/L lines when compared with the January 2007 image:
I believe most people who take before/after photos do so not to fool others but to share exciting "news". So even if the change may not be obvious, I can tell you from my own experience, it is usually remarkable and pleasing enough for them to want to share. But as I've said before, the proof is in the pudding. We would not be singing praises of face exercises if they didn't work so well. I personally don't use any other anti-aging products like retinols, glycolics, CPs etc and at 40-something, I can honestly say face exercises have helped me keep up with those who do.
Thanks Dickymoe. I'm glad you were able to make sense of that ramble in spite of the typos. Funny how one tends to notice them only after the window for editing has expired. *groan* |
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Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:45 am |
I think the problem is that different conversations are taking place and youve gone out a little on the subject matter of the original poster and trying to dissect my post. Ultimately hydration and dehydration can impact anyone no matter where or who they are or what they do, but the example of an athelete was to give you a broad perspective.
From the athelete and other people its not so much that theyre genetically different but they place much more demand on their physical bodies than the average person does and generally they have a much greater sense of their body and its functioning than most average people do. However theyre not alone. Diabetics for example often have greater awareness of their bloodsugar levels and what foods increase them (I speak from personal experience here).
Actually drinking water when having a meal isnt such a great idea because it has a way of diluting the digestive enzymes and acids (which we dont want). However from the point of hydration, its really very simple. It simply boils down to what fluids you give to your body and how effectively the body is able to use that to hydrate. Whilst Im aware of one study that suggests teas/coffee hydrate, I think it really is much more simplistic to look at it from the bodys perspective. When you feed the body fluids, whatever is in those fluids have to be used by the body or passed through its filtering system. So pure filtered water (or bottled spring water for example) presents a very different journey and filtering system than say a tea or coffee. Not all waters are equal. For example in the UK tap water has over 20 different chemicals in it. So when a person drinks tap water their body has to filter out 20 plus chemicals alongside the water. Different in comparison to someone who drinks a filtered water or mineral water.
Usually in the world and warm places you will often find that there is a huge different in genetics and cultural practices too that work in synergy with a persons diet and water intake. Whilst for example eskimos might not drink the same amount of water as say someone in the tropics, when you look at their diets and what is consumed etc you can often see that there are things eaten that wont put their bodies into dehydration mode as much in comparison to our diets.
As I said previously, if it was possible for us to get all our hydration needs from vegetables alone I'd be all for it, but with today's modern lifestyles and the different farming methods out there its very difficult to do, but ultimately it would be amazing to even incorporate water from vegetables into all our diets as it does have an electromagnetic charge thats valuable to the body!
| Lotusesther wrote: |
I don't mean to be argumentative, but this is not very clear to me. Is a modern athlete genetically different from other people?
All over the world in warm places where you need to replenish a lot of fluids people drink tea. Lots of it. Bottled water is more to drink when you are having a meal.
Finally I don't think it makes much difference why you need to take in fluids, whether it's from exercise or anything else - rehydration is answering to a need of the body to get fluids back in. It makes no difference whether or not you are an athlete. What matters is, how quickly and efficiently the body can absorb the liquid it is offered. |
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Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:31 am |
Sorry to keep going on, but there are some things here that are simply not correct.
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As I said previously, if it was possible for us to get all our hydration needs from vegetables alone I'd be all for it, but with today's modern lifestyles and the different farming methods out there its very difficult to do, but ultimately it would be amazing to even incorporate water from vegetables into all our diets as it does have an electromagnetic charge thats valuable to the body!
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Fact is, we do get water from our fruits and vegetables. Even more than long ago, since commercial growers tend to please the eye and produce fruits and veggies that look plump and moist, because they contain more water (Dutch tomatoes, also called 'water bombs', are one of the most extreme examples - all looks, no taste). So anyone who eats fruits and vegetables encorporates water from fruits and vegetables in their diet. The body - especially the last part of the bowel - absorbs it.
| Quote: |
Usually in the world and warm places you will often find that there is a huge different in genetics and cultural practices too that work in synergy with a persons diet and water intake. Whilst for example eskimos might not drink the same amount of water as say someone in the tropics, when you look at their diets and what is consumed etc you can often see that there are things eaten that wont put their bodies into dehydration mode as much in comparison to our diets.
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People on the North Pole sweat less because the temperature is lower, so they don't have to take in as much water and salt as someone in the tropics. Genetics have nothing to do with this. Often food is very spicy in warmer climats, and salty (often added in the form of salty soy sauces etc., or fermented prawns, stuff like that) which would compensate for salt loss due to sweating. If anything, people would get bloated from taking in too much salt - puffy eyes, due to water retention, not dehydration.
| Quote: |
| When you feed the body fluids, whatever is in those fluids have to be used by the body or passed through its filtering system. |
This goes for ALL fluids, including the fluids in fruit and vegetables. Everything we ingest will encounter our filtering system, and that is just as well.
Sorry for the long post, but some things just don't add up, unless you're trying to sell bottled water. |
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Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:11 am |
Lotusesther your misinterpreting things into my messages so Id like to clarify this a little for you but dont have time to go into every single detail here that I would like - it would be like writing a book and Im sure that people dont want or need that, besides there are some excellent books out there already. There are several statements that your making that are also not CORRECT too and some of your statements are based on dissecting segments of the information Im posting and of course when you look at snippets of them, its easy to misintrepet them, so you really need to take all the factors into context and perhaps where we are also mixing things up is that Im basing this on my experience of working with people too using nutritional therapy (which I�ve studied and qualified in).
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| Sorry to keep going on, but there are some things here that are simply not correct. |
Let me explain, theres no denying at all that we get some water from vegetables - Its a FACT. what Im saying here is that very few people can consume the basic daily amount needed by their bodies for their total water consumption. Dont forget even basic metabolic functioning uses water, not to mention things like sweating etc. It all pulls on the body's supplies of water. Even if you were to lie down all day, your body would use up some of the water it had consumed previously. FACT. We know this and its got a lot of studies behind it. Even a person who sat around and did nothing all day would need to replenish their water supplies as we lose water even during sleep (FACT). If they were able to eat a rich and nutritional diet with contained vegetables that hold water - that would be fantastic. However what Ive found in my experience is that people have busy lives and are working etc, and often dont consume sufficient quantities of those fruits and vegetables. Not only that but the amount a person would need to eat to make up that number is quite substantial and would take a lot of time and planning. Im not saying this is impossible, it certainly is, but most people will not be willing to put that amount of time, effort, money and energy into doing so, so where they are concerned, Im suggesting they go for a pure good quality water. That�s not to say they have to go out and buy the most expensive. They could even get it from a local spring if it was near to them (which often would be free!). Even if people eat these fruits and vegetables its no guarantee that they are supplying their bodies with sufficient water. Whilst these are definitely useful and important to consume, if theyre falling short of supplying all the water their bodies need theyre going to be robbing their bodies and preventing their bodies do the best that they could be doing.
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| act is, we do get water from our fruits and vegetables. Even more than long ago, since commercial growers tend to please the eye and produce fruits and veggies that look plump and moist, because they contain more water (Dutch tomatoes, also called 'water bombs', are one of the most extreme examples - all looks, no taste). So anyone who eats fruits and vegetables encorporates water from fruits and vegetables in their diet. The body - especially the last part of the bowel - absorbs it. |
As for the genetics conversation, its so complex and its really impossible to go into such detail to draw upon everything that would be needed to say. The eskimo example does of course incorporate conversations about temperature and lifestyle, but it also does take into account the stuff thats eaten and drunken too. Whilst the temperature is indeed lower, they still need to consume water and they do drink water (and its very highly mineralised water nothing like that of our tap water in the UK). Secondly the fish they eat are often not of the contaminated or farm variety too that are common place here in the UK. You will tend to find that eskimos dont just appear out of no where and that often there is a long genetic hierarchy in place whereby their genes and lifestyles have adapted as a result of the environment. Whilst genes are never the sole answer to anything, they have to form a basis of the conversation. Its difficult to go further into your message re salt etc because again its a conversation of several factors.
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| People on the North Pole sweat less because the temperature is lower, so they don't have to take in as much water and salt as someone in the tropics. Genetics have nothing to do with this. Often food is very spicy in warmer climats, and salty (often added in the form of salty soy sauces etc., or fermented prawns, stuff like that) which would compensate for salt loss due to sweating. If anything, people would get bloated from taking in too much salt - puffy eyes, due to water retention, not dehydration. |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| Sorry for the long post, but some things just don't add up, unless you're trying to sell bottled water. |
Im most certainly not trying to sell bottled water, but I am saying that if people know dehydration is an issue for them then a good quality bottled water can be a useful tool, but it never can take the place of natural water from vegetables, but hell it can be used in conjunction with them. The basic point I was making was that the body treats natural waters very differently than those of teas, coffees and in this thread the actual response was about DIET COKE. Thats the very distinction I was making at the beginning. You cannot include Diet Coke to have the same benefit as water. Likewise you cannot compare tap water to spring water. They are vastly different not only in their chemical composition but also their activities and demands on the filtering system of the body and also how they are used by the body.
As I said previously, you need to look at my responses and the messages they were in response to - to fully understand where my suggestions are coming from and what they are in response to. Im not disputing many of the things you are saying Lotusether but I dont think your understanding what these comments are in relation to nor are you understanding the essence of the message Im trying to convey here to the original poster. |
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Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:22 am |
Athletes are usually very self aware of their bodies and their nutrition and exercising is usually second to none. They’re usually very accomplished and often have bloodwork and medical tests done to ensure that their bodies are running at optimal levels but also to avoid many of the pitfalls that normal people would face. So with something say like an imbalance in minerals, an athelete generally will have access to far more professional resources that can quickly diagnose and fix faster than say you or I or the average person.
Rehydration is firstly about getting the body out of dehydration alert (which it goes into to protect itself and the organs). That’s one of the main issues that professionals work with – to get the body switched out of that survival mode. For many average people who don’t have access to the same resources as atheletes its not uncommon for them to be in dehydration mode for a significant amount of time and this has a knock on effect when it happens in the body. So whilst its a good comparison, its a complex one that you really have to break down and go into significant details with. I've had the privilege of working with some of the doctors who worked with the previous UK olympic teams in the UK, and am also due to meet some working with the UK olympic teams next year in the coming months as its one of the areas I'm most interested in.
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| Finally I don't think it makes much difference why you need to take in fluids, whether it's from exercise or anything else - rehydration is answering to a need of the body to get fluids back in. It makes no difference whether or not you are an athlete. What matters is, how quickly and efficiently the body can absorb the liquid it is offered. |
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Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:28 am |
Correction - I said "If your young, that may be all you need. Then as time passes and if your goals change you can start exploring other things." Hate it when people try to put words in my mouth that are completely incorrect.
| Nonie aka AD wrote: |
| I do agree with Sean that Tom's workout is a great one to start with but I don't think it's just good for young people; there was a discussion just the other day on SkinBio where a 70-year old shared how helpful Tom's program has been to her. And it has kept Tom looking great for his age, so give it a shot. |
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Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:39 am |
Sorry to go on about this. But
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| Im most certainly not trying to sell bottled water, but I am saying that if people know dehydration is an issue for them then a good quality bottled water can be a useful tool, but it never can take the place of natural water from vegetables, but hell it can be used in conjunction with them. The basic point I was making was that the body treats natural waters very differently than those of teas, coffees and in this thread the actual response was about DIET COKE. Thats the very distinction I was making at the beginning. You cannot include Diet Coke to have the same benefit as water. Likewise you cannot compare tap water to spring water. They are vastly different not only in their chemical composition but also their activities and demands on the filtering system of the body and also how they are used by the body. |
You CAN compare tap water with spring water. In fact, in many places tap water IS spring water. It's H2O with some mineral salts etc. in them, unless you live in a city where they use chlorine or fluoride in the tap water, in which case it's potable and won't make you sick (well, the fluoride will do that eventually) but it tastes foul. But basically what the body takes in and uses is plain old H2O.
One of the main points of how well the body can absorb water from fluids has to do with concentration. Absorption of water is an active process. I disagree with the emphasis you put on genetics, as it is very simple to observe that migrants who adopt the diet of the country they migrated to do very well on that diet. If anything, the macrobiotic theory would be viable since the local diet has developed to give the best survival rate for that particular place on earth given the resources naturally present.
It's very nice for you to be able to work with doctors who work for the Olympic team. But I don't think that's very relevant for this conversation, is it? Athletes are a very small part of mankind with very specific needs, due to the extreme demands they make on their bodies. You will find that athletes, once they quit sports, have a very difficult time adjusting physically to a normal lifestyle. So how relevant is their diet and intake of supplements, muscle building extra's, hormones and hormone stimulating substances etc. for the people on this forum? |
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Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:50 am |
I can only talk about the stuff i've learned about the water here in the UK and you most certainly can't compare tap water to spring water. Its documented that here in London for example up to 23 different chemicals have been found in tap water that aren't present in spring water. Likewise its not so much that genetics I'm placing emphasis on, but it's a factor of the conversation that you have to take into context.
Likewise the conversation of athletes is simply talking about the example of rehydrating with green tea. The point i was making is that these studies were done with athletes and not the average person, so you have to take that into account. Will the average person have the same reaction as an athlete - Im not convinced. However that's not to discredit green tea, as its certainly high in lots of good things for the body, but the dehydration that an athlete might experience is on a very different scale to that of dehydration that the original poster in this thread is talking about.
As you can see the original poster of this thread talks specifically about how to make sure their skin is hydrated, and mentions specifically that they are always drinking fluids - mainly diet coke. But hey you take it from here - you tell us what you would recommend the original poster of this thread to do to rehydrate them and I'll leave you to it. Sorry I tried to help and over to you! |
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Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:32 am |
I don't have to give any solution whatsoever, and anyone who prefers bottled water over any other kind of water will drink bottled water. Personally I would not so readily assume a potentially life threatening situation like dehydration. And lack of moisture in the skin would first of all make me check what I have been doing to it to make it lose moisture - like exfoliation, harsh chemicals, peels, retin-a, anything that might have damaged the skin's capacity to keep moisture in. Second, if I could not find such a direct cause, I might be looking into diet, thyroid function, hormone balance, things like that. But on the other hand, lines are inevitable at some point in life.
When constantly frowning I could also have my eyes checked, to see if I need glasses or a new prescription because my current glasses aren't strong enough anymore. Most people don't really frown but squint, to see better. I know I do, and when I do I must have my eyes checked again. So you see, I wouldn't really go for diet or water intake as a primary cause for wrinkles while exercising, but keep it simple, look first at skin condition and at what may cause the repetitive movement or constant expression. |
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Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:58 am |
Its possible to live with dehydration present without it being life threatening? Whilst there are cases where dehydration can be present alongside a life threatening condition it simply would depend on the treatment and scale and level of treatments that were taking place before it was decided whether to treat the dehydration or the underlying condition first. We know that the original poster of this thread seems able bodied and hasn’t mentioned any other life threatening situations. They mention a liquid primary DIET COKE. So to say all liquids are equal in this case you would need to apply that to diet coke and with all the chemicals it contains (aspartame for example) I’m not sure you could compare that to spring water.
Lack of moisture is not always attributable to just dehydration, it can also be a sign of deficiencies for example in omega 3 and 6 although in my experience I’ve found that when people do have lines they are both dehydrated and lacking in an essential nutrient like omega 3 and when treating these people nutritionally I personally work with dehydration as that’s easier to correct, but that’s not to say it couldn’t happen the other way round without success. Whilst dry skin can sometimes be due to just lack of water, in 90% of cases it isn’t. With exfoliation, harsh chemicals, peels etc whilst these can cause the skin to lose moisture I’m not so sure you could say these would be the sole and primary cause of dry skin and also if these were used I’d be interested to find out if the people were dehydrated at the same time as these principles happening. I’m not aware of any current studies showing us whether or not this is the case.
I agree with you re hormone balance and endocrine functioning (but whilst thyroid is one of the common there are several others. For example a more common one to date is adrenal fatigue and of course diabetes). In all these cases I’d actually suggest a person works with a professional medical adviser and gets bloodwork done to rule these out as its very difficult to make a 100% certain decision on whether these are key factors. With such a condition in place which would usually present a much wider range of symptons than dehydration (lack of energy, unrefreshing sleep, poor digestion, unbalanced sugar levels etc to name but a few).
“lines are inevitable at some point in life” this is simply a belief and there are many prime examples of this being inaccurate nowadays. Lines are not inevitable. They don’t happen for no reason at all. There is always tissue damage before these things show up. Whether its from sun exposure in our teens (most common cause according to a survey by some plastic surgery association in the 90’s) or from making constant expressions – there are things that can be done when these do show up. I for example had several lines all over my face in my early 20’s and now have none. So unless perhaps i’m living in an alternate world I think I’m proof that the last statement is incorrect. |
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Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:01 pm |
| Quote: |
| �lines are inevitable at some point in life� this is simply a belief and there are many prime examples of this being inaccurate nowadays. Lines are not inevitable. They don�t happen for no reason at all. There is always tissue damage before these things show up. |
Well, it would be so wonderful to believe that lines and wrinkles are a matter of choice, not fate and time, wouldn't it? And of course we all keep on trying, though most procedures and gadgets are there to repair the damage done. People age, you can slow things down but I still have to see the first 80 year old who looks 25. |
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Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:06 pm |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
Correction - I said "If your young, that may be all you need. Then as time passes and if your goals change you can start exploring other things." Hate it when people try to put words in my mouth that are completely incorrect.
| Nonie aka AD wrote: |
| I do agree with Sean that Tom's workout is a great one to start with but I don't think it's just good for young people; there was a discussion just the other day on SkinBio where a 70-year old shared how helpful Tom's program has been to her. And it has kept Tom looking great for his age, so give it a shot. |
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Vague statements are open to many forms of interpretation so keep your hair on, SeanySeanUK. All you had to do is clarify what you meant, not get your knickers in a bunch when you are the one who made an unclear statement. I took Logic and English in college and your statement "If your (sic) young, [Tom's program] may be all you need" can be interpreted as "If you're not young, then you may need more than Tom's program". And my response was to that inference.
Nothing in your statement "If your (sic) young, that may be all you need" explicitly relayed your point with regard to "change of goals as time passes". You may have thought it and may have meant it but we're not mind readers, so unless you spell it out, we can only go by what you wrote. So clearly I didn't put words in your mouth nor did I misunderstand what you wrote; and even with this added elaboration, I still echo my previous statement except now I'll add that "it may not be necessary for one to explore other avenues as time passes if your goals don't change" so no point in bringing the point up at all. (That would be like saying, "you could take up dancing as a form of exercise and then after some time get crutches if you break your leg and find you can't stand without them" basing that suggestion on something that happened to me when I took dancing. LOL) And to support my argument that a change may not be necessary, I once again give the example I gave of a lady who is 70+ who has found Tom's program alone to suffice. What's more, while Tom himself started it at a young age, he hasn't had to explore other avenues but is still content with his program.
In other words, let's stop making it seem as if Tom's program is "insufficient" and needs to be supplemented later on when that's not the case for many who do it. What's more, "change of goals as time passes" is not something I personally have experienced, nor have I witnessed it in any of the people I know personally who do face exercises. So not really something I'd throw out there for someone who's new to face exercises as if it's the norm for most. Many people who commit to one program seem very happy with it and usually find it satisfies their goals over time. Aprile is a good example of one such person who's found Facercise to be an excellent program and her results with it are proof enough. Marilyn has been doing Eva Fraser's program for years and she too is happy with it. Just as you have been doing FE for years and are happy with it.
If I were starting a face exercise program, I'd be discouraged if I was led to believe that I may have to buy a different program down the road, especially when I'm looking to find one I can believe in and commit to. Clearly this idea that a change down the road is inevitable is not true--as seen in the examples I gave. In fact, I think curiosity or disappoint with a program are the main reasons people go to other programs. The idea that they got what they wanted from one and are now looking for something else, while a legit reason that I've seen mentioned (even by you), doesn't rank as highly as the two reasons I just gave; so IMO it is not worth bringing up. |
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Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:36 pm |
The line in bold in my last post should have read: In fact, I think curiosity or disappointment with a program are the main reasons people go to other programs.
Sorry for the typo--now corrected by the italicized suffix. |
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Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:01 am |
It is not a vague statement, but you clearly choose to try to misinterpret what was saying. You seem to constantly try to twist my words, and such a comment that Tom’s program is insufficient is a complete and utter lie. I’ve never said such a thing and never would dream of saying it. You always seem to try create wars between facial exercise programs and I’ll never understand why. It is so unnecessary. Its remarks like this that can travel and do travel and I would be horrified if Tom thought I had said such a statement as I have a great deal of respect for him and what he does.
As for change of goals, its based purely on my experience as a trainer of a program in working with a large number of people. Its not to say that people can’t get and stick with one program at all. Again its your applying an interpretation to what Ive said which clearly isn’t there. Many people do work with one program and I applaud them for it. Likewise though some people when they start learning about facial exercises get motivated and really want to learn more and again I think they should be supported for doing so. As for goals changing, the goals of someone at 30, usually will be different at 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 etc. I am all for choice and empowerment and if a person has different goals, I want to support them in achieving them whether with the program I train in or recommending another program to them.
If they start working with Tom’s programs and get great results and are happy with it I’m all for them. If they want to explore other programs or see what Facercise can do for them – then what is the big issue? Likewise in your example of Aprile’s case, I’m sure Aprile has found that as time passes she is still getting more and more results and experiencing progressive results that are in line with her goals. Where she may have started out with wanting to perhaps correct guantness (I’m guessing) and achieved that with Facercise, she might then have wanted to work on a different goal, or may have seen such a dramatic transformation that she wanted to apply Facercise to achieve a new goal. Progression is very normal in facial exercises, and why shouldn’t people be allowed to have changeable goals. No one is saying that people HAVE to buy any program down the road. But if people choose to do so then I think they should be supported for it not ridiculed.
Hope that’s cleared it up for you. |
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FlexEffect Trainer |
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Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:49 pm |
Oh that's an old one and you will find a lot of discussion about this video somewhere here on EDS.
It does't worry me one bit. I don't take that kind of advice from someone who has had such a bad eye job. |
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Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:34 pm |
flick24, even though I like DermTV's other videos, I can tell you that he clearly has no idea what face exercises are about. What folding and stretching unnecessarily is he talking about? And why is it that people who do face exercises and have done them for years look better than people who don't? He obviously has been reading up on the wrong exercises or just hasn't had experience with them but is going but what someone told him.
Doctors who have actually bothered to look at face exercises objectively can tell you the benefits. If I remember correctly, FE had on their website doctors' reports on Face exercises. Carolyn does too. And not just that, Eva Fraser is about 20 years older than this guy and she has been doing face exercises for about 30 years and she looks way better than he does:
Tom Haggerty is also over ten years older than him and has been doing face exercises for so many years, and he too has beautiful tone and contours to his face:
 
Jack Lalane looked great in his nineties and is another face exerciser:
http://www.jacklalanne.com/blog/?m=201003
And the list is endless. Surely we can't all be mad? And if exercises make you look older, how is it that Carolyn could look like this in 1997:
And then in 2006 after face exercises look like this:
And in this video she is the same age as the doctor but clearly her face doesn't show the signs of aging the way his does (Not saying it to be mean; just stating a fact): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFO1gGNt3Gg&feature=player_embedded
People think doctors have all the answers, but just go to Cancer Centers of America and you'll find cancer patients who were told by some doctors they'd be dead by a certain time, who not only lived beyond the "use by date" but went on to recover fully. Why? They didn't buy into that negative prognosis; they looked into other remedies, and as long as they didn't hurt them, they used them and proved the doctors with the bleak prognosis wrong. So doctors don't know it all. And it is this narrow-mindedness of some that has many people taking their own health into their own hands and doing their own homework.
Years ago, doctors didn't know the role food plays in heart disease, diabetes, etc. So it may be years before they catch on on what many people already know about face exercises. Even today, while many open-minded doctors are practicing integrated medicine (combining orthodox and alternative remedies) and thinking in terms of holistic treatments, you still have a few who insist on ONLY orthodox medicine and focus on treating symptoms instead of the cause or the whole person, and on prescribing medicines with more side-effects than the problem they were supposed to be curing in the first place.
So this doctor is not the only "expert" you'll come across who'll dismiss face exercises as being bad for you. There are many who feel this way. Yet none has shown me an alternative that gives the natural and beautiful results I see people get from face exercises. Even when cosmetic surgery is done well initially, down the road, as more tweaking becomes necessary and is done, something always starts looks off, and in time people no longer look normal.
But I guess it's a lot like religion. You can take a leap of faith and find out for yourself what's true and what's not; or you could just decide from the get-go what you choose to believe and stick with that. The only thing I suggest is you do your homework and find out all you can, keeping in mind that YOU are in charge of your own life and should never agree to do anything if it doesn't feel right. Listen to that small voice in your head that warns when you're about to do something you shouldn't and follow its direction. It's usually right. |
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Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:23 am |
WOW Thanks those pictures are great I can really see how facial exercise has had a positive effect so I'm not so worried about starting to do some myself.
I too like derm tv but sometimes have been confused by what he says. |
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Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:03 am |
| flick24 wrote: |
| I have slight frown lines which must have been caused by me repeatedly frowning, I'm not a miserable person but I do it without realising. |
Have you tried anti-wrinkle patches like Frownies? They are supposed to be really good for preventing frown lines. |
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Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:48 am |
| Yes, I have been looking at frownies today actually and definantly plan to get some on payday, are they just temporary effects or does it last? I can't help frowning I'm trying to train myself not to but have always done it. |
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Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:23 pm |
| Nonie aka AD wrote: |
| flick24 wrote: |
| Thanks Nonie those links were really informative, I had never really thought about the botox affect as its not something I have considered it sounds like a vicious cycle that once you start its hard to stop, I'm definantly gonna start a facial exercise regime although when I look at the before/after pics I can't really see much difference between them just looks like different poses/expressions although I'm probably not comparing as well as they are themselves, it may be quite subtle, I have ordered some collagen supplements so hopefully they will help as well |
flick24, I do agree it's hard sometimes to really discern changes in people that do face exercises, so perhaps instead of looking at the changes, you can look at the final results rather than where the people started from. Echoecho made a point which I thought was very good: that people who do face exercises generally look good. Maybe not "perfect" but definitely good enough to be happy with their faces.
I don't claim to take great pics but I took the following photos for my own benefit and to get guidance from my face exercise instructor, Carolyn, so I did try to take them as clearly as I could. I had taken a hiatus from face exercising for several months to a year and not only did my skin not look that great, I had pronounced N/L lines when I smiled by January 2007. In the course of a few months of doing a good program, my N/L gradually diminshed by becoming shallow and the double parenthesis also became less obvious and eventually disappeared. (The 3 photos on top were taken in January 2007 and the 3 below those were taken in March 2007, three months into the program:
8 months in, August 2007, my N/L lines were where I wanted them and I was very happy with my face:
January 2009, about 2 years since I started the program I'm on, I couldn't have been happier:
Here's another random photo taken in June 2008 that I think shows the improvement in my N/L lines when compared with the January 2007 image:
I believe most people who take before/after photos do so not to fool others but to share exciting "news". So even if the change may not be obvious, I can tell you from my own experience, it is usually remarkable and pleasing enough for them to want to share. But as I've said before, the proof is in the pudding. We would not be singing praises of face exercises if they didn't work so well. I personally don't use any other anti-aging products like retinols, glycolics, CPs etc and at 40-something, I can honestly say face exercises have helped me keep up with those who do.
Thanks Dickymoe. I'm glad you were able to make sense of that ramble in spite of the typos. Funny how one tends to notice them only after the window for editing has expired. *groan* |
Wow Nonie! the NLs look like they are completely gone! NLs are my biggest problems too! If it's ok, can you share exactly what exercises you did to get rid of the NLs? I looked at the Tom Haggerty ones and I dont see any directly for the nasolabial lines so I was hoping you could share some of the exercises you did. Thanks in advance! |
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Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:19 pm |
| Peggotty wrote: |
| Wow Nonie! the NLs look like they are completely gone! NLs are my biggest problems too! If it's ok, can you share exactly what exercises you did to get rid of the NLs? I looked at the Tom Haggerty ones and I dont see any directly for the nasolabial lines so I was hoping you could share some of the exercises you did. Thanks in advance! |
Hi Peggotty:
Thanks for the compliment. Unfortunately, I couldn't tell you to what specific exercises I owe the success I've had with my N/L lines. Rather I believe it is doing an entire program and staying in touch with the author of the program to make sure I was on the right track. Let me explain....
When I started the CFF program, one of my main areas of concern was my eyes. The advice I had had previously with another program that involved isolating muscles had been that you should work the areas that were in need of help more and back off those that were OK. So I started CFF with that state of mind and would sometimes try to do more reps that suggested for my "problem areas". What I noticed though is that on days when I didn't have time to be that extra but just followed CFF as the directions said, I'd appear to look better than on the days when I'd try to focus on the "bad areas" and do more reps for them. Carolyn also dissuaded me from changing anything about her program but to do it as it is directed. (I should mention here that I had sent her my photos before I started and then regular updates, a so she was privy to my needs in ways she would not have been if I'd not been in touch and therefore could advise me if anything needed changing. But as far as she was concerned each time I sent her updates, she saw that I was on the right track and insisted I do it all.) Anyway, I decided to just trust her and do the entire program as she told me to, without changing a thing, and THAT is when positive changes started to happen. I believe it is all the exercises combined that gave/give the wonderful results I have today, each exercises enhancing the effect of the others. I should also mention that perhaps if Carolyn had seen a need that I shouldn't do them all, she would have directed me thus, because if anyone understands her program and how it works, it would be she.
Many people do not agree with my way of thinking--that one should not do bits from here, bits from there, but rather should do programs in their entirety. But honestly the more I look at face muscles, the more it makes sense to me that good results come from not working certain areas exclusively but from working all the parts so they tie in together. I also believe that a good program aims to work all parts and that instructors try to create a program for which each exercise is essential to the success of the whole. So the idea of not doing all, but rather picking a few from here and a few from there is taking a risk I'd rather not.
Why a risk, you ask? Take a look at Carolyn's Interactive Muscle Chart and hold your mouse to any of the photos at the bottom to then see what muscle, as highlighted in the diagram above, the exercise targets. Notice how it's not just one but several muscles. Notice also that some muscles are targeted by more than one exercise within the same program but with each, there are other different ones also brought into the picture so that there's a slight twist in how each exercise affects the face.
So now suppose you don't do all CFF (or whatever its author, Carolyn tells you she feels you need to do) and instead assume you know better and replace one or more of her exercises with another or more exercises you heard about from another program. As you can see from the chart above, just because an exercise is supposed to target a certain muscle doesn't mean that's the only one affected. So you do an exercise that you believe targets the one you skipped on the CFF program, except this new one either skips so much more (coz it's an isolation exercise) or involves so many more that you already worked (coz it works groups of muscles) hence affects muscles in ways that neither instructor had intended for your muscles to be affected. So you find yourself with a problem that neither program can fix because each added it's own weird twist to what you're supposed to get. And adding a third exercise you believe will undo what the two combined did, IMO, is like trying to mix paint to get a certain shade and then thinking if you add one more, you'll get it, but just finding that with each addition you get farther and farther away from the desired shade.
In short, I suspect that by working groups of muscles, my face lifted up uniformly; or it could be that some underlying muscles were strengthened and they pushed out on the N/L lines or others pulled on some muscles and flattened things out. I really don't know how it happened and to be honest, I've never really felt a need to understand it. 
You see, when I was doing a program that focused so much on the muscular anatomy of the face and the names of the muscles targeted, I found I didn't seem to become cleverer on what was needed when things went wrong by memorizing the names of the muscles or what each muscle's physiology was or where it was located. If anything, it got so frustrating because if really exercise X is supposed to do Y, why isn't it doing it? LOL Ironically, the three programs I sing praises about because I've never had problems with them (Eva's, Tom's and Carolyn's) are programs I've done w/o really bothering to understand what muscles are being targeted, but rather by just doing the programs in their entirety. And in each case, I've been very happy with the results.
You mentioned Tom's program not appearing to target N/L which seems to be the case--there's no exercise that isolates or focuses on N/L lines per se, but when you look at his face he doesn't have N/L lines! How come? Magic perhaps? I think that we can drive ourselves crazy trying to figure out some stuff that has been tried and proven true. Tom's program seems so simple--almost a joke, because it's so short and it's so gentle that until you witness the effectiveness of proper form (which will come as muscles get stronger) may feel like you're basically wasting time. But when you look at Tom's beautiful contours and consider that he credits his good looks to this simple program, you realize that there's a lot to face exercises that we may not fully understand.
So I say, look at the photos of those who do various programs. Find the program whose results you like and want for yourself. Do it as the instructor directs, asking questions when in doubt...and just trust that the results you see in others you admire who do that program will someday be yours...if you "Just Do It!" (à la Nike) and keep a postive mental attitude. I also would implore you not to expect immediate results but rather commit to the program and make it part of your lifestyle without checking for results. The surprise when you've reached the finish line are so much better that watching a pot boil. |
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