upper eye lid lift
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free skin care · Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:22 pm

Nonie in no way am I doubting that facial exercise works (it certainly does for the body!) but I am having difficulty imagining where the extra flesh goes IYSWIM. Embarassed

I can see in some photos the eyebrow is lifted, as mine are when the muscles behind my ears are contracted (I have control over this). But in the cases where the eyebrow appears stationary has the extra skin been 'sucked into' the crease by the muscle surrounding the eye orbit? Embarassed

In your experience does this only work for age-related sagging or for those of us born with hooded eyes?

free skin care · Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:53 pm

EthelM wrote:

Actually, the upper bleph really is an easy surgery. The lower bleph, where fat pads are removed, isn't quite as easy due to increased swelling and bruising---it a more involved procedure than an upper belph. With an upper bleph, many PS will offer the choice between local anesthetics and "twilight" sedation (which is less expensive) or general anesthesia. The procedure removes a thin slice of skin, and either sutures or butterfly bandaging is used to secure the incision (depending on severity of the excision and whether or not any adipose tissue is also removed). Recovery is usually 2 weeks, tops, and seldom is there much bruising. The upper eye skin remains a tad red, with slight swelling, for about a week, and then all subsides fairly quickly. It truly is an easy procedure particularly if one doesn't have any excess fatty tissue removed with the slack skin. Granted, removal of fatty tissue can increase the swelling and bruising, but honestly, only a little when in an upper bleph.

I agree totally. Surgery is surgery - but getting excess skin from the eyelid removed is a relatively straight forward procedure - one of the least problematic cosmetic procedures available.

A Botox brow lift acts in the same way as a surgical brow lift. It lifts up the forehead skin which, in turn, lifts the eyelid skin.

free skin care · Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:38 pm

Firefox7275 wrote:

Nonie in no way am I doubting that facial exercise works (it certainly does for the body!) but I am having difficulty imagining where the extra flesh goes IYSWIM. Embarassed

I can see in some photos the eyebrow is lifted, as mine are when the muscles behind my ears are contracted (I have control over this). But in the cases where the eyebrow appears stationary has the extra skin been 'sucked into' the crease by the muscle surrounding the eye orbit? Embarassed

In your experience does this only work for age-related sagging or for those of us born with hooded eyes?

I couldn't tell you where the extra skin goes. I have made a deliberate effort not to try to understand how face exercises work beyond just the fact that toned muscles give the skin a lift and make it look smoother.

And I don't think it matters whether eyes sag from aging or are hereditary. In fact, I'd be more likely to expect results in eyes that never used to be hooded but that got that way from aging than in eyes that have always been hooded from birth. Yet you can see, while I fall into the latter category, my eyes did indeed get a complete lift.

My eyes used to be completely hooded when I was a baby. Then they stayed hooded past my teens till my twenties and then somewhere AFTER I STARTED face exercises, the hooding diminished so gradually till they were no longer hooded. The change was so gradual that I didn't even know it was happening nor could I even remember that I used to have hooded eyes until I read on FE that face exercise can give an upper eyelid lift and wondered if my eyes ever looked different. That's when I looked at old photos and was floored.

Here's a review by someone whose eyes got saggier as she aged--I gathered that from the fact that after she describes the changes in her face she says she is back to the face she had:

http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/lizzie

And just another extra feedback on face exercises fixing eyes:

http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/karen-1

free skin care · Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:52 pm

Thanks for your response Nonie; your comment about deliberately trying not to understand gave me a much needed chuckle! Laughing

Sadly I have obsessive-compulsive traits, having to understand to remember drives me to distraction sometimes.

free skin care · Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:47 pm

Firefox7275 wrote:

Thanks for your response Nonie; your comment about deliberately trying not to understand gave me a much needed chuckle! Laughing

Sadly I have obsessive-compulsive traits, having to understand to remember drives me to distraction sometimes.

Firebox7275 that used to be me. I had to know everything about everything and it got to the point where I would not forgive myself if I didn't know something that others did and would not even ask but rather I'd do my own research lest I appear dumb. I bought magazines and papers like they were going out of style and spent hours in bookstores devouring the books. It was bordering on becoming an obsessive disorder or complex of sorts. I had to finally realize that it's OK not to know everything and that it isn't even normal to know everything. And that if I don't try to know everything, I leave room to know stuff that really interests me. I have so many interests and stuff I'd love to learn that making time for all of them is not easy; my interest in understanding face exercises fades in comparison.

Anyway, if I ever come across an explanation of what happens to loose skin that seems to make it appear vacuumed back against the muscle, I'll be sure to find this discussion and add that info, then send you a PM to let you know. Wink

free skin care · Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:10 am

EthelM wrote:

Nonie aka AD wrote:

EthelM wrote:

Barefootgirl wrote:

I do not understand your question the way it is phrased...please clarify.

I will say that the Botox eyelid life works. Mine cost me about $150 and lasted about 4 months.

bfg

Is what you're referring to the same as the Botox "brow lift", which is an injection made above the brow that lifts the outside of the brow...and when the outer eyebrow is lifed, it also slightly lifts the outer part of the eyelid. Or, is this a different injection technique that only affects the eyelid?

EthelM it does sound like that is what she's talking about: http://www.rejuvederm.co.uk/

But I still reckon, face exercises are a cheaper and more effective way to go w/o the side-effects of Botox like muscle atrophy and dependency. These are more photos showing a natural eyelift from face exercises within as short a time as just a few months, but the longer you keep at it, the more permanent the results:

Carolyn's eyes in 1997 (in her fifties):

Carolyn's eyes in 2000 (in her sixties):

Another success story:

Maria's eyes in July 2008:

Maria's eyes a few months later, October 2008:

Yet another success story:

Diana's eyes in November 2010:

Diana's eyes 4.5 months later in March 2011:

And yet another:

Cecilia's improvement in just a couple of months:

Jacqui's eyes before face exercises:

Jacqui's eyes after only 2 weeks of face exercises:

While the following pic isn't really clear because the focus was on hair (Tom's scalp exercise can help with hair loss) it shows Tom when he was 19:

Now in his 70's his brow is nicely lifted so his eyes are open and nicely exposed:

I have to be honest. I don't see much, if any, improvement in these before and after facial exercise photos. What I do see are the after photos taken at slightly different angles and in very slightly different lighting, which actually makes a big difference when photographing something as subtle as an eyelid.

The photos of the Asian eyes in your link won't stay still long enough for me to compare, and I can't even tell if it's the same person. BUT, to be frank, none of the photos you've posted in this thread show me any evidence that facial exercise works to lift the eyelid. Upon first glance, one might see improvement between the "before" and "after" photos. However, if one more closely examines the photos, one can see that in every before and after, there are differences in the angle of the photo, the position of the subject and differences in lighting----all of which can create the illusion of a difference in the eyes, when in fact there isn't any change at all. Even a slightly different neutral/skintone/matte eyeshadow can create the illusion of change. For example, look closely at Jacqui's photos. The space between her eye and eyebrow is much shorter in her "after" photo when compared to her "before" photo...and that generally isn't a desirable change, aesthetically, for most women. Look at the upper lefthand corner of Diana's "after" photo and you can see motion wrinkles at her temple, above her brow---and that tells me she is intentionally raising her eyebrows, which would account for the change in her eyelids. The "improvement" in Diana's eyes isn't any more than one would expect by raising one's brows in mock surprise. Try it yourself in a mirror. I would like to see full face photos of these women, so I can tell if they are purposely raising their brows to create the differences in their eyes---doing so would be obvious by looking at their foreheads and temples. I don't see any improvement whatsoever in Maria's eyes, and her "before" and "after" photos are the most obviously taken at different angles---her face is tilted downward in her "before" photo, and her head is tilted upward in her "after" photo...and her eyelids actually appear more heavily hooded in her after photo. Cecilia's photos are taken from differing distances, with differing photo clarity and with slightly different head position---she is ever so subtley tilted back in her "after" photo. Also, look at how much of her eyeball is covered by her eyelid---(measure the distance between her pupil and the upper lashline) in both photos; her eyelids are more closed in her "after" photo, which gives the illusion of less saggy eyelid skin. Try doing that yourself in the mirror. Carolyn's photos aren't even comparable; they are taken at totally different angles, in different lighting, from differing distances and with different expressions. Her photos aren't useful at all in ascertaining any differences. All in all, I see nothing whatsoever in any of these photos to indicate improvement in the eye area from facial exercise.

free skin care · Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:45 am

heather051 wrote:

Hi I am new to this site,I am 50 and my upper eyelids are drooping I don't want plastic surgery is there anything on the market that will help lift the eyelid

My eyelids started falling apart in my late 20s/early 30s. I've been using Skin Biology CP Serum about a year and a half and have more or less rebuilt my whole eye area.

free skin care · Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:26 pm

EthelM wrote:

The photos of the Asian eyes in your link won't stay still long enough for me to compare, and I can't even tell if it's the same person.

Well, here you go:

Here is the change I see in the Asian eyes: the skin that was hanging over the eyelids has been lifted to reveal the lid. It's something a lot of Asians get surgery to achieve.

For comparison, here are the results of surgery:

(Source)

EthelM wrote:

BUT, to be frank, none of the photos you've posted in this thread show me any evidence that facial exercise works to lift the eyelid. Upon first glance, one might see improvement between the "before" and "after" photos. However, if one more closely examines the photos, one can see that in every before and after, there are differences in the angle of the photo, the position of the subject and differences in lighting----all of which can create the illusion of a difference in the eyes, when in fact there isn't any change at all.

That's not what I see. Take for instance Diana's eyes.

I put them side by side so that it's clear the angle of photography is exactly the same. The after photo is brighter, it's true, but I have never understood why people say that bright light hides a multitude of sins. I'd think it'd be the opposite. In fact, I proved it with my own photos in another thread--which I will be happy to repost here if you wish. Nevertheless, the lighting doesn't change the fact that the eye to our left was previously draped by skin on the outer corner, but that skin is now lifted so we can see the lid all the way across. The eye to our right was also draped on the outer corner, but that's been slightly lifted too. Something that with time will improve and I do hope she will post progress photos down the road.

EthelM wrote:

Even a slightly different neutral/skintone/matte eyeshadow can create the illusion of change. For example, look closely at Jacqui's photos. The space between her eye and eyebrow is much shorter in her "after" photo when compared to her "before" photo...and that generally isn't a desirable change, aesthetically, for most women.

Once again, it seems you and I see different things. First let me address the "distance between eyes and eyebrows".This has nothing to do with eyelid lift. This has to do with her brow hanging over her eyes. The focus here isn't on a full face lift but just the eyes. This is why I don't believe in spot training because for a nice beautiful build, you need all muscles to be toned. Perhaps her forehead muscles are still catching up. With that said, you must also realize that when one's eyes are wide opened, the lashes will be closer to eyebrows than when one has eyes less open, so that too is adding a twist to the mix. Last but not least, and this is where I think the disconnect is, when someone has droopy eyelids, it doesn't matter how wide you open your eyes, the skin will be hanging over your eyelid and concealing it. No makeup will be able to change that. In fact, the wider you open your eyes, the more hidden your eyelid will be. But check out Jacqui's eyes. Let's look at her left eye first. She has a curtain of skin hanging over her lids. Her eyes don't seem wide open but even that isn't helping us see her lid. However in the after photo, it seems as if that skin has been shaven off so that her lid is more visible--especially the outer edge. Instead of her eye looking like it's hard to open because of a weight of skin hanging over it, it appears as if that skin has lifted and is no longer weighing down on her eye, so her eye is wider opened. And this change has occurred in only 2 weeks mind you!. The eye to our right has even had more of a change. The skin was hanging over the eye so that only a small lid was showing. But it seems to have been lifted so that the crease is higher. What's even more remarkable is her eye is open wider in the after photo than in the before photo. I don't know if you know this, but the wider you open your eyes, the less of your lid shows, but in her case the opposite seems to have happened. Not only is her eye more open, ironically, her surface area of her lid is larger. Clearly, there has been an improvement in the tone of the skin on her eyes. Never mind what is going on with her brows. You talking about her eyebrows seem to be looking for an overall face lift. Since this topic was about eyelift, that is all I focused on when finding photos since I assumed people were interested in eyelids not eyebrow lifts.

EthelM wrote:

Look at the upper lefthand corner of Diana's "after" photo and you can see motion wrinkles at her temple, above her brow---and that tells me she is intentionally raising her eyebrows, which would account for the change in her eyelids. The "improvement" in Diana's eyes isn't any more than one would expect by raising one's brows in mock surprise. Try it yourself in a mirror. I would like to see full face photos of these women, so I can tell if they are purposely raising their brows to create the differences in their eyes---doing so would be obvious by looking at their foreheads and temples.

I see what you're talking about and I do agree it does look that way. But wouldn't that movement (raising eyebrows) also create wrinkles on the forehead? My forehead is pretty toned so when I raise my eyebrows the lines I form are shallow and once I relax I get a smooth forehead again. But even the tone in my forehead doesn't stop me from getting lines all the way across and all through my forehead when I raise my eyebrows:

I believe that this is the same for most people. In fact, for most people it seems lines form more in the center of their forehead than on the outsides as you point out on Diane's temple:

Even a single eyebrow raise would not leave the area above the eyebrow smooth, but you'd have furrows at least along the entire top:

I would like to point out that in the world of face exercises, I've come across a phenomenon where people do an exercise to such an extreme that they create creases elsewhere. I think even on this forum I have read of people complaining of having a crease near the ear after months of doing face exercises when they didn't have it before. So it would not surprise me if that wasn't the case here. If you think about it, one eyelid exercise asks that you raise your eyebrows high and pin it there then shut your eyes. You can see Eva doing that here:

The idea is then, against the resistance of your fingers which are pinned against the bone, to close your eyelids tightly. I can see how this can create a crease. Even in a few posts, I've suggested that people not push their eyebrows too high when doing this exercise, but rather to raise them using their face muscles and then pin them in place instead of using fingers to raise them to what may be too high a position. Another side-effect of doing exercises that involve the eyebrows if not balanced out with others is one may get the Neanderthal forehead--or an overbuilt brow ridge that seems to hang over your eyes. So if a bulkiness can develop from exercise, and lines can be formed from exercise, why is it so hard to believe that the line you see wasn't from the exercise? In other words, since we don't see signs of forehead furrows which would clearly indicate raised eyebrows, then how could she raise her eyebrows and only have a crease in one spot and not across the entire forehead? I'm not saying you may not be right, but just pointing out some oddities I see that would make me give the photo the benefit of the doubt--even with your suggestion taken into account.

EthelM wrote:

I don't see any improvement whatsoever in Maria's eyes, and her "before" and "after" photos are the most obviously taken at different angles---her face is tilted downward in her "before" photo, and her head is tilted upward in her "after" photo...and her eyelids actually appear more heavily hooded in her after photo.

Here are Maria's photos again enlarged:

It is very hard to get the angle exactly identical but even without that, IMO Maria's slight difference of angle doesn't take from the fact that her face has had the following changes:

Her eyes much more open--not what you'd see if you were to tilt your head back and still keep a forward focus with your eyes. Try it; you'll see that your lids sort of close and your eyes look smaller. Also the irises of your eyes do seem to disappear into the lower lids when your tilt your head back and continue to look forward while that's not happening here. (Her iris is completely visible) We already established that the wider you open your eyes, the smaller the area of your upper eyelid that will be seen. Finally you say her eyelids droop more in the after photo than in the before? Really? Clearly we see different things--unless droop to you means something other hand "hanging over". In the before photo she has skin hanging over the lid all the way across so that you don't see her lid at all. In the after photo, there's less drooping so that her lid is more exposed. The effect she has is not unlike the one seen here:

So if you don't see a change in Maria's eyes then I suppose you don't see the change in these eyes that went through surgery either. Notice the lighting is different even in these (I suspect) professionally taken photos. But to the discerning eye, there's enough of a change for the photos to be used as examples of how well the surgery can work; just like I see enough of a change in Maria to know that if she keeps this up, she'll never need the surgery since she got that much in only a few months and it only becomes better with time, while surgery results deteriorate with time so that more is needed.

EthelM wrote:

Cecilia's photos are taken from differing distances, with differing photo clarity and with slightly different head position---she is ever so subtley tilted back in her "after" photo. Also, look at how much of her eyeball is covered by her eyelid---(measure the distance between her pupil and the upper lashline) in both photos; her eyelids are more closed in her "after" photo, which gives the illusion of less saggy eyelid skin. Try doing that yourself in the mirror.

I disagree about the tilt you seem to see (I've tried to make the photos the same size for better comparison). If there were a tilt in her head, wouldn't her iris be covered by the lower lid a bit more at the bottom since her focus is still forward? However we see the exact amount of lower part of iris revealed in both the before and after. Perhaps your argument may be that she's letting her eyelids fall slightly so as to show more of the lid. That I could see, but in all seriousness, the photos usually posted are sent in by the clients who have nothing to gain telling tales. They submit them because they notice an improvement that they are so happy with that they can't wait to share, so I don't see why Cecilia would have staged the photos. It's not her program so she had nothing to gain sending fraudulent photos. Anyway, these photos were taken 2 months after she started face exercise and I believe she continued doing face exercises years later...so maybe one day she'll update her photos to show how her upper eyelid looks like.

EthelM wrote:

Carolyn's photos aren't even comparable; they are taken at totally different angles, in different lighting, from differing distances and with different expressions. Her photos aren't useful at all in ascertaining any differences. All in all, I see nothing whatsoever in any of these photos to indicate improvement in the eye area from facial exercise.

OK, here are two of Carolyn's photos side by side. I think they are both taken at from the same angle and unless one is in denial, the improvement in her eyes is as clear as day and night. She had completed hooded eyes at the time she started face exercises at the age of 53 but in her later photo, her eyelids are completely revealed.

The second photo of Carolyn showing the natural eyelift is from her video which can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwfr4PxmFqs&feature=player_embedded

Below is her latest video and while her head is tilted back for most of it, near the end, you do see her bring her chin down and her eyes definitely are not the eyes she had in her fifties: http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/the-brush

In an effort to address the argument most people give to discount face exercise results, namely lighting/camera angle, makeup etc (Ironically you don't hear this same strict criticism when it comes to cosmetic surgery photos...Bias perhaps?), I impromptu took photos of my eyes at different angles and in different light and just as I suspected, my eyes looked better in the low light photos than in the ones that highlighted changes. I even changed the angle of my photos so as to squash that "excuse" people use to doubt the authenticity of face exercises. (You can see that post here).

Another thing to remember is it's not easy for one to put one's photos online to be critiqued. The only confidence people have to put themselves out there is because there is a success story to be told. They are so happy with the improvements that they want to share. I agree the camera doesn't always show what one intends and it's not always easy to see the improvements--heck even I had to have Carolyn reassure me that changes were happening by pointing them out to me in my own face photos when I started her program and when I'd send them to her to ask her if I should go on. Anyway, all the photos I posted were from different face exercise programs and *I* see the changes, and I'm sure I can't be the only one who sees them. I suppose one has to be open-minded--or at least have some experience in their effectiveness to get it Question

*shrug*.

Can you can see the improvement in these at least?

I know this^^ last set of photos shows the eyes taken at different angles but if you look hard enough, you can find pairs of photos you can compare. Like look at the profile photo from 2003 (first one in second row) and compare it with the 2008 photos (first ones in last two rows). The May 08 and the July 08 photos do show slightly different angles from the 2003 one but the exposure of the upper eyelid would not change. It would appear hooded, but it isn't and doesn't. What's more in the July 08 photo her head is looking down but her eyes are sorta looking forward not down, so if anything the angle of her head and the fact that her eyes are looking higher than her face is facing would make the upper lid disappear, but hers is still very visible because it's very exposed after years of face exercises.

Anyway, if you don't see what I see, that's OK, but I just decided to break it down because I do know that even for me, it took some explanations from others before I ever started to discern the subtle changes...and perhaps there might be someone reading this thread who would appreciate the highlights I've made so that they too can start to see the subtleties--even if just to reassure themselves of their own small successes. So this wasn't to beat it into to you but just to help you see what it is I see. But if you still aren't convinced, that's OK. It's all a matter of perception and you can't help what your eyes perceive you or don't.

free skin care · Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:02 pm

Sorry, but I stand by my previous opinion and evaluation. Nothing in your last post gives evidence to contradict what I concluded, for the very same reasons noted in my earlier post. I remain uncertain that the two Asian eye "before" and "after" pics are even of the same woman---the eyebrow arch and tail aren't the same.) By the way, unless the Asian woman who had the upper bleph in your photo series has eyelid inflammation or fluid retention due to another condition, she has had a very poor quality bleph to get such bad results...those results are NOT typical of a well performed upper bleph, not even for an "ethnic" upper bleph. You wrote: <I suppose one has to be open-minded--or at least have some experience in their effectiveness to get it *shrug*. > Ummm, NOPE...anyone who has can see will be able to ascertain whether or not there is an improvement...or not. In fact, an open (or shut) mind is irrelevant. Certainly one doesn't need any "experience" to see a difference in a "before" and "after" photo series...that's just silly! You don't need experience nor an open mind, just eyesight. Edited to add; I just reread your comments, and I'm sorry, but I feel this is a gigantic smoke and mirror trick! First of all, your statement that the brow has nothing to do with the eyelid tells me you lack knowledge about both human facial physiology and the effects of certain cosmetic surgical procedures. The brow most certainly does have something to do with the eyelid; often a browlift will address a saggy upper lid very well, although of course a bleph can excise upper lid skin without affecting the brow. Your claim that the shortened distance between the woman's brow and lid is due to her brow falling doesn't help your cause; are you claiming that in the limited period of time that this subject has seen such miraculous eyelid results that her brow has dropped so very significantly? So now this woman has another aesthetic problem, a fallen brow? Hmmm. Again, in my opinion, this is a load of bs...I caution women to examine these photos carefully before making judgments abut efficacy!!

free skin care · Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:10 pm

EthelM wrote:

Sorry, but I stand by my previous opinion and evaluation. Nothing in your last post gives evidence to contradict what I concluded, for the very same reasons noted in my earlier post. I remain uncertain that the two Asian eye "before" and "after" pics are even of the same woman---the eyebrow arch and tail aren't the same.) By the way, unless the Asian woman who had the upper bleph in your photo series has eyelid inflammation or fluid retention due to another condition, she has had a very poor quality bleph to get such bad results...those results are NOT typical of a well performed upper bleph, not even for an "ethnic" upper bleph. You wrote: <I suppose one has to be open-minded--or at least have some experience in their effectiveness to get it *shrug*. > Ummm, NOPE...anyone who has can see will be able to ascertain whether or not there is an improvement...or not. In fact, an open (or shut) mind is irrelevant. Certainly one doesn't need any "experience" to see a difference in a "before" and "after" photo series...that's just silly! You don't need experience nor an open mind, just eyesight. Edited to add; I just reread your comments, and I'm sorry, but I feel this is a gigantic smoke and mirror trick! First of all, your statement that the brow has nothing to do with the eyelid tells me you lack knowledge about both human facial physiology and the effects of certain cosmetic surgical procedures. The brow most certainly does have something to do with the eyelid; often a browlift will address a saggy upper lid very well, although of course a bleph can excise upper lid skin without affecting the brow. Your claim that the shortened distance between the woman's brow and lid is due to her brow falling doesn't help your cause; are you claiming that in the limited period of time that this subject has seen such miraculous eyelid results that her brow has dropped so very significantly? So now this woman has another aesthetic problem, a fallen brow? Hmmm. Again, in my opinion, this is a load of bs...I caution women to examine these photos carefully before making judgments abut efficacy!!

You are entitled to your opinion, EthelM.
I am amused you call the Asian Bleph I posted bad. Laughing

I suppose for you that subtlety doesn't work, but you prefer people to get a change that is so obvious and that changes their ethnicity somewhat and makes them look mixed. Extreme surgery or nothing at all eh?

If you do a search for Asian Blephs online, the most "natural" looking ones are as subtle as what I posted and look like this:

The idea isn't to announce to the whole world that you got surgery but rather to get a crease that is so natural looking that if one didn't know better they'd swear you had nothing done and that you always had the crease.

When Blephs look like the one below, then that is what I call it BAD surgery coz it doesn't look like the same person at all and it doesn't look natural at all. Everyone can tell work was done. I'm sure her eyes don't resemble any of her relatives now and she looks surprised to those who knew here before. LOL

I suppose some people don't care for the natural look but want a complete transformation, and that may be your preference--which is also your prerogative.

And no, I'm not claiming the subject's brow drooped in the time that her eyelids improved, hence the reason I used the word "catch up". In case you haven't come across that jargon in face exercises, it's what we use to explain when some parts show improvement faster than others. Not all muscles of the face are at the same tone so some respond to exercise faster than others...so while her eyelids improved and made her eyes look more open, her brow is YET to lift so will appear to be lower when in reality it just didn't move while the eyes got a lift. (See why experience in face exercises helps one to follow what's going on? Wink

) But actually simple common sense would tell you that if you got an eye lift without a brow lift, then the relative distance between the two will change. If the eye gets a lift but not the brow, then the distance between the two will shorten. Even someone who has never actually been in a cosmetic surgeon's office can pick this up from watching the procedures on TV: a patient goes in for one procedure then the doctor points out all the extras he'll have to do for the change they want made to be evident. You tickle me saying that I have no knowledge of face anatomy when clearly you seem to be the one who is lacking in that department coz you think the muscles of the eyes and those of the frontalis are one and the same and that one can't tone one without toning the other. Or that a doc cannot operate on one area w/o touching the other.

So let me break this down for you. Here is an eyebrow lift without an eyelid lift:

The raised eyebrows do open the eyes up a bit, but the eyelid doesn't get revealed more; in other words, there's is NO EYELID LIFT when the eyebrow lift is down. Different muscles involved here--and you would know this IF you knew face anatomy! Wink

Actually, because I suspect you don't see what I see in still photos even side by side (coz we seem to have different perception), here's the link to the actual website where the photos are from so you can click back and forth to see the rise in eyebrows but no change in the appearance of the upper eyelid Smile

http://www.asianplasticsurgeryguide.com/beforeafter/browlift1.html

The website that link is from specializes in Asian makeovers and so one would assume that they know what results are considered good. And I see the same subtlety we encountered before:

And here's the link if you want to click back and forth: http://www.asianplasticsurgeryguide.com/beforeafter/eyeworks.html

Another eye surgery to create a crease that was missing in the original eyes--similar to what happens to Asian eyes when they do face exercises:

And once again, here's the link if you want to click back and forth: http://www.asianplasticsurgeryguide.com/beforeafter/desepi1.html

(Incidentally, I just noticed that in all the EYELID LIFT surgeries, the eyes are more open in exactly a similar manner as happens with face exercises. No wonder the results of face exercises are fondly referred to as "a natural facelift"--and the results of surgeries that give the same results as face exercises are consider "more natural looking". Very Happy

)

So clearly beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It seems that for someone like you, unless everything is pulled up and back and the change is drastic, you do not see a change worth writing home about, and so while it may take "eyesight" to see changes as you say, it does take so much more like an understanding of anatomy of the face and some physiology, a logical mind that can actually see that one change doesn't guarantee another, and--whether you want to believe it or not--experience in the field being discussed.

My stating that it takes one who's experienced in face exercises to see what I see is because not only did I notice such subtleties in my own eyes when I was fixing a lower puffing with CFF...but I have also seen the minimal (hardly-there improvements) in people I know prior to the big changes that others notice--which makes me more "sensitive" to insignificant changes. My own experience makes me able to notice the changes no matter how subtle because I've been around the same and know the "journey" it takes to get to where I am. And it's not just me; SeanySeanUK, a face exercise trainer can probably confirm that he is able to help clients see changes they themselves don't see in themselves because he's either walked in their shoes so became familiar with what changes precede the final results or he just has an eye for it because he has seen others go through the same. I mean, even *I* with my 17+ years of face exercises experience didn't realize changes were happening in my face when I started CFF until Carolyn whose program I was using pointed them out to me because she is familiar with the subtle changes that others might miss. And in time I started to see it myself and in retrospect, I feel more enlightened when it comes to spotting changes in faces that I experienced myself. So whether you want to believe it or not, it's a given: with experience comes discernment (and ahem, wisdom).

Oh and it's also a given that an open and shut mind is most certainly not irrelevant. You previously said Carolyn's photos were not worth bothering with so I got you photos that were comparable (and there are many more before photos of hers on her website so you can see that she has had hooded eyes for most of her life but not anymore) yet you still claim that you maintain your previous stance on all the photos I posted. Fine. Guess I'm entitled to my opinion too on whether you've got a closed mind or not, so it makes no sense to discuss this further and we can call this one of those instances where we agree to disagree.

free skin care · Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:52 am

Looking back at the Asian bleph photo I commented on, it does appear that perhaps the photo was taken before the residual swelling had subsided. The new Asian bleph photos you posted look like good work, but surely you too can see the difference between these new photos (well post the swelling stage) and the previous Asian bleph. In the previous Asian bleph, there is still considerable volume in the upper lid, which can be attributed to three likely causes; first, post-surgical swelling, i.e. the after photo was taken too soon after surgery; second, the patient had fatty tissue in the upper lid that wasn't excised in the surgery (in which case I do think it's a bad bleph); third, that the patient suffers from a non-related condition which causes inflammation and fluid retention in the eye area, such as allergies or hypertension.

free skin care · Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:31 pm

EthelM wrote:

Looking back at the Asian bleph photo I commented on, it does appear that perhaps the photo was taken before the residual swelling had subsided. The new Asian bleph photos you posted look like good work, but surely you too can see the difference between these new photos (well post the swelling stage) and the previous Asian bleph. In the previous Asian bleph, there is still considerable volume in the upper lid, which can be attributed to three likely causes; first, post-surgical swelling, i.e. the after photo was taken too soon after surgery; second, the patient had fatty tissue in the upper lid that wasn't excised in the surgery (in which case I do think it's a bad bleph); third, that the patient suffers from a non-related condition which causes inflammation and fluid retention in the eye area, such as allergies or hypertension.

You could be right about that EthelM.... The bold text makes a lot of sense. Or it could be that genetically that's how her eyes are and she didn't want the fatty tissue on upper eyelid (if that's the case) removed...or didn't want to pay for it. I do think that with good surgery, the change should not be one that stands out and had her eyes been changed, folks would've suspected something was done. With just the crease added, I imagine the most someone will say is, "I have never paid attention to your eyes before but you do have a crease while the rest of your family doesn't seem to." I think that's nicer to hear than "Did you do something to your eyes? They look different from how they used to be."

I supposed it could also just be overhang that could be fixed with a brow lift except that wasn't what she wanted done. In this before/after set:

...you can sorta see how in the before photo, there seemed to be some overhang bulge toward the outer corners of her eyes--not as much as the lady you're referring to coz this one is younger--but there is a thick chunk of flesh over her eyes. The brow lift seems to smooth it out a little.

So perhaps the previous lady only wanted the crease, nothing more. I only say that because the way that area looks in the before pics is the same way it looks in the "after" pics so while some swelling maybe to blame, she or the doctor may have wanted to go for as much subtlety as possible while still giving her the crease.

free skin care · Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:15 am

Yes, I did mention in one of my earlier posts that a browlift will also have the effect of lifting the eyelid tissue, without removing eyelid tissue. However, a browlift is a far more involved procedure than an upper bleph, in terms of cost, downtime, potential complications, scarring, etc. If the only concern is excess skin on the eyelid, an upper bleph is by far the better procedure option.

free skin care · Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:20 am

P.S. See the muscling above this woman's left brow? Those muscles caused the drooping outside brow. This woman would have had a good (and the same) result from a Botox browlift instead of surgery, and saved money, post-surgical downtime, and scarring. Even endoscopic browlifts leave small scars and can cause hair loss around the incision site, among other potential side effects. It's obvious from these photos that her brow droop problem was due to muscling and not a more involved issue.

free skin care · Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:52 am

Sorry Nonie but some of those photos were photoshopped by a myopic six year old. Why is the brow lift lady wearing the EXACT same clothing and jewellery with her hair in the exact same position?? Ditto the Asian face exercises/ fake blue eyes lady's hair tendrils?

free skin care · Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:23 am

I agree with Firefox7275 . You just need to look at the last photo to see every hair and every bead of the necklace and earring at the exact same position. Seems impossible to do. Even without the jewelry, the hair proves the photoshop.
I agree with Nonie about face exercises.

free skin care · Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:51 pm

Firefox7275 wrote:

Sorry Nonie but some of those photos were photoshopped by a myopic six year old. Why is the brow lift lady wearing the EXACT same clothing and jewellery with her hair in the exact same position?? Ditto the Asian face exercises/ fake blue eyes lady's hair tendrils?

GOOD CATCH Firefox! Plus, some of the "befores" and "afters" aren't even of the same woman! (The photoshopped Asian lady that I commented about, and anyone else, can still get those browlift/eyelift results with Botox, though!) Very Happy

And Nonie, you are incorrect, you do not need an open mind to differentiate before and after photos; rather one needs to be objective. There is a difference between the meanings of those two words, Nonie. The value of the opinion of a "facial exercise" specialist, someone who profits from books, consultations, and classes, is nil to me...and if that "specialist" needs to point out changes reaped from their programs, it's even more concerning. A plastic surgeon needn't point out changes made after a bleph; those changes are obvious----obvious because they actually exist, unlike the imagined improvements brought by facial exercise. SNAKE OIL!

free skin care · Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:31 pm

EthelM wrote:

Firefox7275 wrote:

Sorry Nonie but some of those photos were photoshopped by a myopic six year old. Why is the brow lift lady wearing the EXACT same clothing and jewellery with her hair in the exact same position?? Ditto the Asian face exercises/ fake blue eyes lady's hair tendrils?

GOOD CATCH Firefox! Plus, some of the "befores" and "afters" aren't even of the same woman! (The photoshopped Asian lady that I commented about, and anyone else, can still get those browlift/eyelift results with Botox, though!) Very Happy

And Nonie, you are incorrect, you do not need an open mind to differentiate before and after photos; rather one needs to be objective. There is a difference between the meanings of those two words, Nonie. The value of the opinion of a "facial exercise" specialist, someone who profits from books, consultations, and classes, is nil to me...and if that "specialist" needs to point out changes reaped from their programs, it's even more concerning. A plastic surgeon needn't point out changes made after a bleph; those changes are obvious----obvious because they actually exist, unlike the imagined improvements brought by facial exercise. SNAKE OIL!

Been reading and trying to keep my mouth shut.. but... and I was going to propose exercising the eyelid, then saw the back and forth going on... Crying or Very sad

So, EthelM, what do you propose? I myself have done quite well with exercising the upper eye lid, in fact, I tried botox for my forehead at one time and it made it "heavy", no lines on forehead but my upper eyelid didn't like it...
I've found that if I do facial exercises without getting carried off, steady but with the norm that less is best, I like the effect,... why do you seem so against it I don't know, but no worries.
I agree that some of the photos sent by Nonie are obvious photo shop, but I also have to agree that maybe there is not enough info on the web about the benefits of facial exercise so it is difficult to find "proof"...the proof is in the pudding! And I find it just enough to actually see Nonie's photos, superb upper eyelids!!! Very Happy

And that aside, please give some useful advice for the upper eye lid lift without it being a surgical operation,... I would be glad to hear what you advise, if not I see no sense in your posts here in this thread... specially if you don't practice facial exercises yourself to see what some of them can do to your facial contours.
Cheers, Anne.

free skin care · Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:53 am

I did try facial excercies, LED, Thermage, creams, botox for the 11's, forhead and crows feet. All temp. tightening at best if at all. Expensive to maintain and does not do ANYTHING to address extra skin on the upper eyelid.
The excercises helped marginally but not enough to achieve the skin tightening I wanted and to loose the extra skin and give a lift.
The botox gave me too much of a deer in the head light look and overdid it in my opinion. I only get the 11's now, much more natural look and I haven't done that in a couple of years. It just makes you look more rested, but doesn't address the extra skin.
My hubby went in for a bleph consult and I ended up doing it. I had an upper and lower to remove fat, extra skin and lower eye sag/bags. The hubby watched and it was simple. I no longer had to hold up the eyelid to put on eyeshadow.
Nothing compares and I mean nothing!
Love, love loved it and have never looked back.
For me, it was the only thing that could achieve the total results only a continual basis.
I still do some face excercises to address lower jaw/face tightening.
The hubby will do his eyes sometime next year! I won't watch.

free skin care · Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:59 am

Anne, I already did mention what treatments will address saggy eyelids. There are very few nonsurgical treatments that work, but the Botox browlift injection technique will temporarily lift the outer portion of the eyelid. A less effective, far more subtle method is to inject filler into the temple area, which sometimes, depending on the patient's facial structure, can slightly raise the outer edge of the eyelid. Truly, the only effective method of lessening slack eyelid skin is to excise it, with an upper bleph. A browlift, either the endoscopic or traditional method, will raise the brow and thus have the effect of pulling up the slack eyelid skin, although technically there remains just as much slack skin as before the browlift, but browlifts are much more involved than upper blephs. My opinion is that there isn't much evidence available of the efficacy of facial exercises simply because facial exercise isn't effective. Not one of the before and after photo sets in this thread is devoid of trickery of some sort---be it differences in lighting, angles, expressions, poor photo clarity or different women altogether and outright photoshopping, and none show evidence of efficacy whatsoever. My conclusion is that facial exercise isn't effective, else there would exist ample evidence of such.

free skin care · Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:46 pm

EthelM wrote:

Firefox7275 wrote:

Sorry Nonie but some of those photos were photoshopped by a myopic six year old. Why is the brow lift lady wearing the EXACT same clothing and jewellery with her hair in the exact same position?? Ditto the Asian face exercises/ fake blue eyes lady's hair tendrils?

GOOD CATCH Firefox! Plus, some of the "befores" and "afters" aren't even of the same woman! (The photoshopped Asian lady that I commented about, and anyone else, can still get those browlift/eyelift results with Botox, though!) Very Happy

And Nonie, you are incorrect, you do not need an open mind to differentiate before and after photos; rather one needs to be objective. There is a difference between the meanings of those two words, Nonie. The value of the opinion of a "facial exercise" specialist, someone who profits from books, consultations, and classes, is nil to me... and if that "specialist" needs to point out changes reaped from their programs, it's even more concerning. A plastic surgeon needn't point out changes made after a bleph; those changes are obvious----obvious because they actually exist, unlike the imagined improvements brought by facial exercise. SNAKE OIL!

Firefox7275 good catch indeed! I remember that being pointed out about Carole Maggio's before after photos too, which is a shame--especially if the surgery really works or the exercises really work. But not all the photos I posted to use as examples are like that. So maybe we could just stick to those?

EthelM I couldn't agree more with the point in bold because people will say anything to get others to buy their BS (eg politicians)! Except I don't know which specialist you are referring to. What's more when you say that a plastic surgeon's changes are obvious, are you speaking from the point of view of one with experience of what they can do because you've had it done? Or are you speaking from what you've witnessed with your own eyes on people you personally know who had work done? Or are you going by what's posted on the cosmetic surgeons' websites? Because if your answer to any of these questions is YES, then welcome to the club--only in my case I am speaking from my OWN experience with face exercises, from that I've witnessed in people I personally know who do face exercises and from what I have also seen on websites on face exercises. (Ironically, unlike most people who opt to do face exercise or get surgery, when I started face exercises I didn't know a single person who had ever done them. I just found Eva's book and the logic made sense so I gave it a shot. In other words, I discovered how effective they are from 100% experience not so much some images that could be photoshopped or praises from a forum). Like you (I'm guessing you are no specialist), I'm no specialist and I do not have a program of my own nor do I sell one so I have nothing to gain from sharing, but I share my own experience with programs I have bought and done and I share the good, the bad, the ugly and the good of face exercises because I love to help others. And I feel confident doing it because I haven't just been doing face exercises for a couple of years but over 20 years and I am still very happy about them.

As for English words and their meanings, "objective" vs "open-minded". Let us look at what the words mean:

Quote:

objective
Adjective
a. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: an objective critic.
b. Based on observable phenomena; presented factually: an objective appraisal.

open-minded
Adjective
having a mind receptive to new ideas, arguments, etc.; unprejudiced

While the words may not be exact synomyms, they do go hand-in-hand. Unless one is open-minded, one cannot be objective so I still stand by my previous statements. To be open-minded and objective, one must not have any bias and must be willing to look at evidence given and not through the lenses of any preconceived ideas, and then make conclusions from what is presented.

I don't care about cosmetic surgery but I can admit when results are good and very natural looking. I do know people who will never admit that surgery results are good no matter how good they are; they will always look fake to them. Likewise, I have noticed that some people who are in favor of going under the knife will always be in denial about clearly good results achieved through face exercises. These naysayers tend to nitpick at every little thing which in a way does give me a thrill to see coz clearly, the results must be so good they are hard to beieve. Very Happy

Anyway, I don't have anything to gain sharing what I do share (since I don't own a program or work for one), except the satisfaction of having paid forward a good thing--since there's no way I could ever give back to those to whom I owe the success I've had with face exercises. And every now and then I will read a happy story of gratitude and success from someone who decided to take the leap of faith and try the face exercise programs I've recommended or that others like Aprile whose results are awesome too has sang praises of. And this feedback makes it all worth it for me to keep sharing.

I guess what the photo-shopped pics do is teach us that sometimes the proof is in the pudding...not in what you see or read online. (I recently posted a thread about how some so-called "natural facelift" instructor used photos of results not from her program to advertise her program. Mad

) So it may take actually going out on a limb to try the method that seems more convincinng to you, be it surgery or exercises, and let that experience be your teacher. But whatever you do, it's good to do your research very well so you don't make a choice you will regret.

free skin care · Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:04 pm

EthelM wrote:

And Nonie, you are incorrect, you do not need an open mind to differentiate before and after photos; rather one needs to be objective. There is a difference between the meanings of those two words, Nonie. The value of the opinion of a "facial exercise" specialist, someone who profits from books, consultations, and classes, is nil to me...and if that "specialist" needs to point out changes reaped from their programs, it's even more concerning. A plastic surgeon needn't point out changes made after a bleph; those changes are obvious----obvious because they actually exist, unlike the imagined improvements brought by facial exercise. SNAKE OIL!

As a qualified exercise professional (body not face) I disagree. Postural distortions and technique faults in my clients are often blindingly obvious to me, but not to them or their 'experienced' training partner. Not one of my long term partners have noticed that I have one buttock lower than the other, despite being fairly intimately acquainted with my naked form. Nor have my best friend nor mother, both of whom see me partially clothed on shopping trips. Laughing

Client issues are not invented to profiteer: I made a conscious decision not to set up my own PT business but to remain in salaried employment instead. Of course some facial exercise 'specialists' are in it for the money - just like some dermatologists - and of course some are peddling snake oil. But to dismiss all practitioners is narrow minded IMO.

free skin care · Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:42 pm

EthelM-I was only listing the treatments that I HAVE tried.
I do know there are many more out there, just stating the road I traveled that led to my bleph. Smile

If anything else had worked for me, I would not have had the surgery. I just wanted something more permanant. My results were so incredibly natural, no one had any idea except the hubby. But that is why I chose that surgeon, his references and before and afters were honest and natural.

free skin care · Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:46 pm

It is an absolute fact that no amount of exercise will return skin back to its "normal" position after it has been excessively stretched. For example, loose skin as a result of excessive weight loss - it must be surgically removed.

I'm sure that facial exercises can be useful in keeping the face trim and taught if started at an early age. But I don't believe that exercises will snap back the droopy eyelid skin of a mature age person in a reasonable period of time. Whereas eyelid surgery is a quick and easy fix - instant gratification if you like!

free skin care · Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:53 pm

AnnieR, I was repying to ATester (also named Anne) and her query to me, below:
<And that aside, please give some useful advice for the upper eye lid lift without it being a surgical operation,... I would be glad to hear what you advise, if not I see no sense in your posts here in this thread... >

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