How to get smooth and "poreless" legs?
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free skin care · Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:51 pm

Does anyone know or recommend a product that could help me make my legs smooth and "poreless"? Even after I shave my legs -- which is not really often as I don't really wear shorts -- and it's soft to touch but you can still see the pores/hair follicles. I've been diligent with exfoliating my legs and sometimes I would even use a glycolic pad (20%) on my legs, I can still see the unsightly "pores"/"circles" on my legs Sad

free skin care · Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:08 pm

Legs have few sebaceous glands so tend to be very dry; there is no single magic product. Avoid shower gels that contain harsh sulphate surfactants and over-exfoliating (no beaded scrubs or pads!). Instead try epilation plus body lotion such as Amlactin (lactic acid hydrates and exfoliates) or CeraVe cream (helps replenish the skin barrier with nature identical lipids). Also be sure your diet contains plenty of essential fatty acids, especially those from oily fish.

free skin care · Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:17 pm

Firefox7275 wrote:

Legs have few sebaceous glands so tend to be very dry; there is no single magic product. Avoid shower gels that contain harsh sulphate surfactants and over-exfoliating (no beaded scrubs or pads!). Instead try epilation plus body lotion such as Amlactin (lactic acid hydrates and exfoliates) or CeraVe cream (helps replenish the skin barrier with nature identical lipids). Also be sure your diet contains plenty of essential fatty acids, especially those from oily fish.

Cerave Moisturizing Cream Ingredients* :
Water (Purified), Glycerin, Ceteareth 20, Capric/Caprylic Stearic Triglyceride, Behentrimonium Methylsulfate/Cetearyl Alcohol, Cetearyl Alcohol, Ceramide 3, Ceramide 6 11, Ceramide 1, Hyaluronic Acid, Cholesterol, Petrolatum, Dimethicone, Potassium Phosphate, Dipotassium Phosphate, Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate, Disodium EDTA, Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Phytosphingosine, Carbomer, Xanthan Gum
*From http://www.drugstore.com/cerave-moisturizing-cream/qxp162034

Is Behentrimonium Methylsulfate (highlighted above) a "sulphate surfactant" which should be avoided?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:56 pm

I have the same problem! I can shave, and pretty much still have the little black dots right after. As if i hadn't shaved in a day.

I tried waxing, but because the hair grows in different cycles (and it can take months to catch up) you never get all of them at once, and you still see those "pores" or little hair dots from the hair just at the surface, that the wax couldn't get to. It sucks. I envy those girls with smooth, even legs. lol

I will look into what Firefox just said. Worth a try. And by the way, I think by sulfates are "Sodium Lauryl Sulfate" or "Sodium Laureth Sulfate" ingredients like that.

free skin care · Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:51 pm

Try waxing. You need to go every 4 weeks for about 4 months in a row to get all the hairs on the same growing cycle. They will feel smooth and waxing makes the hair grow in finer so less noticeable hair follicles.

free skin care · Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:52 pm

Thanks for all the information!
Hate to say this, but I'm glad I'm not the only suffering from this. Solidarity!
I will also look into waxing -- although I don't really shave (I always wear pants or tights...). I will also look into epilation plus body lotion and also stop with the scrubbing. I had no idea that should not be doing that :S

free skin care · Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:57 pm

I thought I was the only one with big pores on legs:) I dont think theres much that will help though:( Even when I wax the pores are still there.

free skin care · Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:08 pm

yvy1 wrote:

I will look into what Firefox just said. Worth a try. And by the way, I think by sulfates are "Sodium Lauryl Sulfate" or "Sodium Laureth Sulfate" ingredients like that.

Yes: the two above (sometimes referred to as SLS and SLES) plus ammonium lauryl sulphate and ammonium laureth sulphate. Those four are by far the most common, you might see others but the naming is generally three words one of which is sulphate! For general information sulphates are found in the majority of shampoos, shower gels, hand soap, face wash and even toothpaste! Hopefully most do not come into contact with your legs. Laughing

free skin care · Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:41 am

Lacy53 wrote:

Firefox7275 wrote:

Legs have few sebaceous glands so tend to be very dry; there is no single magic product. Avoid shower gels that contain harsh sulphate surfactants and over-exfoliating (no beaded scrubs or pads!). Instead try epilation plus body lotion such as Amlactin (lactic acid hydrates and exfoliates) or CeraVe cream (helps replenish the skin barrier with nature identical lipids). Also be sure your diet contains plenty of essential fatty acids, especially those from oily fish.

Cerave Moisturizing Cream Ingredients* :
Water (Purified), Glycerin, Ceteareth 20, Capric/Caprylic Stearic Triglyceride, Behentrimonium Methylsulfate/Cetearyl Alcohol, Cetearyl Alcohol, Ceramide 3, Ceramide 6 11, Ceramide 1, Hyaluronic Acid, Cholesterol, Petrolatum, Dimethicone, Potassium Phosphate, Dipotassium Phosphate, Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate, Disodium EDTA, Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Phytosphingosine, Carbomer, Xanthan Gum
*From http://www.drugstore.com/cerave-moisturizing-cream/qxp162034

Is Behentrimonium Methylsulfate (highlighted above) a "sulphate surfactant" which should be avoided?

I also would like information on this, as I use Cerave!

Firefox, can you help out with Lacy's question?

free skin care · Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:47 pm

rileygirl wrote:

I also would like information on this, as I use Cerave!

Firefox, can you help out with Lacy's question?

I already have??

"Yes: the two above (sometimes referred to as SLS and SLES) plus ammonium lauryl sulphate and ammonium laureth sulphate. Those four are by far the most common, you might see others but the naming is generally three words one of which is sulphate! For general information sulphates are found in the majority of shampoos, shower gels, hand soap, face wash and even toothpaste!"

free skin care · Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:12 pm

Firefox7275 wrote:

I already have??

"Yes: the two above (sometimes referred to as SLS and SLES) plus ammonium lauryl sulphate and ammonium laureth sulphate. Those four are by far the most common, you might see others but the naming is generally three words one of which is sulphate! For general information sulphates are found in the majority of shampoos, shower gels, hand soap, face wash and even toothpaste!"

Sorry, Firefox. I guess I misunderstood what you bolded above since I didn't consider this Behentrimonium Methylsulfate/Cetearyl Alcohol 3 words, and it was not one of the 4 that you mentioned.

free skin care · Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:31 pm

rileygirl wrote:

Sorry, Firefox. I guess I misunderstood what you bolded above since I didn't consider this Behentrimonium Methylsulfate/Cetearyl Alcohol 3 words, and it was not one of the 4 that you mentioned.

I think you are still misunderstanding. My apologies if it was my YES that confused matters, perhaps my post would have made more sense if I said exactly instead? That compound is two ingredients, four words, none of which are sulphate, so it is not a sulphate surfactant. The word has to be sulphate not xxxsulphate or sulphatexxx.

I explained the naming system so people could recognise sulphates for themselves when in the store; my intelligent mother missed them on aqueous cream she purchased to soothe her sulphate-induced rash! AND the pharmacist let her purchase it which proves you can't trust even the pros. Shock

free skin care · Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:04 am

Firefox7275 wrote:

I think you are still misunderstanding. My apologies if it was my YES that confused matters, perhaps my post would have made more sense if I said exactly instead? That compound is two ingredients, four words, none of which are sulphate, so it is not a sulphate surfactant. The word has to be sulphate not xxxsulphate or sulphatexxx.

I explained the naming system so people could recognise sulphates for themselves when in the store; my intelligent mother missed them on aqueous cream she purchased to soothe her sulphate-induced rash! AND the pharmacist let her purchase it which proves you can't trust even the pros. Shock

Thank you! (and yes, you are right, I was misunderstanding still!).

Yes, unfortunately, you cannot trust the pros all the time; even they make mistakes!

Thanks again for clearing this up for me. Very Happy

free skin care · Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:44 pm

Firefox7275 wrote:

rileygirl wrote:

Sorry, Firefox. I guess I misunderstood what you bolded above since I didn't consider this Behentrimonium Methylsulfate/Cetearyl Alcohol 3 words, and it was not one of the 4 that you mentioned.

I think you are still misunderstanding. My apologies if it was my YES that confused matters, perhaps my post would have made more sense if I said exactly instead? That compound is two ingredients, four words, none of which are sulphate, so it is not a sulphate surfactant. The word has to be sulphate not xxxsulphate or sulphatexxx.

I explained the naming system so people could recognise sulphates for themselves when in the store; my intelligent mother missed them on aqueous cream she purchased to soothe her sulphate-induced rash! AND the pharmacist let her purchase it which proves you can't trust even the pros. Shock

The only problem is Behentrimonium Methylsulfate has the following synonyms:

Behentrimonium methosulfate
Behenyl trimethyl ammonium methosulfate
Docosyltrimethylammonium methyl sulphate

Molecular Formula: C26H57NO4S (in each case).

It may also be identified as:

docosyl(trimethyl)azanium; methyl sulfate
N,N,N-trimethyldocosan-1-aminium methyl sulfate

http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=157846&loc=ec_rcs

I think you need a degree in chemistry to figure all this out! But I think if you have severe sensitivity to topical sulfates/sulphates you should follow the advice of an expert (such as a pharmacist/chemist) when possible. I'm not sure your shortcut to identifying sulfates/sulphates is valid. Unlike shampoo or facial cleansers which are short-term contact and then rinsed off, the Cerave cream remains on the skin surface for a longer period of time.

free skin care · Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:55 pm

I'm not sure intelligence is what's required, but just becoming informed. Smile

I didn't realize that simple dryness could be responsible for the flaws on my legs, so will take better care of them from now on.
I'm confused about not scrubbing though - do you mean just for very dry skin? I use a Japanese Salux towel on my body now and the exfoliation seems only to have improved the condition of my legs.

By the way, I was under the mistaken impression that non-soap cleansere would leave oils on my hands which wouldn't be acceptable when cleaning my contacts. Its not the case and since switching, the very mild roughness & peeling I thought I may have inherited from my dad (eczema) has cleared up, almost completely.
So thanks!

free skin care · Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:24 pm

Lacy53 wrote:

The only problem is Behentrimonium Methylsulfate has the following synonyms:

Behentrimonium methosulfate
Behenyl trimethyl ammonium methosulfate
Docosyltrimethylammonium methyl sulphate

Molecular Formula: C26H57NO4S (in each case).

It may also be identified as:

docosyl(trimethyl)azanium; methyl sulfate
N,N,N-trimethyldocosan-1-aminium methyl sulfate

http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=157846&loc=ec_rcs

I think you need a degree in chemistry to figure all this out! But I think if you have severe sensitivity to topical sulfates/sulphates you should follow the advice of an expert (such as a pharmacist/chemist) when possible. I'm not sure your shortcut to identifying sulfates/sulphates is valid. Unlike shampoo or facial cleansers which are short-term contact and then rinsed off, the Cerave cream remains on the skin surface for a longer period of time.

If you have a sensitivity to sulphate surfactants, contact time is less relevant than you would expect. For example my atopic eczema flares from shampoo bubbles running down my arm which clearly are rinsed away immediately. Furthermore
"Volunteers who do not have eczema applied aqueous cream to their arm twice a day, leaving it on for 10 minutes, for 4 weeks. The effects were then measured using laboratory tests - comparing the skin ‘treated’ with aqueous cream to adjacent ‘untreated’ skin. The research team measured the comparative thickness of the outer layer of the skin (the stratum cornea) and tested for transepidermal water loss. Overall the areas that had been ‘treated’ were 12% thinner than the untreated areas. There was also an average 20% increase in water loss through the thinner ‘treated’ areas."
http://www.eczema.org/aqueous_cream.html
Note that aqueous cream is 1% SLS in an emollient base.

Cosmetic products for sale in the US and the EU are supposed to follow a standardised naming system for the ingredients, to avoid exactly this confusion. The alternate names are likely on that link because PubMed includes abstracts of research papers going back decades and from all over the world. But by all means check at the pharmacy, I wholeheartedly wish people would do so more often! As I've said before it's two decades since I trained.

If you would prefer a slightly more technical answer, the 'bad' sulphates are anionic surfactants - the ingredient you mention is a cationic surfactant AKA an emulsifier. But that doesn't help you in Walmart, does it? Question

"Cationic Surfactants
Quaternary Ammonium compounds:used to provide conditioning, some detergency, emulsion stabilization:
Behentrimonium chloride
Behentrimonium methosulfate (gentler) ...

About the Author
Tonya McKay holds a B.S. in Chemistry and an M.S. in Polymer Science."
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/ingredients-commonly-found-in-hair-care-products

HTH.

free skin care · Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:13 pm

Firefox7275 wrote:

If you have a sensitivity to sulphate surfactants, contact time is less relevant than you would expect. For example my atopic eczema flares from shampoo bubbles running down my arm which clearly are rinsed away immediately. Furthermore
"Volunteers who do not have eczema applied aqueous cream to their arm twice a day, leaving it on for 10 minutes, for 4 weeks. The effects were then measured using laboratory tests - comparing the skin ‘treated’ with aqueous cream to adjacent ‘untreated’ skin. The research team measured the comparative thickness of the outer layer of the skin (the stratum cornea) and tested for transepidermal water loss. Overall the areas that had been ‘treated’ were 12% thinner than the untreated areas. There was also an average 20% increase in water loss through the thinner ‘treated’ areas."
http://www.eczema.org/aqueous_cream.html
Note that aqueous cream is 1% SLS in an emollient base.

I have seen you cite the Guy study on Aqueous Cream before. I looked on Pubmed for the abstract, and didn't notice any mention of 10 minute exposure so I am somewhat skeptical of that information (I will try to dig up the actual article and read it for myself). I am also wary of the overall conclusion, since it is generally thought (by the experts at CIR) that SLS is a skin irritant at a concentration of 2% or more and the longer these ingredients stay in contact with the skin, the greater the likelihood of irritation. As you said, the Guy study is based on a limited number of subjects so maybe the results should be interpreted cautiously.

Do you use Cerave Cream Firefox? I do from time to time, and notice that it stings when applied to injured or irritated skin. I have no idea why this happens and I don't have any dermatological conditions (just dry legs in the winter). I can't imagine using Cerave on eczema prone skin though.

free skin care · Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:29 am

Does anyone know if the M2 Body Refinisher would be any helpful with achieving beautiful legs?

free skin care · Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:41 pm

Maybe if you posted the ingredient list someone could tell you.

My legs are coming to life! Just from paying particular attention when exfoliating, a little vitamin c on the past nicks, and coconut oil. Summertime here I come!

I've never been one for pampering myself with lotions/oils before, but I'm hoping to make a habit of it.

free skin care · Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:19 pm

Lacy53 wrote:

I have seen you cite the Guy study on Aqueous Cream before. I looked on Pubmed for the abstract, and didn't notice any mention of 10 minute exposure so I am somewhat skeptical of that information (I will try to dig up the actual article and read it for myself). I am also wary of the overall conclusion, since it is generally thought (by the experts at CIR) that SLS is a skin irritant at a concentration of 2% or more and the longer these ingredients stay in contact with the skin, the greater the likelihood of irritation. As you said, the Guy study is based on a limited number of subjects so maybe the results should be interpreted cautiously.

Do you use Cerave Cream Firefox? I do from time to time, and notice that it stings when applied to injured or irritated skin. I have no idea why this happens and I don't have any dermatological conditions (just dry legs in the winter). I can't imagine using Cerave on eczema prone skin though.

Funnily enough aqueous cream stings me and has done since childhood and AQ has just worsened my mother's facial rash (dermatitis/ also sulphate sensitive). Oooooh please report back if you can dig out the full study, be helpful to have that source verified or refuted. There are a couple of other interesting looking studies on aqueous cream, looks like the medical community is interested.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21443526
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21564067
When I have active dermatitis even very dilute solutions irritate, just shampoo bubbles running down my arm. Call me slow but it took YEARS to work out the trigger!! Rolling Eyes

Interesting that you find the same with CeraVe, will keep my eyes peeled for others that have had the same. It's quite widely used/ recommended after acid peels on beauty forums, perhaps people are not reporting stinging as they think it is part of the experience. Do urea creams work any better than CeraVe for your legs? I don't use CeraVe because it is not available here and contains ingredients I try to avoid so currently using a natural product containing lanolin.

AFAIK the only pharmacy ceramide product we have over here is Balneum Cream, but I limit recommending that because I don't know of anyone (real life or online) who has used it! I have this ceramide complex on order which I will probably add to a lotion I know my skin doesn't react to, before attempting a full DIY cream. http://www.makingcosmetics.com/Ceramide-Complex-p328.html
Will definitely try it on broken and irritated skin and report back if anything interesting or concerning occurs.

free skin care · Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:46 am

LoriA wrote:

Maybe if you posted the ingredient list someone could tell you.

My legs are coming to life! Just from paying particular attention when exfoliating, a little vitamin c on the past nicks, and coconut oil. Summertime here I come!

I've never been one for pampering myself with lotions/oils before, but I'm hoping to make a habit of it.

I really like those sugar scrubs that have oils in them- I like the deep steep ones.
I have the body shop mango scrub and it actually dries out my skin??

I usually wear shorts year round as I wear dance shorts to my classes!

I actually never thought about the pores on my legs, for me my issue is more brusing very easily and then having those marks take forever to go away...

free skin care · Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:01 am

Ottawa Shopper wrote:

I actually never thought about the pores on my legs, for me my issue is more brusing very easily and then having those marks take forever to go away...

Easy bruising can sometimes be helped with diet modification. You are likely doing most of this already ... Vitamin K is made for us by the beneficial bacteria in our gut, so an occasional course of freeze-dried form can be helpful, along with ensuring you are 'feeding' them plenty of soluble fibre (whole oats, pot barley, pulses, fruit). Protein little and often, including iron/ B12 rich sources. Limit sugar and refined white carbs BUT be aware that low carb diets have been linked to increased bruising.

free skin care · Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:12 am

Ottawa Shopper wrote:

I actually never thought about the pores on my legs, for me my issue is more brusing very easily and then having those marks take forever to go away...

Have you had blood work checked, Ottawa Shopper? I also have easy bruising and marks that take forever to go away (though surprisingly for me the rosehip oil I am using is actually helping the marks disappear quicker!) and that is when I had blood work and found out I have an autoimmune condition.

free skin care · Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:02 am

Firefox7275 wrote:

Ottawa Shopper wrote:

I actually never thought about the pores on my legs, for me my issue is more brusing very easily and then having those marks take forever to go away...

Easy bruising can sometimes be helped with diet modification. You are likely doing most of this already ... Vitamin K is made for us by the beneficial bacteria in our gut, so an occasional course of freeze-dried form can be helpful, along with ensuring you are 'feeding' them plenty of soluble fibre (whole oats, pot barley, pulses, fruit). Protein little and often, including iron/ B12 rich sources. Limit sugar and refined white carbs BUT be aware that low carb diets have been linked to increased bruising.

Thanks for the info!
I know for me I bruise easily because I have a problem with my blood being too thin.
-"they" (doctors) have not figured out what it is from though.
it's not serious enough to do anything-but if I even get a paper cut I am stuck holding my finger 1 hour....

I can't entirely do low carb as when I did try for a few days I felt like crap.
I notice it too much if my blood sugar drops- esp if I do any sports I always have to eat something after a while.

Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:23 am

Also be sure your diet contains plenty of essential fatty acids, especially those from oily fish.

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