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DrJ
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Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:25 pm      Reply with quote
There is a confusing array of new active ingredients out there, making claims left and right. Let's together construct a list, then rate the evidence for each (claims, how does it work, does that make sense, etc). Once we sift through, it will be a resource for others who come here for information.

So if you want to add something to the discussion, name that ingredient, some reference to what it claims to do (or even just a link), whether you have tried it & results, and any other pertinent information you may have. And your opinion, if you have one. The rest of us will pile on (good naturedly, of course).
Firefox7275
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Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:19 pm      Reply with quote
Define new please! Surely most novel actives are going to have limited evidence supporting their efficacy, so this could end up a very negative thread ... ??

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rileygirl
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Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:23 pm      Reply with quote
I would like your thoughts on 2 ingredients that I see mentioned a lot.

1. Aloe vera. Claims to build collagen. From the reading I did, they were talking wound repair and I still question if that is the same as repairing a wrinkle. (See this thread for links and discussion on this already. PG 2 of the thread will provide the links.)

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=43880&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=aloe+vera&start=25

2. Hyaluronic acid. Dr. Pickart does not like this ingredient and he thinks it wets the outer skin proteins, which damages the skin barrier. (Reverse Skin Aging, 2nd edition, pg 53 - if you don't have his book, this information is on the skinbiology website if you care to look.)

Oops, looks like I goofed. You wanted new actives. Sorry. Still if you have an opinion on the above, I would appreciate it.
DrJ
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Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:27 pm      Reply with quote
Maybe we don't need to restrict to time. Maybe anything that's popular, not too obscure. We can include classics (cu peptides, etc). The goal is to compile a list, a table if you will, where we compress lots of comparative info into one spot. I don;t think we can do a table here, but I could set us all up on google docs for that part, with all the discussion here.
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Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:32 pm      Reply with quote
I'm up for a discussion on aloe vera, Rileygirl, I find the current research interesting. Very Happy

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erg
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Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:56 pm      Reply with quote
Ditto on the Aloe Vera.

There seems to be a lot of misinformation (see this thread: http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=36280&highlight=aloe)

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Firefox7275
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Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:19 pm      Reply with quote
TOPICAL ALOE
Leaving out all the wound healing references already posted, in no particular order and all up for being ripped to shreds .... Just don't expect me to justify why I saved the links until I have reread them myself! Laughing

Aloe Vera: A Short Review (2008)
Includes mechanism of actions for various properties and is full text.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2763764/
Acemannan stimulates gingival fibroblast proliferation; expressions of keratinocyte growth factor-1, vascular endothelial growth factor, and type I collagen; and wound healing (2009)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19372635
Aloe vera: Nature's soothing healer to periodontal disease (2011)
Full text
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3200013/?tool=pubmed

ORAL ALOE
Effect of Aloe vera preparations on the human bioavailability of vitamins C and E (2005)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16323295
Dietary Aloe Vera Supplementation Improves Facial Wrinkles and Elasticity and It Increases the Type I Procollagen Gene Expression in Human Skin in vivo (2009)
Full text
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2883372/?tool=pubmed
Aloe vera oral administration accelerates acute radiation-delayed wound healing by stimulating transforming growth factor-β and fibroblast growth factor production (2011)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21396624


ALOE IN VITRO
Evaluation of antioxidant potential of aloe vera (Aloe barbadensis miller) extracts (2005)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14664546
Influence of Aloe polysaccharide on proliferation and hyaluronic acid and hydroxyproline secretion of human fibroblasts in vitro (2010)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20226148
In vitro study of the PLA2 inhibition and antioxidant activities of Aloe vera leaf skin extracts (2011)
Full text
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3045348/?tool=pubmed

MISC FOR KEEN FOLKS
Not scientific, some very dodgy information combined with verifiable stuff. Needs a lot of trawling through and cross checking IIRC.
http://wholeleaf.com/aloeverainfo/aloeverapolysaccharide.html
http://wholeleaf.com/aloeverainfo/aloeverahealingproperties.html
http://www.aloevera-juice-benefits.com/wrinklereducingaloegel.html

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rileygirl
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Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:21 pm      Reply with quote
Ok then, yes, include copper peptides, but the GHK and the 2nd generation. I am using copper peptides (the SkinSignals cream, which includes both 1st and 2nd generation) and the GHK cream. I like the feel of both of these on my skin, but it is way too soon to see any visible results. (sorry my time is limited with work and school, so see this thread for a ton of links and already had discussion. http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=37951&highlight=copper+peptides+science)
DrJ
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Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:32 pm      Reply with quote
Yes to cu-peptides.

I think aloe vera is a great place to start. Tons of evidence that it has superb effects, not just skin. Polyphenols, similar to green teas, many mechanisms of action. antioxidants, etc.

Why don't we spend a little time looking athe literature & discussing., In addition to Firefoxes links, let me a few from recent medical literature.Sorry if they are not easily digested. We can summarize later.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3261067/?tool=pubmed

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3263051/?report=printable

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3141305/?report=printable

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702677/pdf/11130_2009_Article_107.pdf

Not sure I am allowed yet to paste links. If I disappear you will know why.
fawnie
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Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:05 pm      Reply with quote
Heyhey!
I would also like to get to the root of the HA matter re: Dr Pickart's claim about it "wetting the skin barrier" ...and why that would be a bad thing, if so.

Here is my nomination for Ingredient of the Day:

Name: HELIOGUARD 365
Company: TRI-K Industries, Inc.

It is a liposomal preparation of mycosporine-like amino acids (MAA) from the red alga Porphyra umbilicalis which absorbs UV-A light.

Pharmacogn Rev. 2011 Jul-Dec; 5(10): 138–146.
doi: 10.4103/0973-7847.91107
PMCID: PMC3263047
Copyright : © Pharmacognosy Reviews
Mycosporine and mycosporine-like amino acids: A paramount tool against ultra violet irradiation
Saurabh Bhatia, Arun Garg, K. Sharma,1 S. Kumar,1 A. Sharma,2 and A. P. Purohit2

"Mycosporine is a common name used to describe a collective group of water soluble nitrogenous metabolites associated with light-stimulated sporulation in terrestrial fungi.[8] They have strong UV-absorption maxima at 310 nm and were chemically identified by Favre-Bonvin et al.[7] Most of the sunscreen products present in the market are primarily limited to UVB and short wavelength UVAII (315–340 nm). Only a few compounds are broad-spectrum UVA filters. However, some of these compounds are problematic in terms of photostability and cross stability with other sunscreen agents.[9] In view of the fact that the UVA band constitutes about 5% of the solar spectrum at the Earth's surface, whereas UVB only makes up to 0.5%, there is an urgent need of novel broad-spectrum and photo stable compound. Algal derived sunscreening compounds hold great promise for discovery and development of new pharmaceuticals. Algal biochemicals are gifts from nature as they are renewed each year through the energy from the sun. MAAs are typical representatives of these botanical gifts universally present in marine organisms."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3263047/

Two Sunscreens that I know of, SunTegrity and Osmosis Shelter (new formula), use this already in conjuction with zinc oxide, as well as one that Im working on making. Think it has merit and how much?
rileygirl
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Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:10 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:

I think aloe vera is a great place to start. Tons of evidence that it has superb effects, not just skin. Polyphenols, similar to green teas, many mechanisms of action. antioxidants, etc.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3261067/?tool=pubmed

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3263051/?report=printable

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3141305/?report=printable

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702677/pdf/11130_2009_Article_107.pdf



Ok. My question was not on the benefits of aloe vera, but on its supposed collagen building. And, I thought we were talking Topical, not internal ingestion.
From yours studies:

1. The present study shows the scavenging activity of the whole leaf extracts of A. ferox in ethanol, methanol, acetone and aqueous extracts. The activity was high in ethanol, acetone and methanol extracts, but low in aqueous medium, indicating their antioxidant potential. The observed results suggest further analyses to confirm its prophylactic effect in the treatment of free radical-mediated diseases. Most antioxidant activities depend on the amount of the phytochemicals present in the plants. Although the contents of most phytochemicals evaluated are not very high but synergistically boost the antioxidant activity of the whole leaf extracts of A. ferox. Thus the plant had potent antioxidant properties to curtail progression of radical related diseases and thereby give credence to the traditional usage of A. ferox extract.

So, basically it is a good antioxidant. Nothing here about collagen building, unless I missed something and please point out if i did.

2. The reputable Aloe vera or Aloe barbadensis has been scientifically proven for all forms of burn, be it radiation, thermal, or solar. It has also been demonstrated that it has a prophylactic effect if used before, during, and after these skin damaging events. Clearly, the plant is mainly used for its soothing and cooling effect; however, the plant is useless if used at less than 50% and it is recommended that it is used at 100% to be sure of any beneficial effect. The polysaccharides, mannose-6-phosphate, and complex anthraquinones all contribute synergistically to the benefits of this material. The natural chemical constituents of Aloe vera can be categorized in the following main areas: Amino acids, anthraquinones, enzymes, lignin, minerals, mono- and polysaccharides, salicylic acid, saponins, sterols, and vitamins. Aloe vera not only improved fibroblast cell structure, but also accelerated the collagen production process. Aloe vera is a uniquely effective moisturizer and healing agent for the skin (both human and animal!!!)

One little blurb on collagen production taken from this book: Barcroft A, Myskja A. Aloe Vera: Nature's Silent Healer. London: BAAM Publishing Ltd; 2003.

3. The test results indicate that the moisturizers improve the skin hydration and appearance on daily use. Significant improvement was seen after the 3rd week of short period of study in the skin conductivity and the method employed seems to be easy and efficient. The statistical analysis of the experimental data was carried out by one-way analysis of variance (ANOVA) and the differences were considered as statistically significant at 95% confidence level. It was found that the formulations containing wheat germ oil and Aloe vera extract produced higher skin hydration as compared to the formulations containing them separately. The mechanism predicted was humectants mechanism along with the occlusive layer formation on the skin by the formulations.

So, it is a good moisturizer and can improve the look of skin due to its hydrating the skin. Nothing here about collagen either?

4. Supplement that mainly focuses on green tea with a propriety blend of "fruits, vegetables, and aloe concentrate".

Not interested in supplementation. Again, I thought we were talking Topically applied skin care ingredients. And, I am interested specifically in the collagen production.

Bottom line just from my quick reading is that aloe is an antioxidant and a moisturizer. So far, nothing impressive here as there are a lot of good antioxidants and moisturizers out there!
DrJ
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Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:54 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:

Bottom line just from my quick reading is that aloe is an antioxidant and a moisturizer. So far, nothing impressive here as there are a lot of good antioxidants and moisturizers out there!


OK, so let's focus only on evidence for other benefits than moisturizing, and only topical.

Wound healing depends on building new matrix. Lets start with that literature, and some in vitro evidence.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20361881
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9507902
http://www.jcimjournal.com/en/showAbstrPage.aspx?articleid=jcim20100310
http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jos/58/12/58_643/_article
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9854430
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19409414
rileygirl
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Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:24 am      Reply with quote
Thank you. I will check our your (new) and FF's links as time allows.

One question, I am guessing by your remark about wound healing that these next links focus on aloe vera and wound healing? So, that brings me back to my original question. Is a wrinkle the same as a wound to you, Dr.J, and if so explain. I am not convinced a wrinkle is a wound and would appreciate your input.
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Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:17 am      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
Thank you. I will check our your (new) and FF's links as time allows.

One question, I am guessing by your remark about wound healing that these next links focus on aloe vera and wound healing? So, that brings me back to my original question. Is a wrinkle the same as a wound to you, Dr.J, and if so explain. I am not convinced a wrinkle is a wound and would appreciate your input.


That's a great question. A wrinkle is like a wound in many ways, but not all. The reason wound healing as a paradigm can be helpful is that many of the things that go on in the maxtrix (increased collagen production, elastin synthesis, rearchitecting, growth)during wound healing are also strategies to diminish wrinkles, even though the etiology is different. Wrinkles are brought about by damage, but it is slow, repeated, chronic damage - repair - scarring rather than acute. Wrinkles have an intrinsic and extrinsic component, wounds are basically extrinsic.

Wrinkles though have elements that are not present in wounds, so wounds cannot tell the whole story. Wounds (acute) don't blunt rete pegs, or cause collagen cross links from glycation, or snarl elastin.

So, bottom line is no, not exactly the same, but similar enough that the overlap can inform us. And because wrinkles have a long time frame as opposed to wounds, wounds become a much simpler laboratory model. Not perfect, though. In fact, I wish there was a better model. Now if only fruit flys (average life span 17 days) developed wrinkles we could use them to further our study.
7Destiny
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Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:08 am      Reply with quote
In contrast to Dr. Pickart, Pharmacist Suzy Cohen loves hyaluronic acid! In a recent book, she was lamenting why doctors don't give patients a clue on its benefits for eyes, skin, joints...here is a similar run down in a newspaper column

http://www.marconews.com/news/2009/apr/14/ask-pharmacist-hyaluronic-acid-may-help-your-skin-/

I have taken NeoCell ha for three years and have experienced all of these. I mention this brand because its real ha, not a lab made synthetic, so better absorbed.
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Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:22 am      Reply with quote
7Destiny wrote:
In contrast to Dr. Pickart, Pharmacist Suzy Cohen loves hyaluronic acid! In a recent book, she was lamenting why doctors don't give patients a clue on its benefits for eyes, skin, joints...here is a similar run down in a newspaper column

http://www.marconews.com/news/2009/apr/14/ask-pharmacist-hyaluronic-acid-may-help-your-skin-/

I have taken NeoCell ha for three years and have experienced all of these. I mention this brand because its real ha, not a lab made synthetic, so better absorbed.


You are comparing apples with oranges, oral HA is not necessarily the same as topical nor injectable HA. Did your pharmacist refer to any published papers? Also where has the idea that natural HA is better than lab made (or indeed vice versa) come from please? People keep posting this but never supply any evidence. AFAIK it is the molecular weight that dictates whether the HA is absorbed through the skin or gut.

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Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:06 pm      Reply with quote
Since I've been experimenting with making my own skin products, one of the things I've realized about skin care is that it is the physical properties of ingredients that matter more than the chemical properties. In other words, the formulation is what really makes the difference. You can pile so many actives into a product, but what matters first is the physical effect the formulation has on the skin barrier/matrix, chemical activity second.

If you reckon that your skin cells are a bunch of little factories, I think of skin care as being the lube for the machinery rather than ingredients to produce the final product. It's like the difference between coaxing your skin to "behave" on its own vs forcing it to behave with tons of actives with obscure chemical properties, a lot of times this just leads to breakouts in my case.

Also, I always thought that antioxidants were primarily meant to protect your skin from environmental stress, but I've found that actives that really control lipid oxidation (esp for those with oily skin) makes all the difference in the world in terms of saggy haggard looking skin. I recall a member posting about how bad lipid oxidation is for the skin and it's really really true! Antioxidants are like the janitors of the skin factory, they keep things clean and swept up. To be honest my skin was the worst when I was experimenting with lots of natural oils and washing my skin less often and letting it get oily, etc. in an effort to keep it hydrated.
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Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:09 pm      Reply with quote
Very interesting coconut...
thanks for sharing

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Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:19 pm      Reply with quote
Coconut wrote:
Since I've been experimenting with making my own skin products, one of the things I've realized about skin care is that it is the physical properties of ingredients that matter more than the chemical properties. In other words, the formulation is what really makes the difference. You can pile so many actives into a product, but what matters first is the physical effect the formulation has on the skin barrier, chemical activity second.

If you reckon that your skin cells are a bunch of little factories, I think of skin care as being the lube for the machinery rather than ingredients to produce the final product. It's like the difference between coaxing your skin to "behave" on its own vs forcing it to behave with tons of actives with obscure chemical properties, a lot of times this just leads to breakouts in my case.

Also, I always thought that antioxidants were primarily meant to protect your skin from environmental stress, but I've found that actives that really control lipid oxidation (esp for those with oily skin) makes all the difference in the world in terms of saggy haggard looking skin. I recall a member posting about how bad lipid oxidation is for the skin and it's really really true! Antioxidants are like the janitors of the skin factory, they keep things clean and swept up. To be honest my skin was the worst when I was experimenting with lots of natural oils and washing my skin less often and letting it get oily, etc. in an effort to keep it hydrated.


You make some excellent points, Coconut. I have noticed that product "look and feel" (and odor) are often what makes the sale. Instant gratification and all that (we are humans). But if we limit our choices on that basis (barrier function, e.g. a "great moisturizer") we will miss out on those actives that take time to do their magic.

I cannot argue with the primacy of good skin hydration, don't get me wrong. But if you have that plus actives that affect collagen & elastin 8-12 weeks into a marathon with consistent usage, so much the better. Color changes (e.g. age spot disappearance) can take almost as long.

Best of all possible worlds- - demand both?

Which antioxidants do you favor based on the lipid peroxidation aspect?
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Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:22 pm      Reply with quote
Back to "the list"

Do we need to spend more time with aloe vera?
Can we add it to the list as an active?
Can we agree on moisturization, antioxidant, and collagen stimulation properties?

Want to suggest more actives?
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Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:23 pm      Reply with quote
I think we are good on aloe vera.

How about copper peptides... 1st generation vs second

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Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:41 pm      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
Back to "the list"

Do we need to spend more time with aloe vera?
Can we add it to the list as an active?
Can we agree on moisturization, antioxidant, and collagen stimulation properties?

Want to suggest more actives?


Before agreeing to aloe vera on the list, can we discuss this research?

http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/?objectid=84BA2E41-F1F6-975E-74710B3802656C9C

This one may be more appropriate because:

- it discusses topical application on healthy skin;
- it includes exposure to sunshine;
- it is conducted by the (US) National Toxicology Program;
- it appears to report gender differences;
- it proves some balance to the positive conclusions of other studies cited thus far.

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Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:20 pm      Reply with quote
lacy53,

This is a pure toxiciology study. Its not looking for benefits, only for toxicity. It focuses on aloe-emodin in particular, which is only one component of aloe vera extract, and is in fact a carcinogen in large doses.

It show a weak effect in enhacing photocarcinogenesis. But it has some good company. Including stuff you put on your skin to shelter it from the the sun! Oxybenzone (a component of some sunscreens) is suspected owing to its skin penetrating qualities and its production of free radicals. Titanium dioxide and zinc oxide nanoparticles are on the same list. Even Vitamin A, our skin's best friend for anti-aging from decades past, is on the list.

I never know quite what to make of these toxicology studies. I also know that hairless mice are fragile when it comes to skin cancer (which is why they make a good model).

I suggest we do with this info the same as we do with suspect sunblocks. Use "with caution" - don't make it your cornerstone, make sure you have other botanicals on board that have the opposite (antiphotocarcinogenic) effects.
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Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:08 am      Reply with quote
Well to be honest I would like to see more toxicology studies on the actives people put on their skin. It's amazing what people can put on their skin if they think it could preserve their youth or reverse ageing.
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Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:06 am      Reply with quote
DrJ wrote:
Back to "the list"

Do we need to spend more time with aloe vera?
Can we add it to the list as an active?
Can we agree on moisturization, antioxidant, and collagen stimulation properties?

Want to suggest more actives?


No, we don't need to spend any more time on aloe vera. I will agree on moisturization and antioxidant properties, not on collagen stimulation properties for wrinkles. You, yourself, stated that a wrinkle is not a wound. They may be similar but before I would put aloe vera on a list of actives, I still would want to see studies does exclusively for wrinkles. I would call aloe vera a nice ingredient that one would want to include in a product, but I would not call it an "active". To me, an "active" is something proven, and in my mind the only thing that has stood the test of time (so far) is A.

But, yes let's move on from aloe vera. Please address your thoughts on hyaluronic acid. Some people think this is a great ingredient, and yet Dr. Pickart feels it can do damage. I don't understand the skin wetting, to be honest with you, but wonder if it is similar (or maybe the same?) as how Dr. Obagi feels moisturizers on a regular, consistent basis are bad for the skin. Your thoughts?

ETA: Thank you, BTW, for your reply on the wounds/wrinkles!
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Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:25 am
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