Dermapen – new micro-needling device
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free skin care · Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:51 am

Just saw a post about this on the New Beauty blog. It looks very interesting. Not sure if the average person will be allowed to buy it, or if it is only for doctors. Thoughts?

http://www.dermapen.com/

ETA: The only thing that bothered me is that they used a photo from Environ Skincare as one of their before/afters!

free skin care · Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:07 am

Sarah Vaughter from owndoc.com (dermarolling supplies) wrote a review of a similar microneedling device... I thought it was interesting:

http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/derma-pen-review/

"A few years ago, we investigated the idea of creating our own “automatic” microneedling device.

Because an ordinary tattoo machine is too harsh on the skin, as it deeply penetrates the skin 50 or 60 times a second (depending on your mains frequency). So our idea was to design a machine that would needle much slower (at least ten times slower, a bit like like a sewing machine) and have a set of needles instead of just one. After some experimentation and brainstorming, we came to the conclusion that this was not an easy task. Practical design considerations required a needling speed equal to the mains frequency (50 or 60 Hz). But that would be too fast for optimal results in our opinion, and moreover, it would require enormous power if you’d want to drive a dozen needles into the skin simultaneously. A slow-moving, powerful needling machine with multiple needles would cost a lot of money and be heavy to handle, so we abandoned the idea.

However, there have been a lot of such devices offered for sale lately, so we bought one and tested it.

This is not the “Dermapen” brand but a similar device. This device claims to needle to a maximum depth of 1 mm, but we found it nearly impossible to penetrate the skin. We had to press hard onto the skin at the maximum power setting to get some redness occurring, and that only on the inside of the wrist and other such places. The device, with a suggested retail price of hundreds of dollars, did not come with a European power plug or even a user manual. Its manufacturer spent a great deal of effort making the thing look expensive – it comes in a fancy case – but the device itself is of poor quality. Rotating knobs have a stuck feeling to them and the device feels like a cheap plastic gadget. The chrome looking part is made of plastic. The switch halfway the cord does something to the speed or power of the device – we were unable to ascertain exactly what, as on no setting it properly penetrated the skin.

We think that the concept is interesting but we will not purchase other such devices to test because firstly, we’d have to pay hundreds of dollars per model and secondly, we do not believe that the other models have a significantly better performance. The problem is that in order to drive twelve needles through the skin, you’d need a lot of force. To do this fifty times a second requires a lot more force than a light, thin device can muster. So these devices, in spite of the needle lengths of up to 2 mm, don’t actually push their needles that deep into the skin. The pen-needler would have to be much heavier for the electromagnet to be able to be that strong.

Spare needle heads are very expensive, so needling costs about the same as with a dermaroller or dermastamp. One spare needle head has a suggested retail price that comes close to the price of the dermastamp we sell. They are sold in bulk to companies like us for a couple of dollars a piece, but as it is in this business, most vendors are only interested in cold, hard cash and will charge outrageous prices, as usual.

One of our concerns with such devices is that they may tear the skin, when not expertly operated. When working as advertised, its 12 needles are “down” into the skin about 50% of the time, 25% quite deeply. Now, with a derma roller, you roll the needles in and out, but with the derma pen, you move the needle head sideways, so the needles will be moved sideways while they are still inside your skin, with no way to get out of the skin until the needle head is pulled upwards again by the machine. This means that if you move the machine too fast, it will cause micro-tearing (lateral shearing) of the skin. And if you move too slowly, it will make too many holes in the skin (50 Hz x 12 needles = 600 a second in Europe and 720 a second in countries with a 60 Hz mains frequency such as the United States). So you need to know exactly how fast to move the device, but that depends on your mains frequency, the make and model of the device, the selected needle length and the electromechanical particulars of the way the needle head moves in and out (the “duty-cycle”).

If anyone has purchased a different model that actually works as advertised and does not cost an arm and a leg, we’d be happy to hear about it so we can add it to our assortment. What we are looking for is pinpoint bleeding on the 1.5 or 2 mm setting without the need to push down hard, and preferably a speed that can be regulated to far below the mains frequency. We don’t think such devices exist yet. Please – if you mention brands or post links – only do so when you have actually tried it, the product is available for sale to ordinary consumers and has a needle length of at least 1.5 mm.

Conclusion: Interesting concept but not yet ready for prime time. We’ll definitely will start selling them when we can find one that actually works, and when it’s reasonably affordable (this one would have to cost $300,- retail). At the moment we decided we can’t resell anything that’s available for bulk wholesale purchase (all these devices are made in China) because we are certain that a significant percentage of customers would want their money back. The manufacturer promised that there will be a user manual soon, but dismissed our complaint that the device was too feeble for its intended purpose.

free skin care · Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:46 am

Thank you for posting this, Luminosity. Definitely an interesting read from Owndoc! (And I had no idea that it would be that expensive!)

free skin care · Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:53 am

I know! I am starting to really enjoy my dermarolling (which is crazy), so looks like at least for now, I will keep that up. My roller is just a .5mm but I'll bump that up when I feel the time is right.

free skin care · Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:08 pm

Thanks for posting Rileygirl and Luminosity! I don't see how the Dermapen can affect collagenesis in the dermis whilst causing less epidermal damage, less bleeding and being as effective as laser or peels as claimed. If you check the studies section they are actually on tattooing, drug delivery and burn wounds (which is empty) not the Dermapen for skin remodelling.

I have one of Sarah Vaughter's new 1.5mm three line rollers and have only used it the once, but was able to use it in a much more targeted way than my regular dermaroller (1mm). I doubt I would be able to cope with a 1.5mm regular roller without a topical anaesthetic, but the three line version was quite manageable even in the lip area. If you had the three liner or a dermastamp, I wouldn't think you would need a Dermapen.

free skin care · Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:59 pm

Firefox7275 wrote:

Thanks for posting Rileygirl and Luminosity! I don't see how the Dermapen can affect collagenesis in the dermis whilst causing less epidermal damage, less bleeding and being as effective as laser or peels as claimed. If you check the studies section they are actually on tattooing, drug delivery and burn wounds (which is empty) not the Dermapen for skin remodelling.

I have one of Sarah Vaughter's new 1.5mm three line rollers and have only used it the once, but was able to use it in a much more targeted way than my regular dermaroller (1mm). I doubt I would be able to cope with a 1.5mm regular roller without a topical anaesthetic, but the three line version was quite manageable even in the lip area. If you had the three liner or a dermastamp, I wouldn't think you would need a Dermapen.

Firefox, I know I asked you this before, but I'm having trouble remembering... how often are you using the 1mm dermaroller? And where are you using the 1.5mm?

It's hard to believe you wouldn't need some sort of numbing cream for the 1mm, but I can already tell the .5mm is getting easier each time...

free skin care · Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:45 am

Luminosity wrote:

Firefox, I know I asked you this before, but I'm having trouble remembering... how often are you using the 1mm dermaroller? And where are you using the 1.5mm?

It's hard to believe you wouldn't need some sort of numbing cream for the 1mm, but I can already tell the .5mm is getting easier each time...

I use the regular 1mm roller every two to six weeks, concentrating on the forehead but I have done (smile) lines in the past. Eyes water somewhat but I just go quickly and it's no worse than having a bikini wax. Have used the three line 1.5mm directly on the forehead lines, a couple of facial scars and smile lines. Again eyewatering but nowhere near as bad as I feared even tho I was going over areas that had already been rolled with the 1mm and were therefore a little inflamed. I am not a closet masochist: if I had smoker's lip lines I would crack out the Emla, I imagine that would be an unpleasant experience otherwise. Shock

free skin care · Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:46 am

Firefox7275 wrote:

I don't see how the Dermapen can affect collagenesis in the dermis whilst causing less epidermal damage, less bleeding and being as effective as laser or peels as claimed.

I don't know how that would be possible, either, but I think this device would be great if it worked. I liked how you could choose the depth in 1 device, rather than having to have multiple dermarollers.

free skin care · Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:17 am

Thanks so much rileygirl for posting about this new device (thanks, as always!)

I have shot off an email to the company for more details.

At first blush, I am wondering how it can be as effective when it mentions less pain, less bleeding, etc. - that's the whole point, lol.

This is part of the experience.

Anyway, curious to see what they say. If any of you also write to them, would love to hear what they tell you.

Can I ask where people are purchasing their Emla these days?

Thanks, BFG

free skin care · Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:48 am

BFG,

I read about this the other day at owndoc.com and here's what Sarah had to say:

"Due to lobbying of Big Pharma, we are not allowed to sell EMLA from Europe (we're based in Europe) so the only place you can get it is in your local pharmacy.

It's for sale in nearly every pharmacy, worldwide, also in Europe.

But it's ridiculously expensive for no reason - the ingredients are cheap. But AstraZeneca has the monopoly on this patented product.."

And also:

"In Europe, EMLA is for sale OTC in the pharmacy but it is expensive. In the US, you need a prescription for EMLA as far as I know but I think they sell 5% lidocaine OTC. Ask for a topical numbing cream with Lidocaine."

I went to Amazon and they sell the Lidocaine for $49.95 (yikes). Hopefully a little goes a long way!

free skin care · Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:55 am

rileygirl wrote:

I don't know how that would be possible, either, but I think this device would be great if it worked. I liked how you could choose the depth in 1 device, rather than having to have multiple dermarollers.

Be interesting to hear what DrJ has to say on the website, since we have Sarah Vaughter's opinion.

free skin care · Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:54 pm

When I first read the link on the Dermapen I thought it looked like a good idea as I hate to roll as it hurts me too much.

But, thanks to Luminosity's posting of owndoc's review, I won't need to delve any further into that one!!

Luminosity wrote:

BFG,

I read about this the other day at owndoc.com and here's what Sarah had to say:

"Due to lobbying of Big Pharma, we are not allowed to sell EMLA from Europe (we're based in Europe) so the only place you can get it is in your local pharmacy.

It's for sale in nearly every pharmacy, worldwide, also in Europe.

But it's ridiculously expensive for no reason - the ingredients are cheap. But AstraZeneca has the monopoly on this patented product.."

And also:

"In Europe, EMLA is for sale OTC in the pharmacy but it is expensive. In the US, you need a prescription for EMLA as far as I know but I think they sell 5% lidocaine OTC. Ask for a topical numbing cream with Lidocaine."

I went to Amazon and they sell the Lidocaine for $49.95 (yikes). Hopefully a little goes a long way!

I had bought some EMLA from owndoc when I first started rolling, but had noticed she wasn't selling it anylonger. I was able to get my derm to write a script for it and got it filled at my local pharmacy. The funny thing, though, is the derm's nurse had to call after my request to find out 'why' I needed the Elma. I told her it was for a cosmetic needling procedure. That seems to satisfy my doc, since she called the Rx in!!

Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:08 am

The real dermapen does all of these things and more. It actually works - pierces the skin at any depth from 0.02-2.5mm. It has adjustable speeds and amazing results. I have seen 1 being used and it definitely causes the punctures required for skin tightening, rejuvenation, sorting acne scars, other scars, stretch marks and much more. The Dermapen is a clinic only device though and can only be used by doctors and nurses – but this is to keep the patients in the best possible hands. If you were to try anything this is the one. There are loads of videos on YouTube showing the Pen in action and you can see this for yourself. I hope this helps.

free skin care · Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:16 pm

Foxe, can you tell me how well the EMLA works? I haven't moved up to a 1.5 mm because I'm kind of scared... The .5mm across my forehead is intense but elsewhere, I know I could do more.

If the EMLA works well, it might be worth a script... Or at the least I should get the 5% lidocaine...

Thanks!

free skin care · Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:30 pm

Hi Helen,

I noticed this is your first post. Could you please let us know whether you have any affiliations with the product?

Thank you, BFG

Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:45 pm

I wish I would be able to buy the "derma pen".I am already using the derma roller, but I think the derma pen is more effective.

free skin care · Thu May 03, 2012 2:09 pm

Is Dermapen similar to Dermastamp: http://shop.owndoc.com/p-180/dermastamp15.html

Question

free skin care · Fri May 04, 2012 8:17 am

Luminosity

Quote:

It's hard to believe you wouldn't need some sort of numbing cream for the 1mm, but I can already tell the .5mm is getting easier each time...

I'm not a masochist by any stretch of the imagination, but I do use the 1.5 mm without any numbing agent. The first two times were horrible, but it does get easier. The later sessions seem to also be far deeper and more effective i.e. more blood [ practice I suppose and knowing what to expect, the pain is not quite that bad ] Nothing pleasant about the process. No pain no gain. I'd rather a deep roll every 6 weeks to product penetration rolls twice a week. They are just as irritating and time consuming.

free skin care · Fri May 04, 2012 11:19 am

DragoN wrote:

Luminosity

Quote:

It's hard to believe you wouldn't need some sort of numbing cream for the 1mm, but I can already tell the .5mm is getting easier each time...

I'm not a masochist by any stretch of the imagination, but I do use the 1.5 mm without any numbing agent. The first two times were horrible, but it does get easier. The later sessions seem to also be far deeper and more effective i.e. more blood [ practice I suppose and knowing what to expect, the pain is not quite that bad ] Nothing pleasant about the process. No pain no gain. I'd rather a deep roll every 6 weeks to product penetration rolls twice a week. They are just as irritating and time consuming.

I totally agree... I would much rather it be every 6 weeks. Actually I think the Lyapko roller I've been using will help a lot with a deeper dermaroll session... It's conditioning my skin and my nerve endings to not be so sensitive. I think Keliu mentioned this once.

Would very much love not to use the numbing cream because I am concerned my skin will react negatively. So glad to hear it is possible to go "au natural" (I have no idea how to spell that Laughing

).

Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:47 pm

Barefootgirl wrote:

This month's issue of Harpers Bazaar gives it a glowing review over lasers.

I want my own.

BFG

free skin care · Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:02 pm

Does anyone own a iBeauty Pen from ibeautymachine? The one with a german motor.

http://www.ibeautymachine.com/motorized-micro-needle-system-12-needle-rechargeable.html

Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:02 am

Hello.

Im asking the same question too.

Does anyone own the dermapen on
Ibeautymachine ? With the german motor?

Thx

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