Vitamin c and green tea question....
EDS Skin Care Forums Forum Index » Skincare Tools & Do-It-Yourself Skincare

Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:32 pm

I have read that vit c and green tea should not be combined in one serum, but what if they are in separate products? Can they be layered? I am specifically interested in making one of kassy's vitamin c serum and would also like to try Replenish CF which is a green tea treatment. Other things I currently use are: skin biology lacsal in the am and copper peptides at night (which is why i can't use the vitamin c at night). Thanks so much!

Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:24 am

Hi, as far as I know, green tea extract is most effective in an acid environment. Thats why I put it in my vit c serum, and not in a NIA/NAG serum. Would be interested in opinion of experienced DIYers, though.

free skin care · Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:01 am

Latina_Peru wrote:

Hi, as far as I know, green tea extract is most effective in an acid environment. Thats why I put it in my vit c serum, and not in a NIA/NAG serum. Would be interested in opinion of experienced DIYers, though.

There was quite a long discussion about Green Tea and Vitamin C together and diverse opinions on the following link (7 pages) most have decided to use a chelator to be on the safe side. An acid environment is fine for Green Tea, and Vitamin C and Green Tea work in synergy when drunk together so one would see the benefit of the 2 together for skin as well.

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?tid=36231

Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:34 am

i just read the ingredients of the replenix cf and it includes tetrasodium edta. is this a chelator?

free skin care · Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:39 am

weluvnik wrote:

i just read the ingredients of the replenix cf and it includes tetrasodium edta. is this a chelator?

Yes it is.

free skin care · Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:06 pm

15% LAA, 0.5% Ferulic acid, 1.0 Vitamin E , EGCG 90% @ 5%

In combination of free radical scavenger and metal chelator, the chelator decreases the oxidation rates by inhibiting metal-catalyzed oxidation; resulting in, fewer free radicals generated in the system. Inactivation of antioxidants via termination reaction or participation in autoxidation occurs to a lesser extent in such situations. The concentration of antioxidant, available to scavenge free radicals, will always be greater at a given time than when no metal chelator is present. The combination of chelator and radical scavenger decreases free radical generation and increases radical scavenging potential . Synergistic activity has been observed in the mixtures of natural tocopherols and citric acid. The synergistic effect of this mixture is caused by the chain-breaking ability of tocopherols and metal chelation of citric acid .

E. N. Frankel, Lipid Oxidation, The Oily Press, West Ferry, Dundee, 1998, pp. 13, 79,
115, 129, and 167.

E. A. Decker, in C. C. Akoh and D. B. Min, eds., Food Lipids: Chemistry, Nutrition and
Biotechnology, 2nd ed., Marcel Dekker, Inc., New York, 2002, p. 517.

Epigenetic and genetic mechanisms contribute to telomerase inhibition by EGCG.
Green tea polyphenol (-)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate treatment of human skin inhibits ultraviolet radiation-induced oxidative stress.
Protective effects of EGCG on UVB-induced damage in living skin equivalents.
Treatment of green tea polyphenols in hydrophilic cream prevents UVB-induced oxidation of lipids and proteins, depletion of antioxidant enzymes and phosphorylation of MAPK proteins in SKH-1 hairless mouse skin.
Fucoidan inhibits UVB-induced MMP-1 promoter expression and down regulation of type I procollagen synthesis in human skin fibroblasts
Sclerotium rolfsii scleroglucan: the promising behavior of a natural polysaccharide as a drug delivery vehicle, suspension stabilizer and emulsifier.
Ferulic Acid Stabilizes a Solution of Vitamins C and E and Doubles its Photoprotection of Skin
Topical ascorbic acid on photoaged skin. Clinical, topographical and ultrastructural evaluation: double-blind study vs. placebo.
Scleroglucan: A Versatile Polysaccharide for Modified Drug Delivery]

LAA 15%
Vit E oil 1%
Ferulic Acid 0.5%
Sclerotium gum 2%
Sea Emollient 28%
H20 40.5%
Oil 5%
EGCG 90% -5%
1N NaOH/ ETOH -2%
Citric acid 0.5 %
phenoxy 0.5%

1. Weigh and measure your ingredients.
2. Ferulic acid into solution with NaOH/ ETOH, stir till dissolved = white
3. LAA into water, stir till dissolved, may have some light dust, don't panic.
4. EGCG into LAA and Water Stir, Will turn a honey color tan/ brown
5. Citric acid into mix, stir/ blend
6. Sclerotium gum , mix and blend
7. Sea emollient, blend
8. Vit E, Oil of choice + Phenoxy. Blend.
9. Adjust pH to 3.2 or under.
10. Done

My CT Honey Mix..light and silky.

Quote:

I have read that vit c and green tea should not be combined in one serum,

Potentially problematic, but the above has two chelators in there and one is in there at several multiples...I think I'm safe. Wink

free skin care · Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:08 pm

DragoN wrote:

15% LAA, 0.5% Ferulic acid, 1.0 Vitamin E , EGCG 90% @ 5%

In combination of free radical scavenger and metal chelator, the chelator decreases the oxidation rates by inhibiting metal-catalyzed oxidation; resulting in, fewer free radicals generated in the system. Inactivation of antioxidants via termination reaction or participation in autoxidation occurs to a lesser extent in such situations. The concentration of antioxidant, available to scavenge free radicals, will always be greater at a given time than when no metal chelator is present. The combination of chelator and radical scavenger decreases free radical generation and increases radical scavenging potential . Synergistic activity has been observed in the mixtures of natural tocopherols and citric acid. The synergistic effect of this mixture is caused by the chain-breaking ability of tocopherols and metal chelation of citric acid .

E. N. Frankel, Lipid Oxidation, The Oily Press, West Ferry, Dundee, 1998, pp. 13, 79,
115, 129, and 167.

E. A. Decker, in C. C. Akoh and D. B. Min, eds., Food Lipids: Chemistry, Nutrition and
Biotechnology, 2nd ed., Marcel Dekker, Inc., New York, 2002, p. 517.

Epigenetic and genetic mechanisms contribute to telomerase inhibition by EGCG.
Green tea polyphenol (-)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate treatment of human skin inhibits ultraviolet radiation-induced oxidative stress.
Protective effects of EGCG on UVB-induced damage in living skin equivalents.
Treatment of green tea polyphenols in hydrophilic cream prevents UVB-induced oxidation of lipids and proteins, depletion of antioxidant enzymes and phosphorylation of MAPK proteins in SKH-1 hairless mouse skin.
Fucoidan inhibits UVB-induced MMP-1 promoter expression and down regulation of type I procollagen synthesis in human skin fibroblasts
Sclerotium rolfsii scleroglucan: the promising behavior of a natural polysaccharide as a drug delivery vehicle, suspension stabilizer and emulsifier.
Ferulic Acid Stabilizes a Solution of Vitamins C and E and Doubles its Photoprotection of Skin
Topical ascorbic acid on photoaged skin. Clinical, topographical and ultrastructural evaluation: double-blind study vs. placebo.
Scleroglucan: A Versatile Polysaccharide for Modified Drug Delivery]

LAA 15%
Vit E oil 1%
Ferulic Acid 0.5%
Sclerotium gum 2%
Sea Emollient 28%
H20 40.5%
Oil 5%
EGCG 90% -5%
1N NaOH/ ETOH -2%
Citric acid 0.5 %
phenoxy 0.5%

1. Weigh and measure your ingredients.
2. Ferulic acid into solution with NaOH/ ETOH, stir till dissolved = white
3. LAA into water, stir till dissolved, may have some light dust, don't panic.
4. EGCG into LAA and Water Stir, Will turn a honey color tan/ brown
5. Citric acid into mix, stir/ blend
6. Sclerotium gum , mix and blend
7. Sea emollient, blend
8. Vit E, Oil of choice + Phenoxy. Blend.
9. Adjust pH to 3.2 or under.
10. Done

My CT Honey Mix..light and silky.

Quote:

I have read that vit c and green tea should not be combined in one serum,

Potentially problematic, but the above has two chelators in there and one is in there at several multiples...I think I'm safe. Wink

LMAO as I think of what I went through, trying to explain that in just plain English... OY Vey!

free skin care · Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:07 am

In plain English tetrasodium EDTA is not the best choice chelator for that application. It is also known to have potential carcinogenic effect.

Citric acid is effective at 0.01% in combination with vitamin E. Alginin present in algae extracts is extremely effective, however due to the seasonal changes which will affect the content, it remains an unknown.

To each their own.

free skin care · Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:47 am

DragoN wrote:

In plain English tetrasodium EDTA is not the best choice chelator for that application. It is also known to have potential carcinogenic effect.

Citric acid is effective at 0.01% in combination with vitamin E.

Actually I use "disodium EDTA" which is the best choice in an acidic environment.. (The 'carcinogenic effect' you refer to is a moot point for me since I am neither inhaling, taking it orally, or using it topically in the amounts the studies test at..)

I love and use "citric acid" in several formulas, but it is a weak chelator when it comes to scavenging metal ions. Personally I wouldn't chance it, when the result would be a pro oxidant serum..

I totally agree, "to each their own"... Very Happy

free skin care · Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:01 pm

I was just wondering if it's only the green tea extract which can cause trouble with vitamin C or other botanical extracts pose the same problem... I have started adding a chelator in all my DIY, just in case.... I also use disodium EDTA as most of my serums are on the acidic side....

Also, does this apply to ascorbic acid only or to other forms of vitamin C too, like MAP, Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate etc..

Thank you v much

free skin care · Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:35 pm

daler wrote:

I was just wondering if it's only the green tea extract which can cause trouble with vitamin C or other botanical extracts pose the same problem... I have started adding a chelator in all my DIY, just in case.... I also use disodium EDTA as most of my serums are on the acidic side....

Also, does this apply to ascorbic acid only or to other forms of vitamin C too, like MAP, Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate etc..

Thank you v much

Since you are using the EDTA in most of your serums you are covered on those in regards to your first question.

I have not used any MAP I use LAA and add Tetra C to my oil blend, Mixing the powder (EGCG) with any oil did not work well for me, but possibly someone else had a way to solve that. Mine just sat in the oil and felt yuck IMO.

free skin care · Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:03 pm

Daler,
Contrary to popular misconception, citric acid is a strong metal chelator. Fortunately not all metals are created equally "evil". Fe2+ is protective. Cu2+, key element in enzyme mediated cascades. Algae extracts that I prefer contain an unquantified amount of alginin, very potent chelator, metal ions are in various extracts at the ppm level.

MAP and metal ions, not the best combination.

AA2G is stable to metal ions. Also greater pH range of use. Stable in emulsion.

TetraC, is of no interest to me. Same with EGF, Renovage and numerous others.

Quote:

Mixing the powder (EGCG) with any oil did not work well for me

Not soluble in oil.

free skin care · Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:13 pm

DragoN wrote:

Quote:

Mixing the powder (EGCG) with any oil did not work well for me

Not soluble in oil.

I know DragoN, did research when I bought my first batch a few years ago, I just had a silly urge to try a tiny amount in a small bottle of oils for grins. I figured maybe someone had made an emulsion with oil and water, personally I couldn't be bothered. Laughing

ETA: couldn't be bothered as I had too many things that had to be taken care of, of a personal nature.

free skin care · Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:19 pm

DragoN wrote:

Daler,
Contrary to popular misconception, citric acid is a strong metal chelator. Fortunately not all metals are created equally "evil". Fe2+ is protective. Cu2+, key element in enzyme mediated cascades. Algae extracts that I prefer contain an unquantified amount of alginin, very potent chelator, metal ions are in various extracts at the ppm level.

Thank you DragoN. Which algae extract do you use and where could I get it from?

Also, I read somewhere that alpha lipoic acid chelates metals too, is this true?

Any reason why tetra C is of no interest to you? I thought that was the most stable form of vitamin C! Thanks

free skin care · Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:44 pm

Algae of preference,1) Sargassum polyphyllum 2) Nereocystis Luetkeana. Laminaria japonicas will do as well as several others. Don't bother with the Algaehyaluron or whatever it's called...make it yourself. Various online retailers carry the algae extracts. Take your pick.

ALA= yes.

http://www.pharmaclinix.com/media/Ascorbyl_tetraisopalmitate.pdf
http://www.jn.nutrition.org/content/122/4/871.full.pdf

Based on the study itself, Tetra remains of no interest. Flawed design. Inconclusive study. A known and an unknown combined and then quantified does not equate to the results of the unknown. Makes for great marketing though. Not my problem, I don't use it.
One could combine dessicated camel dung with 10% LAA....and show increased collagen...
INCI: Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride,Camelus dromedarius extract, agua, L ascorbic acid,
INCI: Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride (and) Phoenix Dactylifera (Date) Seed Extract Rolling Eyes

They bare a striking resemblance, of the two..I vote the Camelus dromedarius extract composition.

The second study...far more intriguing. Next to MAP. However has greater range in formulation and stable to metal ions.

Apple stem cell extract of the rare swiss variety. Will not rejuvenate my epidermis and communicate nothing but the draining of my wallet. Pass. But you should read the write up that sells that bunk. Blasted it two years ago. They threw up an even more sciencey arguement,never ending junk science. Botaderm, another of the wonderspew variety.

Unfortunately, DIY ingredients have gone the road of the camel dung train as well. Renovage anyone?

Know your actives:
1) % Standardization ofactive component
2) pH tolerance
3) solubility
4) Clinically effective levels

*n.b. Weigh your ingredients.

Standard deviation +/- 0.02 grams is one variable, ignorance is another.

free skin care · Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:54 am

Thank you DragoN!

I add ALA and seakelp bioferment in my DIY! but in any case i ll add the other cheltors too..

Renovage anyone?? lol, I have it in my refrigerator! never added it in my DIY... now I have learnt to avoid all the latest crap at lotioncrafters as they just keep coming!!! Sticking to the real deal now with some good science behind it...

Loosing my faith in matrixyl too and i think marine collagen gives way better results at way lower cost!

free skin care · Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:24 pm

daler wrote:

Thank you DragoN!

I add ALA and seakelp bioferment in my DIY! but in any case i ll add the other cheltors too..

Renovage anyone?? lol, I have it in my refrigerator! never added it in my DIY... now I have learnt to avoid all the latest crap at lotioncrafters as they just keep coming!!! Sticking to the real deal now with some good science behind it...

Loosing my faith in matrixyl too and i think marine collagen gives way better results at way lower cost!

No worries Dragon sells a kit to make a safer verson of Renovage.......

SEAVage DIY kit, Idebenone B3 NAG serum, $35.95

http://stores.skinessentialactives.com/-strse-103/SEAVage-DIY-kit%2C-Idebenone/Detail.bok

free skin care · Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:55 pm

Also sells Matrixyl ......

Pal-KTTKS
PAL-Lys-Thr-Thr-Lys-Ser
(Matrixyl)

Peptides are used as regulators of cellular function. The body uses peptides for communication between cells, as such, bio engineered peptides were developed such that they might be able to upregulate or downregulate cutaneous functions that had reduced through the aging process and become apparent in the loss of dermal integrity.

A difficulty of peptide chemistry is dermal penetration . This remains crucial if the peptide is to exert cellular effects. To enhance penetration, the KTTKS peptide was linked to palmitic acid. The commercialized pentapeptide is known as Pal-KTTKS with the tradename Matrixyl. Pal-KTTKS, is used at a concentration of 1–4ppm in currently marketed cosmeceutical products.

http://stores.skinessentialactives.com/-strse-140/Pal-dsh-KTTKS%2C-Matrixyl-2-grams/Detail.bok

free skin care · Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:07 pm

Darkmoon, That has to be about one of the worst sales pitch for a peptide I have seen in a while. Laughing

Despite the fact that it is better tested than the vast majority.

Quote:

In the first work published by the Katayama group regarding the benefits of KTTKS, subconfluent cells were treated with the peptide at 0.5, 5, 15 and 50 μM concentrations [16]. The group reported that the stimulatory effect of ECM production could be observed at a dose as low as 0.5 μM (0.3 ppm). However, the optimal and more pronounce effect could only be achieved at higher doses of >5 μM (2.8 ppm). Even though the concentration recommended by the manufacturer for palmitoyl-KTTKS is within the range of the earlier reported concentrations for KTTKS, the enhanced ECM production effect was obtained based on the in vitro work. The peptide was applied directly on to the monolayer cells with no other factors such as permeation or metabolism barriers were taken into consideration.

Most of the reported clinical benefits were obtained by using a formulation containing palmitoyl-KTTKS and other active ingredients (e.g. niacinamide and vitamin E), or at least in the presence of a basic moisturizer. For example, combination or addition of cosmetic ingredients in a moisturizing vehicle is claimed to magnify the enhance benefits produced by the main ingredients and profoundly improve skin appearance [14, 58]. Previous in vivo published studies did not differentiate the role of palmitoyl-KTTKS specifically with other ingredients presence in the formulation except for the study carried out by Robinson et al. [35]. Thus, the observed benefits cannot be claimed as solely produced by the conjugated peptide as the effect could be due to or partially contributed by other ingredients. Even though there are several published reports regarding the clinical benefits of palmitoyl-KTTKS from multiple independent in vitro or in vivo investigations, only two studies were found to describe their study design and results evaluation in detailed – Robinson et al. and Fu et al. [35, 58].

Topically applied KTTKS: a review

No fountain of youth in a cheap plastic bottle.

But some would have you believe otherwise:

PENTAPEPTIDE PAL-KTTKS
RESEARCH UPDATE

Studies demonstrat value of procollagen fragment PAL KTTKS

It is *nice*. But would not suggest it is better than Retinol, they work well together though. And..according to the PG study, more effective with B3, which is known.

Quote:

Loosing my faith in matrixyl too and i think marine collagen gives way better results at way lower cost!

Have come across some interesting research on marine collagen, few others as well. Most was related to ingestion, much like the soy isoflavones, however there was a comparison study, HA, Animal derived collagen and marine, turned out that chickens feet contained the most useful amount and type, when ingested to make a difference in the dermis.

It is unfortunate that Dr.Pickarts copper peptides seems to cause problems, however the data that it was based on is solid. My own experience using his peptides, tends to strongly suggest that they are quite useful when used properly. I do prefer the CuGHK though, more bang for the buck. Wink

free skin care · Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:08 pm

DarkMoon wrote:

No worries Dragon sells a kit to make a safer verson of Renovage.......

SEAVage DIY kit, Idebenone B3 NAG serum, $35.95

http://stores.skinessentialactives.com/-strse-103/SEAVage-DIY-kit%2C-Idebenone/Detail.bok

I think you are confusing renovage with Prevage??? Renovage is a brand name ingredient containing teprenone, a stomach ulcer healing medicine...

free skin care · Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:13 pm

DragoN wrote:

Darkmoon, That has to be about one of the worst sales pitch for a peptide I have seen in a while. Laughing

Despite the fact that it is better tested than the vast majority.

Quote:

In the first work published by the Katayama group regarding the benefits of KTTKS, subconfluent cells were treated with the peptide at 0.5, 5, 15 and 50 μM concentrations [16]. The group reported that the stimulatory effect of ECM production could be observed at a dose as low as 0.5 μM (0.3 ppm). However, the optimal and more pronounce effect could only be achieved at higher doses of >5 μM (2.8 ppm). Even though the concentration recommended by the manufacturer for palmitoyl-KTTKS is within the range of the earlier reported concentrations for KTTKS, the enhanced ECM production effect was obtained based on the in vitro work. The peptide was applied directly on to the monolayer cells with no other factors such as permeation or metabolism barriers were taken into consideration.

Most of the reported clinical benefits were obtained by using a formulation containing palmitoyl-KTTKS and other active ingredients (e.g. niacinamide and vitamin E), or at least in the presence of a basic moisturizer. For example, combination or addition of cosmetic ingredients in a moisturizing vehicle is claimed to magnify the enhance benefits produced by the main ingredients and profoundly improve skin appearance [14, 58]. Previous in vivo published studies did not differentiate the role of palmitoyl-KTTKS specifically with other ingredients presence in the formulation except for the study carried out by Robinson et al. [35]. Thus, the observed benefits cannot be claimed as solely produced by the conjugated peptide as the effect could be due to or partially contributed by other ingredients. Even though there are several published reports regarding the clinical benefits of palmitoyl-KTTKS from multiple independent in vitro or in vivo investigations, only two studies were found to describe their study design and results evaluation in detailed – Robinson et al. and Fu et al. [35, 58].

Topically applied KTTKS: a review

No fountain of youth in a cheap plastic bottle.

But some would have you believe otherwise:

PENTAPEPTIDE PAL-KTTKS
RESEARCH UPDATE

Studies demonstrat value of procollagen fragment PAL KTTKS

It is *nice*. But would not suggest it is better than Retinol, they work well together though. And..according to the PG study, more effective with B3, which is known.

Quote:

Loosing my faith in matrixyl too and i think marine collagen gives way better results at way lower cost!

Have come across some interesting research on marine collagen, few others as well. Most was related to ingestion, much like the soy isoflavones, however there was a comparison study, HA, Animal derived collagen and marine, turned out that chickens feet contained the most useful amount and type, when ingested to make a difference in the dermis.

It is unfortunate that Dr.Pickarts copper peptides seems to cause problems, however the data that it was based on is solid. My own experience using his peptides, tends to strongly suggest that they are quite useful when used properly. I do prefer the CuGHK though, more bang for the buck. Wink

LOL not my sales pitch it is straight from your site doll. Wink

free skin care · Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:15 pm

daler wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

No worries Dragon sells a kit to make a safer verson of Renovage.......

SEAVage DIY kit, Idebenone B3 NAG serum, $35.95

http://stores.skinessentialactives.com/-strse-103/SEAVage-DIY-kit%2C-Idebenone/Detail.bok

I think you are confusing renovage with Prevage??? Renovage is a brand name ingredient containing teprenone, a stomach ulcer healing medicine...

You are correct daler, we aren't perfect, my error there sorry. Very Happy

free skin care · Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:15 pm

no worries, the names rhyme anyways Wink

free skin care · Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:21 pm

*eek*....that's scary!!

Wouldn't want that to happen. Active component.
Idebenone!!

Clinical efficacy assessment in photodamaged skin of 0.5% and 1.0% idebenone.

At 1%....it's pretty rough on my skin though. Had to learn the hard way. 0.5% is plenty.

Quote:

LOL not my sales pitch it is straight from your site doll. Wink

One would hope that I could do a better sales pitch than that one....that's drier than the sahara...

Something like this perhaps:

Teprenone improves the various manifestations associated with skin aging in mature skin; visibly reduces the appearance of fine lines, wrinkles, sun spots, large pores and skin redness, increases the skin's natural moisture content and barrier function, and enhances skin's overall firmness, tone and elasticity, while restoring the skin's overall texture.

Teprenone provides anti-aging and a protective effect against stress, by telomere stabilization and DNA maintenance (cell division). If offers improvement of tissue quality by optimal cell interactions (cell communication) and assists with rebalance of cell functions (metabolism). By delaying senescence, Teprenone can extend cell lifespan by one third.

Teprenone fights against all signs of aging. Truly the singular component necessary to fight ALL signs of aging and won't break the bank.
Laughing

....That's the Renovage/ Teprenone crap...and not a single paper in the literature about its use in dermal applications, effect on the dermis when ingested...nothing. Total sales bull.

Personally, I vote for the Yak Meat tenderizer of anti aging purpose and better use than Renocrap any day of the week.

free skin care · Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:23 pm

DragoN wrote:

*eek*....that's scary!!

Wouldn't want that to happen. Active component.
Idebenone!!

Clinical efficacy assessment in photodamaged skin of 0.5% and 1.0% idebenone.

At 1%....it's pretty rough on my skin though. Had to learn the hard way. 0.5% is plenty.

sorry, its off the topic from this thread but I ll ask anyways since we are discussing it,is Idebenone any better than Co Q10? Thank you

Automatic Message

If this is your first visit to the EDS Forums please take the time to register. Registration is required for you to post on the forums. Registration will also give you the ability to track messages of interest, send private messages to other users, participate in Gift Certificates draws and enjoy automatic discounts for shopping at our online store. Registration is free and takes just a few seconds to complete.

Click Here to join our community.

If you are already a registered member on the forums, please login to gain full access to the site.