Facial Bone Remodeling... Would this gadget work?
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free skin care · Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:52 pm

I am getting more interested in bone remodeling. I have FlexEffect 3rd Edition and I understand the massage technique that Deb recommends... But... my hands get really tired trying to apply the amount of pressure I feel is needed for this to be truly effective.

I got to thinking about using a kind of hand-held massager... anybody think this little gadget might do the trick?

I figure I'd put a light weight (tea towel) across my face and just roll, applying pressure as I went. Thoughts??

http://www.amazon.com/Body-Back-Company-Massage-Roller/dp/B004BOT1T2/ref=lh_ni_t

free skin care · Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:12 pm

I've never used flex effect, so I'm not familiar with the massage techniques. This gadget works to massage the muscles and relieve tension. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but its my best guess that bone remodeling is hard to achieve without some kind of invasive measure.

free skin care · Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:15 pm

Cat_eyes wrote:

I've never used flex effect, so I'm not familiar with the massage techniques. This gadget works to massage the muscles and relieve tension. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but its my best guess that bone remodeling is hard to achieve without some kind of invasive measure.

Well, at least according to FE, pressure (by your hands) all along the facial bones is enough to cause the bones to remodel (or at least diminish the bone loss that happens as we age).

My thought was that a handheld device with a roller could exert the deep pressure required saving my hands (or at least making the process easier...).

free skin care · Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:39 pm

Luminosity wrote:

I am getting more interested in bone remodeling. I have FlexEffect 3rd Edition and I understand the massage technique that Deb recommends... But... my hands get really tired trying to apply the amount of pressure I feel is needed for this to be truly effective.

I got to thinking about using a kind of hand-held massager... anybody think this little gadget might do the trick?

I figure I'd put a light weight (tea towel) across my face and just roll, applying pressure as I went. Thoughts??

http://www.amazon.com/Body-Back-Company-Massage-Roller/dp/B004BOT1T2/ref=lh_ni_t

Hi Luminosity,

I have two of those little rollers that I picked up at my health food store! They are super smooth and roll very easily, plus you decide the amount of pressure you use. I have never tried them on my face but have used them for tension in the neck.

I am not sure that helps with what you want them for, but I hope so!

Very Happy

free skin care · Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:44 pm

@DarkMoon, yes, that helps... It's good to know that they roll easily. Would you do me a huge favor and try my theory out?

I would so love to know (1) if the roller glides over the tea towel or if it works just fine on a bare face and (2) if you feel sufficient pressure on your face to cause some remodeling.

You would be my hero!!

free skin care · Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:58 pm

Luminosity wrote:

@DarkMoon, yes, that helps... It's good to know that they roll easily. Would you do me a huge favor and try my theory out?

I would so love to know (1) if the roller glides over the tea towel or if it works just fine on a bare face and (2) if you feel sufficient pressure on your face to cause some remodeling.

You would be my hero!!

Lumoinosity,

Yes it rolls fine on a bare face or a smooth tea towel, mine are all cotton and not nubby?

You can push as soft or hard as you wish, actually enough pressure is a tad painful if you push too hard, yet it still rolls! Very Happy

free skin care · Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:08 pm

DarkMoon wrote:

Luminosity wrote:

@DarkMoon, yes, that helps... It's good to know that they roll easily. Would you do me a huge favor and try my theory out?

I would so love to know (1) if the roller glides over the tea towel or if it works just fine on a bare face and (2) if you feel sufficient pressure on your face to cause some remodeling.

You would be my hero!!

Lumoinosity,

Yes it rolls fine on a bare face or a smooth tea towel, mine are all cotton and not nubby?

You can push as soft or hard as you wish, actually enough pressure is a tad painful if you push too hard, yet it still rolls! Very Happy

Oh, awesome! Thank you! So, now that you've used it, do you think there is potential here for bone strengthening? I know there are many who have doubts that face remodeling is even possible (from what I've read online here and there). It is intriguing for sure... and of course, my hope is that it truly does work.

free skin care · Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:16 pm

Luminosity wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

Luminosity wrote:

@DarkMoon, yes, that helps... It's good to know that they roll easily. Would you do me a huge favor and try my theory out?

I would so love to know (1) if the roller glides over the tea towel or if it works just fine on a bare face and (2) if you feel sufficient pressure on your face to cause some remodeling.

You would be my hero!!

Lumoinosity,

Yes it rolls fine on a bare face or a smooth tea towel, mine are all cotton and not nubby?

You can push as soft or hard as you wish, actually enough pressure is a tad painful if you push too hard, yet it still rolls! Very Happy

Oh, awesome! Thank you! So, now that you've used it, do you think there is potential here for bone strengthening? I know there are many who have doubts that face remodeling is even possible (from what I've read online here and there). It is intriguing for sure... and of course, my hope is that it truly does work.

I don't do facial exercise but since I use OCM as my cleansing method I do massage all the time.

I would say this if you can remodel the bone as many say you can, with your hands I can't see any reason this would not do exactly the same.

It is my limited understanding that pressure on the bones is what strengthens them as well as shapes them. Very Happy

free skin care · Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:19 pm

DarkMoon wrote:

Luminosity wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

Luminosity wrote:

@DarkMoon, yes, that helps... It's good to know that they roll easily. Would you do me a huge favor and try my theory out?

I would so love to know (1) if the roller glides over the tea towel or if it works just fine on a bare face and (2) if you feel sufficient pressure on your face to cause some remodeling.

You would be my hero!!

Lumoinosity,

Yes it rolls fine on a bare face or a smooth tea towel, mine are all cotton and not nubby?

You can push as soft or hard as you wish, actually enough pressure is a tad painful if you push too hard, yet it still rolls! Very Happy

Oh, awesome! Thank you! So, now that you've used it, do you think there is potential here for bone strengthening? I know there are many who have doubts that face remodeling is even possible (from what I've read online here and there). It is intriguing for sure... and of course, my hope is that it truly does work.

I don't do facial exercise but since I use OCM as my cleansing method I do massage all the time.

I would say this if you can remodel the bone as many say you can, with your hands I can't see any reason this would not do exactly the same.

It is my limited understanding that pressure on the bones is what strengthens them as well as shapes them. Very Happy

Yes, this is my thought as well... That it's the pressure that's the key. I truly appreciate your thoughts on this... Smile

free skin care · Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:28 pm

You are welcome Luminosity,

It all just seems very logical to me that it would work and save your hands! Very Happy

free skin care · Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:12 pm

Hi Luminosity,

Have you checked out Yamuna's Face Saver ball? If not, I think you might find it to be just what you're looking for.

You can read a thread about it here: http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=42039&highlight=yamuna

Check out this link that Frodo posted — it has a video clip: http://yamunabodyrolling.com/store/body_focus/face/?show_item=36

Here's another link with some more information: http://yamunabodyrolling.com/about/face_ball/

I bought the kit a while back from Amazon, and have only recently started using it (I tend to put things off, LOL). Now I'm sorry I delayed, because I'm really enjoying the workout!

I also do FlexEffect 3, along with Ageless (sometimes one, sometimes the other), and feel that Yamuna's Face Ball system fits right in with what Deb says about bone stimulation and remodeling.

Here's a quote from the Yamuna site:

"Developed to feel like your skin, Yamuna® Face Saver balls glide easily over the facial structure, directly stimulating bone, improving the health and mass of the bone, thereby delaying or avoiding altogether skin sagging."

free skin care · Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:19 pm

Love the Yamuna face saver. I do it 3x per week right after my weightraning. I agree, great complement to flexeffect.

free skin care · Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:30 pm

Thank you ladies for the information on Yamuna! While the relaxation seems amazing... do either of you feel it will actually help with bone remodeling?

Meaning... is the pressure deep enough? That is my main concern... I am trying to avoid the hollowed eye look or slack jaw that can come with bone loss.

It's very exciting to read the quote saying it will... I'm just looking for some direct experience. Thank you. Smile

free skin care · Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:11 pm

Luminosity wrote:

Thank you ladies for the information on Yamuna! While the relaxation seems amazing... do either of you feel it will actually help with bone remodeling?

Meaning... is the pressure deep enough? That is my main concern... I am trying to avoid the hollowed eye look or slack jaw that can come with bone loss.

It's very exciting to read the quote saying it will... I'm just looking for some direct experience. Thank you. Smile

You're very welcome! Except one of us is not a lady ... I'm a guy Very Happy

(I know you can't tell from my screen name.)

To answer your question, yes, I do feel the pressure is deep and strong enough to help with the bone remodeling. Especially when you press the ball using both hands. I've even had to lighten up a bit in some spots that felt tender under the pressure.

Swissmom, would you agree that you can get some effective pressure going on with the ball?

Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:33 pm

Luminosity,

Yamuna ball massage is supposed to promote bone health and prevent bone loss...at least that's what their literature/dvd claims. I have done it every day since I got the kit in October, and I love it. I suppose there is no way to test this on one's self, unless you did it to half your face for years, which none of us are going to do, but I can say it feels great, makes your facial bones bear weight, and completely opens up the face. It is the single most important "gadget" I have purchased since discovering EDS a year and a half ago (and trying many of the most popular devices/therapies). I use it in conjunction with Flex Effect and Tanaka, and am devoted to all three.

And the kit only costs about $70. Hope this helps.

free skin care · Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:35 pm

Sovajo wrote:

Luminosity wrote:

Thank you ladies for the information on Yamuna! While the relaxation seems amazing... do either of you feel it will actually help with bone remodeling?

Meaning... is the pressure deep enough? That is my main concern... I am trying to avoid the hollowed eye look or slack jaw that can come with bone loss.

It's very exciting to read the quote saying it will... I'm just looking for some direct experience. Thank you. Smile

You're very welcome! Except one of us is not a lady ... I'm a guy Very Happy

(I know you can't tell from my screen name.)

To answer your question, yes, I do feel the pressure is deep and strong enough to help with the bone remodeling. Especially when you press the ball using both hands. I've even had to lighten up a bit in some spots that felt tender under the pressure.

Swissmom, would you agree that you can get some effective pressure going on with the ball?

Oops, my bad! Embarassed

Thank you for giving me further information... It helps a lot!

Savajo, LBH and Swissmom, I read through the Yamuna thread and someone suggested that perhaps the Face Saver System could possibly replace facial exercises? Any comments on that?

The problem I have with FlexEffect is that the pulling can make me break out around the mouth area. It's really a dilemma... I love how face exercises feel but I don't need acne at this stage of my life! Laughing

For those that do the Yamuna Face system without exercise, do you see any lift or sufficient toning to the point that you feel comfortable without performing face exercises?

free skin care · Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:35 pm

Luminosity,

I recently bought Yamuna Face Kit (would help if DVD worked btw), and while I really really like it a lot, it is not a substitution for facial exercises (which I have also recently added). IMHO it is an excellent addition but not a substitution.

Perhaps, you can skip some of the exercises from FF that bother you? Also, do you do exercises with a clean free of any skin products makeup face? Just some thoughts....

HTH

free skin care · Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:45 pm

sigma wrote:

Luminosity,

I recently bought Yamuna Face Kit (would help if DVD worked btw), and while I really really like it a lot, it is not a substitution for facial exercises (which I have also recently added). IMHO it is an excellent addition but not a substitution.

Perhaps, you can skip some of the exercises from FF that bother you? Also, do you do exercises with a clean free of any skin products makeup face? Just some thoughts....

HTH

Thank you... I suspected facial exercises were still part of the equation, lol.

One thing I did notice... if I had some moisturizer on my skin first I did not break out as much (my routine is to wash my face, do 'The Brush' and 'Face Firmer' by CFF then launch into FE).

However, as great as the moisturizer is for the beginning, it doesn't let me grab the skin as much for the cheek exercises in FE. I can still grab, but it's more of a grab and slide. I guess I'll have to go back to that and see if things improve.

That said, are you doing the FE bone remodeling massage or are you eliminating that for the Yamuna Face Saver system? I'm just wondering if at least that portion of FE might be substituted somewhat.

free skin care · Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:30 pm

Luminosity,

right now I am doing "Facial Magic" and only the part for double chin/neck area due to lack of time. I do want to add FE (also parts for eyes/chin/jowels/neck).

What is Face Firmer? Do you like it? If yes - which parts?

My main problems are eye bags and very serious double chin.

For the forehead I am using Safetox (which I love, btw), and not doing any exercises (they did not help in the past).

Interestingly enough after Yamuna massage (short 5 min one) my eye bags disappear completely, but unfortunately they are back with me within half and hour. Tanaka massage does not help with it.

I also bought Refa Pro and using it for a few minutes ( so far I am a bit underwhelmed, but still trying ...).

free skin care · Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:44 pm

sigma wrote:

Luminosity,

right now I am doing "Facial Magic" and only the part for double chin/neck area due to lack of time. I do want to add FE (also parts for eyes/chin/jowels/neck).

What is Face Firmer? Do you like it? If yes - which parts?

My main problems are eye bags and very serious double chin.

For the forehead I am using Safetox (which I love, btw), and not doing any exercises (they did not help in the past).

Interestingly enough after Yamuna massage (short 5 min one) my eye bags disappear completely, but unfortunately they are back with me within half and hour. Tanaka massage does not help with it.

I also bought Refa Pro and using it for a few minutes ( so far I am a bit underwhelmed, but still trying ...).

Sigma,

Here is the link for the Face Firmer... I love it - it is just one exercise but all inclusive! If that's all you had time for, it would be the main one I would do.

http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/face-firmer-massage-technique

You also may want to try out "The Brush" which is her 'Double Chin and Neck Line Eradicator.'

http://youtu.be/8wDJ_ud7Los

I bought the Safetox a few weeks ago, but can you believe it, I still haven't used it. I guess I've been a little overwhelmed and keep putting it on the back burner. This is my weekend to get my skincare regime in order!

But... please.... do tell me more about the ReFa Pro!!!! I have been very interested in this since I first heard about it. You said you were underwhelmed and I'd really love to know more. I had an email conversation with an esthetician who sells it and she felt it was the best thing since sliced cucumbers...

free skin care · Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:43 pm

Logically thinking, it would seem to me that any bone loss that is experienced through aging would be evident throughout the entire body - not just the face. So it doesn't make sense to me that just massaging the face can prevent it. As we age, our whole body changes - our stature changes, we become shorter - that's why it's important to prevent against osteoporosis.

However, my motto of the moment is "Abuse it or lose it". I'm using a Dermaroller, Vaculifter and the Lyapko Roller and I think that all these devices can help the skin by bring blood to the area - but as I said above, if bone loss is a problem, I can't see how massaging one particular area can help.

free skin care · Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:15 pm

Keliu wrote:

Logically thinking, it would seem to me that any bone loss that is experienced through aging would be evident throughout the entire body - not just the face. So it doesn't make sense to me that just massaging the face can prevent it. As we age, our whole body changes - our stature changes, we become shorter - that's why it's important to prevent against osteoporosis.

Bolding mine. You are right with this regard. It is insane for anyone to try to address their aging from the outside only. Like putting a bandaid on a gushing wound.

A person's health is of the utmost importance. One of the reason's you hear us asking people about factors that actually influence their appearance. Diet, sleep, drugs etc. Creams and such are nice, but they are icing on a cake. As the wife of a chef, I highly recommend you start with an awesome cake. Why put amazing icing on a twinkie....

So, although I believe you can impact your bone health externally, (Jogging for example stimulates fibroblasts within bone, and similarly that's our goal with the face/ bone remodeling techniques.) If you don't retain calcium because you don't have D. Forget about addressing bone from the outside in. You have bigger problems.

Natural beauty is a reflection of one's health. And a person whose bones are breaking down, will infact look older, and frail.

Check out http://www.pubmed.gov and search something like facial bone loss and aging. You will see scientific studies showing what we already "know" through extrapolation.

No matter what you choose to impact your bone health... DO WHAT YOU CAN to keep it intact!!!

An once of prevention, a pound of cure and all that!

free skin care · Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:17 pm

Keliu wrote:

Logically thinking, it would seem to me that any bone loss that is experienced through aging would be evident throughout the entire body - not just the face. So it doesn't make sense to me that just massaging the face can prevent it. As we age, our whole body changes - our stature changes, we become shorter - that's why it's important to prevent against osteoporosis.

However, my motto of the moment is "Abuse it or lose it". I'm using a Dermaroller, Vaculifter and the Lyapko Roller and I think that all these devices can help the skin by bring blood to the area - but as I said above, if bone loss is a problem, I can't see how massaging one particular area can help.

So glad Claudia chimed in!

Also, I recently read that tennis players have much denser bones in the arm that swings the racket...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolff's_law
(you have to actually copy and paste this link into your browser to get to the article - for some reason it isn't displaying properly here.)

Wolff's law is a theory developed by the German Anatomist/Surgeon Julius Wolff (1836–1902) in the 19th century that states that bone in a healthy person or animal will adapt to the loads it is placed under.[1] If loading on a particular bone increases, the bone will remodel itself over time to become stronger to resist that sort of loading. The internal architecture of the trabeculae undergoes adaptive changes, followed by secondary changes to the external cortical portion of the bone,[2] perhaps becoming thicker as a result. The converse is true as well: if the loading on a bone decreases, the bone will become weaker due to turnover, it is less metabolically costly to maintain and there is no stimulus for continued remodeling that is required to maintain bone mass.[3]

free skin care · Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:00 am

Hi everyone! To answer Sovajo's question:
Swissmom, would you agree that you can get some effective pressure going on with the ball?

I would say yes! I hold the ball with both hands and press into the bone, and I feel it. The immediate result I have seen is that I got the contour of my cheekbones back. Flexeffect has lifted and firmed them up. And when I added the yamuna system, I found that the bottom of my cheekbones were more defined since you have to use the ball in that area. My cheekbones now look like it did in my twenties. It was something that I gradually lost, definition wise.

I'm only 49 so time will tell if this works for bone remodeling. But it makes sense, since you are putting weight on the bone, you are not to just roll the ball around your face. This would not replace facial exercise. I think of it as doing cardio and resistance exercises. You must do both to get a great body. So the Yamuna system plus Deb's system work great for the face.

free skin care · Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:11 am

Swissmom wrote:

Hi everyone! To answer Sovajo's question:
Swissmom, would you agree that you can get some effective pressure going on with the ball?

I would say yes! I hold the ball with both hands and press into the bone, and I feel it. The immediate result I have seen is that I got the contour of my cheekbones back. Flexeffect has lifted and firmed them up. And when I added the yamuna system, I found that the bottom of my cheekbones were more defined since you have to use the ball in that area. My cheekbones now look like it did in my twenties. It was something that I gradually lost, definition wise.

I'm only 49 so time will tell if this works for bone remodeling. But it makes sense, since you are putting weight on the bone, you are not to just roll the ball around your face. This would not replace facial exercise. I think of it as doing cardio and resistance exercises. You must do both to get a great body. So the Yamuna system plus Deb's system work great for the face.

Brilliant... thank you Swissmom! I just finished FlexEffect and went right into my Lyapko roller... OMG!!!! I love that roller and it's such a perfect finish to the face exercises.

My plan will be to do the jolting, cross stretching, massage and bone pressure reps at night. I feel as if the Yamuna ball will be a perfect accompaniment and maybe I can squeeze that in the morning as a few others do.

Swissmom, can you tell me if you still do the FE bone pressure reps or have you outright substituted Yamuna for that part?

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