Ultrasound Ib3, Facemate, Bellaire, Brite Leaf etc
EDS Skin Care Forums Forum Index » Skincare Tools & Do-It-Yourself Skincare

free skin care · Sun May 13, 2012 10:49 am

Just so this question doesn't get lost, my question for DragoN posted earlier:

Since the unit we have been discussing can't use the LED and ultrasound at the same time (only consecutively as DarkMoon pointed out), this seems like an affordable, workable option. I am not planning on using the LED portion, but having it sit there unused cannot be causing damage, can it? DragoN please let us know if not and why...

Also, I had read that 1 Mhz should not be used on the face? This is from the Bellaire site:

http://www.bellaireindustry.com/handhelds.html

Quote:

*Please be aware that there are companies who market handheld probes that are said to provide 1, 2, and 3 MHz frequencies all in one handheld device. Unless these are medical-grade devices, this is false advertising. Most likely, the handheld device is a 1 MHz probe with a low, medium, and high setting and if used on the face, can end up damaging your client's skin. *

And further:

http://www.bellaireindustry.com/faqs.html

Quote:

1 MHz ultrasound waves permeate the deepest into tissue so it is for BODY use only. Since it is so powerful, it can damage your facial tissue if you use it on the face. For facial treatments, we recommend either 2 or 3 MHz. 3 MHz is used mainly on the face since it permeates the least deeply and 2 MHz can be safely used on both the face and body.
Bellaire Industry is the only manufacturer of 2 MHz ultrasound probes so please do not be misled by other companies who claim to have 2 MHz ultrasound probes.
When purchasing an ultrasound probe it is EXTREMELY important that you know what frequency the device is. Many of the ultrasound probes on the market today are 1 MHz probes that are sold as 2 or 3 MHz probes. As mentioned above, using the wrong frequency on the face could cause tissue damage. Make sure you purchase the device from a trustworthy company who can assure you the probes are the frequency they are being sold at.

I'm very curious about your answer here... Thank you.

free skin care · Sun May 13, 2012 11:39 am

Is the unit you are using from Bellaire? which one?

I think owndoc just posted a negative review of the dermapen look-alike product sold on the Bellaire site. She wanted to add it to her line to sell, but couldn't vouch for it and dreaded how many returns she would be inundated with.

BFG

free skin care · Sun May 13, 2012 11:50 am

skincarecat wrote:

Hello
Also, funny, it seems the less I do, the better I am. I stopped Tua after injury to face, eased up on CP's and am just using a serum (Source Naturals I think) and some Lightstim here and there, and look less BLAH, lol

Any comments would be great. I was eager for STOP/POSE but they are so expensive and the reviews are just not great.

thanks-if we could start a simple list with product name-and result that would help a lot. I am having hard time searchign whole site since I have migraines/ear infection, and head injury right now. GREAT I KNOW, lol....I'm sexy and I know it, ha ha
have a great weekend everyone....excuse the typing, I cant see well.

I find taking days off from cp's makes my skin look better. I take weekends off..it gives my skin time for the remodling to take effect.

free skin care · Sun May 13, 2012 8:26 pm

Interesting article on 1 MHz vs. 3 MHz for the face. Indicates 3 is more suitable for the face.

http://tamarasskincare.com/2010/12/is-1mhz-or-3-mhz-ultrasound-better-for-facials/

free skin care · Sun May 13, 2012 8:50 pm

Quote:

Also, I had read that 1 Mhz should not be used on the face? This is from the Bellaire site:

And...skindream titanium sells precisely that. The info is conflicting and some of the research used 45Khz which is far deeper penetration.

Luminosity, lost a long post, so this is the short version. You can use any water based gel or cream, even tap water for ultrasound. Or you can do the wild thing and create one. You can make pretty much whatever you want, just watch the pH and decide how you prefer the lotion to feel and that sort of thing. Often it is suggested to use only approved gels...but the basis for that is lacking other than...sell more ultrasound gel? Coupling media studies don't show a massive difference. Minimal and that can be expected based on the ingredients.

Dermatol Surg. 2012 Jan;38(1):20-7. doi: 10.1111/j.1524-4725.2011.02158.x. Epub 2011 Sep 14.
Multiple pass ultrasound tightening of skin laxity of the lower face and neck.
Lee HS, Jang WS, Cha YJ, Choi YH, Tak Y, Hwang E, Kim BJ, Kim MN.
Source

Gowoonsesang Dermatologic Clinic, Seoul, Korea.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:

Skin laxity is a common complaint of patients who request skin rejuvenation. Radiofrequency and infrared light are widely used for nonablative treatment of skin laxity. Intense focused ultrasound (IFUS) has been investigated as a tool for the treatment of solid benign and malignant tumors for many decades but is only now beginning to emerge as a potential noninvasive alternative to conventional nonablative therapy.
OBJECTIVES:

To evaluate the efficacy of IFUS for the treatment of face and neck laxity.
METHODS:

Twelve female volunteers were enrolled in the study, and 10 were ultimately evaluated. The device under investigation was an IFUS. Areas treated included the face and neck. For treatment, the 4-MHz, 4.5-mm probe was used first, followed by the 7-MHz, 3.0-mm probe. Two blinded, experienced clinicians evaluated paired pretreatment and post-treatment (day 90) photographs. Patient self-assessments were also obtained.
RESULTS:

On the first primary outcome measure, two blinded clinicians felt that 8 of 10 subjects (80%) showed clinical improvement 90 days after treatment. Nine of 10 subjects (90%) reported subjective improvement.
CONCLUSIONS:

IFUS has many advantages for skin tightening.

© 2011 by the American Society for Dermatologic Surgery, Inc. Published by Wiley Periodicals, Inc.
[url]
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1524-4725.2011.02158.x/full[/url]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1524-4725.2011.02172.x/full

Caveat, not everyone responds well...and that is a treatment modality. Not an at home use unit. Similar but different.

And...going over the info from my colleague, he also was kind enough to print out 3 machines, made in Japan, and all are 1 Mhz. Confused

Priced over $250.00 US. For facial use.

There is No research specifically stating 1 Mhz is dangerous for face, there is the "it is written" on a blog or advert site. I have not found it any rate. There are 1000's of papers on the benefits and contra indications of ultrasound.

J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1999 Apr;57(4):409-19; discussion 420.
In vitro effects of therapeutic ultrasound on cell proliferation, protein synthesis, and cytokine production by human fibroblasts, osteoblasts, and monocytes.
Doan N, Reher P, Meghji S, Harris M.
Source

Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery, Eastman Dental Institute/UCL, London, UK.
Abstract
PURPOSE:

The aim of this study was to evaluate several in vitro effects of ultrasound that could revert or prevent the

hypoxia, hypovascularity, and hypocellularity observed in osteoradionecrosis.
MATERIALS AND METHODS:

Two different ultrasound machines were evaluated, a "traditional" (1 MHz, pulsed 1:4) and a "long wave" (45 kHz, continuous) machine, tested at various intensities. Ultrasound was applied to human gingival fibroblasts, mandibular osteoblasts, and monocytes. The assays performed were cell proliferation (DNA synthesis), collagen and noncollagenous protein (NCP) synthesis, and cytokine production (ELISA) involving interleukin (IL) 1 beta, IL-6, and IL-8, tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF alpha), basic fibroblast growth factor (bFGF), and vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF).
[b]RESULTS:

Both ultrasound machines induced increased cell proliferation in fibroblasts and osteoblasts, between 35% and 52%. The collagen and NCP synthesis were also significantly enhanced to levels up to 112%, the best results being with the 45-kHz machine.[/b] The ELISA results showed a slight stimulation of IL-1 beta by all cell types; there was no difference in IL-6 and TNF alpha levels. The angiogenesis-related cytokines evaluated were significantly stimulated: IL-8 and bFGF production was enhanced in osteoblasts, and VEGF production was stimulated in all three cell types. Both ultrasound machines produced the same results, with the recommended intensities being 15 and 30 mW/cm2(SA) for the 45-kHz ultrasound, and 0.1 and 0.4 W/cm2(SAPA) for the 1 MHz ultrasound.
CONCLUSIONS:
Therapeutic ultrasound induces in vitro cell proliferation, collagen/NCP production, bone formation, and angiogenesis. These findings support its use in prospective clinical trials for the prevention and treatment of osteoradionecrosis.

There are not enough studies on the use of 1 Mhz for facial skin, there are two or three studies using 4 Mhz and up and one using 45 Khz. And...Skindream titanium sells the 1 Mhz, 0.5 J/ cm2 - 1.0W/cm2 for close to $1000.00 US...and...where were we again?

For the record, I'm not arguing, the data is conflicting.

Shastagirl:
No disrespect intended.
It's an article...articles are crap for information. We want the research. I want the numbers. Articles galore over here suggesting and selling 1 Mhz as the bomb as well.

free skin care · Sun May 13, 2012 8:59 pm

Thank you, DragoN...

Based on the lack of data I think I'll start with the 3 Mhz for now... and will follow your progress with the 1 Mhz closely. I think we would all love to know which unit you are using if you would feel comfortable sharing that.

(Or perhaps you are keeping things under wraps while you conduct your evaluation?)

But can I just ask your opinion on whether the combo LED/ ultrasound 3 Mhz unit is (in your opinion) a quality (enough) unit for now? Like I said, my plan is to OMIT the LED but based on the lower price point, it's hard to pass this up unless there are quality issues.

Again, here is the link to the unit I'm referring to: http://www.amazon.com/Photon-Light-Green-Ultrasound-Massager/dp/B007RFEXQS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336967855&sr=8-1

free skin care · Sun May 13, 2012 9:09 pm

Very interesting thank you, DrsgoN. Maybe Luminosity would be good enough to e-mail Bellaire to find out what they are basing their assertions as regards safety on?

free skin care · Sun May 13, 2012 9:15 pm

Firefox7275 wrote:

Very interesting thank you, DrsgoN. Maybe Luminosity would be good enough to e-mail Bellaire to find out what they are basing their assertions as regards safety on?

I can try... Sing-Hong has been rather stingy with his replies of late. Not talking

I've had a few questions for him and I'm lucky if I get one answer in three.

I've been doing some research on various things and have already contacted him but based on the esty forums I visit, he really likes the praise stuff and does not respond to tough questions. For instance, I asked him specifically about the Ezzi-Lift and why that was preferrable to their ultrasound units. Basically he sent me testimonials from women who loved the Ezzi-Lift. Oh and a link to a video diary of the Ezzi-Lift. Flat out avoided my question altogether.

free skin care · Sun May 13, 2012 9:38 pm

DragoN wrote:

Quote:

Also, I had read that 1 Mhz should not be used on the face? This is from the Bellaire site:

And...skindream titanium sells precisely that. The info is conflicting and some of the research used 45Khz which is far deeper penetration.

Luminosity, lost a long post, so this is the short version. You can use any water based gel or cream, even tap water for ultrasound. Or you can do the wild thing and create one. You can make pretty much whatever you want, just watch the pH and decide how you prefer the lotion to feel and that sort of thing. Often it is suggested to use only approved gels...but the basis for that is lacking other than...sell more ultrasound gel? Coupling media studies don't show a massive difference. Minimal and that can be expected based on the ingredients.

Dermatol Surg. 2012 Jan;38(1):20-7. doi: 10.1111/j.1524-4725.2011.02158.x. Epub 2011 Sep 14.
Multiple pass ultrasound tightening of skin laxity of the lower face and neck.
Lee HS, Jang WS, Cha YJ, Choi YH, Tak Y, Hwang E, Kim BJ, Kim MN.
Source

Gowoonsesang Dermatologic Clinic, Seoul, Korea.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:

Skin laxity is a common complaint of patients who request skin rejuvenation. Radiofrequency and infrared light are widely used for nonablative treatment of skin laxity. Intense focused ultrasound (IFUS) has been investigated as a tool for the treatment of solid benign and malignant tumors for many decades but is only now beginning to emerge as a potential noninvasive alternative to conventional nonablative therapy.
OBJECTIVES:

To evaluate the efficacy of IFUS for the treatment of face and neck laxity.
METHODS:

Twelve female volunteers were enrolled in the study, and 10 were ultimately evaluated. The device under investigation was an IFUS. Areas treated included the face and neck. For treatment, the 4-MHz, 4.5-mm probe was used first, followed by the 7-MHz, 3.0-mm probe. Two blinded, experienced clinicians evaluated paired pretreatment and post-treatment (day 90) photographs. Patient self-assessments were also obtained.
RESULTS:

On the first primary outcome measure, two blinded clinicians felt that 8 of 10 subjects (80%) showed clinical improvement 90 days after treatment. Nine of 10 subjects (90%) reported subjective improvement.
CONCLUSIONS:

IFUS has many advantages for skin tightening.

© 2011 by the American Society for Dermatologic Surgery, Inc. Published by Wiley Periodicals, Inc.
[url]
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1524-4725.2011.02158.x/full[/url]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1524-4725.2011.02172.x/full

Caveat, not everyone responds well...and that is a treatment modality. Not an at home use unit. Similar but different.

And...going over the info from my colleague, he also was kind enough to print out 3 machines, made in Japan, and all are 1 Mhz. Confused

Priced over $250.00 US. For facial use.

There is No research specifically stating 1 Mhz is dangerous for face, there is the "it is written" on a blog or advert site. I have not found it any rate. There are 1000's of papers on the benefits and contra indications of ultrasound.

J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1999 Apr;57(4):409-19; discussion 420.
In vitro effects of therapeutic ultrasound on cell proliferation, protein synthesis, and cytokine production by human fibroblasts, osteoblasts, and monocytes.
Doan N, Reher P, Meghji S, Harris M.
Source

Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery, Eastman Dental Institute/UCL, London, UK.
Abstract
PURPOSE:

The aim of this study was to evaluate several in vitro effects of ultrasound that could revert or prevent the

hypoxia, hypovascularity, and hypocellularity observed in osteoradionecrosis.
MATERIALS AND METHODS:

Two different ultrasound machines were evaluated, a "traditional" (1 MHz, pulsed 1:4) and a "long wave" (45 kHz, continuous) machine, tested at various intensities. Ultrasound was applied to human gingival fibroblasts, mandibular osteoblasts, and monocytes. The assays performed were cell proliferation (DNA synthesis), collagen and noncollagenous protein (NCP) synthesis, and cytokine production (ELISA) involving interleukin (IL) 1 beta, IL-6, and IL-8, tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF alpha), basic fibroblast growth factor (bFGF), and vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF).
[b]RESULTS:

Both ultrasound machines induced increased cell proliferation in fibroblasts and osteoblasts, between 35% and 52%. The collagen and NCP synthesis were also significantly enhanced to levels up to 112%, the best results being with the 45-kHz machine.[/b] The ELISA results showed a slight stimulation of IL-1 beta by all cell types; there was no difference in IL-6 and TNF alpha levels. The angiogenesis-related cytokines evaluated were significantly stimulated: IL-8 and bFGF production was enhanced in osteoblasts, and VEGF production was stimulated in all three cell types. Both ultrasound machines produced the same results, with the recommended intensities being 15 and 30 mW/cm2(SA) for the 45-kHz ultrasound, and 0.1 and 0.4 W/cm2(SAPA) for the 1 MHz ultrasound.
CONCLUSIONS:
Therapeutic ultrasound induces in vitro cell proliferation, collagen/NCP production, bone formation, and angiogenesis. These findings support its use in prospective clinical trials for the prevention and treatment of osteoradionecrosis.

There are not enough studies on the use of 1 Mhz for facial skin, there are two or three studies using 4 Mhz and up and one using 45 Khz. And...Skindream titanium sells the 1 Mhz, 0.5 J/ cm2 - 1.0W/cm2 for close to $1000.00 US...and...where were we again?

For the record, I'm not arguing, the data is conflicting.

Shastagirl:
No disrespect intended.
It's an article...articles are crap for information. We want the research. I want the numbers. Articles galore over here suggesting and selling 1 Mhz as the bomb as well.

Agreed. There is a high degree of conflicting info out there. Many references to 1 MHz being used for sports injuries, but yet facial devices are sold at that level as well. And a lack of concrete studies.

With 1 MHz claiming to work at a depth of 2.5 to 5 cm and 3mhz at <1cm, you need to decide how deep you want to go.

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 12:43 am

Luminosity,

I hope you can get more concrete answers from Sing Hong, but I don't think so. Those answers aren't out there in black and white. He's doing the best he can based on what is available. I can't fault him for that.

Regarding that unit, I've seen that unit advertised here as well. It's quite a common one. I personally passed on it, The transducer head is really small as a result of the LED array. Wait, there are better things out there. I found some nice simple 3 Mhz and 5 Mhz with multiple setting units. Will test those as well.

Several manufacturers are adamantly assuring me that the 1 Mhz is safe. Define "safe" for me please? LOL...I am really picky. So, Sing Hong is in the same boat.

I am pretty certain that they are fine, as long as not abused. 5 mins. Not 30. I prefer the low heat as opposed to the hi heat. My bias. doesn't mean I'm right though
Bone attenuates very effectively...lots of bone on my face. My concern is the eyes. Do Not go over the eyes. 50Mhz machines are used in ocular therapy. Not these units and the intensities are in the 1000+J/cm2

There are studies looking at retinal damage, but the intensities are again, extremely high.

Units are available and sold at 1 Mhz, Skindream is the cream of the crop with those specs...so...

I will be knocking on our Nuclear Physics man's door this week...with tools in hand...LOL...he's going to kick my butt Laughing

...but I think I have the answer....I just want to confirm with him.

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 5:15 am

I have the Bellaire 2Mhz - when I bought it, probably around the same time as Bethany bought hers, there were a number of threads discussing the power of ultrasound and the general consensus of opinion was that 1Mhz was a no-no for the face. Then along came the Skindream Titanium. Anyway, 2Mhz seems to be a good compromise!

I agree with Bethany, it's as exciting as watching grass grow. And as for results, can't say I've ever noticed any improvement from using it (but then what else is new?) My only positive thought is that Dr. Fernandes does recommend ultrasound for product penetration - and I respect his opinion.

I'm currently using the Rankines Treatment Gel which can also be left on the skin. But Dragon I would appreciate a recipe for a SIMPLE gel which doesn't have to be washed off. Water and Aloe Vera would be good - but I find Aloe dries too quickly. I want a gel that doesn't dry to quickly or go too sticky. What else could be added to achieve that?

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 5:38 am

Forgot to say that when my Father (a retired research chemist) was alive I asked him how to make a conductive gel and he said it should contain some sort of salts - but now I can't remember exactly what he said and I never got around to making it anyway.

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 5:47 am

Keliu wrote:

Forgot to say that when my Father (a retired research chemist) was alive I asked him how to make a conductive gel and he said it should contain some sort of salts - but now I can't remember exactly what he said and I never got around to making it anyway.

Disclaimer I have yet to own one! Question

Here are the instructions on the Ultra Renew at TIA:

Ultrasonic mode:

You must use either a conductive gel (pure aloe vera is good), water or facial mist to keep the skin moistened as you move the device. This allows the ultrasonic waves to conduct through the skin. Ultrasonic helps topical anti-aging serums to more effectively penetrate the skin. You may apply a serum of your choice before applying the gel, water or mist.

1. Apply serum of choice, followed by gel, water or mist.
2. Allow 4 minutes for each side of the face (for a total of 8 minutes). Please use your watch or a timer.
3. With your Ultra Renew switched on, select the sonic button. Then, select intensity by pressing the sonic button again. (Note: even at "high", the device should not feel hot, only a little warm.)
4. The ultrasonic wave generator must be pressed flat against the skin.
5. Move the ultrasonic wave generator firmly and slowly (e.g.: it takes 5 - 8 seconds from the chin, along the jaw to your ear).

http://www.truthinaging.com/truth-in-aging-ultra-renew-ultrasonic-led

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 9:14 am

DragoN wrote:

Luminosity,

I hope you can get more concrete answers from Sing Hong, but I don't think so. Those answers aren't out there in black and white. He's doing the best he can based on what is available. I can't fault him for that.

Regarding that unit, I've seen that unit advertised here as well. It's quite a common one. I personally passed on it, The transducer head is really small as a result of the LED array. Wait, there are better things out there. I found some nice simple 3 Mhz and 5 Mhz with multiple setting units. Will test those as well.

Several manufacturers are adamantly assuring me that the 1 Mhz is safe. Define "safe" for me please? LOL...I am really picky. So, Sing Hong is in the same boat.

I am pretty certain that they are fine, as long as not abused. 5 mins. Not 30. I prefer the low heat as opposed to the hi heat. My bias. doesn't mean I'm right though
Bone attenuates very effectively...lots of bone on my face. My concern is the eyes. Do Not go over the eyes. 50Mhz machines are used in ocular therapy. Not these units and the intensities are in the 1000+J/cm2

There are studies looking at retinal damage, but the intensities are again, extremely high.

Units are available and sold at 1 Mhz, Skindream is the cream of the crop with those specs...so...

I will be knocking on our Nuclear Physics man's door this week...with tools in hand...LOL...he's going to kick my butt Laughing

...but I think I have the answer....I just want to confirm with him.

Can't wait for your report after your visit with him!

And really am hoping to get more info on which unit you personally use (Is it the Skindream? I can't tell if this is the one you are testing/ using or if you are simply referencing this as the best of the best).

If there are less expensive alternatives that would be fantastic but perhaps I am dreaming. The Skindream is rather out of my price range.

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 10:06 am

Quote:

Is it the Skindream?

No...same specs different material in the transducer [ stainless] and lower J/cm2. No where near the insane price for that sliver of titanium.

AND:

J Athl Train. 2004 Jul-Sep; 39(3): 230–234.

PMCID: PMC522144
Copyright © by the National Athletic Trainers' Association, Inc
Three-MHz Ultrasound Heats Deeper Into the Tissues Than Originally Theorized
Objective:
To measure muscle temperature of ultrasound at 1-MHz and 3-MHz frequencies at a depth of 2.5 cm and to compare treatment durations for vigorous heating (increase of 4°C) and for heating to 40°C.
Design and Setting:
A counterbalanced, repeated-measures design with 1 fixed, independent variable, 1.5-W/cm2 ultrasound treatment (1 MHz, 3 MHz, or control [sham]) using a Theratouch 7.7 ultrasound device. Dependent variables were end-treatment temperature at 2.5 cm, time to vigorous heating, and time to reach 40°C.
Subjects:
Eighteen healthy volunteers (age = 24.6 ± 2.3 years, height = 173.0 ± 9.7 cm, mass = 72.0 ± 16.3 kg) without a history of lower leg injury.
Measurements:
The medial triceps surae intramuscular temperature at 2.5 cm was measured every 10 seconds using an implantable thermocouple. Each of the 3 ultrasound frequencies was applied in counterbalanced order at 24-hour intervals.
Results:
Ultrasound of 3 MHz produced both vigorous heating (at 3.4 minutes) and an absolute temperature of 40°C (at 4 minutes).
Conclusions:
Our results suggest that 3-MHz ultrasound heats 0.5 cm deeper than suggested by others. With our machine, 3-MHz ultrasound was more effective in heating muscle at this depth than 1-MHz ultrasound.

Using the ultrasound device studied here, continuous 1.5-W/cm2 ultrasound treatment for 10 minutes at a frequency of 1 MHz produced neither vigorous heating (increase of 4°C) nor an absolute tissue temperature of 40°C in tissues at a depth of 2.5 cm (Table, Figure). On the other hand, 3-MHz ultrasound produced both vigorous heating (increase of 4°C) and an absolute intramuscular tissue temperature in excess of 40°C at a depth of 2.5 cm. Vigorous heating (increase of 4°C) was achieved at an average of 3.35 ± 1.23 minutes, whereas absolute intramuscular tissue temperature of 40°C was accomplished at an average of 4.13 ± 1.69 minutes with 3-MHz ultrasound. Thus, the rate of heating with a frequency of 3 MHz was 1.19°C/min at a depth of 2.5 cm.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC522144/

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 10:25 am

You know, DragoN, you're killing me here.. Laughing

I just looked up the Theratouch 7.7 and it's over $4000! Ok, now the Skindream is sounding more reasonable. Or at least for some!

But... It is great to know that info on the 3 Mhz. It gives one hope...

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 10:34 am

Luminosity, from a safety perspective, the data suggest strongly that 1 Mhz is the better alternative. The heat profile on the 3 Mhz is massive compared to 1 Mhz and the depths are the same. The advertising blurbs are stating contrary to the research.

Ultrasound is not only the heat, but the non thermal effect of the wave that kicks off cellular response. Heat over time is not the greatest.

Run it past Sing hong again...curious what he comes up with...show him the research...

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 10:38 am

DragoN wrote:

Luminosity, from a safety perspective, the data suggest strongly that 1 Mhz is the better alternative. The heat profile on the 3 Mhz is massive compared to 1 Mhz and the depths are the same. The advertising blurbs are stating contrary to the research.

Ultrasound is not only the heat, but the non thermal effect of the wave that kicks off cellular response. Heat over time is not the greatest.

Run it past Sing hong again...curious what he comes up with...show him the research...

Ahh... ok. Got it. I will see what he says. Thanks for clarifying that.

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 10:46 am

Luminosity wrote:

DragoN wrote:

Luminosity, from a safety perspective, the data suggest strongly that 1 Mhz is the better alternative. The heat profile on the 3 Mhz is massive compared to 1 Mhz and the depths are the same. The advertising blurbs are stating contrary to the research.

Ultrasound is not only the heat, but the non thermal effect of the wave that kicks off cellular response. Heat over time is not the greatest.

Run it past Sing hong again...curious what he comes up with...show him the research...

Ahh... ok. Got it. I will see what he says. Thanks for clarifying that.

Just now sent him an email and I included the recent article you just posted here. I am crossing my fingers... Tried to be as polite as I could while asking him to provide clarification and or research to support their claim that the 3 Mhz is better for the face. We'll see...

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 2:01 pm

Here is an article I just found...pretty easy to read, though I am not sure if the info is still current.

http://www.dermaconcepts.com/documents/0000/0193/LNEAlookatultrasonicmachinesandesthetics01.07SS.pdf

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 2:57 pm

Thank you Luminosity for e-mailing. Smile

Soooooo if ultrasound is increasing penetration of actives it seems wise to carefully choose what you apply pre and post, just as you would with a dermaroller. Potentially you are increasing penetration of ingredients other than the actives, preservatives and so on. Ideally a commercial product with a short ingredients list or a DIY gel/ serum. Presumably not anything too acidic or alkaline?

DragoN when you say do not go over the eyes do you mean not over the eyeball? Could you raise your eyebrows and go over all the skin above the brow bone, as I think some do with a dermaroller? And what about the under eye area?

I don't understand physics so please dumb it down big time when you get to that. Embarassed

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 3:06 pm

Firefox7275 wrote:

Soooooo if ultrasound is increasing penetration of actives it seems wise to carefully choose what you apply pre and post, just as you would with a dermaroller. Potentially you are increasing penetration of ingredients other than the actives, preservatives and so on. Ideally a commercial product with a short ingredients list or a DIY gel/ serum. Presumably not anything too acidic or alkaline?

They address some of that in the article I just posted right above your reply.

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 4:57 pm

I gave up looking for an effective at home machine after discussing this several well known/respected dermatologists and skin researchers, including those without a financial interest.

From what I understand, the problem with most at home devices is that in order to get past FDA safety requirements, they must be of very low power which intrinsically limits their effectiveness, whether ultrasound, LEDs (Light Emitting Diodes), Microdermabrasion, etc.

BFG

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 6:19 pm

thanks
thats a good idea.

I realized that the more I try, the worse it gets. I got sick and injured my ear/face, migraines etc and did not put anything on my face, stopped the TUA and CP's etc. I actually looked better, and I was zombie dead sick, lol.

Sometimes less is more. I actually think the TUA might have added to my injury, based on a nerve issue I have. My bad. Bad skincare cat, lol

thanks for the post.

hotdocgirl wrote:

skincarecat wrote:

Hello
Also, funny, it seems the less I do, the better I am. I stopped Tua after injury to face, eased up on CP's and am just using a serum (Source Naturals I think) and some Lightstim here and there, and look less BLAH, lol

Any comments would be great. I was eager for STOP/POSE but they are so expensive and the reviews are just not great.

thanks-if we could start a simple list with product name-and result that would help a lot. I am having hard time searchign whole site since I have migraines/ear infection, and head injury right now. GREAT I KNOW, lol....I'm sexy and I know it, ha ha
have a great weekend everyone....excuse the typing, I cant see well.

I find taking days off from cp's makes my skin look better. I take weekends off..it gives my skin time for the remodling to take effect.

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 9:31 pm

Bethany

Quote:

Here is an article I just found...pretty easy to read, though I am not sure if the info is still current.

The article is a sales brochure for the Environ machine.

The 2 Mhz and 11 mm depth appear to be in direct conflict with the research I posted. There were no references in the brochure to back up the statements made there.

Here, there is a medical company, certified by Canada health [ like that means anything ] That is selling 1 Mhz units.

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