Review: The Concise Guide to Dermal Needling
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free skin care · Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:19 pm

Keliu wrote:

Tiny wrote:

This maybe a really stupid question so forgive if it is. But how long has this practice been around and studied. I have such a hard time wrapping my head around, wounding ones face to heal it and thus un-do other damage. I am Not knocking it, I promise, I just can't grasp how in the LONG run this is not doing more damage that will then need to be undone again. Or have studies been around long enough to show this is not the case? I saw Bethanys pics with the patches and her skins amazing, so again, I can't say a bad thing, but really curious.

You need to catch up on all the reading - start here!:

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860

ty! I will carry on, I've read till my eyes pop out. But thanks that shows 1997! well there ya go

free skin care · Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:25 am

I've been rolling for about five years, and it's never done me any harm. The principle is basically the same as that of a fractional laser - just more primitive.

free skin care · Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:55 am

bethany wrote:

catski wrote:

I haven't read the book and have been rolling for a few years now. I rolled stretch marks, mainly, deep abdominal ones. I applied supercop afterwards, it itched like crazy. But I got huge improvements from each time I did this. I still need to do it more.. So I'm intrigued that I should be waiting for day 5 before I apply the cp's. Why the wait? And what to do for those 5 days? Is it something we could discuss here, or should I get the book? If its available in the UK?

Catski, supposedly 5 days into the wound healing cycle is best for CPs due to their impact on fibroblasts. A & C are the top actives to apply after a roll (as well as during the 3-4 weeks of prep before a roll).

Basically the book focuses on Dr. F's rolling protocol (Dr. S studied under him), but he also includes a nice overview on the wound healing cascade, rolling frequency/needle length, and what topicals should be considerered. It's everything spread across a gazillion articles rolled into one little book.

I misplaced mine, and actually just ordered a 2nd copy.

Hi Bethany, I can't quite fathom how I didn't see your message last time I came back to this thread.. Wink

so apologies for not thanking you before! Thankyou for the info. The book isn't available on amazon uk.. But I get the gist of what you are saying. I need to follow the protocol that is at owndoc, basically.. Then add cp from day 5 and I can use my Lightstim post roll..
Essentially what I had/ have on my abdomen are the " striae" type of sm's.. The worst ones ! So the treatment is fairly arduous, and like with everything I don't do it consistently enough. But I'm gearing up for another round. Perhaps this time I will do it even more effectively, thanks to you here sharing up to date information.

free skin care · Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:04 am

Keliu wrote:

I've been rolling for about five years, and it's never done me any harm. The principle is basically the same as that of a fractional laser - just more primitive.

5 years works for me! and your skin looks amazing btw! thanks

free skin care · Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:45 pm

bethany wrote:

I originally started out with a 1.5mm roller, but after reading more and more research became convinced that longer did not mean better. The article I sent you via pm was one of the confirmations from Dr. F that 1mm was just as effective, and they are now suggesting that .5mm may be enough to stimulate collagen production as well.

In the book they define .2 or .3 as a pentration or cosmetic roll, and .5mm or higher as a medical roll.

I'm thinking in my particular case, for my face, there is a happy medium between .05 and 1mm rollers in order to achieve collagen synthesis.

Does the book state any clear cut signs or symptoms to look for, which would confirm you hit the target for CIT?

free skin care · Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:04 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

bethany wrote:

I originally started out with a 1.5mm roller, but after reading more and more research became convinced that longer did not mean better. The article I sent you via pm was one of the confirmations from Dr. F that 1mm was just as effective, and they are now suggesting that .5mm may be enough to stimulate collagen production as well.

In the book they define .2 or .3 as a pentration or cosmetic roll, and .5mm or higher as a medical roll.

I'm thinking in my particular case, for my face, there is a happy medium between .05 and 1mm rollers in order to achieve collagen synthesis.

Does the book state any clear cut signs or symptoms to look for, which would confirm you hit the target for CIT?

Kassy, research I have read shows that collagen shows up at about .6 mm deep once it develops...that might be why they say that 1mm does generates collagen, and .5mm "might" generate collagen. I'll check the book for you once I get back home (I'm traveling for work right now).

free skin care · Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:06 pm

bethany wrote:

Kassy_A wrote:

bethany wrote:

I originally started out with a 1.5mm roller, but after reading more and more research became convinced that longer did not mean better. The article I sent you via pm was one of the confirmations from Dr. F that 1mm was just as effective, and they are now suggesting that .5mm may be enough to stimulate collagen production as well.

In the book they define .2 or .3 as a pentration or cosmetic roll, and .5mm or higher as a medical roll.

I'm thinking in my particular case, for my face, there is a happy medium between .05 and 1mm rollers in order to achieve collagen synthesis.

Does the book state any clear cut signs or symptoms to look for, which would confirm you hit the target for CIT?

Kassy, research I have read shows that collagen shows up at about .6 mm deep once it develops...that might be why they say that 1mm does generates collagen, and .5mm "might" generate collagen. I'll check the book for you once I get back home (I'm traveling for work right now).

So here I sit with the .75mm & 1mm rollers in my ebay cart... Eenie, meanie, miny, mo... Confused

I'm tending to think the .75 will be perfect for my cheeks & jawline. I just don't think the .05 is enough in those areas.

I'm also on the fence about whether or not to buy the book. I have read every possible article + paper I could find, so I'm not sure I need the book if it's just re-hashing what I've already absorbed.. Then again, I love books, and it would be nice to have it at the ready to reference..

So how did your last roll go Beth? Have you noticed any differences (positive or negative) that could point to your use of the Environ products?

Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:50 pm

Maybe this has been answered in one of the other derma rolling/needling threads (there are so many) but do you think it's okay to put on retin-a and then roll? I did this last night with tretinoin gel .5% and a 1mm dermaroller hoping the retin would penetrate into the dermis.

As I've said other places, I'm on a mission to rid myself of this one sudden nasolabial line that appeared about a week or two ago. I have a little bit of peeling today around the mouth, but nothing horrible. I'll probably try rolling about 2x a week at first.

Am I being crazy?

free skin care · Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:52 pm

MichelleRme wrote:

Maybe this has been answered in one of the other derma rolling/needling threads (there are so many) but do you think it's okay to put on retin-a and then roll? I did this last night with tretinoin gel .5% and a 1mm dermaroller hoping the retin would penetrate into the dermis.

As I've said other places, I'm on a mission to rid myself of this one sudden nasolabial line that appeared about a week or two ago. I have a little bit of peeling today around the mouth, but nothing horrible. I'll probably try rolling about 2x a week at first.

Am I being crazy?

Others can speak to the Retin A (I dont use it), but you do not want to roll with a 1mm roller 2X per week. It is my understanding that you need about 6 weeks between deeper rolls.

free skin care · Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:23 pm

Erg is correct. If you want to roll two times per week you should be using a cosmetic roller, not a medical one. However, I also would not be rolling in Retin-A. Retin-A is a drug and I think its best not to increase the rate of penetration.

free skin care · Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:44 pm

MichelleRme wrote:

Maybe this has been answered in one of the other derma rolling/needling threads (there are so many) but do you think it's okay to put on retin-a and then roll? I did this last night with tretinoin gel .5% and a 1mm dermaroller hoping the retin would penetrate into the dermis.

As I've said other places, I'm on a mission to rid myself of this one sudden nasolabial line that appeared about a week or two ago. I have a little bit of peeling today around the mouth, but nothing horrible. I'll probably try rolling about 2x a week at first.

Am I being crazy?

I would really recommend that you buy the book. There is far more to dermarolling than you might realize...if you want the best results, you need to do it correctly. That means the right needle length, the right topicals used in a prep period before you start rolling, the right rolling frequency, and the right post roll topicals.

free skin care · Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:51 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

So here I sit with the .75mm & 1mm rollers in my ebay cart... Eenie, meanie, miny, mo... Confused

I'm tending to think the .75 will be perfect for my cheeks & jawline. I just don't think the .05 is enough in those areas.

I'm also on the fence about whether or not to buy the book. I have read every possible article + paper I could find, so I'm not sure I need the book if it's just re-hashing what I've already absorbed.. Then again, I love books, and it would be nice to have it at the ready to reference..

So how did your last roll go Beth? Have you noticed any differences (positive or negative) that could point to your use of the Environ products?

Kassy, my last roll went fine but wasn't quite as intense as I would have liked. (well, except for where I used the dermastamp!) I don't expect to see any changes for 4 months or so...anything earlier than that is just inflammation.

I like the Environ products and based on the irritation I see if I overuse them, they appear to have high levels of actives. But I don't know if they are necessarily better than anything else...I just happen to like that the A and C are combined, and the serum doesn't make me feel greasy. I am going to keep plugging away, and still hope to get a Visia done soon if I can get a darn day off!

Re: the book...it is a great reference, but pricey. Maybe hold out until the ebook comes out? Or PM me with any specific questions you may have.

free skin care · Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:09 pm

Bethany, do you happen to know if, in regard to pre-rolling (a 1.00mm roll, that is) prep protocol, Dr. Fernandes suggests the Environ C-Quence to be applied once per day, or twice? I read in one of his articles that the vitamin A levels in our skin need to be replaced daily, so I wasn't sure if that meant just one application. Would you know, offhand?

I've started using my C-Quence and I like it very much so far...nice texture, no irritation. I dermaroll with .2mm and then apply it every night. I'm planning to pick up the Environ Retinol soon as well. I want to amp my Vitamin A levels as much as possible before the roll.

free skin care · Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:22 pm

EthelM wrote:

Bethany, do you happen to know if, in regard to pre-rolling (a 1.00mm roll, that is) prep protocol, Dr. Fernandes suggests the Environ C-Quence to be applied once per day, or twice? I read in one of his articles that the vitamin A levels in our skin need to be replaced daily, so I wasn't sure if that meant just one application. Would you know, offhand?

I've started using my C-Quence and I like it very much so far...nice texture, no irritation. I dermaroll with .2mm and then apply it every night. I'm planning to pick up the Environ Retinol soon as well. I want to amp my Vitamin A levels as much as possible before the roll.

The recommended usage for the C-Quence line is 2x day, so I would assume that any prep period would be 2x day if you are using C-Q. I experienced some significant redness with C-Q2, so cut back to using it once a day and did a heavy Retin-A application one day a week.

Now I am at C-Q3 at 1 or 2x times a day, and do the Retin A every other week. But I get very red with more than that, and the .2mm really isn't an option for me. Sad

free skin care · Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:28 pm

I'll up it to twice a day. Why can't you use the .2mm (for product penetration)? Although, I don't think I'd personally use it with Retin-A, as I can see how that might be too irritating, just with the C-Quence. I was hoping to get away with using the C-Quence just once daily since I do roll with it, and dread rolling twice daily (it doesn't hurt but it does feel creepy, frankly) but I really want to do this first big needling right, so twice a day C-Quence it is! Thanks, Bethany!

free skin care · Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:36 pm

EthelM wrote:

I'll up it to twice a day. Why can't you use the .2mm (for product penetration)? Although, I don't think I'd personally use it with Retin-A, as I can see how that might be too irritating, just with the C-Quence. I was hoping to get away with using the C-Quence just once daily since I do roll with it, and dread rolling twice daily (it doesn't hurt but it does feel creepy, frankly) but I really want to do this first big needling right, so twice a day C-Quence it is! Thanks, Bethany!

I'd be inclined to just roll once a day with the .2mm. Twice a day might be overkill.

free skin care · Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:58 pm

Keliu wrote:

Twice a day might be overkill.

Agree. Definite overkill. Dr F only recommends nightly use (after you have built up to it) of the small roller.

free skin care · Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:46 am

Oh, thanks, Rileygirl and Keliu, good to know and welcomed news! Smile

I was concerned that not enough C-Quence would penetrate if I didn't roll my skin first. Thanks again!

free skin care · Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:02 pm

EthelM wrote:

I'll up it to twice a day. Why can't you use the .2mm (for product penetration)? Although, I don't think I'd personally use it with Retin-A, as I can see how that might be too irritating, just with the C-Quence. I was hoping to get away with using the C-Quence just once daily since I do roll with it, and dread rolling twice daily (it doesn't hurt but it does feel creepy, frankly) but I really want to do this first big needling right, so twice a day C-Quence it is! Thanks, Bethany!

Ethel, I get very inflammed and red for 3 days after rolling with a .2mm...even if I don't use any actives. So because I don't want ongoing inflammation, I just do the long-needle rolls periodically and skip the penetration rolling.

free skin care · Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:56 pm

Oh, I see, Bethany. Great point about avoiding persistent inflammation!

free skin care · Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:01 pm

EthelM wrote:

Oh, thanks, Rileygirl and Keliu, good to know and welcomed news! Smile

I was concerned that not enough C-Quence would penetrate if I didn't roll my skin first. Thanks again!

EthelM - I was using the .2mm roller every night as well, but I've decided to switch to the .5mm every second or third night. I get kind of worried about too much of a good thing Confused

And as an aside, I could never have done this before Lifeline, so maybe my skin is thicker, but neither the .2 or the .5 cause much redness immediately after the roll, and there is absolutely no residual redness the next day. I'm also only doing one side of my face - kind of a test - mostly for product penetration.

free skin care · Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:14 pm

It's "D" day! Time for my 2nd .05mm treatment.

I applied the most disgusting vitamin mask last night (to really ramp up the goodies in my skin), that the lingering smell sent Mr Kassy to sleep in the guest room... Laughing

Poor guy has had the month from hell.. He said, and I quote; "I thought you'd be over this $h!t quick! Tell me again why it's good to poke thousands of holes in your face?"

Gotta love my sweetie

free skin care · Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:58 pm

Panda1 wrote:

EthelM wrote:

Oh, thanks, Rileygirl and Keliu, good to know and welcomed news! Smile

I was concerned that not enough C-Quence would penetrate if I didn't roll my skin first. Thanks again!

EthelM - I was using the .2mm roller every night as well, but I've decided to switch to the .5mm every second or third night. I get kind of worried about too much of a good thing Confused

And as an aside, I could never have done this before Lifeline, so maybe my skin is thicker, but neither the .2 or the .5 cause much redness immediately after the roll, and there is absolutely no residual redness the next day. I'm also only doing one side of my face - kind of a test - mostly for product penetration.

I've been using the .2mm nightly, and then immediately applying C-Quence. I am red, akin to a sunburn, for no longer than a half hour afterwards. The redness quickly subsides. I don't use any growth factor/cytokine/stem cell products, but I do use estriol cream, and have been for some time now. That may help my quick recovery/skin thickness, as I do have fair skin and am indeed very prone to redness. I have decided to use the C-Quence with rolling nightly---just once per day, and the estriol in the morning, as I don't want to give up the estriol but also don't want to roll in any adverse ingredients, and the estriol cream was obviously not designed for use with rolling. In four to six weeks, I will do a 1.00 roll.

(Edited to add: I am using C-Quence 4. I wanted to ramp up as much as possible prior to a big roll, so my lack of any serious or lasting redness with the .2mm is kind of surprising.)

free skin care · Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:23 pm

EthelM wrote:

(Edited to add: I am using C-Quence 4. I wanted to ramp up as much as possible prior to a big roll, so my lack of any serious or lasting redness with the .2mm is kind of surprising.)

Holy cow....I can barely tolerate the C-Q3 and I have been using Environ since the end of May!

free skin care · Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:34 am

bethany wrote:

EthelM wrote:

(Edited to add: I am using C-Quence 4. I wanted to ramp up as much as possible prior to a big roll, so my lack of any serious or lasting redness with the .2mm is kind of surprising.)

Holy cow....I can barely tolerate the C-Q3 and I have been using Environ since the end of May!

I know, Bethany! I was actually reluctant to order the C-Quence 4 after reading your posts about it, thinking it would be far too strong for me, but then I decided to bite the bullet and get it. I figured I'd use it every other day of it was too much for my skin, but I really wanted to load my skin as much as possible. So, this has been a pleasant surprise.

I really do have fair, sensitive skin, and in fact, one of the reasons I don't use Retin-A is because my face turns beet red and very irritated, and it stays that way. With the C-Quence and rolling, the redness is gone in a half hour. And, I do know my bottle of C-Quence is active (and not defective somehow) because when I first put the C-Q4 on, it does make my skin quite red...but the redness soon subsides, so it doesn't bother me.

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