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Why does a different cleanser get rid of fine lines?
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egyptiangoddess
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Mon May 28, 2012 3:59 am      Reply with quote
I was using Olay sensitive foaming face wash and it was so drying and made me look so aged! Then I started experimenting with Aveeno clear complexion foaming face wash (which I used to use all the time) and it gets rid of most of my fine lines and I look a lot better with this one. (Except the lines between my brows from chronic pain. Confused )

The Aveeno clear complexion one is only a bit less drying than the Olay sensitive one. Is it ONLY that that's helping the fine lines? Or is it because the Aveeno one contains 0.5% Salicylic acid? Or perhaps it's a combination of both? Does anyone else get this effect from cleansers with BHA/AHA? Or is just because it's slightly less drying? (And yes, I am aware of what Paula Begoun says about cleansers with BHA/AHA lol.)

I also thought it might have something to do with PH. I looked up the PH of the Olay sensitive foaming face wash, and found a few places that listed its PH at 6.6-7.35. (I don't know if that is true or not.) Here's a link to some cleansers and their PH: http://www.dianayvonne.com/category/11.thephofcommoncleanser/

And I'm assuming the Aveeno one with Salicylic acid is probably around 3.5-4.5? (I don't know much about PH but I assumed that based on the PH of other cleansers with Salicylic acid. Though those ones would probably have 2% SA and this one only has 0.5% SA.) I assume trending towards more acidic vs more alkaline is better for our skin based on what I learned about PH from here: http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=18360. Our skin doing best at a PH of 4.5-5.5, correct me if I am wrong. I assume the Olay sensitive face wash damaged my acid mantle as well as being too drying, and I assume the Aveeno clear complexion face wash probably helps my acid mantle better than the Olay sensitive one? Again, please correct me if I am wrong!

And I'm not sensitive to sulphates in case anyone says anything about sulphates.

Any thoughts? TIA everyone. Smile
Firefox7275
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Mon May 28, 2012 4:08 am      Reply with quote
pH can play a role tho that is generally with fairly alkaline products - eg. traditional soaps. 0.5% SA won't do anything at all. What are the ingredients of each product and/ or what type of surfactants - anionic, non-ionic, amphoteric?

ETA: found the Aveeno - there is your answer, cocoamidopropyl betaine (amphoteric) is one of the gentlest surfactants and it's only the third ingredient. I'd guess that is an acidic formula due to the citric acid.
"Salicylic Acid (0.5%), Inactive Ingredients: Butylene Glycol, Citric Acid, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Disodium EDTA, Disodium Lauroamphodiacetate, Fragrance, Glycerin, Glycine Soja (Soybean) Protein, PEG-16 Soy Sterol, PEG-6 Caprylic/Capric Glycerides, Polysorbate 20, Sodium Benzoate, Sodium C14-C16 Olefin 1 Sorbitol, Water, Xanthan Gum"

And the Olay, the emboldened are all anionic
"WATER, GLYCERIN, SODIUM MYRISTOYL SARCOSINATE, PEG-120 METHYL GLUCOSE DIOLEATE, SODIUM LAUROAMPHOACETATE, ALOE BARBADENSIS LEAF JUICE, POLYQUATERNIUM-10, PEG-150 PENTAERYTHRITYL TETRASTEARATE, GLYCOL DISTEARATE, SODIUM LAURETH SULFATE, COCAMIDE MEA, LAURETH-10, DISODIUM LAUROAMPHODIACETATE, SODIUM TRIDECETH SULFATE, CITRIC ACID, DISODIUM EDTA, PHENOXYETHANOL, DMDM HYDANTOIN"

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Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim.
egyptiangoddess
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Mon May 28, 2012 4:32 am      Reply with quote
Firefox7275 wrote:
pH can play a role tho that is generally with fairly alkaline products - eg. traditional soaps. 0.5% SA won't do anything at all. What are the ingredients of each product and/ or what type of surfactants - anionic, non-ionic, amphoteric?

ETA: found the Aveeno - there is your answer, cocoamidopropyl betaine (amphoteric) is one of the gentlest surfactants and it's only the third ingredient. I'd guess that is an acidic formula due to the citric acid.
"Salicylic Acid (0.5%), Inactive Ingredients: Butylene Glycol, Citric Acid, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Disodium EDTA, Disodium Lauroamphodiacetate, Fragrance, Glycerin, Glycine Soja (Soybean) Protein, PEG-16 Soy Sterol, PEG-6 Caprylic/Capric Glycerides, Polysorbate 20, Sodium Benzoate, Sodium C14-C16 Olefin 1 Sorbitol, Water, Xanthan Gum"

And the Olay, the emboldened are all anionic
"WATER, GLYCERIN, SODIUM MYRISTOYL SARCOSINATE, PEG-120 METHYL GLUCOSE DIOLEATE, SODIUM LAUROAMPHOACETATE, ALOE BARBADENSIS LEAF JUICE, POLYQUATERNIUM-10, PEG-150 PENTAERYTHRITYL TETRASTEARATE, GLYCOL DISTEARATE, SODIUM LAURETH SULFATE, COCAMIDE MEA, LAURETH-10, DISODIUM LAUROAMPHODIACETATE, SODIUM TRIDECETH SULFATE, CITRIC ACID, DISODIUM EDTA, PHENOXYETHANOL, DMDM HYDANTOIN"


I am unfamiliar with different surfactants being anionic, non-ionic, and amphoteric. Confused

The Olay ingredients list you have is correct and the Aveeno ingredient list you have isn't correct. I'll type out what the ingredient list is on my bottle. Smile

Aveeno clear complexion foaming cleanser:

Water, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Disodium Lauroamphodiacetate, Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate, Sorbitol, Glycerin, Polysorbate 20, PEG-6, Caprylic/Capric Glycerides, Salicylic acid, Sodium Benzoate, Citric Acid, Xanthan Gum, Disodium EDTA, PEG-16 Soy Sterol, Glycine Soja (Soybean) Protein, Butylene Glycol, Parfum.
Firefox7275
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Mon May 28, 2012 4:42 am      Reply with quote
Funnily enough I don't know them all because I am not a walking encyclopedia, sometimes I have to Google! Laughing Anionics are very drying and many are irritant, with sulphates being top of the tree. Cationics (found in moisturisers and conditioners) are generally emollient or at least non stripping but they don't really foam. The non-ionics and amphoterics (can behave as cationic or anionic depending on the formula) are mostly gentle but some have a very alkaline pH so have to be used in acidic formulations. Aveeno is still based on amphoteric cocoamidopropyl betaine, IIRC sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate is anionic, I *think* Disodium Lauroamphodiacetate is a foam booster which cocoamidopropyl generally needs.

Assuming the Olay pH you found is correct it isn't much different to water (~7) so I doubt that is as relevant as the surfactants.

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Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim.
egyptiangoddess
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Mon May 28, 2012 4:52 am      Reply with quote
Firefox7275 wrote:
Funnily enough I don't know them all because I am not a walking encyclopedia, sometimes I have to Google! Laughing Anionics are very drying and many are irritant, with sulphates being top of the tree. Cationics (found in moisturisers and conditioners) are generally emollient or at least non stripping but they don't really foam. The non-ionics and amphoterics (can behave as cationic or anionic depending on the formula) are mostly gentle but some have a very alkaline pH so have to be used in acidic formulations. Aveeno is still based on amphoteric cocoamidopropyl betaine, IIRC sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate is anionic, I *think* Disodium Lauroamphodiacetate is a foam booster which cocoamidopropyl generally needs.

Assuming the Olay pH you found is correct it isn't much different to water (~7) so I doubt that is as relevant as the surfactants.


Ok. The emboldened part is probably correct as the Aveeno cleanser comes out as foam.

So you think my skin looks better/less fine lines with the Aveeno one because it is more gentle? Is that what you're saying? It does feel more gentle and less stripping. Do you think it looks like a safe cleanser to use or is it still not good because it has the C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate which is anionic? I'm unsure of the PH being ok, if it's acidic. Confused
Firefox7275
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Mon May 28, 2012 5:08 am      Reply with quote
egyptiangoddess wrote:

Ok. The emboldened part is probably correct as the Aveeno cleanser comes out as foam.

So you think my skin looks better/less fine lines with the Aveeno one because it is more gentle? Is that what you're saying? It does feel more gentle and less stripping. Do you think it looks like a safe cleanser to use or is it still not good because it has the C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate which is anionic? I'm unsure of the PH being ok, if it's acidic. Confused


I think the Olay was stripping your skin, not just the lipids on the surface but the lipids within the skin. Not sure why you think you are not sulphate sensitive - they are known irritants, even at 1% in an emollient base (moisturiser) they can thin healthy skin and increase TEWL (dehydration). AFAIK that level of irritancy is not an issue with other anionics so there may well be little enough sodium olefin sulfonate not to be an issue. I rate cocoamidopropyl betaine so on ingredients alone I'd have picked that of the two.

Healthy skin is acidic at pH ~5.5, but can generally be happy from 4.5 to 6.5 (and sometimes outside that because some skin types reset better than others). With the new ingredients list I'd guesstimate the Aveeno is somewhere between 5.5 and 7. Regardless your skin is telling you it is a lot happier and it may even continue to improve! Cool

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Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim.
egyptiangoddess
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Mon May 28, 2012 5:37 am      Reply with quote
Firefox7275 wrote:
I think the Olay was stripping your skin, not just the lipids on the surface but the lipids within the skin. Not sure why you think you are not sulphate sensitive - they are known irritants, even at 1% in an emollient base (moisturiser) they can thin healthy skin and increase TEWL (dehydration). AFAIK that level of irritancy is not an issue with other anionics so there may well be little enough sodium olefin sulfonate not to be an issue. I rate cocoamidopropyl betaine so on ingredients alone I'd have picked that of the two.
Healthy skin is acidic at pH ~5.5, but can generally be happy from 4.5 to 6.5 (and sometimes outside that because some skin types reset better than others). With the new ingredients list I'd guesstimate the Aveeno is somewhere between 5.5 and 7. Regardless your skin is telling you it is a lot happier and it may even continue to improve! Cool


Thank you Firefox, I always appreciate your advice. Can you clarify the emboldened part? I didn't understand what you were trying to say there. It may be because I am half asleep! Laughing

Would you mind also giving me some links regarding sulphates thinning the skin please? (I don't have a reaction to sulphates but thinning the skin concerns me.)

Again, thank you! My skin went to he|| with that olay cleanser honestly. I swear it made me look 100 years old. Some of the discoloration even seems to be clearing with this Aveeno cleanser! I've been so darn depressed so I hope my skin gets better here on out!
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Mon May 28, 2012 6:46 am      Reply with quote
If you daily use a foaming face wash that contains salicylic acid, or any other acid, isn't there a danger that over time you may damage the surface of your eyes?
egyptiangoddess
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Mon May 28, 2012 7:21 am      Reply with quote
Holmes wrote:
If you daily use a foaming face wash that contains salicylic acid, or any other acid, isn't there a danger that over time you may damage the surface of your eyes?


Hi Holmes! What do you mean the surface of your eyes? Do you mean the skin or your eyeballs? If you mean your eyeballs well I'd think it would be safe as long as you don't continually get the face wash in your eyes. Confused And if you mean the skin around your eyes, well BHA's and AHA's stimulate collagen so I'd think it would be a good thing to use anything with BHA/AHA around your eyes too. So long as you have no irritation.
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Mon May 28, 2012 7:57 am      Reply with quote
Hi,
I was thinking of the delicate skin that covers the eyeball.
And I don't see how it would be possible to keep a foaming wash out of the eyes.
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Mon May 28, 2012 8:58 am      Reply with quote
Holmes wrote:
Hi,
I was thinking of the delicate skin that covers the eyeball.
And I don't see how it would be possible to keep a foaming wash out of the eyes.


You mean your eyelids? Well like I said, BHA's and AHA's are supposed to stimulate collagen so I'd think it would be good if anything as long as there was no irritation. But there's probably varying opinions on this. Some do and some don't put certain things on their eyelids. Although I suppose it's not enough BHA to do much and it's on the skin for such a short time.

I don't know what you mean about not being able to keep a foaming face wash out of the eyes. Foaming face washes don't get in my eyes if I keep my eyes closed whilst washing. Confused
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