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Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:18 pm  |
As the vast majority of the people who read this forum know. Dr. J owns a company that makes two anti-aging products using stem cell technology (bone marrow derived mesenchymal stem cells (BM-MSC)). Dr. J likes to post articles about how BM-MSC are being used to improve all kinds of medical conditions. This research is relevant to his skin care products because he hypothesizes that the same improvements and usefulness of BM-MSC that are being experienced in other medical condtions can be applied to the use of BM-MSC in skin care. The hypothesis is that people will experience the same improvements when the BM-MSC is applied topically (I should say that is my interpretation of his hypothesis - maybe he should state his hypthosis himself).
The purpose of this thread is for Dr. J to answer any questions about how all the new stem cell research is relevant to skin care and for him to share the results of his literature reviews on stem cell technology so we can all be enlightened. |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:49 pm |
I thought this was interesting, so I am cross posting on to this thread.
| cm5597 wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
Had a conference with a colleague who studies differential secretomes and transcriptomes of stem cells. This gets down to gene expressions. Lots of new insight into the difference between adipose-derived (AD) and bone marrow-derived (BM)MSC's, in culture, and in vivo. AD-MSC's are far more tuned to inflammatory responses, and inflammatory chemokines, according to their transcriptome. They communicate extensively with mast (immune) cells in fat tissue, involving stimulatory cytokines. They may in fact be responsible for the inflammatory aspect of obesity, that can lead to diabetes, metabolic syndrome, atherosclerosis, etc. Turns out that conditioned medium from adipose stem cells can be "net inflammatory" vs anti-inflammatory (depends on how you treat them in culture). The secretome is geared toward high TGF-beta 1&2 whereas BM-MSC secrete more TGF-beta 3. So, while they are cheaper, and grow more easily in culture, AD-MSC's seem not to be the anti-inflammatory scar-free TGF-beta 3 rich healing powerhouses that BM-MSC's represent. There is also a whole chondrogenic vs. lipogenic orientation aspect to this that speaks to collagen production.
I'm going to pull all this information into a post in the near future. For all you science nerdy types. |
Yes, I think I saw a paper on this in the past few months where the media from adipocytes harvested from obese animals was then applied to lean adipocytes and the net result was an impairment in insulin pathways. That's why I asked earlier about the important distinction between BM- vs AD-MSCs, as I suspect the difference matters quite a bit! |
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_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:56 pm |
Dr. J, I am copying/pasting this from the AnteAGE thread, as I think this subject deserves discussion.
| doodles wrote: |
| If it was me that had uncontrolled tissue growth from one product I would be extremely leery of using another product with pretty much the same ingredients. Doodles |
Why would someone have this uncontrolled tissue growth, and if the BM MSC's caused this, could the AD-MSC's cause this same thing? |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:03 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
Dr. J, I am copying/pasting this from the AnteAGE thread, as I think this subject deserves discussion.
| doodles wrote: |
| If it was me that had uncontrolled tissue growth from one product I would be extremely leery of using another product with pretty much the same ingredients. Doodles |
Why would someone have this uncontrolled tissue growth, and if the BM MSC's caused this, could the AD-MSC's cause this same thing? |
First Riley The doc already said what I KNOW happened was impossible, and second I have no such issues from the ReLuma.
My experience is just that my subjective experience, do you expect an unbiased answer from the seller of the other product?
How is the AA working for you, I have not seen much other than you were only using it on your neck and chest last I recall? |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:11 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
do you expect an unbiased answer from the seller of the other product?
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Yes, DM, I do expect an unbiased answer! This has always been one of my concern with any of the cytokine products, which is why I thought a discussion on this topic would be a good thing. |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:13 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
do you expect an unbiased answer from the seller of the other product?
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Yes, DM, I do expect an unbiased answer! This has always been one of my concern with any of the cytokine products, which is why I thought a discussion on this topic would be a good thing. |
OK. I hope you do get that unbiased answer you are seeking!  |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:17 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
Dr. J, I am copying/pasting this from the AnteAGE thread, as I think this subject deserves discussion.
| doodles wrote: |
| If it was me that had uncontrolled tissue growth from one product I would be extremely leery of using another product with pretty much the same ingredients. Doodles |
Why would someone have this uncontrolled tissue growth, and if the BM MSC's caused this, could the AD-MSC's cause this same thing? |
Of course neither product would or could do that. Not even pure 100% EGF could do that. It is physical friction or pressure that causes callouses.
The very odd statement we are talking about:
I swore I would not post on here, but I can not stay quiet on this MIRACULOUS product! I heal like nobody's business, fast as a speeding bullet, always have and that has not changed with AGE! I had a simple little splinter on my right index finger, cleaned it with Betaine Scrub removed it with STERILE tweezers, cleaned my boo boo with Betadine scrub and applied Betadine solution! Kept it clean and all good right? NO the only thing that I used that was getting on my finger was AnteAGE and I grew the hardest callus I have ever had in my life (58+ years). This just got worse and worse over three weeks time, I had a major overgrowth of tissue happening here. I stopped and now it is finally almost normal. I know it was the AnteAGE, that caused the not so great tissue to overgrow!
Rileygirl, doodles, I think we all know this was a phonied up report based on a physiologic impossibility. Read the statement itself carefully. Childish, really. Then also go back and read the comments made by the same person. Does this person strike you as credible? Doesn't really need a response. Let's spend our time talking about real things. |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:30 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Doesn't really deserve a serious examination. Let's not waste our time on statements devoid of credibility. |
Seriously? You don't think someone having uncontrolled tissue growth is worth some more examination? It sure is in my mind.
I don't care what personal issues you and Darkmoon have with each other, and I do not want to be involved in any of that. Frankly I am sick of seeing all the nasty posts going on lately between all the parties.
But, as a scientist, I would think this is something you would want to examine very carefully or at least take the time to explain to everyone why and/or why not this could happen or what some other explanations could be. |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:34 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Doesn't really deserve a serious examination. Let's not waste our time on statements devoid of credibility. |
Seriously? You don't think someone having uncontrolled tissue growth is worth some more examination? It sure is in my mind.
I don't care what personal issues you and Darkmoon have with each other, and I do not want to be involved in any of that. Frankly I am sick of seeing all the nasty posts going on lately between all the parties.
But, as a scientist, I would think this is something you would want to examine very carefully or at least take the time to explain to everyone why and/or why not this could happen or what some other explanations could be. |
As I explained above, callouses are caused by friction. Pressure induced hyperkeratosis. Not chemicals, except maybe arsenic or pure poisons. Not even pure EGF will do it. That's the whole explanation. |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:42 pm |
| Perhaps "callus" was a poor choice of words on my part, but it was hard tissue overgrowth on a part of my finger which did not experience any friction or new topicals, cleaning products ect. ect. of any sort. Gone now that I stopped the product. |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:52 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| Perhaps "callus" was a poor choice of words on my part, but it was hard tissue overgrowth on a part of my finger which did not experience any friction or new topicals, cleaning products ect. ect. of any sort. Gone now that I stopped the product. |
The story changes once again. We all know what a callous looks like. "It was the hardest callous I ever had in my life" you said. So, obviously, you have had them before. You know just what they look like. |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:32 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
I thought this was interesting, so I am cross posting on to this thread.
| cm5597 wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
Had a conference with a colleague who studies differential secretomes and transcriptomes of stem cells. This gets down to gene expressions. Lots of new insight into the difference between adipose-derived (AD) and bone marrow-derived (BM)MSC's, in culture, and in vivo. AD-MSC's are far more tuned to inflammatory responses, and inflammatory chemokines, according to their transcriptome. They communicate extensively with mast (immune) cells in fat tissue, involving stimulatory cytokines. They may in fact be responsible for the inflammatory aspect of obesity, that can lead to diabetes, metabolic syndrome, atherosclerosis, etc. Turns out that conditioned medium from adipose stem cells can be "net inflammatory" vs anti-inflammatory (depends on how you treat them in culture). The secretome is geared toward high TGF-beta 1&2 whereas BM-MSC secrete more TGF-beta 3. So, while they are cheaper, and grow more easily in culture, AD-MSC's seem not to be the anti-inflammatory scar-free TGF-beta 3 rich healing powerhouses that BM-MSC's represent. There is also a whole chondrogenic vs. lipogenic orientation aspect to this that speaks to collagen production.
I'm going to pull all this information into a post in the near future. For all you science nerdy types. |
Yes, I think I saw a paper on this in the past few months where the media from adipocytes harvested from obese animals was then applied to lean adipocytes and the net result was an impairment in insulin pathways. That's why I asked earlier about the important distinction between BM- vs AD-MSCs, as I suspect the difference matters quite a bit! |
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Another key difference that a colleague pointed out this week is that adipose stem cells are generally retrieved from 40-60 year old humans, the average age for receiving liposuction procedures (the cells are derived from the fat that is suctioned). In contrast the average age for bone marrow aspirate donors is 22 years (they are recruited from the athletic departments of universities). This means the starter cells in ADSC cultures are considerable older than those in BMSC cultures,and have already undergone a number of generations. Since stem cells themselves age (yes, ever get shorter telomeres) it may have something to to with the difference in cytokines expressed. In particular ones like IL-8 which is part of what differentiates fetal wound healing (scarless) from older adult healing (more fibrotic) as well as the TGF-beta family. |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:22 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
I thought this was interesting, so I am cross posting on to this thread.
| cm5597 wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
Had a conference with a colleague who studies differential secretomes and transcriptomes of stem cells. This gets down to gene expressions. Lots of new insight into the difference between adipose-derived (AD) and bone marrow-derived (BM)MSC's, in culture, and in vivo. AD-MSC's are far more tuned to inflammatory responses, and inflammatory chemokines, according to their transcriptome. They communicate extensively with mast (immune) cells in fat tissue, involving stimulatory cytokines. They may in fact be responsible for the inflammatory aspect of obesity, that can lead to diabetes, metabolic syndrome, atherosclerosis, etc. Turns out that conditioned medium from adipose stem cells can be "net inflammatory" vs anti-inflammatory (depends on how you treat them in culture). The secretome is geared toward high TGF-beta 1&2 whereas BM-MSC secrete more TGF-beta 3. So, while they are cheaper, and grow more easily in culture, AD-MSC's seem not to be the anti-inflammatory scar-free TGF-beta 3 rich healing powerhouses that BM-MSC's represent. There is also a whole chondrogenic vs. lipogenic orientation aspect to this that speaks to collagen production.
I'm going to pull all this information into a post in the near future. For all you science nerdy types. |
Yes, I think I saw a paper on this in the past few months where the media from adipocytes harvested from obese animals was then applied to lean adipocytes and the net result was an impairment in insulin pathways. That's why I asked earlier about the important distinction between BM- vs AD-MSCs, as I suspect the difference matters quite a bit! |
|
Another key difference that a colleague pointed out this week is that adipose stem cells are generally retrieved from 40-60 year old humans, the average age for receiving liposuction procedures (the cells are derived from the fat that is suctioned). In contrast the average age for bone marrow aspirate donors is 22 years (they are recruited from the athletic departments of universities). This means the starter cells in ADSC cultures are considerable older than those in BMSC cultures,and have already undergone a number of generations. Since stem cells themselves age (yes, ever get shorter telomeres) it may have something to to with the difference in cytokines expressed. In particular ones like IL-8 which is part of what differentiates fetal wound healing (scarless) from older adult healing (more fibrotic) as well as the TGF-beta family. |
So does this mean products using the fetal cells have an advantage here?
COSMECEUTICALS
NEOCUTIS Bio-restorative Skin Cream, JOURNÉE Bio-restorative Day Cream, LUMIÈRE Bio-restorative Eye Cream and BIO-GEL Bio-restorative Hydrogel are the only products to contain PSP®.
Through years of research, physicians discovered fetal skin has a unique ability to heal wounds without scarring. Inspired by this, medical researchers at the University Hospital of Lausanne, Switzerland created a biotechnology process to extract the rich proteins responsible for scarless wound healing from cultured fetal skin cells. A dedicated cell bank was established for developing new skin treatments using a single biopsy of fetal skin. Originally established for wound healing and burn treatments, today this same cell bank also provides a lasting supply of cells for producing NEOCUTIS proprietary skin care ingredient Processed Skin Cell Proteins (PSP®).
PSP® provides the most complete and balanced combination of human growth factors and cytokines currently available.
http://www.neocutis.com/modules.php?modid=4 |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:13 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
I thought this was interesting, so I am cross posting on to this thread.
| cm5597 wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
Had a conference with a colleague who studies differential secretomes and transcriptomes of stem cells. This gets down to gene expressions. Lots of new insight into the difference between adipose-derived (AD) and bone marrow-derived (BM)MSC's, in culture, and in vivo. AD-MSC's are far more tuned to inflammatory responses, and inflammatory chemokines, according to their transcriptome. They communicate extensively with mast (immune) cells in fat tissue, involving stimulatory cytokines. They may in fact be responsible for the inflammatory aspect of obesity, that can lead to diabetes, metabolic syndrome, atherosclerosis, etc. Turns out that conditioned medium from adipose stem cells can be "net inflammatory" vs anti-inflammatory (depends on how you treat them in culture). The secretome is geared toward high TGF-beta 1&2 whereas BM-MSC secrete more TGF-beta 3. So, while they are cheaper, and grow more easily in culture, AD-MSC's seem not to be the anti-inflammatory scar-free TGF-beta 3 rich healing powerhouses that BM-MSC's represent. There is also a whole chondrogenic vs. lipogenic orientation aspect to this that speaks to collagen production.
I'm going to pull all this information into a post in the near future. For all you science nerdy types. |
Yes, I think I saw a paper on this in the past few months where the media from adipocytes harvested from obese animals was then applied to lean adipocytes and the net result was an impairment in insulin pathways. That's why I asked earlier about the important distinction between BM- vs AD-MSCs, as I suspect the difference matters quite a bit! |
|
Another key difference that a colleague pointed out this week is that adipose stem cells are generally retrieved from 40-60 year old humans, the average age for receiving liposuction procedures (the cells are derived from the fat that is suctioned). In contrast the average age for bone marrow aspirate donors is 22 years (they are recruited from the athletic departments of universities). This means the starter cells in ADSC cultures are considerable older than those in BMSC cultures,and have already undergone a number of generations. Since stem cells themselves age (yes, ever get shorter telomeres) it may have something to to with the difference in cytokines expressed. In particular ones like IL-8 which is part of what differentiates fetal wound healing (scarless) from older adult healing (more fibrotic) as well as the TGF-beta family. |
So does this mean products using the fetal cells have an advantage here?
COSMECEUTICALS
NEOCUTIS Bio-restorative Skin Cream, JOURNÉE Bio-restorative Day Cream, LUMIÈRE Bio-restorative Eye Cream and BIO-GEL Bio-restorative Hydrogel are the only products to contain PSP®.
Through years of research, physicians discovered fetal skin has a unique ability to heal wounds without scarring. Inspired by this, medical researchers at the University Hospital of Lausanne, Switzerland created a biotechnology process to extract the rich proteins responsible for scarless wound healing from cultured fetal skin cells. A dedicated cell bank was established for developing new skin treatments using a single biopsy of fetal skin. Originally established for wound healing and burn treatments, today this same cell bank also provides a lasting supply of cells for producing NEOCUTIS proprietary skin care ingredient Processed Skin Cell Proteins (PSP®).
PSP® provides the most complete and balanced combination of human growth factors and cytokines currently available.
http://www.neocutis.com/modules.php?modid=4 |
These are cultured fetal skin cells, not stem cells. Probably keratinocytes, as they don't mention fibroblasts. These cells are not specialized for cell growth or repair, like stem cells. Further, rather than allowing them to export cytokines only (the stuff you want), they lyse the cells (break them open) so the resulting mix contains millions of different biochemicals, some good, some not so good, for the renerative agenda. Also contains cell parts, DNA, rNA, nucleotides. Freeze-thaw lysing is well known to destroy proteins anyway.
It comes from Switzerland. BTW, I don't think you could do this in the US, because tissue from non-consenting humans(fetuses cannot give informed consent) cannot be commercially exploited. OK only for research purposes.
From the American Society for Cell Biology: Under the current law, it is “unlawful for any person to knowingly acquire, receive, or otherwise transfer any human fetal tissue for valuable consideration if the transfer affects interstate commerce.” which in legal language means you cannot sell. |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:06 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
I thought this was interesting, so I am cross posting on to this thread.
| cm5597 wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
Had a conference with a colleague who studies differential secretomes and transcriptomes of stem cells. This gets down to gene expressions. Lots of new insight into the difference between adipose-derived (AD) and bone marrow-derived (BM)MSC's, in culture, and in vivo. AD-MSC's are far more tuned to inflammatory responses, and inflammatory chemokines, according to their transcriptome. They communicate extensively with mast (immune) cells in fat tissue, involving stimulatory cytokines. They may in fact be responsible for the inflammatory aspect of obesity, that can lead to diabetes, metabolic syndrome, atherosclerosis, etc. Turns out that conditioned medium from adipose stem cells can be "net inflammatory" vs anti-inflammatory (depends on how you treat them in culture). The secretome is geared toward high TGF-beta 1&2 whereas BM-MSC secrete more TGF-beta 3. So, while they are cheaper, and grow more easily in culture, AD-MSC's seem not to be the anti-inflammatory scar-free TGF-beta 3 rich healing powerhouses that BM-MSC's represent. There is also a whole chondrogenic vs. lipogenic orientation aspect to this that speaks to collagen production.
I'm going to pull all this information into a post in the near future. For all you science nerdy types. |
Yes, I think I saw a paper on this in the past few months where the media from adipocytes harvested from obese animals was then applied to lean adipocytes and the net result was an impairment in insulin pathways. That's why I asked earlier about the important distinction between BM- vs AD-MSCs, as I suspect the difference matters quite a bit! |
|
Another key difference that a colleague pointed out this week is that adipose stem cells are generally retrieved from 40-60 year old humans, the average age for receiving liposuction procedures (the cells are derived from the fat that is suctioned). In contrast the average age for bone marrow aspirate donors is 22 years (they are recruited from the athletic departments of universities). This means the starter cells in ADSC cultures are considerable older than those in BMSC cultures,and have already undergone a number of generations. Since stem cells themselves age (yes, ever get shorter telomeres) it may have something to to with the difference in cytokines expressed. In particular ones like IL-8 which is part of what differentiates fetal wound healing (scarless) from older adult healing (more fibrotic) as well as the TGF-beta family. |
So does this mean products using the fetal cells have an advantage here?
COSMECEUTICALS
NEOCUTIS Bio-restorative Skin Cream, JOURNÉE Bio-restorative Day Cream, LUMIÈRE Bio-restorative Eye Cream and BIO-GEL Bio-restorative Hydrogel are the only products to contain PSP®.
Through years of research, physicians discovered fetal skin has a unique ability to heal wounds without scarring. Inspired by this, medical researchers at the University Hospital of Lausanne, Switzerland created a biotechnology process to extract the rich proteins responsible for scarless wound healing from cultured fetal skin cells. A dedicated cell bank was established for developing new skin treatments using a single biopsy of fetal skin. Originally established for wound healing and burn treatments, today this same cell bank also provides a lasting supply of cells for producing NEOCUTIS proprietary skin care ingredient Processed Skin Cell Proteins (PSP®).
PSP® provides the most complete and balanced combination of human growth factors and cytokines currently available.
http://www.neocutis.com/modules.php?modid=4 |
These are cultured fetal skin cells, not stem cells. Probably keratinocytes, as they don't mention fibroblasts. These cells are not specialized for cell growth or repair, like stem cells. Further, rather than allowing them to export cytokines only (the stuff you want), they lyse the cells (break them open) so the resulting mix contains millions of different biochemicals, some good, some not so good, for the renerative agenda. Also contains cell parts, DNA, rNA, nucleotides. Freeze-thaw lysing is well known to destroy proteins anyway.
It comes from Switzerland. BTW, I don't think you could do this in the US, because tissue from non-consenting humans(fetuses cannot give informed consent) cannot be commercially exploited. OK only for research purposes.
From the American Society for Cell Biology: Under the current law, it is “unlawful for any person to knowingly acquire, receive, or otherwise transfer any human fetal tissue for valuable consideration if the transfer affects interstate commerce.” which in legal language means you cannot sell. |
Having a nice debate with a biochemist, Mandy, who disagrees with me on most things. One thing we seem to agree on is the "lack of decor" of products based on proteins derived from human fetal/neonatal foreskin fibroblasts. Although for slightly different reasons. |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:26 pm |
| What exactly do you mean by "lack of decor"? |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:09 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Doesn't really deserve a serious examination. Let's not waste our time on statements devoid of credibility. |
Seriously? You don't think someone having uncontrolled tissue growth is worth some more examination? It sure is in my mind.
I don't care what personal issues you and Darkmoon have with each other, and I do not want to be involved in any of that. Frankly I am sick of seeing all the nasty posts going on lately between all the parties.
But, as a scientist, I would think this is something you would want to examine very carefully or at least take the time to explain to everyone why and/or why not this could happen or what some other explanations could be. |
My daughter had out of control scar tissue growth called a desmoid tumor which can be deadly if not caught in time. Desmoid tumors have to be treated like cancer, there has to be a clear margin of tissue when the tumor is excised out and in a lot of cases the patient has to have radiation and/or chemo. In my daughter's case, it was a genetic condition. Our surgeon (Johns Hopkins) also said there is a hormonal link as well so he put her on low dose birth control pills. Not saying that DM has this condition but scar tissue overgrowth is not as uncommon as one might think. It seems to be happening a lot after surgeries, particularly c-sections. I am not a doctor but I doubt that a topical product would cause out of control scar tissue growth having experienced what happened with my daughter, who was 19 at the time, and what we learned from all of the highly qualified doctors we saw. |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:27 pm |
| Debb3485 wrote: |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Doesn't really deserve a serious examination. Let's not waste our time on statements devoid of credibility. |
Seriously? You don't think someone having uncontrolled tissue growth is worth some more examination? It sure is in my mind.
I don't care what personal issues you and Darkmoon have with each other, and I do not want to be involved in any of that. Frankly I am sick of seeing all the nasty posts going on lately between all the parties.
But, as a scientist, I would think this is something you would want to examine very carefully or at least take the time to explain to everyone why and/or why not this could happen or what some other explanations could be. |
My daughter had out of control scar tissue growth called a desmoid tumor which can be deadly if not caught in time. Desmoid tumors have to be treated like cancer, there has to be a clear margin of tissue when the tumor is excised out and in a lot of cases the patient has to have radiation and/or chemo. In my daughter's case, it was a genetic condition. Our surgeon (Johns Hopkins) also said there is a hormonal link as well so he put her on low dose birth control pills. Not saying that DM has this condition but scar tissue overgrowth is not as uncommon as one might think. It seems to be happening a lot after surgeries, particularly c-sections. I am not a doctor but I doubt that a topical product would cause out of control scar tissue growth having experienced what happened with my daughter, who was 19 at the time, and what we learned from all of the highly qualified doctors we saw. |
I am sorry you and your daughter had this experience Deb, and you are of course entitled to your opinion and doubt.
If this had not resolved in a short period after I stopped the product, I would have gone to see my practicing licensed Physician in a heartbeat to have it checked out. |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:30 pm |
| Debb3485 wrote: |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
| Doesn't really deserve a serious examination. Let's not waste our time on statements devoid of credibility. |
Seriously? You don't think someone having uncontrolled tissue growth is worth some more examination? It sure is in my mind.
I don't care what personal issues you and Darkmoon have with each other, and I do not want to be involved in any of that. Frankly I am sick of seeing all the nasty posts going on lately between all the parties.
But, as a scientist, I would think this is something you would want to examine very carefully or at least take the time to explain to everyone why and/or why not this could happen or what some other explanations could be. |
My daughter had out of control scar tissue growth called a desmoid tumor which can be deadly if not caught in time. Desmoid tumors have to be treated like cancer, there has to be a clear margin of tissue when the tumor is excised out and in a lot of cases the patient has to have radiation and/or chemo. In my daughter's case, it was a genetic condition. Our surgeon (Johns Hopkins) also said there is a hormonal link as well so he put her on low dose birth control pills. Not saying that DM has this condition but scar tissue overgrowth is not as uncommon as one might think. It seems to be happening a lot after surgeries, particularly c-sections. I am not a doctor but I doubt that a topical product would cause out of control scar tissue growth having experienced what happened with my daughter, who was 19 at the time, and what we learned from all of the highly qualified doctors we saw. |
I've treated desmoids. They can be very challenging. They are slow growing, progressive, locally aggressive tumors, from peas sized to tennis ball sized, typically on the trunk rather than extremities. Usually end up being surgically removed, as they don't go away on their own. |
_________________
Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:50 pm |
Let's nickname this the nerdy thread. Since one of the founding principles of this thread (scroll to the top) is to share research results, here is my daily "scoop". It starts with TallyHo/JnJ mice, who provide a model of type 2 diabetes, wherein leptin (an adipose tissue hormone) inhibits insulin secretion (as it does in humans).
As medical director at JnJ (which the model is partly named after, we sponsored the dev work), I worked with a lot of university labs, including this stellar one at Northwestern. Well respected in the world of diabetes & plastic surgery.
In this study, TallyHo mice were used as a model of diabetic wound healing. They displayed many wound healing deficits. The authors here measured key cytokines that go along with these deficits, and found them down-regulated. These included including VEGF, NAP-2, MCP-1-1, HemeOx-1, IL-1β, and IL-6. In future weeks, we will look at individual cytokine families, their roles and functions in wound healing, how that translates to a model of regeneration, and how that adds to our understanding of stem cell-derived products and their actions.
Here is the whole abstract:
Plast Reconstr Surg. 2011 Nov;128(5):427e-437e.
The TallyHo polygenic mouse model of diabetes: implications in wound healing.
Buck DW 2nd, Jin da P, Geringer M, Hong SJ, Galiano RD, Mustoe TA.
Laboratory for Wound Repair and Regeneration, Division of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery, Northwestern University, Chicago, IL 60611, USA.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Impairments in wound healing represent a significant source of morbidity and mortality in patients with diabetes. To help uncover the derangements associated with diabetic wound healing, murine animal models have been extensively used. In this article, the authors present results, and the accompanying wound healing implications, from experiments across three validated wound healing models using a newer polygenic strain of diabetes.
METHODS:
The authors investigated the wound healing impairments of the TallyHo/JnJ diabetic mouse strain, using three validated wound healing models: an incisional model, a splinted excisional model, and a cutaneous ischemia-reperfusion injury model. Appropriate control strain mice were used for comparison. Wounds were analyzed using gross, histologic, and molecular techniques.
RESULTS:
TallyHo mice displayed deficits across all three wound healing models. There was a reduced resistance/response to oxidative stress and a global decrease in the initial inflammatory response to healing. In addition, there was a global decrease in the stimulus for angiogenesis and collagen formation, ultimately leading to reduced reepithelialization, granulation tissue formation, wound contraction, and wound tensile strength. Gross and histologic findings were corroborated with molecular data, which revealed a significant down-regulation of important cytokines, including vascular endothelial growth factor, neutrophilic attractant protein-2, monocyte chemoattractant protien-1, heme oxygenase-1, interleukin-1β, and interleukin-6, when normalized to the control strain (p<0.05).
CONCLUSIONS:
The TallyHo polygenic mouse model of diabetes demonstrates predictable and clinically relevant wound healing impairments that offer important implications into the derangements of diabetic wound healing observed clinically. Therapeutics targeting these specific derangements could provide improvements in the care of diabetic wounds.
If someone wants to remind me how to insert graphics, I could show pictures. These are very round mice. |
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Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:53 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
Having a nice debate with a biochemist, Mandy, who disagrees with me on most things. One thing we seem to agree on is the "lack of decor" of products based on proteins derived from human fetal/neonatal foreskin fibroblasts. Although for slightly different reasons. |
I'll head over and check it out!
Have you been able to any discussions with Dr. F or Dr. S regarding dermarolling and AA yet? |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:25 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
Having a nice debate with a biochemist, Mandy, who disagrees with me on most things. One thing we seem to agree on is the "lack of decor" of products based on proteins derived from human fetal/neonatal foreskin fibroblasts. Although for slightly different reasons. |
I'll head over and check it out!
Have you been able to any discussions with Dr. F or Dr. S regarding dermarolling and AA yet? |
Not yet - so much going on! |
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Physician - scientist - curmudgeon. Kind to animals and stem cells. Nonprofit muckraking site: www.barefacedtruth.com. Day job: www.anteage.com |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:42 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
Having a nice debate with a biochemist, Mandy, who disagrees with me on most things. One thing we seem to agree on is the "lack of decor" of products based on proteins derived from human fetal/neonatal foreskin fibroblasts. Although for slightly different reasons. |
I'll head over and check it out!
Have you been able to any discussions with Dr. F or Dr. S regarding dermarolling and AA yet? |
Not yet - so much going on! |
Busy is good! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:19 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
I don't care what personal issues you and Darkmoon have with each other, and I do not want to be involved in any of that. Frankly I am sick of seeing all the nasty posts going on lately between all the parties.
But, as a scientist, I would think this is something you would want to examine very carefully or at least take the time to explain to everyone why and/or why not this could happen or what some other explanations could be. |
If a post is nasty, report it to the moderators, they do sterling work IMO. This 'callous' has been addressed on the AnteAGE review thread - see link - I don't see the point in allowing it to derail this thread. DarkMoon introduced many new products and gadgets into her routine over the last couple of months. She herself admitted she would be unable to attribute her results to any one product or gadget: despite that the callous post was very strongly worded, even emboldening the accusation.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=45400&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=1150 |
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Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:10 am |
| How does Al Sear's skincare stuff compare in comparison as I think they advertise it in connection with stem cells don't they? |
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| Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:59 pm |
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