Facial Soap Bar & its pH - Revisited
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free skin care · Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:22 am

I was told not to use facial soap bar as it would damage the skin mantle because of the high pH; accordingly, I had not used it for years.

However, I do read rave reviews of some hand crafted soap bars, especially Chagrin Valley.

Thus, I went to its website and found the comments of pH & soaps that had corrected some of my misunderstandings.

"......The skin itself does not have a pH......

......The acidic conditions of the skin are caused by normal secretions from sweat glands, sebaceous glands (which secrete an oily substance called sebum), and the breakdown of fatty acids on the skin by good bacteria that live on our skin.......

......A product's pH is not the real danger to your skin, but the synthetic detergents and other chemicals used in soaps, shampoos, and other cosmetics to alter the pH to please the people who believe in the "pH balanced" story – are damaging. These synthetic additives strip the skin of the natural fatty acids and oils, inhibit the natural moisturizing factors of your skin, and actually prevent it from managing its own pH balance......"

http://www.chagrinvalleysoapandsalve.com/idascorner/soappH.aspx

free skin care · Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:39 am

Do your own research, don't believe a commercial website.

free skin care · Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:56 am

In other words, you don't recommend that we should use facial soap bar; am I correct?

free skin care · Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:52 am

summer2004 wrote:

In other words, you don't recommend that we should use facial soap bar; am I correct?

Pardon?? You quoted (IMO) pseudo-science and I suggested you do your own research instead of believing a sales pitch. I made no comment whatsoever on soap bars.

free skin care · Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:03 am

Firefoxe,

I have searched the net regarding the pH, acid mantle of the skin etc. but cannot find an authoritative information.

I'd like to know which part of the info of the link that I posted was misleading and without any scientific and medical backup.

free skin care · Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:21 am

Skin absolutely DOES have a pH, humans are a very high percentage water and any watery solution has a pH. A clean dry skin surface doesn't have a *measurable* pH because there is no free water. The conditions on a surface that has not been cleansed and dried are known as the 'acid mantle' and this is considered to be an integral part of the body's protective mechanisms. Chemicals you apply to the surface can not only mess with the acid mantle but *some* can be absorbed into the skin and alter the pH of the tissue itself. Also compounds in the sweat and sebum don't only sit on the surface, some are absorbed into the skin! They are active not simply waste products.

A healthy skin surface is variable but pH 5.5 is often cited as the average. 'pH balanced' often denotes pH 7 (neutral) so that is not ideal for the skin. But most dermatology authorities don't recommend that anyway - which your quote fails to mention. Traditional soap is HIGHLY alkaline - as high as pH 8 or 9! - yes you can adjust the pH of your finished product with additives but you can do that with syndets (synthetic detergents) just the same. High pH products kill or dislodge the beneficial micro-organisms on the skin surface (= what antibiotics does to the bacteria in your gut) as well as being irritant. Some syndets absolutely are damaging irrespective of pH: for example the anionic surfactant SLS is proven to thin the skin, cause irritation and dehydration at concentrations as low as 1%. But detergents come in groups with completely different modes of action - for example cationic surfactants are major ingredients in moisturisers and hair conditioners!!

Whilst *young healthy* skin can reset the acidic conditions within a short period after using a harsh cleanser by pumping out sebum or sweat, the beneficial microorganisms cannot simply be replaced. And we don't all have young healthy skin - many here are older, have dermatitis or acne, be experiencing irritation from Retin-A and an L-ascorbic acid serum, be doing acid peels or using a dermaroller. It's worth noting that the pH scale is logarithmic, each one point difference is a factor of ten. So 7.5 is 100 times (10 x 10) more alkaline than 5.5, and 8.5 is 1000 times more alkaline (10 x 10 x 10). Shock

PubMed is an excellent index to authoritative scientific information. Search terms such as 'acid mantle', 'stratum corneum', 'syndet', 'alkaline soap' will throw up all sorts of results. Ideally you would read the full studies, but a good deal can be learned from just the abstracts. A random selection of examples
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9407174
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18713074
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18489300
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12010071
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16864974

Some full text stuff I've bookmarked that you might find interesting
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2494.2011.00644.x/full
http://www.sophyto.com/pdfs/clinicals3.pdf
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/chemistry-of-our-skin-ph-and-our-skin.html

HTH. Wink

Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:30 am

Great post Foxfire. I had my suspicions about bar soap but this really helps to clear things up for me. Thanks! Smile

free skin care · Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:48 am

summer2004 wrote:

In other words, you don't recommend that we should use facial soap bar; am I correct?

There are 2 full pages on the link:

Gentle ways to come clean: Think soap is too harsh? Think again. Cleansing bars are making a comeback - and we've rounded up the best ones for your skin type - Beauty in Action....

Billed as drying, detergent-laden, pore-clogging and even unsanitary, soap has been cast as the arch villain in bathrooms everywhere. But truth be told, "there's nothing wrong with soap," says Margaret A. Weiss, M.D., assistant professor of dermatology at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore - just one of many dermatologists who tout soaps as some of the best products to cleanse the skin. "Soap has gotten a bad reputation because it used to contain harsh detergents, which stripped oil from the skin," Weiss says. "But that's no longer the case with all soaps anymore."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0846/is_5_21/ai_82333598/

free skin care · Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:24 am

FireFoxe, your post is very informative.

free skin care · Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:42 am

Semantics is an issue here. Lay people may use the word 'soap' to describe products that are in fact made from synthetic detergents (eg. dish soap in the US, liquid hand soap in the UK). This is why I generally refer to 'traditional soaps' OR 'alkaline soaps' when I am meaning the stuff that is produced from oils plus lye. Traditional soap *usually* comes in solid form but there are diluted liquid versions such as Dr Bronners. In the literature a clear distinction is made between alkaline soaps and synthetic detergents and, of course, between different types of syndets. Cleansing bars are not all made from traditional soap.

free skin care · Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:10 pm

So are 'traditional' oil based soaps, such as Dr. Bronner's, the lesser of 2 evils Firefox?

free skin care · Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:04 am

IMO it is unwise to generalise about all soaps or all synthetic detergents, the pH of the finished product and the partner ingredients are hugely important. It would be like saying all dietary fats or all sugars and other carbs have the same effect on our health.

Traditional soap may be made from an oil but don't be fooled into thinking that makes it gentle. There is no oil left if the soap is made correctly and it will leave a scummy residue on your skin unless well formulated thereafter. Some traditional soaps are heavily diluted: the glycerin is left in, an acidifying agent is used and various oils and butters are used all of which will 'buffer' the dehydrating and irritant effect to some extent.

Many syndets are made from oil also, but some are very harsh and others really quite gentle. IMO the gentlest cleansers are cationic surfactants in the form of lotion cleansers or else straight up oils, with an emulsifier if you wish. Conditioner-washing the hair is much the same concept as using a lotion cleanser on your skin. If you want a foaming product - or need one for washing the hands say - the gentlest surfactant that I know of is cocoamidopropyl betaine. Again the overall formulation is important; because cocoamidopropyl betaine is low foam sometimes it is combined with a harsh anionic surfactant! Rolling Eyes

Personally all traditional soaps, all sulphate surfactants and many other anionic surfactants cause visible symptoms of dehydration and/ or irritation. But I am prone to (mild) eczema and contact dermatitis so my physiological responses are likely to be exaggerated. I find the research particularly interesting because it doesn't just cover symptoms but also signs, an issue that can be found on medical examination or with lab tests. That shows just because we can't see a negative effect or damage doesn't mean it is not occurring.

Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:48 am

This is is something that I can finally weigh in on! Ironically, i started on this when I had a hair straightening treatment and was told not to use shampoos with sodium laurel sulfate as they would strip out the product. Got me thinking as what I was doing to my skin!
I make my own cold processed soaps ie- lye with a custom blend of oils and other additives (such as clays, seawood, essential oils). It is nice to switch up from day to day depending how my skin is feeling. I have shelves full of different oils from shea to cocoa butter to olive, safflower, apricot and castor.And too many EOs.

Also, many beauty bars such as dove and ivory are made with animal fat, ie sodium tallowate. This is a by product of the commercial slaughterhouses and amimals that were raised on who knows what which is left in their fat. All these commercial bars have the glyceryn removed as this is a valuable product which is resold.
Cold processed soaps retain all their natural glycern and feel nice and a bit slippery on the skin.
It is a fact that all soaps are alkaline. That is the nature of the product. I do rinse thoroughly with water of course. My results have been excellent. YMMV.
In any event soap works for me. It is an affordable option to try.
The woman who runs chagrin is actually a chemistry teacher. Ironically, I bought my first bar of soap from her before I became a soapmaker!

Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:00 am

Whatif one follows up with the ACV toner right after washing? Would that not alter the PH of the skins mantle as well, but for the better?
Just trying to figure out how sucessive products work together, or not in some cases.
I am going to try and make up that toner today!

free skin care · Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:05 am

Jadzaluk wrote:

Whatif one follows up with the ACV toner right after washing? Would that not alter the PH of the skins mantle as well, but for the better?
Just trying to figure out how sucessive products work together, or not in some cases.
I am going to try and make up that toner today!

If I recall correctly that is the reason toners were developed to begin with, to help re-balance the skin back to a more acid pH. If we think about it a little while back in history soap was the only option to cleanse with.

The ACV toner has been a favorite around here for ages! Smile

free skin care · Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:53 am

Jadzaluk wrote:

Whatif one follows up with the ACV toner right after washing? Would that not alter the PH of the skins mantle as well, but for the better?
Just trying to figure out how sucessive products work together, or not in some cases.
I am going to try and make up that toner today!

You can certainly readjust the pH which is bacteriostatic to some extent. But that is not restoring the acid mantle because it is comprised of a variety of lipids, salts, humectants and so on ... An acidic toner also doesn't restore the beneficial skin flora nor reverse the irritation which has already taken place. If you damage the skin with a cleanser or exfoliator you can't reverse that with a swipe of cotton wool, you have to wait for the skin to heal/ restore itself.

Do you actually know the pH of the cleansing product you are using? Have you tried diluting it so that it is much weaker?

Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:36 pm

I dont know what the PH of my finished soaps are. The swabs are not very accurate, I have been told, so I would not go by them. All coldprocess soaps have a higher thsn neutral ph.
I have been using my soaps for years. They are gentle and non-irritating on my face and body. Of course we are all different, so I cannot speak to how others would react.
They contain anywhere from one ingrediant (olive oil) to a half dozen oils and butters. There is no need for any preservatives, etc, so this can be a very simple product. Some are a bit more elaborate. I have a himalayam salt bar that i love to use, as it is sort of like a pumace for the rough spots... I am doing some goats milk and honey from my own bees.
I have been having so much fun formulating soaps that I am looking forward to doing other things, like this toner, to start and maybe the CE Ferulic which I have been loving for years.

free skin care · Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:42 pm

Jadzaluk wrote:

I dont know what the PH of my finished soaps are. The swabs are not very accurate, I have been told, so I would not go by them. All coldprocess soaps have a higher thsn neutral ph.
I have been using my soaps for years. They are gentle and non-irritating on my face and body. Of course we are all different, so I cannot speak to how others would react.
They contain anywhere from one ingrediant (olive oil) to a half dozen oils and butters. There is no need for any preservatives, etc, so this can be a very simple product. Some are a bit more elaborate. I have a himalayam salt bar that i love to use, as it is sort of like a pumace for the rough spots... I am doing some goats milk and honey from my own bees.
I have been having so much fun formulating soaps that I am looking forward to doing other things, like this toner, to start and maybe the CE Ferulic which I have been loving for years.

The Goats Milk and Honey sound divine! I am one who has never had any issues with natural soaps at all, I love them! Very Happy

free skin care · Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:13 pm

I use the Rhassoul clay soap from NCN on a regular basis. I'm very sensitive to detergents- I haven't used sulfates for years. To lump all bar soaps together doesn't seem right.

free skin care · Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:38 pm

Ava with wings wrote:

I use the Rhassoul clay soap from NCN on a regular basis. I'm very sensitive to detergents- I haven't used sulfates for years. To lump all bar soaps together doesn't seem right.

It is not, I know this was at the earliest over 23 years ago but all my pediatricians had me use regular unscented Dove bar soap on tender babies skin over all the "baby washes" sold!

None of my kids had dry irritated skin from it as it is very moisturizing. Smile

Thanks to moving that is at least 4 different doctors offices with 3-4 docs each.

free skin care · Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:05 am

Jadzaluk wrote:

I dont know what the PH of my finished soaps are. The swabs are not very accurate, I have been told, so I would not go by them. All coldprocess soaps have a higher thsn neutral ph.
I have been using my soaps for years. They are gentle and non-irritating on my face and body. Of course we are all different, so I cannot speak to how others would react.

Litmus paper is not accurate to the decimal place that an electronic pH meter is accurate to but it is plenty accurate enough for your purposes. It was used in laboratories and pharmacies for many many years. As I have said, much irritation and inflammation is invisible. If you are happy with that, great. Not being facetious, I mean it.

Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:00 am

Yesterday as I was testing the pool water, it occured to me to check out my tap water. As it turns out it is alkaline as well. Maybe because it is a well?
While a cleanser may be ph balanced, if one does not used distilled water then it is a bit of a wildcard what the ph of the water is that we are using extensively on our skin.
I guess that is why we use distilled water in formulating products.
Recently I spent a week in an eco resort in Tulum. The tap and shower water there are brackish from a limestone cenote on the property, ie high ph.
Given my lifelong eczema, I was really concerned that I would be uncomfortable and not feel clean. Well as it turned out my skin loved it. For me, there must be other factors that affect my skin other than the ph of a wash off product.

There are also many potentially irritating ingredients in liquid cleansers which is what i was trying to get away from in making my own soaps.

free skin care · Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:11 am

Jadzaluk wrote:

Yesterday as I was testing the pool water, it occured to me to check out my tap water. As it turns out it is alkaline as well. Maybe because it is a well?
While a cleanser may be ph balanced, if one does not used distilled water then it is a bit of a wildcard what the ph of the water is that we are using extensively on our skin.
I guess that is why we use distilled water in formulating products.
Recently I spent a week in an eco resort in Tulum. The tap and shower water there are brackish from a limestone cenote on the property, ie high ph.
Given my lifelong eczema, I was really concerned that I would be uncomfortable and not feel clean. Well as it turned out my skin loved it. For me, there must be other factors that affect my skin other than the ph of a wash off product.

There are also many potentially irritating ingredients in liquid cleansers which is what i was trying to get away from in making my own soaps.

Flying in the face of some other advice I just think if it works for you and your skin then use it and don't worry.

This idea that we have hidden irritation and hidden inflammation goes against my 58 years of life experience. Where is my or my now between 23-31 year old's skin hiding irritation and inflammation? None of us have come across any so far? I could go on to include friends and extended family but I think you get the idea? Smile

free skin care · Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:25 am

Jadzaluk wrote:

Recently I spent a week in an eco resort in Tulum. The tap and shower water there are brackish from a limestone cenote on the property, ie high ph.
Given my lifelong eczema, I was really concerned that I would be uncomfortable and not feel clean. Well as it turned out my skin loved it. For me, there must be other factors that affect my skin other than the ph of a wash off product.

There are also many potentially irritating ingredients in liquid cleansers which is what i was trying to get away from in making my own soaps.

That is pretty much the gist of the thread, yes.

free skin care · Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:51 am

Firefox7275 wrote:

Jadzaluk wrote:

Recently I spent a week in an eco resort in Tulum. The tap and shower water there are brackish from a limestone cenote on the property, ie high ph.
Given my lifelong eczema, I was really concerned that I would be uncomfortable and not feel clean. Well as it turned out my skin loved it. For me, there must be other factors that affect my skin other than the ph of a wash off product.

There are also many potentially irritating ingredients in liquid cleansers which is what i was trying to get away from in making my own soaps.

That is pretty much the gist of the thread, yes.

The thread name is:
Facial Soap Bar & its pH - Revisited

Unless I have read your posts incorrectly there are no bar soaps you believe are good to use on anyone's skin?

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