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Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:47 am  |
I was raised in a rural community where cheating your neighbors was one of the biggest crimes you could commit....that said, I became that kind of person. I'd have to hide all the mirrors in my house if I started lying for financial gain - so I guess that explains why I could never do it....so I always ask myself - how can someone push a product they know doesn't do what they claim it does?
Raised in a big city instead? LOL
Your thoughts?
BFG |
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Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:05 am |
Me too, Barefoot! I was also raised in a religious family and you can make me feel guilty about ANYTHING. I can't even host a tupperware/avon party/etc...it's like asking your friends and family to buy something so you can have something for free. If I want something, I'll work for it.
Some people that can 'take advantage' have lived in an environment where honesty, truthfulness has not been valued. It's 'get them before they get you' mentality.
Some have a sense of entitlement where society/parents owe them whatever they want. If they have to lie to get 'it', so be it.
It's never their fault that they have to lie and cheat. They justify it by saying it's the way of the world. |
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Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:46 pm |
| I really wished I had asked for my money back with a lot of things, I don't know how they get away with it considering there are laws about making false claims. They even prey on sick people who are desperate, I don't get how they are able to stoop that low. It's like some people are just born without a conscience. |
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Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:12 pm |
*true* to all i've read here so far.
narcisstic sociopaths are in an unfortunate category of nuts that are hard to crack, sometimes. |
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Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:24 pm |
Deliberately lying about something for financial gain is definitely wrong, and there should be consequences. For a small example, if someone says their soap or shampoos doe not have SLS in it, but it does, and they know it even though they say it doesn't, they should be fined. Or something. (This actually happened to me once, LOL, but nobody could prove the vendor knew it beforehand. It was blamed on a change in formula by the manufacturer who did not tell the vendor).
But sometimes "truth" can be relative. What works for one person may not work for another, but the people that have a bad experience want a product pulled, without allowing that some people want the product because it works for them. I remember the Vioxx case when it was pulled. It's pretty plain that Merck did some nasty shenanigans there to keep the bad sides under wraps, and that the FDA was involved to keep it quiet for them, but I also remembered numerous passionate testimonials from pain sufferers who swore Vioxx was the only thin that had ever worked for them. They were terribly upset that they were no longer going to have access to it. I felt bad for those people. Their "truth" was different than mine. Their truth gave me a different perspective about the frequently relative nature of good and bad, even if it didn't change my mind about Merck.
Proof that something is true can also be relative. Sometimes truth cannot accurately be proven with the tools at hand. Sometimes truth is too far ahead of current concepts to be understood or believed, even though proof is available (think Galileo and his calculations). Proof can be skewed, and proof can simply be different from one person to the next. For instance, how many of us know (or are) people who believe the existence of the world is proof in itself that God exists? I don't necessarily believe that, but since I can't prove otherwise I don't waste my time trying to convince anyone who does that they may not be right. Plus, I believe they have a right to their opinions without me foisting my demands for proof upon them.
I also don't get ginned up if these people contribute money to a church or evangelist or whatever. It's their money to spend how they see fit. I can't prove the evangelist doesn't really believe in God (that is, I can't prove he's perpetrating fraud), so it's not fraud just because it doesn't jibe with my belief system.
Supplements are a good case in point about relative truth. Many doctors consider them to be essentially worthless or even dangerous, and think that they should be pulled from the market. Or at least, the ones that show some efficacy should be mediated (prescribed) through them. But most of us know that supplements are benign the vast majority of the time, and frequently work well. They can be indispensable to consumers. Thank goodness doctors do not have absolute authority to exercise their judgment over us!
Lying is wrong. But when judging we should try to keep in mind that not everyone who gives an unsatisfactory answer is a liar, just like everyone who purports to offer objective truth is honest. Also, some smart people believe in things that are untrue. It doesn't make them liars, it just makes them misguided. Lord knows I've fallen into that category often enough. 
Plus consider that someone who is convinced of their absolute rightness on a moral crusade (Let's get all the lying liars who are lying to us!) can be just as dangerous as the outright liars they are trying to "get". Self-righteous people will typically bulldoze anyone who gets in their way, including innocent defenders of their targets.
There's a limit to all this temperance, of course...gotta draw the line somewhere or justice would never be served...but for everyday situations I find this kind of thinking suits better and leads to more happiness and contentment than more black & white thinking. Unless it's obvious fraud, the velvet glove suits better than the hammer.
Goodness, but I'm a gasbag sometimes. Sorry, every one. I wish it would quit raining so I could stop myself and go walk my dogs.  |
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Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:06 pm |
Good read!
I'm someone who prides myself on being honest. I hate how selfish and passive aggressive lying is. It's one of those personality traits that I just can't stand when I see it.
I've also accepted that there are many, MANY people in the world who disagree with that. There are tons of people who'll do anything and everything just to get what they want. In the case of businesses, what they want is always bigger profits. Sometimes they get caught and sometimes not. There isn't much you can do if you're dealing with an entity who just hasn't been caught "yet." We just have to keep an eye out for dishonesty as best we can.
I'll say that it particularly bothers me when there is dishonesty in the medical and pharmaceutical fields. But that's another story entirely. |
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Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:14 pm |
| Chlorophyll wrote: |
I'm someone who prides myself on being honest. I hate how selfish and passive aggressive lying is. It's one of those personality traits that I just can't stand when I see. |
I totally agree with this and am exactly the same. When you lose your integrity, you have nothing left. |
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Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:17 am |
Thank you all for the insightful comments. Sometimes I feel like I am alone with some of my thoughts - glad to find that I am not.
Cookie - that is a fantastic quote of yours, may I use it too?
BFG |
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Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:29 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Cookie - that is a fantastic quote of yours, may I use it too?
BFG |
Sure, be my guest. |
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Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:00 pm |
| Yubs wrote: |
...Unless it's obvious fraud, the velvet glove suits better than the hammer.
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hi, Yubs.
just read your multi-faceted perception posted previously re the relativity of Truth.
then, became curious as to how you would define *obvious fraud*? |
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Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:59 pm |
Yubs - I love your brain. Logical, deep, fearless...
I was raised in a smaller town..my parents both from small towns and Mass every Sunday. What I learned was mostly to do the right thing. Be honest with who you are... and the golden rule unless someone has proven they cannot be trusted - then you seek to tolerate as needed and avoid. I have a tendency to trust people.. on the other hand being in my 50's I certainly recognize when big business or Pharmaceutical industry/lobbies and FDA are involved, politics relating to financial gain is almost a guarantee.
I do not think all companies are lying and unethical - but they are in business to make money and I'm okay with that. Some misrepresent things - such as amount of actives or overpricing a product. (LaMer anyone). At this point it comes down to degrees. I've found that being educated, following and trusting my best judgement I tend to be surrounded by great (and truly helpful) people. I like to believe you attract what you know and who you are... Conversely you may attract haters who want to jump on you or bring you down(odd dynamic) but you are less affected by them and they cannot stay in your positive energy field.
I have lived in big cities (Manhattan comes to mind) and there is a different dynamic of what is admired and revered. That's a whole'nother topic. |
_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:13 pm |
| Kath91 wrote: |
| Yubs wrote: |
...Unless it's obvious fraud, the velvet glove suits better than the hammer.
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hi, Yubs.
just read your multi-faceted perception posted previously re the relativity of Truth.
then, became curious as to how you would define *obvious fraud*? |
Obvious fraud. Well, for example, what Merck did with Vioxx. Deliberately covering up harmful side effects so that they would not come to light, simply in order to keep the product on the market so they could keep generating revenue. I use this example to clarify that I DO NOT approve or condone what Merck did, even if the Vioxx users pleas and testimonials did put the issue on a much more relative and human term for me than I had had previously.
Or, for example, having a face potion with arsenic or lead in it and calling it healthy and a good cover up (although from what I've read lead based cosmetics were the ultimate in covering all flaws in the skin ).
But even something like arsenic *can* be relative...my great grandmother dosed her 6 child brood with a drop of arsenic every day until the 1917 flu pandemic ran its course, and according to family lore they were the only family in the county that was untouched by the flu. My gram used to swear the arsenic was what saved them. I tend to think it was that they were all too ornery to die at that time , but the anecdote does put a different spin on how the goodness and badness/truth and falsity of things can be *relative*.
I'm not going to go into exhaustive examples...I'm no arbiter of truth and I suspect you're smart enough to figure out what I mean on your own.
IMHO living in a world where truth and falsity and goodness and badness was absolutely black and white would be a tough place to live in. Is that how you see truth, Kath? |
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Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:21 am |
thx, Yubs.
the Merck/Vioxx situation had been the
one example of very *obvious fraud*
(the fraud becoming more obvious
only after it unfolded into a clear-cut legal case of criminal and civil unlawfulness.) |
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Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:51 pm |
Ah-h-h, just another aspect of schemes and fraud. Looks as if even "likes" and "followers" that consumers may use to help in their purchasing quests have never been really *trustworthy* nor *truthful* in the marketplace.
An on-line marketer even says that he advised a client to buy bogus social-networking traffic without any regard that it was still a criminal thing to do since it's utilizing illegal software. (see below)
from: http://news.yahoo.com/virus-targets-social-network-fraud-twist-191318698.html
.... create and sell false endorsements - such as "likes" and "followers" - that purport to come from users of Facebook, its photo-sharing app Instagram, Twitter, Google's YouTube, LinkedIn and other popular websites...
... splash on the Internet, seeking buzz for its own sake or for a business purpose, such as making a new product seem popular...
... but online marketing experts say some people are willing to spend heavily.
"People perceive importance on what is trending," said Victor Pan, a senior data analyst with WordStream, which advises companies on online marketing. "It is the bandwagon effect."...
Online marketing consultant Will Mitchell said he sometimes advises clients to buy bogus social-networking traffic, but only to get an early foothold online.
When asked about the ethics of faking endorsements, Mitchell replied, "It's fine to do for the first 100, but I always advise stopping after that."
He said one of his clients once bought more than 300,000 "likes" on Facebook against his advice, a move that Mitchell felt damaged the client's reputation. "It was just ridiculous," he said. "Everybody knew what they were doing."...
Still, experts say schemes to manipulate social networks are unlikely to go away. |
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Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:34 pm |
| Kath91 wrote: |
Still, experts say schemes to manipulate social networks are unlikely to go away. |
I just ignore that stuff these days, and focus on the clinicals.
I was doing a little research the other day and noticed that an EDS member left a bunch of reviews all on the same day at a variety of sites that didn't even really matter. WHY was my question. Who has time for that? |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:49 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
| Kath91 wrote: |
Still, experts say schemes to manipulate social networks are unlikely to go away. |
I just ignore that stuff these days, and focus on the clinicals. |
Yes, and I'm also mindful of and grateful for the info you posted re clinicals from the Dr.T Book thread:
Quote
- Clinical studies can be misleading. The bottom line is to look for the p-value in the Results section. If the p-value is higher than 0.05, then the clinical data is not scientifically strong enough to support claims that the product works.
| bethany wrote: |
| I was doing a little research the other day and noticed that an EDS member left a bunch of reviews all on the same day at a variety of sites that didn't even really matter. WHY was my question. Who has time for that? |
Tsk-Tsk and I wonder what *vested interest* is involved for someone really to make the time, to do all that and make it so worthwhile??? |
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Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:15 am |
| CookieD wrote: |
When you lose your integrity, you have nothing left. |
Great pithy truth. Losing integrity is a sad place to go to. I hope this kind of thread helps anyone who has wandered into the lost zone, to find their way back.
All can be redeemed, by making wholesome choices. |
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Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:57 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I was raised in a rural community where cheating your neighbors was one of the biggest crimes you could commit....that said, I became that kind of person. I'd have to hide all the mirrors in my house if I started lying for financial gain - so I guess that explains why I could never do it....so I always ask myself - how can someone push a product they know doesn't do what they claim it does?
Raised in a big city instead? LOL
Your thoughts?
BFG |
Exactly. Staying away from nature makes people real idiots,aggresive and greedy.
They really know nothing about life and honesty. |
_________________
We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. |
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Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:06 am |
| Panos..brutal sweeping generalisations, much? |
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Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:37 am |
| catski wrote: |
| Panos..brutal sweeping generalisations, much? |
The most selfish persons i have ever seen is those the love cities and HATE natural enviroments.
And if you see the persons in town that seek happiness ,they also tend to seek nature and natural life.
I wouldnt expect beautiful things from toxic enviroments. |
_________________
We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. |
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Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:59 am |
| catski wrote: |
| CookieD wrote: |
When you lose your integrity, you have nothing left. |
Great pithy truth. Losing integrity is a sad place to go to. I hope this kind of thread helps anyone who has wandered into the lost zone, to find their way back.
All can be redeemed, by making wholesome choices. |
Agreed! |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:15 am |
| Kath91 wrote: |
| I was doing a little research the other day and noticed that an EDS member left a bunch of reviews all on the same day at a variety of sites that didn't even really matter. WHY was my question. Who has time for that? |
Care to enlighten us who it was, Kath? Speaking for myself, I'm getting tired of insinuations and innuendos around here. If we're courageous enough to "combat hypocrisy" and be the foes of vendor shills here, we should be courageous enough to call a spade a spade. Who was it, please, say in public if you're gonna bring it up in public, or don't bring it up at all.
But as far as who has time for what...who has time to "research" and follow various EDS members around online to see what they're doing? *Really*?!
Just sayin'. I honestly don't mean that as snarky as it sounds, but don't know how else to say it. If we want to spit on and look down on people for how they spend their time (or their money), then we should probably look a little closer at how we spend our own and make sure we're not living in glass houses before we start throwing stones. |
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Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:56 pm |
| Yubs wrote: |
| Kath91 wrote: |
| I was doing a little research the other day and noticed that an EDS member left a bunch of reviews all on the same day at a variety of sites that didn't even really matter. WHY was my question. Who has time for that? |
Care to enlighten us who it was, Kath? Speaking for myself, I'm getting tired of insinuations and innuendos around here. If we're courageous enough to "combat hypocrisy" and be the foes of vendor shills here, we should be courageous enough to call a spade a spade. Who was it, please, say in public if you're gonna bring it up in public, or don't bring it up at all.
But as far as who has time for what...who has time to "research" and follow various EDS members around online to see what they're doing? *Really*?!
Just sayin'. I honestly don't mean that as snarky as it sounds, but don't know how else to say it. If we want to spit on and look down on people for how they spend their time (or their money), then we should probably look a little closer at how we spend our own and make sure we're not living in glass houses before we start throwing stones. |
That comment was made by me...not Kath91. And FYI that I was researching a product...not following members around. Last I checked, researching products was a good thing, but since you seem to have an issue with that, I will just stop sharing findings from my research, books, product tests, etc. since your post obviously points out that I am not credible.
Also, FYI that I do have concrete proof from certain people by their own admission that they have received kickbacks, but EDS is not the place for a public hanging. If anyone needs to know, it is the moderators, period. And that is where you should also be reporting posts that you have an issue with, as opposed to writing diatribes that attempt to demean people.
I used to really enjoy your posts and the info and thoughts you shared. However, as of late it seems that you just want to pick a fight with people. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:33 pm |
BTW, my point in mentioning that is that we really can't trust in anything we see online these days. Celebs and companies buy followers as mentioned above, and companies also negotiate for positive product reviews. Someone shared an email with me recently where the company specifically asked for a positive review in exchange for a discount...this happens all the time.
Of course someone that is very enthusiastic about a product may go leave positive reviews on 5+ different sites, but the likelihood of that is very slim. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:43 pm |
| Yubs wrote: |
| Kath91 wrote: |
| I was doing a little research the other day and noticed that an EDS member left a bunch of reviews all on the same day at a variety of sites that didn't even really matter. WHY was my question. Who has time for that? |
Care to enlighten us who it was, Kath? Speaking for myself, I'm getting tired of insinuations and innuendos around here. If we're courageous enough to "combat hypocrisy" and be the foes of vendor shills here, we should be courageous enough to call a spade a spade. Who was it, please, say in public if you're gonna bring it up in public, or don't bring it up at all.
But as far as who has time for what...who has time to "research" and follow various EDS members around online to see what they're doing? *Really*?!
Just sayin'. I honestly don't mean that as snarky as it sounds, but don't know how else to say it. If we want to spit on and look down on people for how they spend their time (or their money), then we should probably look a little closer at how we spend our own and make sure we're not living in glass houses before we start throwing stones. |
Kath91...so sorry for misreading the whole post!
bethany, if that's the way you want it to be, then I can't do anything about it. Sorry if you don't like me now because I dared call out what I thought was a mean-girl type post. But as honesty is a much bally-hooed quality, here...I am being honest. The post was snarky and full of insinuation and contributed nothing to the discussion. Either make it clear or stop dropping dark hints. I have heard nothing but insinuation and innuendo around here regarding ethics and sales and whatnot. Apparently there's an inner circle that's privy to the truth and the rest of us just have to take what the hierarchy has to say on blind faith. But I prefer to form my own opinion based on what I experience, and I take nothing on blind faith. I say if you're not going to make it clear then drop it and move on. That's an honest opinion.
Also, from what I can see, you are not necessarily put off by argumentativeness and oblique insults (if you were you would not have made the remark you did, and you would be having issues with quite a few other people here than me, and for much longer), you're just annoyed that I called out something you wrote, or that I am not arguing for the right "side".
I'm not on a side. I'm just sick of the nudge-nudge, hint-hint high school dynamics. It's frankly kind of off-putting in a bunch of grown women. FWIW I'm not the only one who feels that way, I'm just the one right now with the "bad manners" to address it publicly. I have played nice because I am here for the information, not to be buddies...although gaining buddies is always a great fringe benefit of being on a forum. But primarily I respect the amount of information many of you have to offer, and the experience you have with these gadgets. However, I'm not into kow-towing to dynamics I don't like just for the sake of belonging. I call it like I see it. Which, again, is a valued trait here...except when the prevailing wisdom is being challenged. Then it's just "argumentative" or starting drama.
From my perspective, the info is getting less and less worth the dynamics. And the bad thing is that no one seems to really want to stop! I can go away for years and drop back in hoping it's changed a bit because I'd like to hang out, but it's the same ol' dynamics that caused me not to hang out regularly in the first place. Same dynamics with essentially the same people. The players rotate a bit but it's all the same.
So, anyway, if you see me in a needling thread (my primary interest right now), and you choose to ignore my posts, I guess I'll know I'm being ostracized by the faction that doesn't like my honesty. I'm really not here to cause trouble. I just call stuff like I see it, and I'm not particularly concerned who doesn't like my take. I'll leave, if it comes to that. But hI happen to think we can discourse like grown-ups without the high school cloak-n-dagger or the oblique insults. I hope you ultimately agree. |
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