Dermapen – value?
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free skin care · Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:53 am

fawnie wrote:

Keliu wrote:

James - I'm disappointed that you're not designing a variable length needle cartridge for the home-use pen - they are so much more user friendly - and cost effective. Do you think you can reconsider this aspect?

Thats my concern too since I use different lengths during the same treatment and the cartridges are so pricy.

Ooh. Yes, lack of adjustable needle length in a single-use cartridge could be a deal breaker for some of us for the Dermapen consumer model. Even if you have to turn the machine off and insert the same cartridge into an attachment that will adjust the needle lengths (rather than simply move a dial), we should be able to use the same cartridge throughout a treatment, regardless of which needle length we use on different areas of the face.

Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:41 pm

Immacolata wrote:

I feel the same way - although a genuine Dermapen is way out of my budget, and I probably would never buy one - if I could afford it, I would not get it if it did not have the variable lengths.

I will say that I have great admiration for Dermapen because of this thread. A company that listens to consumers is my favorite kind of company! Smile

Thank you immacolata.

I understand what all of you are saying regarding the tips being adjustable but unfortunately I dont think this is something we can do for a couple of reasons.
1. When we make an adjustable system the adjustments are in the body of the machine not in the tips themselves. This means if we make a device that can do up to 1.5mm for home use, there is no differentiation in needles, so all people will have the ability to go to deeper levels in the home... which as we have discussed we really want to make sure people know what they are doing when they go to deeper levels.
2. The second reason is we are trying to make a much lower cost device so it becomes affordable for the home user but is still quality. If that system is adjustable just like the professional devices then why would any clinic bother buying the professional devices? we would destroy our business over night. I am just trying to be totally honest with you and hope you understand. We are doing our best to give you want you have asked for but we do have to weigh up all of these factors as reputable providers and also keep a viable business so we will be around in the future to support all of the customers.
We do prefer single use of the tips, however I will say some users have cleaned tips and reused them a couple of times as Dermapen tips do stay sharp. I can't ever recommend this practice officially but It has been done by people trying to save some money. If a customer were to do this then they should make sure to follow some very strict cleaning guidelines. But I understand users not wanting to do this and prefer to have something adjustable.
We hope that people will still buy Dermapen based on all of the other factors I think i have mentioned on here before.

Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:42 pm

Do you think that, that is reasonable?

free skin care · Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:47 pm

JamesM wrote:

2. The second reason is we are trying to make a much lower cost device so it becomes affordable for the home user but is still quality. If that system is adjustable just like the professional devices then why would any clinic bother buying the professional devices? we would destroy our business over night. I am just trying to be totally honest with you and hope you understand.

Hi James, thank you for the honesty, but it's just a matter of time, if dermapen wont do it, some other reputable company will.

And competition is what keeps the prices in check, so may be spas should not be charging $600 or so for a single session!
If the price is reasonable, most people would rather go to a pro than do it emselves, eg. manicures and pedicures...

free skin care · Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:20 pm

daler wrote:

JamesM wrote:

2. The second reason is we are trying to make a much lower cost device so it becomes affordable for the home user but is still quality. If that system is adjustable just like the professional devices then why would any clinic bother buying the professional devices? we would destroy our business over night. I am just trying to be totally honest with you and hope you understand.

Hi James, thank you for the honesty, but it's just a matter of time, if dermapen wont do it, some other reputable company will.

And competition is what keeps the prices in check, so may be spas should not be charging $600 or so for a single session!
If the price is reasonable, most people would rather go to a pro than do it emselves, eg. manicures and pedicures...

Totally agree with daler. James's honesty is appreciated, but feel I must return it and say the price of the needles has to be reasonable (either low-cost needles or adjustable) or many of us won't buy it. This new device is already going to cost more than other home needling units, and potentially paying an extra $50-$75/session (for example if you use two different needle lengths) isn't all that attractive, considering there are other options to get the job done even if they may not be as nice as Dermapen. For example, if Dermapen doesn't work out because of cost, and my Dermajet craps out, I will use Dermastamps. Not great but I can cheaply choose different needle lengths.

Yes, compared to the spa treatment the cost for this home Dermapen unit will be reasonable, but please keep in mind that many if not most of us serious home skincare hobbyists are not going to go to the spa for needling, anyway. Telling us that we're mitigating the expense of going to the spa by purchasing this device does not make the product more attractive because we wouldn't go there, anyway. In my area a Dermapen session cost over $700, and I definitely will NEVER do that...unless I win the Powerball or Lotto. Laughing

If the spa industry puts pressure on needling device manufacturers to increase prices so they don't lose business, and the price of home needling units goes up too high, then I will just live without. I suspect many will do the same. But then both the home user and the device manufacturers lose. The spas don't lose, however, because the people buying the home devices are not in the market for what they're selling, anyway. They think if the home options were available then people would come to them...but this just isn't so. Biggest losers would be the device manufacturers for pricing themselves out of the home market.

Not trying to be rude, just explaining.

If you're looking to market to the serious skincare hobbyist home user like the people on this forum the needle length/needle cost issue may well tank your new product. I could be wrong, but that's just my $0.02.

A potential solution might be to sell an adjustable length needle cartridge, but then only sell the *fittings* to adjust to longer needle length after someone has passed your responsibility check.

For example, Dermajet has a single needle cartridge for all needle lengths. But it also has these little fittings (sheaths) for the needle cartridge that determine the needle length. So inserting the needle cartridge into the 1.5mm sheath and then attaching the sheath + needle to the device gives you your 1.5mm length. Then if you wanted to change your length mid-session, you stopped, got another sheath, inserted the same needle cartridge into the new length, and then kept going. Does that make sense?

Stopping the needling session to adjust needle length might seem clunky to some people, but I honestly didn't find changing the needle length fittings on the Dermajet any more intrusive than having to stop and use a magnifying glass to check the tiny little numbers on the needle length dial on the My-m.

Implementing something like this would allow Dermapen to control who has access to longer needle lengths while at the same time mitigating the expense for the user.

Again, just my $0.02. Thanks for listening.

free skin care · Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:07 pm

JamesM wrote:

Do you think that, that is reasonable?

I can understand your point of not wanting to erode into your professional side of the business. However, I would put this to you - take into consideration kitchen appliances. There are expensive professional devices meant for use in restaurant kitchens - then there are the same devices made for the home consumer. The restaurant devices are made to withstand hours of use, the home devices do the same job but don't have the same build or powerful motors. I don't believe that domestic devices have eroded the market for restaurant equipment. It's more likely to be the other way around - many keen home cooks choose to buy the professional devices.

I would expect a needle pen designed for professional clinics to be built to withstand hours of continued use. I do not expect my home device to be manufactured to those specifications - but I do want it to be as convenient to use - and that would require a variable needle cartridge.

free skin care · Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:13 pm

Keliu wrote:

Has anyone used this anaesthetic cream - LMX4 Topical Anaesthetic Cream 5g? Note that it's recommended for medical needle procedures. It's much cheaper than Emla and is priced around AUD$13.95. Oh and it's supposed to numb in 30 mins.
http://www.terrywhitechemists.com.au/lmx4-topical-anaesthetic-cream-5g.html

This cream only has lidocaine in it, whereas Emla has lidocaine and prilocaine - so that might explain the difference in the cost between the two. I have used just lidocaine by itself and it did not work nearly as well as the Elma did. I'll only use the Elma now.

free skin care · Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:11 am

This Ebay seller has the My-M for $14.56 with $2.99 for shipping!!!!

http://bit.ly/169NAtA

free skin care · Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:18 am

USD 14.56 is for 10 needles; one My-M is USD 86.47.

free skin care · Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:26 am

summer2004 wrote:

USD 14.56 is for 10 needles; one My-M is USD 86.47.

Thank you for picking that up!! I know they're getting cheaper, but I should have known that was too good to be true! Very confusing marketing though.

free skin care · Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:45 am

I don't have any issues with swapping out different needle lengths if that's what it takes to produce a reasonably priced, quality device.

I also don't have a problem with re-using needles, since I don't share them with anyone else. I am confident in my home sanitizing process, although I definitely appreciate feedback from other sources on effective cleaning solutions (currently using 91 alcohol or peroxide). Also, some unofficial guidance on how many uses until dullness becomes an issue.

BFG

free skin care · Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:47 am

I have ordered and used LMX-4 previously and found the results similar to Emla. I got mine from drugstore.com - not sure of the price, but recall that it was not cheap.

BFG

free skin care · Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:48 pm

Keliu, thanks for posting that eBay link earlier today. I've read this entire thread, and as someone who went thru the EDS dermarolling craze a few years back, this product really appeals to me. However I didn't want to spent big $$ for a more expensive model, or have extra cost for cartridges. So I got the M-My plus ten cartridges for $100... which I consider a very good deal.

I have a question for you ladies: For background I am in my second 8-week round of using the Tria home rejuvenation laser and after that, there is a four-week period of collagen-building before any more rounds are begun. I don't know if I will keep doing 8-week rounds on a regular basis, but I'm wondering where you think the M-My use should fall. I will be using the M-My for collagen building, general smoothing and filling in some icepick scars (and a few shallow but wider scars from cysts). My question is, should I wait until the four weeks after ending the Tria round is over, then use the M-My? Or should I use the M-My right after ending the Tria?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

And, JamesM...I agree with the other posters, and particularly Yubs, who wrote that those of us who use home skincare devices don't expect them to be identical those in a spa-esthetician or medical-office in quality, but we do expect results and are willing to learn a lot about our potential investment. Widely discussed at EDS are at-home lasers, microdermabrasion, microcurrent, LED, etc etc. If you are reading other threads you will find the knowledge shared is quite impressive, as well as research done on products and protocols. So though I don't know what the spa market is like, I would imagine there are way, way more of us who are actively pursuing at-home cutting-edge skincare and anti-aging treatments than are regularly going to spas or estheticians and shelling out big bucks for these treatments. I believe the market is there, and whoever produces the product will be glad they did; as Daler posted, if Dermajet doesn't do it, someone else will. Just my opinion!

free skin care · Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:18 am

Thinking more about this last night.

I think the most economical and practical route for me, for a quality-made automated stamping device, would be - one that I would use 8-10 times per year for deep needling for collagen induction, defined as anything over... 1mm?

So, in this case, I would need to purchase probably at least 5 needle heads of at least 1mm length.

For product penetration, using needle lengths of .25 or .30mm, it seems more economical and practical for me to use the manual rollers or manual stamping devices - they are likely to be much cheaper, don't have to worry about them quitting or malfunctioning on me and quite frankly, I simply don't need the extra "power" or assist in piercing my skin. Why not save the life of my auto pen and needles for the big jobs? Not only that, but the risk of infection is much lower with the short needles, so simple hygiene as you would use for example with your toothbrush is all that is required...

Thinking more on this, this is the way I will go, unless something else changes that I am not seeing right now.

BFG

free skin care · Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:19 am

Thinking more about this last night.

I think the most economical and practical route for me, for a quality-made automated stamping device, would be - one that I would use 8-10 times per year for deep needling for collagen induction, defined as anything over... 1mm?

So, in this case, I would need to purchase probably at least 5 needle heads of at least 1mm length.

For product penetration, using needle lengths of .25 or .30mm, it seems more economical and practical for me to use the manual rollers or manual stamping devices - they are likely to be much cheaper, don't have to worry about them quitting or malfunctioning on me and quite frankly, I simply don't need the extra "power" or assist in piercing my skin. Why not save the life of my auto pen and needles for the big jobs? Not only that, but the risk of infection is much lower with the short needles, so simple hygiene as you would use for example with your toothbrush is all that is required...

Thinking more on this, this is the way I will go, unless something else changes that I am not seeing right now.

BFG

free skin care · Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:29 am

Barefootgirl wrote:

Thinking more about this last night.

I think the most economical and practical route for me, for a quality-made automated stamping device, would be - one that I would use 8-10 times per year for deep needling for collagen induction, defined as anything over... 1mm?

So, in this case, I would need to purchase probably at least 5 needle heads of at least 1mm length.

For product penetration, using needle lengths of .25 or .30mm, it seems more economical and practical for me to use the manual rollers or manual stamping devices - they are likely to be much cheaper, don't have to worry about them quitting or malfunctioning on me and quite frankly, I simply don't need the extra "power" or assist in piercing my skin. Why not save the life of my auto pen and needles for the big jobs? Not only that, but the risk of infection is much lower with the short needles, so simple hygiene as you would use for example with your toothbrush is all that is required...

Thinking more on this, this is the way I will go, unless something else changes that I am not seeing right now.

BFG

Good idea! I want to use a .5 for product penetration and might as well get a roller for that, but I do want to get an autostamper to use for deeper needling.

Still in the talking-about-it stage. Needling is definitely something I'm going to do, after a year of thinking about it, then a year of talking about it...I'm a procrastinator!

free skin care · Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:39 am

Immacolata wrote:

Good idea! I want to use a .5 for product penetration and might as well get a roller for that, but I do want to get an autostamper to use for deeper needling.

IMO 0.5mm is overkill for product penetration - better to use shorter needles because you will be rolling more often.

free skin care · Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:52 am

Would you use .25 or .3 for daily product penetration?

free skin care · Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:07 am

LauraLizzie wrote:

Would you use .25 or .3 for daily product penetration?

I'd go .2 or .25 for daily use.

free skin care · Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:00 am

Chocolat, I do both and, for better or worse, here is where I put derma pen treatments: right after my 8 week laser protocol. Then I rest for the 4 week collagen building period. This is because I do a deep needling. I think if you are doing a more superficial needling, you might be able to combine treatments. Derma pen treatments, while very effective, also take a lot of time if one is doing multiple passes, and it doing the treatment is rather mind numbing (thank you CBC radio for allaying this side effect) so I would rather not have to do it frequently.

I use ReAura, rather than Tria, so my treatments are twice weekly. I do not know how one feels after a Tria treatment, but for me needling on the same day as a laser treatment would be too much. But the fact that Tria is a daily treatment suggests that it is less vigorous, so you might be able to do it.

These home lasers have not been on the market for very long, so the guidelines for use are probably very conservative. You can experiment and then let the rest of us know how it goes.

The deeper I go with derma pen treatments (and there are opinions that it is not necessary to go deep), the more I feel it is necessary to provide healing time. Healing time may vary with different factors such as age.

I think it is a good idea to do both types of treatment as laser is said to have a thinning effect on the skin, needling thickens the skin.

free skin care · Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:20 am

I've seen studies on needles for product penetration ranging from .15 to .30 - My memory may not be 100% accurate, but I thought the most recent study found the most effectiveness at .30 - surely someone will come along to correct me on this Wink

BFg

free skin care · Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:23 am

I can only do the short needle rolls a couple times/week since I am rolling in actives and when they get deeper into the skin, they produce quite a reaction..wow, I can feel the stinging (Skinmedica C Serum as one example)

BFG

free skin care · Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:01 am

Chocolat, I am using the Dermajet at 1mm, allowing 10 days recovery, then picking up again with my reaura. I have not experienced any detrimental effect. I do use the red light for a few days after dermajet, as i read somewhere on the forum this helps the healing process.

I would like to address James' comments. Have we really established the Dermajet is a lemon? Personally, I have been bowled over by my dermajet. I have seen a definite improvement after just three uses. I have been using the Reaura since March on high, using their protocol, and am still unsure of the results. I did see Cookies pics, and wonder what she feels about the dermajet today? I do not do multiple passes. I dont find having to change the cartidge length a big deal (use short length in boney areas, forehead temple cheek bones).
As for product penetration, it appears to me virtually all my gadgets are touting this as a benefit - clairosonic, ultrasound, my sonic spatula.
I agree with Keilu and Yubs that the people on this site are not detracting in any way from professionals, we are not your regular spa users.
BFG has a solid point about using cheaper rollers for product penetration. I think most users of automated needling are looking to get the big job done.

As a side note, I did reuse my needles on the dermajet, and a tiny bit of plastic chipped off the side of the needle cartridge on the third use. Owndoc responded with the speed of light sending me TWO new needles which arrived within a week. My advice to anyone who was fortunate to receive a good model of Dermajet, start on low speed, do not do multiple passes until you see the results from your first pass. You are meant to see blood! On the higher settings as BFG poined out, this is a device that should be used less than once a month.

free skin care · Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:49 am

Billybob wrote:

I did see Cookies pics, and wonder what she feels about the dermajet today? I do not do multiple passes. I dont find having to change the cartidge length a big deal.

Hi Billybob- I only used the DermaJet that one time. There is no real way to tell if my bruising was from the broken piece on the DermaJet or the number of passes or strength of the punching motion. I can say I have never experienced that kind of bruising with any other treatment (using the same passes/time of treatment) I have done on my skin and I have done some pretty hard core treatments. I never had anything like that when I used either the My-m or a regular dermaroller.

I don't really like changing out the needle cartridges but could get over that if it was easy to do. Unfortunately that couldn't be done with the DermaJet because of the tightness of the needle sleeves. I don't think everyone has this problem but mine were made way to tight to get the needle in and out of.

free skin care · Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:27 am

Cookie, has your skin returned to normal now?

Initially I also had a problem pulling out the cartridges, but seem to have developed the knack now to the twist pull sequence, which needed a bit more wellie in the yank than I am accustomed to with my more expensive gadgets!

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