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Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:22 pm  |
| chasemom wrote: |
Wait! Steve did tell me 65mW/...... However, he said joules could not be determined based on that.
That being said, I just talked to Rita. I actually believe her explanation. She said that because the wavelengths are different, she could give me a range of joules delivered per. second. The range was 8-11 joules per. second. This works for me. She has also worked with lazers and LEDs for many years. I believe she knows her stuff. I am going with her light  |
ah ok, sorry steve,  ...
n good news from Rita!
Also, if it's 8 joules per sec, then it would be 480 Joules in a minute.. did you mean 8 to 11 joules per minute or second???
Pls keep us posted on your results on the red/infrared one.. i ll be getting the green one soon too... |
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Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:33 pm |
This is what the LEDman said(how do i decide on a LED device, page 125)about steve.
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I cannot accept Mr. Marchese’s statement that existing formulas cannot apply to the AALS because of proprietary ways of utilizing infrared. I do not believe that it is possible that there exists a proprietary method or invention that would necessitate setting aside the basic formulas used to calculate joules of emissive power or the time required to receive treatment of a specified number of joules.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?p=6424469#6424469 |
Also, about Rita... Is she referring to the input power or output power when she says ''240/cm2''? The output power is normally 30-15% of the input power, which would make 240mw/cm2 a lot less.
Besides this, based on what the Ledman posted (and he has a lot of experience in this field), a device with a emissive output power of 240 mw/cm2 is not possible, unless a supercooling system is used.
And if Rita means with 240mw/cm2 the input power, which would make the output emissive power 72mw/cm2(30%) or 36mw/cm2(15%)...
FDA rule: .0.8 watts per square inch is the maximum energy you can apply to any device that touches skin unless a fan or heat sink is used. Note this is the input power.
30% of 0.8 = .24 watts or 240 mw per square inch. There are 6.4516 square cm per square inch so dividing 240 mw by 6.4516 results in the emissive power per square cm of about 37 mw.
The emissive power of an LED device can be no more than 37mw/cm2, unless a cooling system is used. Does the Prolight use an cooling system? |
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Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:36 pm |
| my head is spinning! lol |
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Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:39 pm |
Besides this, Most manufacturers use the standard ''bullet'' type LEDS and they are the same.
They have an emissive output power of 0,010 to 0.015 Watt (10 to 15 mW) per LED and usual spacing is 2 leds per cm2 (20 to 30mw/cm2!)... NOT 240mw/cm2...
Information: http://heelspurs.com/led.html |
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Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:44 pm |
| Yams wrote: |
Besides this, Most manufacturers use the standard ''bullet'' type LEDS and they are the same.
They have an emissive output power of 0,010 to 0.015 Watt (10 to 15 mW) per LED and usual spacing is 2 leds per cm2 (20 to 30mw/cm2!)... NOT 240mw/cm2...
Information:http://heelspurs.com/led.html |
I have a green LED panel by LED man and he uses 4 LEds in a cm2... |
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Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:49 pm |
| Yams wrote: |
This is what the LEDman said(how do i decide on a LED device, page 125)about steve.
| Quote: |
I cannot accept Mr. Marchese’s statement that existing formulas cannot apply to the AALS because of proprietary ways of utilizing infrared. I do not believe that it is possible that there exists a proprietary method or invention that would necessitate setting aside the basic formulas used to calculate joules of emissive power or the time required to receive treatment of a specified number of joules.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?p=6424469#6424469 |
Also, about Rita... Is she referring to the input power or output power when she says ''240/cm2''? The output power is normally 30-15% of the input power, which would make 240mw/cm2 a lot less.
Besides this, based on what the Ledman posted (and he has a lot of experience in this field), a device with a emissive output power of 240 mw/cm2 is not possible, unless a supercooling system is used.
And if Rita means with 240mw/cm2 the input power, which would make the output emissive power 72mw/cm2(30%) or 36mw/cm2(15%)...
FDA rule: .0.8 watts per square inch is the maximum energy you can apply to any device that touches skin unless a fan or heat sink is used. Note this is the input power.
30% of 0.8 = .24 watts or 240 mw per square inch. There are 6.4516 square cm per square inch so dividing 240 mw by 6.4516 results in the emissive power per square cm of about 37 mw.
The emissive power of an LED device can be no more than 37mw/cm2, unless a cooling system is used. Does the Prolight use an cooling system? |
Your question re the input and output power is a good one. Sometimes when looking at the specs I'm confused as to whether we're comparing apples with apples. Have a look at these stats where they differentiate between "output energy" and "output power".
Likewise, your point about a cooling system is most pertinent - I'm sure ProLight does not utilise any kind of cooling fan. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:10 pm |
OUTPUT ENERGY 4 joules/sq. cm.
OUTPUT POWER 30 mw.
OUTPUT MODE Pulse
PULSE RATE 165 pps.
TREATMENT AREA 1.6 in. dia.
DUTY CYCLE 60% ON/40% OFF
TIMER 10 mins. - Auto OFF
LEDs specifications should always include W/cm2, so this specifications are just weird.
I don't know the difference between output power and output energy, but people seem to use both terms when they're talking about the 30% of the input power. Sometimes they also call it light output. |
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Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:14 pm |
| Yams wrote: |
Besides this, Most manufacturers use the standard ''bullet'' type LEDS and they are the same.
They have an emissive output power of 0,010 to 0.015 Watt (10 to 15 mW) per LED and usual spacing is 2 leds per cm2 (20 to 30mw/cm2!)... NOT 240mw/cm2...
Information: http://heelspurs.com/led.html |
Really good find on the website Yam. Lots of information. He does sell a LED unit. Below are the specs.
This is a 90 LED unit, with 45 red (660 nm) and 45 infrared (850 nm) LEDs in a 2.5 x 2.5 inch array providing 250 mW/cm^2 pulses. It is very powerful, requiring a 15-watt power supply and cooling fan to keep the LED array from getting hot. The strength and pulsing method should make it 5 times faster in getting a full treatment than other LED devices. Shoulder, back, neck, knee, and heel injuries can be treated in about 10 minutes with an immediate reduction in pain (typically from an 8 to a 2). Just send it back within a month to get a refund if you are not happy with it.
He is using this unit for healing injuries but I would think it would work for wrinkles. It does have a fan.
ETA: This unit is $180 so it is cheaper then The Prolight.
ETA again, when I click on this to order it it won't let you order it so maybe he's not selling them anymore.
http://heelspurs.com/cgi-bin/c/store/commerce.cgi?cart_id=2603823.9053 |
_________________
Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:25 am |
I saw Scott's (from the heelspurs site) LED unit a few days ago, but you can't get them right now. I just heard from him today and he expects to have some available in March. I asked him a bunch of other questions, too, and am hoping to hear back. I also presented Rita with the question about the cooling device for her ProLight. I trust she has a good answer. I really liked her on the phone. I will share any information I get with you.
Meanwhile, my Christmas/birthday present came today ! It is a full sized Richway Bio-Mat--a body sized infrared mat. I am laying on it right now and loving it. I think this is as close to heaven as it gets here on earth! |
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Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:23 pm |
| chasemom wrote: |
I saw Scott's (from the heelspurs site) LED unit a few days ago, but you can't get them right now. I just heard from him today and he expects to have some available in March. I asked him a bunch of other questions, too, and am hoping to hear back. I also presented Rita with the question about the cooling device for her ProLight. I trust she has a good answer. I really liked her on the phone. I will share any information I get with you.
Meanwhile, my Christmas/birthday present came today ! It is a full sized Richway Bio-Mat--a body sized infrared mat. I am laying on it right now and loving it. I think this is as close to heaven as it gets here on earth! |
Hi Chasemom, I was wondering if you asked Rita regarding 240 mw/cm2 or so being the input or output power? Thank you |
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Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:40 pm |
| daler wrote: |
| chasemom wrote: |
I saw Scott's (from the heelspurs site) LED unit a few days ago, but you can't get them right now. I just heard from him today and he expects to have some available in March. I asked him a bunch of other questions, too, and am hoping to hear back. I also presented Rita with the question about the cooling device for her ProLight. I trust she has a good answer. I really liked her on the phone. I will share any information I get with you.
Meanwhile, my Christmas/birthday present came today ! It is a full sized Richway Bio-Mat--a body sized infrared mat. I am laying on it right now and loving it. I think this is as close to heaven as it gets here on earth! |
Hi Chasemom, I was wondering if you asked Rita regarding 240 mw/cm2 or so being the input or output power? Thank you |
I emailed her. Yes. I have not heard back, yet, though. |
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Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:41 pm |
| chasemom wrote: |
| daler wrote: |
| chasemom wrote: |
I saw Scott's (from the heelspurs site) LED unit a few days ago, but you can't get them right now. I just heard from him today and he expects to have some available in March. I asked him a bunch of other questions, too, and am hoping to hear back. I also presented Rita with the question about the cooling device for her ProLight. I trust she has a good answer. I really liked her on the phone. I will share any information I get with you.
Meanwhile, my Christmas/birthday present came today ! It is a full sized Richway Bio-Mat--a body sized infrared mat. I am laying on it right now and loving it. I think this is as close to heaven as it gets here on earth! |
Hi Chasemom, I was wondering if you asked Rita regarding 240 mw/cm2 or so being the input or output power? Thank you |
I emailed her. Yes. I have not heard back, yet, though. |
great, thank you, hopefully it's the output power  but I fear it's the other, lets c... |
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Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:56 pm |
| daler wrote: |
| chasemom wrote: |
| daler wrote: |
| chasemom wrote: |
I saw Scott's (from the heelspurs site) LED unit a few days ago, but you can't get them right now. I just heard from him today and he expects to have some available in March. I asked him a bunch of other questions, too, and am hoping to hear back. I also presented Rita with the question about the cooling device for her ProLight. I trust she has a good answer. I really liked her on the phone. I will share any information I get with you.
Meanwhile, my Christmas/birthday present came today ! It is a full sized Richway Bio-Mat--a body sized infrared mat. I am laying on it right now and loving it. I think this is as close to heaven as it gets here on earth! |
Hi Chasemom, I was wondering if you asked Rita regarding 240 mw/cm2 or so being the input or output power? Thank you |
I emailed her. Yes. I have not heard back, yet, though. |
great, thank you, hopefully it's the output power but I fear it's the other, lets c... |
Well--if it is not the output, the unit would still require a cooling unit, according to Scott (LEDman from the heelspurs site) unless Rita's unit was using wimpy LEDs (wimpy=only 15%output, or less). This stuff sure is nuts. Just when you think you have it figured out, another monkey wrench is thrown into the mix. |
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Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:16 pm |
| daler wrote: |
| chasemom wrote: |
Wait! Steve did tell me 65mW/...... However, he said joules could not be determined based on that.
That being said, I just talked to Rita. I actually believe her explanation. She said that because the wavelengths are different, she could give me a range of joules delivered per. second. The range was 8-11 joules per. second. This works for me. She has also worked with lazers and LEDs for many years. I believe she knows her stuff. I am going with her light |
ah ok, sorry steve, ...
n good news from Rita!
Also, if it's 8 joules per sec, then it would be 480 Joules in a minute.. did you mean 8 to 11 joules per minute or second???
Pls keep us posted on your results on the red/infrared one.. i ll be getting the green one soon too... |
I wanted to let you know I plan to answer this question when I hear back from Rita. The numbers are confusing. The way I calculate this out, at 240mW/cm2, the unit should be putting out 4 joules to the treated area in 16.6 seconds. Anyway, maybe I missed something that Rita can clear up. One minute would make more sense. |
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Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:16 pm |
| chasemom wrote: |
| This stuff sure is nuts. Just when you think you have it figured out, another monkey wrench is thrown into the mix. |
Welcome to the conundrum!! Quite a few of us here have been stewing over these issues for years - and no-one has come up with a definitive answer. The discussions have been quite heated at times and affectionately became known as "The LED Wars"! Some experts have also suggested that the entire joules formula is not an accurate way of measuring output power. However, the FDA must surely demand some form of accurate specification parameters for safety reasons.
The DPL, which is often referred to as the weakest device because it only delivers 4j/cm2 in 9 mins - but if it's used for 17 mins (the recommended daily dose) doesn't this add up to 8mj/cm2? Given that the 17 minutes is the time taken to treat the entire face, this seems quite reasonable - but I'm as confused as ever with all of this! |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:31 pm |
Well, yes, if the time used is doubled, the joule dose would certainly be doubled.
I just want something that provides 126 joules delivered to the treatment area in a short amount of time. Thirty seconds or a couple of minutes per treatment area would be okay, because, say I have to treat 6-8 areas, this would not take as long, as, say, a unit that takes 20 minutes per area. I hope that makes sense. I would love to have something that treated my whole neck and face in 20 minutes or less, but the panels can't, really, because you can't touch them to every part of your neck and face. Some areas will get more "treatment" than others, because our faces aren't flat . Re: LED wars. Lol! I hope no one is mad at me. War is not my bag. |
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Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:39 pm |
| chasemom wrote: |
Well, yes, if the time used is doubled, the joule dose would certainly be doubled.
I just want something that provides 126 joules delivered to the treatment area in a short amount of time thirty seconds or a couple of minutes per treatment area would be okay, because, say I have to treat 6-8 areas, this would not take as long, as, say, a unit that takes 20 minutes per area. I hope that makes sense. I would love to have something that treated my whole neck and face in 20 minutes or less, but the panels can't, really, because you can't touch them to every part of your neck and face. Some areas will get more "treatment" than others, because our faces aren't flat . Re: LED wars. Lol! I hope no one is mad at me. War is not my bag. |
Some members who purchased the LightStim (which requires 3mins per area) actually bought two devices - one for each hand!! |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:33 pm |
| chasemom wrote: |
| I just want something that provides 126 joules delivered to the treatment area in a short amount of time. |
Are you set on these specifications because of the Omnilux LED clinical study? Because I'm pretty sure that the study was conducted using their professional salon equipment. Their home-use device requires a treatment time of 20mins per area. So if it was possible to deliver 126 joules in a short period of time, why did they not give their hand-held device this capacity? |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:06 am |
I've just found the information about the problems of measuring the output of LEDs in joules. It's on the DermaWave website. Here is an excerpt:
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The Joke of Joules ... We may get around to devoting an entire article to this in the near-future, but in the interim ... If you were a device manufacturer that employed LEDs in your design (such as we do), and you were to order LEDs in the raw from the Opto-Electronics industry that produces them, requesting a particular 'joules' specification, you'd be greeted with ..... a blank stare. Why? Because no matter what you've heard or have even read in 'skin magazines' (principally filled with articles submitted by those associated with distributors, posing as objective and unbiased writers - with the magazine's full knowledge), LEDs aren't typically measured in 'joules'. (Read that again, if you must). Lasers, okay (related to a 1 second constant). IPL flashlamps, yes (related to a 1 second constant, as well). LEDs ... ummm, not so much. This, because a joule rating can be so wildly and creatively fudged as it relates to LED output, all while generously presented with entirely incomplete and misleading information that allows for most any number or rating of one's choosing. There's more to the story, you see. There usually is ... Give us one photorejuvenation device - any one - and we can provide you with a variety of 'joule' ratings and specifications. It all depends on ...
How one measures the output, whether in real-world terms or through theoretical calculation.
How one works the math ... and ...
How one presents the math.
As you might imagine, most who try to sell you a device by the Numbers Game, do so by choosing the most 'favorable light' (no pun) that provides the highest numerical value.
Ways to Fudge include ...
Relate the rating to 'white light', rather than the actual narrowband wavelength employed in the LED.
Relate the specification to a steady-state emission, rather the pulsed duty cycle actually provided by the device's driver circuit (remember the 50% thing?)
Expand the time constant for the stated output.
Don't relate output to surface area, working in concert with ...
State the sum total of all LEDs in the array (even though they don't actually hit the surface in this aggregate fashion - a common ploy among LED "pads").
Here are a few examples ... '9 Joules/cm2 in 90 seconds' ... or '60 Joules in 90 seconds' ... or '80 Joules/cm2, per session'. None of these are worthy of comparison or consideration. Sorry, we know many of you have worked so hard, and have done so much note-taking homework already ... based on dupery. In fact, in response to the 'Numbers Game' one popular photorejuvenation machine distributor boasted two very different specifications in the space of a single year -- without a single design or part revision. They simply "recalculated" the math ... in a most calculating manner.
Now here's a specification for one of our standard photorejuvenation heads, driven by the actual DermaWave circuitry ...
22.4 joules/cm2 (per square centimeter) @ 590nm, 92% Duty Cycle, 60 seconds, at surface (actual skin surface, not LED dome surface).
If you don't see the kind of specicifity that we've provided above, then any nebulously incomplete ratings you encounter can be safely ignored and, indeed, should be ...
In a quick related aside, it gets worse ... Because there's no independent review of equipment in this industry (such as there is for cameras, audio equipment, and automobiles - toasters, even), too many people in this field are free to simply 'make it up', as they go - knowing that there's no one to actually check the specification claims, least of all ... you. And, no ... the FDA doesn't affirm specification parameters.
http://www.dermawave.com/power.htm |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:13 am |
This thread also makes for interesting reading:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=34986&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0
The grow light LEDs get a mention towards the end of the thread.
We seem to have gone a bit off topic from the initial post - but I think all the information we've been discussing is very relevant in deciding on an LED - especially one that is to be used on clients. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:10 pm |
I have a question: How many treatment areas are there on an entire face and neck, anyway? I am sure it depends on the device used and the size of the face, but, for instance, with LS, about how many areas to get your whole face and neck done?
Thanks! |
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Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:18 pm |
| chasemom wrote: |
I have a question: How many treatment areas are there on an entire face and neck, anyway? I am sure it depends on the device used and the size of the face, but, for instance, with LS, about how many areas to get your whole face and neck done?
Thanks! |
I do twelve. The instructions are here:
http://www.lightstim.com/how-to-use-the-led-photo-rejuvenation-lights.html |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:44 pm |
| I have the small Green LED panel ( 5 inches long by 2 3/4 inches wide. 120 LEDs) from the LED man,I use one minute per area, 10 areas in total .. it overlaps several areas.. on my cheeks I use 2 minutes instead of one and I dont use it on the neck... so it takes roughly 12 minutes... |
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Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:09 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| chasemom wrote: |
I have a question: How many treatment areas are there on an entire face and neck, anyway? I am sure it depends on the device used and the size of the face, but, for instance, with LS, about how many areas to get your whole face and neck done?
Thanks! |
I do twelve. The instructions are here:
http://www.lightstim.com/how-to-use-the-led-photo-rejuvenation-lights.html |
Thank-you, This was helpful. So, now I have figured out that if I use the Omnilux New U in the following manner, I could possibly get results near to the ones they got in the studies with the Omnilux professional Dr. grade equipment:
Oh, and to do this, I will be using two units--one in each hand.
Mon. Wed. areas: 1,2,3,4 30-minutes each area with 633nm (remember, I will have 2 units, so I can do 2 areas in 30 minutes). Next, areas 1,2,3,4 20-minutes each area with 830nm (using two units at a time, 2 areas in 20 minutes). Total: 100 minutes per treatment day.
Tues. Thurs. areas 5,6,7,8 (same as above).
Fri. Sun. areas 9,10,11,12 (same as above.
This gruesome schedule would give me 126J of red and 66J of infrared, 2X per week, almost like the study.
Finally, I have come to the conclusion that any unit without a cooling unit probably
is not powerful enough to do what I want it to, no matter what the CEOs of the companies claim. Many users have said this is not a magic bullet and results are minimal, at best, with all of the home devices. I think the reason for that is that most of the home units simply are not powerful enough and, really, believing a 14 watt grow panel could do anything is just wishful thinking. |
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