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Does facial massage break down collagen and elastin?

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krionika
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Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:12 am      Reply with quote
I've read in a handful of places that this is the case but I'm not sure.

I've recently started doing tanaka facial massage and noticed I have a couple of enlarged pores that have emerged on my face.

Is this connected to me doing the massage? and does facial massage break down collagen and elastin?
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Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:42 am      Reply with quote
The founders of the various facial exercise programs say that it builds collagen and elastin, vs. breaking it down.

However, your skin may be reacting to the new addition of massage, or whatever product you may be using when doing the massage.

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krionika
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Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:07 pm      Reply with quote
I use almond oil for the massage. Has this caused the enlarged pores? I don't see how as the pores aren't blocked.
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Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:35 pm      Reply with quote
krionika wrote:
I've read in a handful of places that this is the case but I'm not sure.

I've recently started doing tanaka facial massage and noticed I have a couple of enlarged pores that have emerged on my face.

Is this connected to me doing the massage? and does facial massage break down collagen and elastin?


Hi krionika:

I do not think your enlarged pores have anything to do with breakdown of collagen or elastin. Enlarged pores are due to dirt, excess oil and dead cells clogging your pores and making them larger. A deep-cleansing mask and exfoliation may help. More about that in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1qQbYNgv7E

I do not believe facial massage causes the breakdown of collagen. There are so many people in the DIY forum using gadgets that massage their faces who report good results. Also I have been doing a face exercise program that incorporates massage and this is my 7th year doing it and it hasn't caused me any issues.

Perhaps the massage has just woken up your sebaceous glands so you are having more oil production than before. Our very own Sandooch does Tanaka massage and a face exercise program and she has had very good results. She shared her photos here:

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=46471

And there is a program known as Facial Detox that is also about massaging the face to improve tone. These are some of its before/after photos:

Image

Image

More images can be seen on the homepage: http://www.facialdetox.com/

Tanaka massage is discussed in the following threads so check them out as they may give you some more insight into the program and probably provide tips on how to have a good experience with it:

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=36457

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=38445
panoslydios
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Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:06 am      Reply with quote
Maybe its just that the area is a bit toned after massage so pores look larger. Sometimes skin gets worse before it gets better if you know what i mean.

Btw on the 1st photo she looks hotter.
Also fist photo of the man looks more cool with the guru style Cool

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Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:54 am      Reply with quote
panoslydios wrote:
[...]

Btw on the 1st photo she looks hotter.
Also fist photo of the man looks more cool with the guru style Cool


If you are referring to the photos posted, I suppose it's all up to perspective (after all, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder). I respectively see opposite of what you see, ie the "after" photos as being improvements of the "before" photos.

Image

In the first photo, the lady's eye bags are bigger; her neck cords are beginning to show; her mouth corners go down giving her a sad face expression; her forehead wrinkles are more prominent and her face looks thinner--something that happens as we age; and she has jowls from her face sagging; her upper eyelids are hooded due to sag of skin above them. In the second photo her eye bags are diminished; neck cords smoothed out; mouth corners lifted and the wrinkles there smoothed out; her forehead looks smoother and her face has a plumpness that makes her youthful; jowls she was developing from sag have been lifted giving her a more defined jawline; her upper eyelids are visible as if she has had a cosmetic procedure done on her forehead to lift the skin up. In other words, she has definitely reversed some of the signs of aging that were beginning to show and looks much younger and refreshed in the second pic than in the first.

Image

As for the guy, I prefer his face in the second photo too as the bags he was beginning to develop are smoothed out; the sag in his cheeks that was making his N/L lines more prominent is lifted smoothing the N/L out the way fillers might; his forehead is lifted so that skin isn't hanging over his eyes but rather is lifted up to give a more awake/alert/less tired appearance; his face is filled out as if he has regained mass we lose with aging and his skin appears smoothed out. Instead of looking older 6 years later, he looks much younger! People pay doctors good money to have these changes made to their faces.

The other thing I like about their results is they still look like themselves only refreshed as if they have less stress in their lives, follow a better lifestyle (good diet, no smoking or heavy drinking, etc) and get a good night sleep that they were lacking before.
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Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:38 am      Reply with quote
panoslydios wrote:


Btw on the 1st photo she looks hotter.
Also fist photo of the man looks more cool with the guru style Cool


Seriously dont agree with your assessment. At all. Wink
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Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:38 am      Reply with quote
catski wrote:
panoslydios wrote:


Btw on the 1st photo she looks hotter.
Also fist photo of the man looks more cool with the guru style Cool


Seriously dont agree with your assessment. At all. Wink


I find that the woman on a second photo has a more masculine face. If it is less hot or more hot...depends on how you like it. Cool
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Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:20 am      Reply with quote
RussianSunshine wrote:
catski wrote:
panoslydios wrote:


Btw on the 1st photo she looks hotter.
Also fist photo of the man looks more cool with the guru style Cool


Seriously dont agree with your assessment. At all. Wink


I find that the woman on a second photo has a more masculine face. If it is less hot or more hot...depends on how you like it. Cool
I think she looks like a tired masculine face in the first and the same masculine face in the second, devoid of stress and toxicity. She definitely doesnt look like she changed gender from one photo to the other, to me.. Wink
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Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:05 pm      Reply with quote
Nonie aka AD wrote:
panoslydios wrote:
[...]

Btw on the 1st photo she looks hotter.
Also fist photo of the man looks more cool with the guru style Cool


If you are referring to the photos posted, I suppose it's all up to perspective (after all, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder). I respectively see opposite of what you see, ie the "after" photos as being improvements of the "before" photos.

Image

In the first photo, the lady's eye bags are bigger; her neck cords are beginning to show; her mouth corners go down giving her a sad face expression; her forehead wrinkles are more prominent and her face looks thinner--something that happens as we age; and she has jowls from her face sagging; her upper eyelids are hooded due to sag of skin above them. In the second photo her eye bags are diminished; neck cords smoothed out; mouth corners lifted and the wrinkles there smoothed out; her forehead looks smoother and her face has a plumpness that makes her youthful; jowls she was developing from sag have been lifted giving her a more defined jawline; her upper eyelids are visible as if she has had a cosmetic procedure done on her forehead to lift the skin up. In other words, she has definitely reversed some of the signs of aging that were beginning to show and looks much younger and refreshed in the second pic than in the first.

Image

As for the guy, I prefer his face in the second photo too as the bags he was beginning to develop are smoothed out; the sag in his cheeks that was making his N/L lines more prominent is lifted smoothing the N/L out the way fillers might; his forehead is lifted so that skin isn't hanging over his eyes but rather is lifted up to give a more awake/alert/less tired appearance; his face is filled out as if he has regained mass we lose with aging and his skin appears smoothed out. Instead of looking older 6 years later, he looks much younger! People pay doctors good money to have these changes made to their faces.

The other thing I like about their results is they still look like themselves only refreshed as if they have less stress in their lives, follow a better lifestyle (good diet, no smoking or heavy drinking, etc) and get a good night sleep that they were lacking before.


This is something I would like to know more about. Exactly what is it that has caused this woman's face to fill out - I'm not judging good or bad - but her face is much fuller everywhere in the second photo. So is it fluid? It can't be collagen or muscle mass in such a short time - 3 months. It is almost like swelling. It is not so much tighter as it is fuller. I would think that detox REMOVES fluid from the skin, but that is clearly not the case here. Is this water retention?
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Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:16 pm      Reply with quote
Panda1 wrote:



Image

This is something I would like to know more about. Exactly what is it that has caused this woman's face to fill out - I'm not judging good or bad - but her face is much fuller everywhere in the second photo. So is it fluid? It can't be collagen or muscle mass in such a short time - 3 months. It is almost like swelling. It is not so much tighter as it is fuller. I would think that detox REMOVES fluid from the skin, but that is clearly not the case here. Is this water retention?


Hi Panda1:

What causes the face to fill out is not something I can explain because I make a deliberate effort to not understand why exercises work when they do and why they don't when they don't coz it's sure to give me a headache. I leave that work to the pros who design the programs. What I can tell you though is massage seems to have that effect of filling out the face, which is why it is part of many programs and why massage gadgets are so popular.

The CFF program I do has always incorporated massage in its exercises. However, it seems not all massages are created equal because Carolyn, the founder, is always researching and finding ways to address issues she or her clients encounter over time, which is how bonus exercises to complement the foundational exercises come to be. At the link below, she explains that it was precisely a need to fill out the face in a way that seemed to have not been addressed yet in her program that led to the creation of the bonus massage exercise she calls "The Firmer" about a year or two ago:

http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/the-face-firmer-massage-technique-blog
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Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:59 pm      Reply with quote
Nonie - Just followed the short video clip and did the face firmer - Carolyn is amazing. I like how she incorporates the ideas of Stanford Bennet. I read his book and found it amazing what he accomplished and how youthful he became.

I am back to doing more of my favorite facial exercises to adjunct my Pico toner. They seem like such a logical fit. I like Carolyn's brush also - same idea as the face firmer.

I think she looks terrific; young and vibrant. She is an inspirational 67. Is she from Seattle - that's my old home!!!

Eva Frasier knocks it out of the park as a woman in her mid? 80's. She's a beauty. That really says something. I think her neck is amazing- better than most 50 year olds.

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Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:53 pm      Reply with quote
sister sweets wrote:
Nonie - Just followed the short video clip and did the face firmer - Carolyn is amazing. I like how she incorporates the ideas of Stanford Bennet. I read his book and found it amazing what he accomplished and how youthful he became.

I am back to doing more of my favorite facial exercises to adjunct my Pico toner. They seem like such a logical fit. I like Carolyn's brush also - same idea as the face firmer.

I think she looks terrific; young and vibrant. She is an inspirational 67. Is she from Seattle - that's my old home!!!

Eva Frasier knocks it out of the park as a woman in her mid? 80's. She's a beauty. That really says something. I think her neck is amazing- better than most 50 year olds.


And I totally agree, sister sweets, these women are good representatives of how face exercises continue to work over the years.

From her contact page, Carolyn appears to be in Seabeck, WA. She does look amazing and to me she seems to have had the "youth jump" we hear about and looks even better now than before.

Eva Fraser is indeed a cut above the rest hands down. She and Tom Hagerty are proof that face exercises continue to deliver way into old age. Very admirable indeed!
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Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:42 am      Reply with quote
It might be we need mirror world thinking here. ie It isnt so much that massage fills put the face, as that toxicity build up and lack of massage/touch/stimulation causes loss of fullness in the face.
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Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:04 am      Reply with quote
catski wrote:
panoslydios wrote:


Btw on the 1st photo she looks hotter.
Also fist photo of the man looks more cool with the guru style Cool


Seriously dont agree with your assessment. At all. Wink



Hm you cant see the guru beauty Very Happy


Image

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Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:02 am      Reply with quote
catski wrote:
It might be we need mirror world thinking here. ie It isnt so much that massage fills put the face, as that toxicity build up and lack of massage/touch/stimulation causes loss of fullness in the face.


Yeah, it just seems counter-intuitive that reducing build-up increases volume. That volume has to come from someplace. I'm ok with it being water retention, I'm just trying to understand how it occurs - and then how it maintains. I have done the facial detox massage a couple of times and I am just trying to understand the effects. The amount of time required to do the treatment is about the same as the time it takes me to apply my skin care products, so I think my face is getting plenty of touch/stimulation regardless.
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Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:48 am      Reply with quote
panoslydios wrote:
catski wrote:
panoslydios wrote:


Btw on the 1st photo she looks hotter.
Also fist photo of the man looks more cool with the guru style Cool


Seriously dont agree with your assessment. At all. Wink



Hm you cant see the guru beauty Very Happy


Image


Panos, guru beauty is shen and qi filled.
What you were admiring was more like gangland beauty, ie the look of late nights, stress and inadequate fresh air and dietary nutrition.
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Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:15 am      Reply with quote
Panda1 wrote:
catski wrote:
It might be we need mirror world thinking here. ie It isnt so much that massage fills put the face, as that toxicity build up and lack of massage/touch/stimulation causes loss of fullness in the face.


Yeah, it just seems counter-intuitive that reducing build-up increases volume. That volume has to come from someplace. I'm ok with it being water retention, I'm just trying to understand how it occurs - and then how it maintains. I have done the facial detox massage a couple of times and I am just trying to understand the effects. The amount of time required to do the treatment is about the same as the time it takes me to apply my skin care products, so I think my face is getting plenty of touch/stimulation regardless.


Master Tiong (aka facialdetox) says something about the right kind of exercise firming up the muscle (http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=48004) so I believe the HOW of the massage has something to do with it, and it more than just touching the face. Also I doubt it is water retention, unless we are talking about more muscle therefore more water because puffy eyes are sometimes due to water retention but what we seem to be getting here is not bloating of the face or I would expect to see puffy eyes.

I remember years ago reading that in order not to have "cut"/muscle defined legs that may be considered athletic by some but masculine by others, French women get their legs massaged so they are toned but without the muscle shapes showing through the skin. So maybe there's a bit of that; I mean we use certain muscles all the time so they get a workout that maybe tightens them at the expense of others and maybe that creates an imbalance so massage softens them some while increased circulation leads to removal of toxins and delivery of necessary nutrients making all the muscles happy. Perhaps also the way it is done (directionwise) ensures that you are not pulling muscles in ways that might stretch any related ones and create slack and therefore sag, not to mention that there is a likelihood that correct massage may trigger pressure points in the face believed to tone the face as used in programs like the acupressure facelift varieties.
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Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:18 am      Reply with quote
catski wrote:
panoslydios wrote:
catski wrote:
panoslydios wrote:


Btw on the 1st photo she looks hotter.
Also fist photo of the man looks more cool with the guru style Cool


Seriously dont agree with your assessment. At all. Wink



Hm you cant see the guru beauty Very Happy


Image


Panos, guru beauty is shen and qi filled.
What you were admiring was more like gangland beauty, ie the look of late nights, stress and inadequate fresh air and dietary nutrition.


Too funny catski Laughing but I am so with you there. Very Happy
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Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:15 am      Reply with quote
Nonie aka AD wrote:
panoslydios wrote:
[...]

Btw on the 1st photo she looks hotter.
Also fist photo of the man looks more cool with the guru style Cool


If you are referring to the photos posted, I suppose it's all up to perspective (after all, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder). I respectively see opposite of what you see, ie the "after" photos as being improvements of the "before" photos.

Image

In the first photo, the lady's eye bags are bigger; her neck cords are beginning to show; her mouth corners go down giving her a sad face expression; her forehead wrinkles are more prominent and her face looks thinner--something that happens as we age; and she has jowls from her face sagging; her upper eyelids are hooded due to sag of skin above them. In the second photo her eye bags are diminished; neck cords smoothed out; mouth corners lifted and the wrinkles there smoothed out; her forehead looks smoother and her face has a plumpness that makes her youthful; jowls she was developing from sag have been lifted giving her a more defined jawline; her upper eyelids are visible as if she has had a cosmetic procedure done on her forehead to lift the skin up. In other words, she has definitely reversed some of the signs of aging that were beginning to show and looks much younger and refreshed in the second pic than in the first.

Image

As for the guy, I prefer his face in the second photo too as the bags he was beginning to develop are smoothed out; the sag in his cheeks that was making his N/L lines more prominent is lifted smoothing the N/L out the way fillers might; his forehead is lifted so that skin isn't hanging over his eyes but rather is lifted up to give a more awake/alert/less tired appearance; his face is filled out as if he has regained mass we lose with aging and his skin appears smoothed out. Instead of looking older 6 years later, he looks much younger! People pay doctors good money to have these changes made to their faces.

The other thing I like about their results is they still look like themselves only refreshed as if they have less stress in their lives, follow a better lifestyle (good diet, no smoking or heavy drinking, etc) and get a good night sleep that they were lacking before.


you are spot on with your analysis
Wuchu facial detox technique system founder Master Tiong lastest photos taken July 2013
Master Tiong is 56 years young
The model is 51 years young
all photos are taken without any special effect and lighting
it is totally natural.
go to the link
http://youtu.be/cfbGi9psiQE

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Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:24 pm      Reply with quote
The lighting is different in the before and after photos.

About thirty years ago there was a newspaper ad by a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon showing a woman who had a chemical peel done on only half of her face. It was the best ad campaign ever because you saw how different the results were. The woman got the peel for free if she agreed to walk around in public for a year, then the doc did the other half of her face.

There are very few treatments or creams that would give you such dramatic results, which is why you don't see the half face treatments like that.
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Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:55 pm      Reply with quote
SoftSkin wrote:
The lighting is different in the before and after photos.

About thirty years ago there was a newspaper ad by a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon showing a woman who had a chemical peel done on only half of her face. It was the best ad campaign ever because you saw how different the results were. The woman got the peel for free if she agreed to walk around in public for a year, then the doc did the other half of her face.

There are very few treatments or creams that would give you such dramatic results, which is why you don't see the half face treatments like that.


The lighting in the photos being different IMO doesn't take from the fact that changes did occur that make face look fresher, fuller and firmer than it formerly did.

In another discussion where someone made the remark that most "after" photos are brighter than "before" photos, I took impromptu photos of my eyes in low light and can tell you, that dimness hides a lot of flaws. Maybe the reason "after" photos are posted in brighter light might be because the people feel more confident and happier with their results that they want to highlight/show them off.

I don't think the reason you don't see half-face treatments is because very few products give such dramatic results. I think the reason you don't see half-face treatments is because volunteers for such a crazy experiment are not easy to find. There's no way in hell I would ever do a treatment on half my face and use the other half as a control experiment. I'm way too vain for that. Laughing What if I ended up with half a fried face? Then what? Fry the other side to match or just walk around looking like I'm molting? Bad Grin Hayle naw! I personally don't need a right side vs left side comparison on the same face to see a difference. I mean, most people are not symmetrical anyway so one half of their face may not be a mirror image of the other...which means I can't be sure what changes took place unless I'm comparing the same side with how it looked previously not with another side that is not it. "Before" and "after" shouldn't be left vs right, coz that'd be like comparing apples and oranges.
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Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:18 am      Reply with quote
A surgical procedure or a chemical peel will give you dramatic results. A cream or serum or magic potion will not. That is why you don't see any half-face testimonials. There wouldn't be that much of a difference to notice without looking closely.

About a dozen or more years ago there was a new anti aging cream that was available by prescription only. Can't remember the name, it was the sort of name that people pronounced in two different ways because of the spelling. I think Courtney Cox was the spokesperson in the ads. My derm gave me a prescription and it wasn't cheap. Not a Retin A type product. I used it for 90 days on my right eyelids and surrounding area, not the whole face, because the skin was getting crepey. On the other eyelid area I used Active C. I was looking for a good cream to use under my eyemakeup because regular moisturizers gave me milia.

After 90 days, the Active C side was slightly but noticeably better. From that point on I used it because it was so much cheaper and more effective than the prescription only product.

That is what I'm talking about. If more women did that, they could save themselves so much money instead of constantly chasing "hope in a jar." Retin A is probably the only product that has reasonably good results. I think someone should contact one of the Retin A makers and volunteer to do a half-face experiment that would be used in their advertising in exchange for free products for life.
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Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:06 pm      Reply with quote
Softskin, I knew what you meant but even if I were someone into topical treatments, what you are suggesting would not be necessary nor would it be something I would want to do. IIRC, when you suggested it in another discussion and you got a similar response. I don't see the point for half-face experiments unless you are the one trying to sell something you made and want to be that extreme.

I believe I know my face very well. I see it all the time and if I were using a product to achieve a certain result, I would know if the product were working or not, because I happen to be more critical of myself than onlookers would be and would be looking out for the changes I paid to see. When my face got damaged by a face exercise program, the whole face changed. The photo you have seen from November 2005 was the result of 4 months worth of gradual deterioration. But I noticed the change within days of doing the program--which must have been minimal since some people who saw the cumulative results my Nov face say it doesn't look that bad. And as soon as I started to notice the horrible changes within days, I was on the phone calling the founder. I only continued because she said the uglies were a preamble to good results, but all I witnessed was a downhill spiral. I could tell this without working only half the face.

Some changes on the face are so gradual that the only way it is possible to know a change occurred is when one sees an old photo and then realizes a feature one used to have isn't there anymore in more recent photos. And really, I imagine for many people their own personal opinion matters more to them than what others think and I doubt folks are so oblivious to whether a product is working on them that they need to use half their face as a control.

And I revisit the issue of symmetry again: exactly how would that experiment help the people below?

Image

Image

Image

Image

Anyway, there is always someone who is a cut above the rest and you seem like one such candidate since this half thing appeals to you. So instead of regretting the absence of volunteers, you could just be the one to fill in the void and start the ball rolling. Maybe you will inspire other brave souls to follow suit and be the guinea pigs for the half-face experiment.
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Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:59 pm      Reply with quote
Again with the extremes! Where exactly did I claim skin creams could help deformed people? How do people with one eye bigger or higher than the other have anything to do with skin texture and elasticity from cream? Perhaps you are claiming they did the "half face" experiment and these are their results. You are too funny!
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