Eyes - face exercise
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free skin care · Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:41 pm

Hey Guys,

I was wondering if any of you have gone and done high resistance training around the eyes? This can include rubbing the thin skin under the eyes, or anything where there is mishandling of the thin skin under the eyes.

What have your results been? Did you do it and it made you look very tired but got better as it went along? Or have you tried it didnt like the results and stopped?

I look forward to your responses and experiences.

Thanks!

free skin care · Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:30 pm

Quote:

Hey Guys,

I was wondering if any of you have gone and done high resistance training around the eyes? This can include rubbing the thin skin under the eyes, or anything where there is mishandling of the thin skin under the eyes.

What have your results been? Did you do it and it made you look very tired but got better as it went along? Or have you tried it didnt like the results and stopped?

I look forward to your responses and experiences.

Hi Bob,

Eye training is probably the most controversial training there is. With years of cosmetic nonsense regarding eye tissue, and, not being able to pull that nonsense out of the mix, I can assure you a ton of misinformation will come your way. Example: 'I trained my eyes too aggressively and ruined them!' Actually the person trained aggressively, saw the breakdown of the tissue (puffy /w extra crape) so obviously he backed-off giving the eyes time to calm down (heal) Now suppose during the time the tissue was healing, he was told to routinely rub Crisco on the tissue. Guess what, once all was healed...Crisco had saved the day! Not only was the eye tissue healed, but the Crisco actually improved the texture of the skin! Laughing

Seriously, Skin cannot recover from PERMANENT damage. Estheticians can't fix it, Dermatologists can't fix it, and Surgeons can't fix it. They can only make it LOOK better.

If tissue is thin w/much wrinkling, the only thing that can actually improve the texture (naturally) is to break it down, bringing it in stronger (healing process...re-nit itself)

Now, if the main culprit causing skin wrinkles is sun damage... that's a lot trickier. Yes, there can and will be an improvement from training but how much is totally reliant on how much sun damage you're dealing with and the health of the trainer.

free skin care · Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:40 pm

thanks for that wonderful reply Deb.

I think that because the skin is so thin and if you dont have any wrinkles or fine lines around it, touching and rubbing it can lead to fine lines ? But I do agree (or want to) that rubbing wont lead to problems, but would actually be beneficial. I have definitely started rubbing more and more around the thin skin, but not yet directly on it.

Is there any more information you can provide in regards to this topic? Perhaps some pictures of people succeeding with this method? Hope to hear from you soon.

Thanks!

free skin care · Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:37 am

As Deb rightly says – Eye Training is one of the most controversial things out there that you will read a variety of different reports on. Often times people have posted in the past about massage etc and ruining their eyes (but then vanish without telling you that when they stopped and rested up things returned to normal) so its easy to understand why people are hesitant when it comes to training the eyes.

Initially when I trained my eyes for example, and I took some time to persuade by Deb (and it was before I was a trainer), when I first massaged my lids they went puffy. Now I understand this so much better now, but had I backed off then I would have missed out big time. I trained in massage also originally in a variety of different methods, and none of them spoke about massaging the lids, so it was alien territory to me, but I’m happy to report that I’ve since over the last 3 or 4 years found some of those methods have changed their mind and now include lid massages.

You see when I first began the massage on my eyes, they had been neglected for some time. The puffiness is usually fluid which the body creates or moves to the lid area in an effort to protect the tissue there. It does this because from the body’s point of view its being attacked. Its likely never been stimulated that way before, and the tissue there is known to it to be weaker say than the hands, so it goes out to protect itself from possible injury and also bacteria. What happens as a person continues to train, the body starts to learn that its not under attack per se, and does not need to respond in that same way. I found my eyes grew accustomed to it pretty quickly within a few weeks and nowadays if I don’t massage I can see the difference. One time I visited my sister, and didn’t have a chance to massage and she told me she thought I looked tired. That was motivation enough so I went upstairs and did a FlexEffect workout and massage and came back down and she said to me that I looked a lot better after having had a short nap and that my body must have needed it (ha ha – well it could only be that right).

With massage, one of the things I tell people is that your right the skin is thin there, but its often thin there and gets thinner because the tissue isn’t being stimulated. It has no reason to get thicker, because it is doing what it was designed for – protecting the eyeball etc. So by massaging the lids area you are stimulating the tissue, which is registered by the brain, and over time as a result the brain starts making the skin there thicker to meet the challenges that massage places on it.

Now touching and rubbing tissue doesn’t lead to lines. Sorry that’s a huge myth, bit similar to the idea that facial exercises create lines on the face. When we talk about lines of any sort, we are in essence talking about tissue that is damaged beneath the surface. That’s not usually caused solely by rubbing, but often by other factors like dehydration, lack of nutrients etc. The before/afters on our site have some great examples of what others have achieved with their training and take a look there (www.flexeffect.com), but please also note that these are only a range of examples we have had from satisfied customers and that we have seen many more people have dramatic changes within their eyes. Many clients when I first began training people would report that “if it worked I will tell all my friends”. Sure enough they achieved fantastic results and I would remind them of that statement to which they would usually reply that “they want to keep it as their secret”.

free skin care · Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:44 am

Deb Crowley wrote:

Quote:

Hey Guys,

I was wondering if any of you have gone and done high resistance training around the eyes? This can include rubbing the thin skin under the eyes, or anything where there is mishandling of the thin skin under the eyes.

What have your results been? Did you do it and it made you look very tired but got better as it went along? Or have you tried it didnt like the results and stopped?

I look forward to your responses and experiences.

Hi Bob,

Eye training is probably the most controversial training there is. With years of cosmetic nonsense regarding eye tissue, and, not being able to pull that nonsense out of the mix, I can assure you a ton of misinformation will come your way. Example: 'I trained my eyes too aggressively and ruined them!' Actually the person trained aggressively, saw the breakdown of the tissue (puffy /w extra crape) so obviously he backed-off giving the eyes time to calm down (heal) Now suppose during the time the tissue was healing, he was told to routinely rub Crisco on the tissue. Guess what, once all was healed...Crisco had saved the day! Not only was the eye tissue healed, but the Crisco actually improved the texture of the skin! Laughing

Seriously, Skin cannot recover from PERMANENT damage. Estheticians can't fix it, Dermatologists can't fix it, and Surgeons can't fix it. They can only make it LOOK better.

If tissue is thin w/much wrinkling, the only thing that can actually improve the texture (naturally) is to break it down, bringing it in stronger (healing process...re-nit itself)

Now, if the main culprit causing skin wrinkles is sun damage... that's a lot trickier. Yes, there can and will be an improvement from training but how much is totally reliant on how much sun damage you're dealing with and the health of the trainer.

Below shows sun-damaged skin after training:

Fixing my last post...The pictures didn't show. I swear I saw them Embarassed

free skin care · Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:59 am

I see them!

It's fascinating that every face responds the same. The eye area grows smooth, flat and youthful, and people underestimate the difference that tiny eye-opening muscle makes.... Look how wide open her eyes are!

Any problem with the eye tissues is temporary. Look at anyone who does facial exercises, when your muscles repair themselves they become more youthful. It's just a shame that people don't stick with it long enough to reap the rewards

Ll Smile

free skin care · Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:32 am

otherloulou wrote:

I see them!

It's fascinating that every face responds the same. The eye area grows smooth, flat and youthful, and people underestimate the difference that tiny eye-opening muscle makes.... Look how wide open her eyes are!

Any problem with the eye tissues is temporary. Look at anyone who does facial exercises, when your muscles repair themselves they become more youthful. It's just a shame that people don't stick with it long enough to reap the rewards

Ll Smile

Hey You!

I totally agree: And even still... simply excessive handling of the skin (more than necessary) the tissue is so resilient, a satisfied outcome is still attainable...NO DAMAGE

Below is Nonie. She now trains with CFF. While training with FlexEffect she (as some beginners do) over trained her eyes and per her account also overbuilt her face (too much lift, and too full) But, as you can see, by calming down her approach she looks GREAT today!

free skin care · Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:06 am

Deb Crowley wrote:

otherloulou wrote:

I see them!

It's fascinating that every face responds the same. The eye area grows smooth, flat and youthful, and people underestimate the difference that tiny eye-opening muscle makes.... Look how wide open her eyes are!

Any problem with the eye tissues is temporary. Look at anyone who does facial exercises, when your muscles repair themselves they become more youthful. It's just a shame that people don't stick with it long enough to reap the rewards

Ll Smile

Hey You!

I totally agree: And even still... simply excessive handling of the skin (more than necessary) the tissue is so resilient, a satisfied outcome is still attainable...NO DAMAGE

Below is Nonie. She now trains with CFF. While training with FlexEffect she (as some beginners do) over trained her eyes and per her account also overbuilt her face (too much lift, and too full) But, as you can see, by calming down her approach she looks GREAT today!

BEFORE: Overbuild

AFTER:

Fixed picture that didn't come in Rolling Eyes

free skin care · Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:28 pm

Deb Crowley wrote:

Hey You!

I totally agree: And even still... simply excessive handling of the skin (more than necessary) the tissue is so resilient, a satisfied outcome is still attainable...NO DAMAGE

Below is Nonie. She now trains with CFF. While training with FlexEffect she (as some beginners do) over trained her eyes and per her account also overbuilt her face (too much lift, and too full) But, as you can see, by calming down her approach she looks GREAT today!

BEFORE: Overbuild

AFTER:

Fixed picture that didn't come in Rolling Eyes

Let me clarify a few things here. I did not do Flex Effect any differently from how Deborah Crowley directed. When I first watched the DVD, I was horrified by how aggressively she pulled down on her under eye area. I actually called her to ask if that was safe to do. She assured me it was. The photo with the blue background was the photo that led me to buy the program and she referred to it and said her eyes look as good as they do because she worked them that hard. Ignoring every red flag, I trusted her and followed her advice. I called her back a few days in tears because my eyes were not looking good. She assured me it was normal for that to happen and gave that ugly change a name "awkward stages". I asked her what to do, she said it was a stage I had to pass through before I got results and that I had to "work harder"--her exact words. I had trouble believing this but she is very persuasive and reassuring so I once again gave her the benefit of the doubt...and continued with the program.

Anyone who knows me knows I am a stickler for following direction. I did the program exactly as directed, initially following the book and then the pacing CD. I was not liking how I was looking and while Deb had assured me that that would pass, I still needed to talk to her because I kid you not, the awkward stage she talked of was one of the scariest things I had experienced. I have already shared before the lengths I went to trying to reach Deb and I got confirmation she knew of my efforts to reach her but she never returned my calls, emails, PMs or personally delivered messages. So I combed through the forum for any ideas and sometimes it seemed the advice was to back off, and sometimes to work harder. Since working harder was not working, I tried backing off, or as Deb's calling it now "calming down my approach". So to see her shamelessly say I overworked my eyes/face when I simply did what Deborah Crowley out of her own mouth told me to do, I find unbelievably audacious.

What's more, I keep seeing her telling people that all it takes is to back off the exercises that caused problems and things will get better. Well, FYI, I did. I stopped FE on November 23, 2005 and my eyes did not return to how they looked in July 2005 before I did FE. All stopping did was make the puffiness and bulkiness go down but I did not get my former face/eyes back. After waiting for many months for my face to return to normal and nothing happening, I decided to try Eva's program (a calmer approach, right?) since it had never failed me for 15 years but it seemed the wrinkly sausage under my eyes and the laugh lines I now had after the bulkiness went down were here to stay.(I don't know if you all notice how she keeps harping on about how there was no damage. IMO, damage is any change that is not good. In fact Merriam Webster agrees with me

Quote:

1 dam·age noun \ˈda-mij\

: physical harm that is done to something or to someone's body

: emotional harm that is done to someone

: problems that are caused by a mistake, wrong action, etc.

: bad or harmful effects on a situation, a person's reputation, etc.

...which actually covers all the slandering that followed after Flex Effect caused the bad situation with my eyes and I told the world about it! So do not let her claim that this harm was not permanent diminish the fact that damage DID occur. Semantics do not change facts!

In the year following my stopping Flex Effect, I was emailing with Carolyn trying to find out if her program could help but I was too afraid to jump into something new just yet(once bitten....). In mid 2006, Carolyn advised me to rest my face from even "the calmer approach of Eva" for 6 months. I did. And even then, things did not return to the July 2005 normalcy. In fact the January 2007 photos you see on CFF website show what I ended up with. Nothing like I looked like before Flex Effect. Here are visuals:

These were my eyes when smiled on July 2005 before I ever did Flex Effect (smiling in the second pic):

These were my eyes after just 4 months of following Deborah Crowley's advice and program (I am smiling in the first pic--notice the lines when not smiling!!! Never had those before in my life):

And these were my eyes right before I started CFF, 13 months after I stopped the Flex Effect program that messed my eyes up. The large sausage rolls Flex Effect gave me were smaller in Jan 2007 than they were in November 2005 but now I had excess skin and wrinkles (I was smiling in these pics. They are a close-up of the Jan 2007 pics shown on the CFF website which document my eyes when I was starting CFF):

So the change Deb showed above that occurred from doing 8 months of CFF was not simply because I "calmed down my approach". Believe me, while giving FE a chance I tried being gentle. I stopped pulling down and tried doing the lower eyelid flex without resistance. I mean, put yourself in my shoes, wouldn't common sense tell you to try that? I did. When I tell you that I don't give a rat's arse about understanding facial muscles and how exercises work it is because Flex Effect introduced that side of face exercises to me including all the jargon. But knowing all that info served me no good and IMO serves them no good either or there would not be so many problems associated with the program that they need a forum and workshops to help people. I tried to use logic and common sense and to apply the advice on the Flex Effect website to try to solve my problem but nothing worked. Since "working harder" continued to make things worse, I tried the contradictory advice given on her forum by the woman herself and others: That of backing off exercises...doing nothing in the areas that were "overbuilt"...but nothing worked. I read up on what muscles might have been overbuilt on her forum and tried backing off the exercises that her book said targeted those muscles, but all that information did me no good. Nothing in that program could fix my problem. No advice posted by Deb or her trainers Jason and Olympia on the forum served me well. And it was when I saw that many others had the same issue and had also not found a solution and then saw the smiling eyes of a trainer who had done the program for many years and her eyes did not look as good as those of people her age who didn't do the program, that I knew I had to stop. I knew I would never improve my eyes doing Flex Effect. And to date, I have not seen any long-term Flexers with smiling eyes that look good unless they have had work done. Loli looks good but I was reading the forum when she joined it already well armed with a good foundation of knowledge and background in face exercises and I remember her sharing that she doesn't do the whole program. So IMO her results look good because she does her own thing.

My eyes are now back to normal NOT because I took a break or did the same exercises in Flex Effect more gently. My eyes got better because I committed to a new program (CFF) that is:

Also there is no need to pull down the way Deb encourages people to do in her program

without the need to pull down aggressively

So Bob44, I can tell you that you will see good results of eyes on the Flex Effect website but most are taken after only a few months and most do not show people smiling which is when eye flaws show up. And in case anyone buys into the lie that I am simply bashing Flex Effect, here is an example of someone whose eyes looked great after two months of Flex Effect. But she is not smiling. Still there is clearly and improvement so we can give her that:

http://www.flexeffect.com/Cecilia.htm

But after a year or so, at the age of 38, those very youthful eyes looked like this when she smiled:

And when not smiling, they looked puffy as they form a ridge under the eyes which is why Cecilia posted the image that I have cropped this from:

So I am sorry but I disagree with the claim that aggressive exercises for the eyes are OK, and in particular the lower lid exercise in Flex Effect to be precise. I also have NEVER seen evidence of the so-called "awkward stages" coming to pass. No evidence ever posted. Even when the pinch and roll was touted as the solution to puffy eyes from FE and I asked if anyone had actually seen it help, PC (an FE trainer) posted on the FE forum asking people to share success stories. No one ever did. All I ever saw were photos of bad changes as people sought help, then never again. My conclusion, they too realized that doing the same program that caused you problems expecting different results is madness.

Now it has been said in the past that these negative things only happened to me...but I can tell you that could not be farther from the truth. I am just the only one who will not keep quiet about it, and who is brave enough to show the evidence. Unless it has been deleted, there is a thread on the Flex Effect forum by "tryharder" posted on November 25, 2008 at 2:06 pm in which she was sharing photos of how wrinkly and lined her eyes had become a year after starting FE which is another example that this idea that the aggressive training of the eyes found in the program is supposed to be good is not true. And as was typical every time someone had an issue and shared it, everyone (greatday, pattymarie in this case) jumped in to tell her she looked great. Never mind that she herself could see how much worse her eyes had become. Which begs the question: why bother doing face exercises if wrinkly eyes are what you end up with? Might as well let nature take its course. I think it is experiences like these which keep being excused that give face exercises a bad name. People are told the changes aren't thaaaat bad and they buy into the lie and that becomes the story of what happened when they did face exercises.

Another example that helps to show that there is really no method to the madness on Flex Effect and you're damned if you and damned if you don't, which is why it is so easy for trainers to blame the clients when things go wrong is this: there's a client called Cee who posted on January 20th, 2008 at 2:38 PM on the Flex Effect forum to complain about pouches under her eyes. Cathy was the first trainer to respond and her suggestion was she should keep going with the eyes exercises and back off the cheek raiser because according to Cathy she was getting excellent build in the cheeks and eyes just needed to catch up. Then she suggested it could be her diet to blame. Next Sean came on and blamed stress in her life, not drinking water...and in no uncertain terms added that nothing in the FE program would cause this issue she was having. (Really now?) and then in the same breath he said that she may have overworked the eyes and needed to take a break. (See what I mean? How the heck can anyone be expected to know what to do when even those directing the exercises including Deb herself cannot figure out whether folks should work harder through the awkward stages or back off? And why have we never seen the awkward stages that Deb claimed were also her preamble to the eyes she has today?)

So yeah, to reiterate: the good results I have today are due to me stopping the entire program that changed my face in a way that wasn't pretty and in place of it, doing a completely different set of exercises from a different program that addressed my entire face in a balanced way and also worked my facial muscles correctly. I have never had overbuild with this new program (CFF) and I have never had to back off any exercise while doing it, yet my face continues to get better with very passing year. And in case anyone is wondering, I still do the same exercises exactly as I did them in 2007. I have added bonus exercises as Carolyn has recommended them but again, not because I overbuilt anything or developed anything I didn't like.

So yeah, when it comes to working the eyes, who will you believe? Me who has shown you evidence not with just one pic but several pics showing proof of everything I write about from how my eyes changed and went through the so-called awkward stage and how nothing suggested by Deb worked to fix the issue...to providing a photo essay of my eyes' improvement posted on CFF website, or Deborah Crowley who keeps harping on about how wonderful her program and methods are and yet does not have a single piece of evidence to show that awkward stages that are part and parcel of her program ever came to pass (not even her own awkward stages that she told me about over the phone that she had to go through to get the eyes she had on the photos of her kit!). Nor does she dare post even updated photos of any of the models on her website to show how well the program has continued to deliver. Even her trainers daren't share their pics! Cathy is the only trainer who at the drop of a dime showed her photos when asked for them, and since I had seen her photos before Flex Effect, I can tell you that IMHO her eyes could be so much better if she hadn't subjected them to the aggressiveness of this program. Upthread I mentioned a trainer whose eyes convinced me to quit Flex Effect. And here's full disclosure: it was her eyes when she smiled that convinced me to stop Flex Effect because if after all the years she had done Flex Effect by the time I joined the program, her awkward stage had not left, then surely I was not going to be anymore the luckier and I was not going to keep flogging a dead horse.

And in case anyone wants to see my eyes over the course of doing CFF, what Deb posted was just early days-8 months into CFF. You can see my eyes 2 years later and then about 4 years 10 months later at the following link: http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/nonie-eyes

free skin care · Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:48 am

Yikes here we go again and same old stories coming up.

To clarify a few points:

“There would not be so many problems associated with the program that they need a forum and workshops to help people.”

The fact that FE was one of the first programs to open a forum really to me was an indicator of how much it cared for people, and the fact it invited people to share their successes and progess too is also one of the thing I like. With “awkward” stages they are possible with any and every program out there because not all muscles respond at the same rate and time, nor do they build equally when a person trains and over the last few years we’ve recognised that and explained it many times and helped people around those. At one point I must confess I did feel a bit abused because I was helping so many people out of “awkward” stages from other programs, and nowadays I no longer do that. Likewise there are occurences that can be found with every program out there – even with the one you do I understand that someone called Theresa had issues with her eyes – despite it being a gentler program.

“I tried to use logic and common sense and to apply the advice on the Flex Effect website to try to solve my problem but nothing worked.”

Well as mentioned many times before, that’s not something advisable to do. You freely admit you don’t have knowledge of the science of the face or its terms, so trying to solve this would have been incredibly difficult for you or anyone else. That’s why Deb instituted qualified trainers onto the forum, so people would have points they could contact if issues did arise. I’m not aware of this having happened since the time you reported (and granted I wasn’t a trainer then) but I think its commendable that Deb took on board your feedback and instituted something to prevent that from ever happening again.

“Saw the smiling eyes of a trainer who had done the program for many years and her eyes did not look as good as those of people her age who didn't do the program, that I knew I had to stop. I knew I would never improve my eyes doing Flex Effect. And to date, I have not seen any long-term Flexers with smiling eyes that look good unless they have had work done.”

Okay fair enough that’s your opinion, but you watched the 3rd edition dvd right (from memory you mentioned previously somewhere about cross stretching etc) so are you honestly saying you think Audrea’s eyes are bad? Loli has always been very clear in what she does and has said many times that she does the exercises (all) but also incorporates other things like massage and particular skin care products.

“My eyes are now back to normal NOT because I took a break or did the same exercises in Flex Effect more gently. My eyes got better because I committed to a new program (CFF) that is:
And
3) the author of the CFF program has a good understanding of the subject and is focused and takes a personal interest in her clients' success assuming a hands-on approach in providing customized direction/advice to any clients that need it so there's no guess work or contradicting directions that get you nowhere.”

Could you explain the reason why that program is so better if it impacted Theresa so much. I mean she was also young I understand when she started (under 30 I believe). Also there was some interesting information that she indicated that she was left alone and without assistance until she posted on EDS from memory.

“So I am sorry but I disagree with the claim that aggressive exercises for the eyes are OK, and in particular the lower lid exercise in Flex Effect to be precise. I also have NEVER seen evidence of the so-called "awkward stages" coming to pass. No evidence ever posted. Even when the pinch and roll was touted as the solution to puffy eyes from FE and I asked if anyone had actually seen it help, PC (an FE trainer) posted on the FE forum asking people to share success stories. No one ever did. All I ever saw were photos of bad changes as people sought help, then never again. My conclusion, they too realized that doing the same program that caused you problems expecting different results is madness.”

That’s quite a jump to make conclusion wise, but just because there isn’t evidence you have seen doesn’t mean that it hasn’t helped people. I suspect this is more to do with people sharing their photos and losing ownership of them (I mean take Pea’s photos from this thread – I doubt you asked her permission to reproduce her photos and its great that she was aware that you did that).

“Now it has been said in the past that these negative things only happened to me...but I can tell you that could not be farther from the truth. I am just the only one who will not keep quiet about it, and who is brave enough to show the evidence.”

Actually no that has not been said at all. What has been asked of you many times is to let us know who you were. Deb doesn’t receive many complaining calls of issues like you report frequently and keeps regular notes and files so when we started hearing of the apparent distress you were in, several times she examined her files and couldn’t find anyone reporting that but one other person. Even when you have been asked for your details, or even when you purchased you have refused to give us any information – which is fine its your right, but it just makes us really sceptical of whats being said here because there is no information to back it up.

“There is a thread on the Flex Effect forum by "tryharder" posted on November 25, 2008 at 2:06 pm in which she was sharing photos of how wrinkly and lined her eyes had become a year after starting FE which is another example that this idea that the aggressive training of the eyes found in the program is supposed to be good is not true”

Great reminder – that thread has a lot of great information and I would really advise others to look at it because you will see there is so much more going on there rather than just aggressive training.

“People are told the changes aren't thaaaat bad and they buy into the lie and that becomes the story of what happened when they did face exercises.“

Again completely incorrect, what often happens is there are other factors involved like diet, lifestyle etc. Facial exercises are not a magic bullet that stop a person from aging or freeze their faces.

“Which is why it is so easy for trainers to blame the clients when things go wrong is this: there's a client called Cee who posted on January 20th, 2008 at 2:38 PM on the Flex Effect forum to complain about pouches under her eyes. Cathy was the first trainer to respond and her suggestion was she should keep going with the eyes exercises and back off the cheek raiser because according to Cathy she was getting excellent build in the cheeks and eyes just needed to catch up. Then she suggested it could be her diet to blame. Next Sean came on and blamed stress in her life, not drinking water...and in no uncertain terms added that nothing in the FE program would cause this issue she was having. (Really now?) and then in the same breath he said that she may have overworked the eyes and needed to take a break. (See what I mean? How the heck can anyone be expected to know what to do when even those directing the exercises including Deb herself cannot figure out whether folks should work harder through the awkward stages or back off? And why have we never seen the awkward stages that Deb claimed were also her preamble to the eyes she has today?) “

At no part do we “blame” people but we suggest areas where they may need to be some small changes. That’s part of the beauty that there is so many different levels of expertise between the trainer and both suggestions that were made were valid (and I am sure there would have been others). Notice though your post reinforces what I describe above about other factors. Stress plays havoc with the body and so does dehydration and when a person experiences either (and usually both are together) it will impact the look of a face. Stress and hydration are normal human experiences, but what they do to our bodies are the problem. You really don't believe diet and lifestyle play a role in the aging process - wow but sorry these are known to have a tremendous effect on how someone feels.

“I have never had overbuild with this new program (CFF) and I have never had to back off any exercise while doing it, yet my face continues to get better with very passing year.”

Great very happy for you – but why then did Theresa get the results she did if the program is so great? Was it overbuild she had? Seems that any program is capable of that.

“Me who has shown you evidence not with just one pic but several pics showing proof of everything I write about from how my eyes changed and went through the so-called awkward stage and how nothing suggested by Deb worked to fix the issue...to providing a photo essay of my eyes' improvement posted on CFF website”

Which was how many years ago – has to be 7 or 8 right. And its not actually proof its simply photos and a story - which could in all reality be a complete lie. I haven't found anyone who backs up your story at all - despite you repeatedly telling me that there were people on the forum who felt the same as you and said you were getting bad treatment - where did they all go? Surely if they left the forum they would share your experiences else where - not seen that yet but happy to be corrected. Also its still nonetheless interesting that despite the fact that you say this program ruined your eyes, you still visit the forum, still read posts on there and take copy of photos produced on there too (which interestingly enough is why the workshop forum was created to prevent people from stealing others photos).

The amount of aggression you have towards us is remarkable but like most things the repeating of the past without any constructive feedback isn't helping anyone and probably puts more people off facial exercises.

free skin care · Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:32 am

^^ TL;dr but the attitudes leveled against anyone who isnt on Team FlexEffect is what turns ppl off the program.

Many other programs out there where a more gentle and supportive tone is extended. Facial exercise shouldnt be a competitive sport!

Just my 2¢. Flame me if you wish.

free skin care · Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:32 pm

fawnie wrote:

^^ TL;dr but the attitudes leveled against anyone who isnt on Team FlexEffect is what turns ppl off the program.

Many other programs out there where a more gentle and supportive tone is extended. Facial exercise shouldnt be a competitive sport!

Just my 2¢. Flame me if you wish.

Fawnie

Please don't take this as a flame... but you have it backwards. What you read coming from FlexEffect is ...Defense on the part of FlexEffect.

There are several people on this forum that have nothing to do with FlexEffect who will support what I'm saying… and why would they… what's in it for them… unless it’s true.

Where in my last post (above) was I attacking Nonie or Cff? Bob was concerned about eye damage "mishandling of the thin skin under eyes" My post made it clear that even when someone thinks there is no hope, given time and possibly changes in there training... things get better. Quite frankly, there was no one else I could refer to that could collaborate what I was saying as well as Nonie’s story. His reply to my post..."Thanks for that wonderful reply Deb"

Then read Nonie's post that follows! WHOA

It is always like this. I would LOVE nothing better than to see this sick scenario end. Nonie has STATED over and over again... she will NEVER drop it. She considers it her duty to worn the populace, so, where does that leave FlexEffect...on defense...over and over and over and over and over again. NO FREAKEN END TO IT!

I truly get it...you and everyone else that reads this BS is sick of it. But I swear to you, it is not coming from FlexEffect (no one in there right mind who owns a facial training business would ever consider this kind of nonsense helpful... if anything, quite the opposite.

Oh Well...brace yourself...it's coming again Rolling Eyes

free skin care · Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:02 pm

LOL Deborah Crowley said "Brace yourself!" She sure thrives off drama doesn't she?.

fawnie like you, I don't read anything Sean writes anymore. Same ol' nonsense he has been coached by Deb to echo.

What frustrates Deb is that the terrorist tactics that she uses to make everyone else too afraid to share publicly their negative experience with Flex Effect don't work on me. Not even when she masquerades as a lawyer who can't spell Wink

and who uses a Yahoo account and sends a threatening letter with a link I never clicked on. Bad Grin

The bowels she will stoop to while calling herself a upstanding business woman are laughable.

As for manipulating not just people but words, and reading more into what is written than what is actually there...typical! It becomes amusing actually to see Deb get all flustered over voices in her own head that no one else hears. I think the funniest one was when she announced to everyone that my testimonial on CFF blames her program and then added that I said in said testimonial that I never owned CFF when I was doing FE. I nearly passed out laughing when shortly after she posted that misinformation I was flooded with emails saying "Wait a minute, so it was Flex Effect that messed up your face???"

The jokes write themselves I tell ya! All this time the unmentioned program was not known to everyone and it seems some didn't really care to know but Deb made certain that there was no mistaking which was the program that sucked so badly for me. Also one or two people confirmed that nowhere in my testimonial do I say that I didn't know of CFF when I was doing FE. I suppose embellishing stories comes easily to some people.

As for playing victim to garner pity and take the focus off the facts...not surprised at all! Deb's implication is that I stated that I will never stop telling people how horrible her program is. Not true! What I have said and say again is I will never stop doing is telling MY entire experience with face exercises--the good, the bad and the ugly. My story, my prerogative. Don't like it? Don't read it.

I'm sure if it were up to Deb, what she would have me do is tell how well face exercises can maintain a youthful face if you start them before aging begins, like what happened to me between the ages of 20-35 with Eva Fraser's program. Then it seems she wants me to be mum about what happened to me around the age of 35-36. Pretend that was just a blur? And then she wants me to share how I fixed aging problems with face exercises by doing CFF. I am not sure exactly how I am supposed to marry the theory that face exercises prevent aging with the fact that I did end up with aging that needed fixing. Think

Am I supposed to make up a lie? What like a disease? Or am I just to pretend no one will wonder why I suddenly aged? And what, let people think that even after 15 years of maintaining tone that I suddenly age without warning just because I stopped doing Eva? And what reason am I supposed to give for stopping face exercises? To see what would happen? Oh lawd a muddled web we weave when we try to deceive! I will not subscribe to the Deb's school of sweeping dirt under the carpet and telling tales that don't add up. Takes too much work trying to keep lies straight. The truth is so much easier to remember.

So like it or not, I will share my whole story for it is a story of hope. My story shows that a good program like Eva's can keep your face youthful if started early so you delay signs of aging. My story also encourages those who already have signs of aging by showing them that they can be removed so it looks as if they never existed. Most importantly my story shows those who, for whatever reason, believe face exercises are bad either because they heard it, witnessed it or experienced it themselves, know that that does not have to be the end of the story and that doing another program can undo the damage and restore their faces back to normal.

My horrible experience with Flex Effect allowed me to see firsthand a side of face exercises I never knew existed; one I would have been in denial about, since in 15 years I had never witnessed anything negative w/r/t face exercises. That negative experience with Flex Effect also allowed me to feel what it is like to look in the mirror and not like what you see--a humbling experience but that served to make me sensitive/empathetic to people who may be unhappy with how they look. So I will never stop telling THE TRUTH, the WHOLE TRUTH...even though the truth hurts. It is freeing to not hold back and rewarding to know that my courage has helped so many find a silver lining in clouds of doubt.

BTW I find that Deb strange posts a "Defense" rather funny peculiar. The first thread where Deb decided to start drama this week was the thread asking if Face Exercises were safe. I never mentioned the programs that give bad results when I posted in that thread many weeks ago. I simply stated a fact: that bad things do happen with face exercises as well as good things. IIRC, someone else brought up FE. Even still I never said that I was posting Alice's face or that she got that effect from Flex Effect or even the same program I did. I like to use images to show what I mean and hers were a good example of another look over imbalance from A (any) face exercise program. That thread had been long buried and forgotten and everyone had moved on to other topics without the need to know what program those people I posted did. Not even when I addressed the poster who brought up my experience with FE, I still left the details about Alice out of my posts. Alice is the one who showed up long after the thread had gone to sleep, revived it and filled in the missing parts. I suspected Deb was behind that because her MO is so obvious to me (even when she pretends to be new posters and shows excitement about her own programs hoping to elicit group think LOL). I even told someone that I bet you Deb will post shortly. And like clockwork, she did. LOL Just like when she sent John to address me in a thread that had nothing to do with the topic he showed up to discuss. I had not said anything in that particular thread that warranted him addressing me with a discussion of how good FE works for him. No one was even discussing that. It was another case of Deb turning the attention from the topic at hand to promote her program. How pathetic!

I don't go out of my way to find posts by Deb to challenge her lies. In fact, I sometimes do talk positively about her program when it is warranted: like how not too long ago I used her as an example to show that the upper eyelid lift in the program works and gives longlasting results. And what did she do later in that discussion? Come to diss my advice as "ridicules" [sic]. She can't just live and let live. I don't agree with her recommendations like the pinch and roll under the eyes, but I didn't post right after she suggested it to tell everyone how ridiculous what she just suggested is even though I have evidence of how someone's eyes looked awful after months of doing that. Instead if an opportunity presents itself where I can give any face exercise program kudos, I do--even if the program is Flex Effect. Just recently someone posted she was unsure whether FE could fix marionette lines and I showed her that it did fix Cathy's as seen on her FE before/after page and I suggested this ask FE trainers. The lady took my advice and went to the FE forum to follow-up and ask Sean if FE could help. (You're welcome Deb!)

Yet Deb is driven by such bitterness (at her own program's failings and wants to pass on blame) and by such arrogance that she refuses to deal with the problems that have cost her dearly. Instead of all these shenanigans, IMO she'd do well to focus on:

If Deb would stop being self-righteous and making excuses for her program and go back to the drawing board to see how to right the wrong, I think Flex Effect could become the program she wishes it were.

Flex Effect is not the only program that gets a bad rap. Maggio has been bashed on the Flex Effect forum and on this forum but you don't see Carole wasting time bulldozing her way into every discussion in the name of playing Defense. And I bet her business is doing well in spite of the haters.

Success isn't measured by how loud you can roar but by how well your product delivers. This "woe is me" performance of trying to convince people that I am on a mission to destroy your business, Deb, so unprofessional and frankly embarrassingly immature. FYI, YOU are not that important or relevant to me, Deb. You only ever come to mind when you or one of your puppets interrupts a discussion to tell lies especially when I become a reference for those lies, and then I am forced to set the record straight and to reveal what YOU really are like. Otherwise what I do on forums--what enjoy doing--is discussing my experience with face exercises and sharing any info I have. That Flex Effect just happens to be the ugly part of that experience is not my fault. Quit blaming me for your sins.

Toodles Flexers wave

Carry on preaching the Gospel according to Deborah Crowley and entertaining yourselves, I'm out!

free skin care · Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:59 pm

Hi Deb Crowley, are there any uptodate photos of trainers? I can see the ones posted but they are the same ones I saw a couple of years ago. I don't see any of before/after Sean, Cathy,...
Thanks.

free skin care · Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:38 am

I have been doing the eye massage as per Deb's post, simply pinching and massage across both eyes for perhaps 3 times across each eye and I cannot believe the improvement in my eyes, the skin is lots thicker and the puffiness gone, the difference is amazing. Please don't miss out on this just because of scare mongering.

Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:41 am

I have always avoided messaging skin around my eyes. Many people have experienced pain by doing so.

free skin care · Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:22 am

Hi ATester

Hope you don’t mind me responding, but I’m Sean and a trainer at FlexEffect. Its true there is and has never been a before/after photos of me on the website, but there are several different reasons for this. I have posted current photos though many times, and am going to get some done shortly so will alert you when they are up.

Thank you.

Sean

ATester wrote:

Hi Deb Crowley, are there any uptodate photos of trainers? I can see the ones posted but they are the same ones I saw a couple of years ago. I don't see any of before/after Sean, Cathy,...
Thanks.

free skin care · Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:25 am

Pain should never be ignored for sure, and I wouldn’t advise anyone to go after pain with massage. In fact quite the opposite. Massage around the eye area should start off gently. Its a method of stimulating the tissue and doesn’t need to be done heavy handed initially and a great deal of benefit can be done with light massage, however as people progress and the tissue grows stronger people tend to gain confidence and increase the pressure or resistance used. Many who were against the FlexEffect suggestions of massage didn’t give up (thank goodness – that was never our intention to persuade people never to massage) and even massage techniques like Tanaka which involve eye massage have produced some amazing results. So look into that, there’s a great thread on EDS with comments and suggestions and it’s a gentler massage technique that you may enjoy doing, that’s in harmony with the body etc. Pain is not the target here at all – not even with FlexEffect. Thanks for the heads up!

pamelawalmer wrote:

I have always avoided messaging skin around my eyes. Many people have experienced pain by doing so.

free skin care · Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:30 am

Hi Fawnie

Just reading Nonie’s post and I never realised I had done anything towards you to cause you to not read my posts but apologies if I have.

Facial exercises don’t have to be a competitive sport at all – and I’m all for encouraging people to do them even if its not FlexEffect, but when someone creates stories around their experience (which is their experience not yours or mine) in an attempt to blacken the name I do take issue. You have been around for a few years and I’m sure have read the same story over and over again. For one, many of the issues that have been highlighted have been corrected.

I hope that you yourself know many of the issues that Nonie has raised (again based on her experience some seven/eight years plus ago) have all had actions taken to ensure they don’t happen again. I always thought I had a good tone with people of different programs, and have always offered help no matter the circumstances in the past to people even with issues of other programs without bad mouthing or suggesting the program they were doing was bad.

I’m very aware of whats also said behind the scenes – it always comes back to me eventually and have heard some of the most ridiculous things attributed to me that are just laughable and completely false. However, I’m not prepared to sit by and ignore comments aimed at hurting me and the profession I’m in and imagine most people in my shoes would do the same.

fawnie wrote:

^^ TL;dr but the attitudes leveled against anyone who isnt on Team FlexEffect is what turns ppl off the program.

Many other programs out there where a more gentle and supportive tone is extended. Facial exercise shouldnt be a competitive sport!

Just my 2¢. Flame me if you wish.

free skin care · Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:06 pm

SeanySeanUK wrote:

Hi ATester

Hope you don’t mind me responding, but I’m Sean and a trainer at FlexEffect. Its true there is and has never been a before/after photos of me on the website, but there are several different reasons for this. I have posted current photos though many times, and am going to get some done shortly so will alert you when they are up.

Thank you.

Sean

ATester wrote:

Hi Deb Crowley, are there any uptodate photos of trainers? I can see the ones posted but they are the same ones I saw a couple of years ago. I don't see any of before/after Sean, Cathy,...
Thanks.

Thank you Sean.

Bob44, About eyes, I do find massages to be great as you know. Doing high resistance training of the eye muscles has only led me to tired eyes if done daily, yet had good results with "milder" exercises every two days or a highly resistance training maybe twice a week, definitely not on a daily basis.
For me massaging the eye area is different from high resistance training the muscles of the eye area, and I do like to massage the area by rubbing with the muscles contracted -à la Stanford Bennett- as it has helped my skin to thicken but also will agressively massage maybe once a week by rolling and pinching to help thicken the skin, and will have some puffy eyes the next day to then have them look better about two days later, and the lymphatic massages I really like a lot, they're great for eye bags due to water retention.
If you do not have any issues around your eye area I would keep whatever you do light, just maybe light massage to maintain and some lymphatic drainage ever so often to prevent the eye bags.
HIH, A.

free skin care · Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:23 pm

Flexeffect doesn't cause permanent damage, that's bonkers. The face will always recover if you give it a bit of time off. Nonie's face recovered. If you look a bit blah you just need time to recover, not a different programme, different exercises, etc.

Nonie, why have you written all these pages and pages of posts about this? How many people have you PMed about this? It's hard to take it seriously because it eventually comes round to you praising another programme.

It's not fair to spread this stuff and scare people off Flexeffect. My programme is a lot different from Flexeffect but I can't stand by and have this said about it. It's been going on for too long now, and it's clear to many of us who is behind this campaign

free skin care · Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:47 am

hey guys,

Can we just stick to the topic?

question - anyone have results with vigorous eye massage?

the end goal of this topic is to discuss the long term effects of eye massage.

Simply put, what some of you have said in pages can be condensed to a paragraph at most.

I really liked the last responses by LouLou and ATester where it can help but you will have puffiness for a day after, which makes logical sense. But my question is, do you think 2 or 3 days after your eyes are better off than they were a week ago? Does the massage cause fine lines and wrinkles?

I appreciate all your responses as they are informative, but please try to stay on the topic Smile

Thanks!

free skin care · Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:06 am

bob44 wrote:

hey guys,

Can we just stick to the topic?

question - anyone have results with vigorous eye massage?

the end goal of this topic is to discuss the long term effects of eye massage.

Simply put, what some of you have said in pages can be condensed to a paragraph at most.

I really liked the last responses by LouLou and ATester where it can help but you will have puffiness for a day after, which makes logical sense. But my question is, do you think 2 or 3 days after your eyes are better off than they were a week ago? Does the massage cause fine lines and wrinkles?

I appreciate all your responses as they are informative, but please try to stay on the topic Smile

Thanks!

Hi Bob,

In answer to your questions.. I have vigorously trained my eyes (rub, pull, stretched...you name it) for over 30 years. I'm serious when I say I doubt anyone on this planet has taken it to the limits that I have. Bottom line...Where is the damage?

The answer to your question... "In two or three days look better?"...
Now that's more of a stretch than my training Laughing

You really have to be in for the hall.. however long it takes (everyone is different)

Please Note: I don't own a monopoly on eye training; any and all eye training offers results, and there are so many programs to choose from!

I had put these pics up before. but they didn't take. trying again.

Again.. where is the damage?

free skin care · Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:51 am

Thanks Deb,

But did you notice a phase where your eyes were not looking so good? (puffy and wrinkled). I think that is the difference between us (the face exercisers) and others, we stuck it out through the trial and error and now our faces are more adjusted.

For instance I can now rub my skin quite harshly anywhere and it is becoming quite resilient. I have been doing this for over i think 5 years now and i dont have any sag or anything like that. I think someone on here can vouch for that.

Now my curiosity lies in the eyes, but the eyes to me may be very different. I do know they say never to rub your face but i pushed that one. I am not sure why I am still listening to them saying not to rub the eyes. I do think if I do start this, it will definitely not look good for a bit, I can almost guarantee that.

I think I just rambled on. Thanks for the useful post Deb, thats exactly the discussion I was hoping for in this thread.

free skin care · Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:58 am

Hi Nonie,

Thanks for the input into this thread. Thats the great thing about a message board, everyone is allowed to voice their opinions.

I think there is a bias at times when we make a thread because we know the answer we are looking for so pretty much just want support for that answer. I really appreciate you adding your 2 cents.

If I may prod a little bit, I understand that you were vigorously rubbing your eyes and the results were not quite what you wanted. (To be honest, I would expect the eyes not to respond well to the initial rubbing). My question is, how long did you stop rubbing them for and did you take pics after you stopped rubbing them? Did you notice improvements? Because I would think it is just like a injury and the swelling eventually subsides. were you able to take pictures during the vigorous exercise and after the vigorous exercise?

I hope none of my posts come off as though I am attacking someone. I really value all of your guys input into this thread Smile

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