Combining facial rejuvenation techniques
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free skin care · Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:01 pm

Over the past few years I have acquired various gizmos such as the clarisonic and the tria age defying laser but I struggle at how it is possible to layer the treatments over time without over doing it.

At the moment I am planning to stick with a basic combination of Dermal Needling and LED treatments with my Baby Quasar device. On the dermarolling thread there is a discussion on the frequency of rolling and the possible detrimental effect on collagen production and breakdown if one were to roll to frequently. So I am curious about how this impacts on the use of other skin care devices.

For example if I were to use a 1.0mm dermaroller once every 4 or 6 weeks would it be deleterious to inbetween rolling use my Newa Radio Frequency device or for that matter my Baby Quasar device?

Also what about facial exercise and massage are these practices wise when attempting to induct collagen with dermal needling or should the skin be left alone?

I will hopefully be getting the The Concise Guide to Dermal Needling delivered tomorrow so perhaps some of these questions are covered in that but if anyone has any advice on how to structure the layering of these techniques even including the tria laser and chemical peels for best effect ane even better is anyone has found any reseach papers on this matter that would be great.

Even if it works out how I can put together a sort of year length program to improve and maintin my skin using different approches at various points though out the year.

free skin care · Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:32 am

These are some great thoughts and some very pertinent questions. I don't have all your devices but was considering several of them...but how to fit it all in with my regular routine along with micro needling, peels and facial exercises?
I worry a lot about stunting the stimulation of collagen by sticking in yet another procedure or just throwing too much at my face at one time by being overzealous and doing more damage than good by lacking patience. I also worry a lot about over exfoliating. Some irritation is good but too much sets you back. I do try to listen to my skin and back off despite any schedule I might be on. I'm still always searching for the best routine though.

Maybe someone can add some thoughts to all of this...the right way to make it all a positive.
But if the book makes anything clearer could you please let us know?

free skin care · Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:43 am

I dermaroll, use tretinoin and C serum. I also do facial exercises (Ageless). I think you bring up a great point about the potential harm in overdoing things. I don't use skin care gadgets
but would wonder if I was doing more bad than good if I was. I try to do a chemical peel once every 4-8 weeks. Like around 40% glycolic. I still wonder if it is needed with all the other things I do or maybe it's overkill. Tough to say as my skin looks great. Confused

I think the much bigger issue is the newbie who just get's started and bombards their skin with everything at once.

free skin care · Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:24 am

Pandora77

I love your enthusiasm but want to give you some important information.

Yes doing facial exercises and massage are not a wise practice to do when using dermal needling. Dermal needling when done properly needs down time to heal up and recover. If you do aggressive practices like facial exercises and/or massage, you will actually interrupt that necessary down time and can as a result end up interrupting the healing work that needs to take place.

Think all of these techniques as “stimulation” because in essence that is what they are. You are stimulating the body to rejuvenate and usually become stronger/healthier. So if you do a process like needling, you need to enable it to have that downtime to heal up and recuperate. Doing anything that interrupts those processes is going to lead you down a murky path.

Now in your “Conscise Guide” I doubt you are going to find mention of facial exercises/massage (but if so please do let us know) as this a relatively different field that most medical professionals are not yet interested in (though that is starting to change!).

pandora77 wrote:

Over the past few years I have acquired various gizmos such as the clarisonic and the tria age defying laser but I struggle at how it is possible to layer the treatments over time without over doing it.

At the moment I am planning to stick with a basic combination of Dermal Needling and LED treatments with my Baby Quasar device. On the dermarolling thread there is a discussion on the frequency of rolling and the possible detrimental effect on collagen production and breakdown if one were to roll to frequently. So I am curious about how this impacts on the use of other skin care devices.

For example if I were to use a 1.0mm dermaroller once every 4 or 6 weeks would it be deleterious to inbetween rolling use my Newa Radio Frequency device or for that matter my Baby Quasar device?

Also what about facial exercise and massage are these practices wise when attempting to induct collagen with dermal needling or should the skin be left alone?

I will hopefully be getting the The Concise Guide to Dermal Needling delivered tomorrow so perhaps some of these questions are covered in that but if anyone has any advice on how to structure the layering of these techniques even including the tria laser and chemical peels for best effect ane even better is anyone has found any reseach papers on this matter that would be great.

Even if it works out how I can put together a sort of year length program to improve and maintin my skin using different approches at various points though out the year.

free skin care · Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:59 am

You have no clear data to back the statement up that facial exercises and/or massage will interrupt the down time and can as a result end up interrupting the healing work that needs to take place. For that matter, I have no clear data that they wont. Don't want to get into a pissing contest about this. Just stating my opinion. I believe Dermarolling and facial massage work in different pathways. Look at it this way. You would not Dermaroll the whole body and then say I don't have to go to the gym now. So why would this be any different with the face? It's not.

free skin care · Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:53 am

Pandax12

You are correct I don’t have any data or scientific proof to back up the statement other than the last 7 years I have spent training people in facial exercises. If you look at the whole concept of derma rolling you will see that the inflammation response is part of the process, and my concern is that you or someone else if you did facial exercises/massage would actually interrupt that process pure and simple. Of course it depends what system you are using – but any stimulation is going to hinder that part of the recovery process pure and simple.
Now you say they work different – absolutely I’m not arguing that point. They both have different targets though and if you look at the dermarolling process and the studies that have been done on it – you will recognise that the healing is the part where the body starts to make additional collagen and elastin in response to the injury caused. So therefore anything that you do that interrupts that process is going to have an impact.

Now with your point about the whole body and the face – there are substantial differences that I don’t have time to go into but thinking the face and body are exactly the same is actually incorrect – there are great differences, for one skin thickness varies throughout the body. Secondly with the body the skin is generally thicker than the face (exception is back of hands, which interestingly enough is usually the same thickness as the eyelid area). However with the body, whilst you would induce damage to it, you would not be using that body part non-stop as you would say the face (and just think how many times your face moves in comparison to your body on a day to day basis. Talking, eating, etc are just some examples of where we use our faces much more than we use our bodies).

If I was to wait for scientific proof that facial exercises worked – I’m going to be waiting a very long time. Same with massage. I’ve trained in massage and worked as a masseur for the last 10 years – but guess that counts for nothing in your book. However happy to leave you to make your own conclusions there as you are not interested in anything I have to say.

Sean

free skin care · Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:27 am

Actually I’ve just had a quick chat with some colleagues who do this professionally and stand corrected.

They advise people to avoid direct sunlight, extreme temperatures (i.e. no hot showers) and working out because of the impact it has on both the punctures from the dermarolling, but also the blood vessels near the surface of the skin too. So guess it is the same for the body and the face after all?

They also state NOT to use any Alpha Hydroxy Acids, Beta Hydroxy Acid, Retinol (Vitamin A), Vitamin C (in a low pH formula) or anything perceived as 'active' skincare.

Pandax12 wrote:

You would not Dermaroll the whole body and then say I don't have to go to the gym now. So why would this be any different with the face? It's not.

free skin care · Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:54 pm

Again, your throwing all kinds of theories based on opinion. And a very minority opinion at that. And don't sound all hurt that I don't want to hear anything you say. Does having a different opinion mean that? Of course not. A MUCH MUCH bigger issue is the large % of people who roll their face/body far far too often. I've read some of your comments in the past and you seem to think facial exercise is the be all end all in skincare.

free skin care · Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:21 am

I am a little confused as to what your issue is with me, but suffice to say that I have shared my experience of having taught facial exercises and having had clients who have derma rolled and done facial exercises. That may not be to your liking or backing up your theories but I think from what I understood the original poster was asking for others experiences. If you look at the science behind derma rolling (and there is substantial scientific explanation of what happens during and afterwards) you can clearly see that anything that interrupts or stimulates the body is going to take it out of repair mode. This isn’t opinion, but biologically based. I don’t know anything about you – other than what you have said in this thread but why you seem to be unable to accept that any form of stimulation can impact dermarolling is beyond me.

Secondly you say you have read some of my comments in the past and I “seem to think” facial exercise is the be all end all in skincare – you are completely wrong. I have never said such a thing, nor would I. Skincare is an artform and science and each and every person is different and I wouldn’t compare skincare to facial exercises because they are very different things. Having said that you have your opinion and you are entitled to it as I am to mine. Maybe I shouldn’t share my experiences – but when genuine people are asking genuine questions and seeking guidance then I like to be as helpful as possible.

free skin care · Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:27 am

I've rolled very consistently for over 3 years. Read a bunch about rolling over that time. And not ONCE have I read that it is not wise to do facial exercises while rolling. Even if someone did say that, they likely had a bias against facial exercises and believed they do not work and would not have any credible science to back their opinion up. And you mention to not do other modalities such as tretinoin, C serum, peels while rolling. Those are just the things that many people who roll use also. Again, I may not have science to back up my claims and you certainly have none to back yours up. Keep your lone wolf opinion. I'm done with our interaction.

free skin care · Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:48 am

Huh – what on earth is going on here? I can’t help but wonder why you seem so against me and my experience but it is okay. As I stated previously I am a Facial Exercise Trainer and have trained many hundreds of people in doing them over the last several years, but I have also had clients who wanted to use facial exercises in conjunction with things like derma rolling. I get that counts for nothing in your book but I am afraid it gives me a wealth of experience that you can’t even fathom in helping others. Whilst it is not to your liking – tough.

That makes your point about someone not advising to do facial exercises whilst derma rolling completely wrong. Likewise no two facial exercise programs are the same – just like no two body exercise programs are the same. So making a generalisation like you have is completely inaccurate and incorrect.

Guess you also missed that the guidelines re topicals came from a clinic that does professional derma rolling and wasn’t my suggestion. Again it illustrates your example of dermarolling the body and then doing exercise wrong (again).

free skin care · Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:34 am

I can fully understand where Pandax12 is coming from..Your statement of not using any actives when dermarolling goes against nearly every study that I've read. Likewise, I've never read of any complications of using facial exercises and derma rolling at the same time.
Are you really trying to say that you can only dermaroll or use actives or do facial exercises but not in any combination? This is the first time I've seen such a statement made.

free skin care · Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:54 am

Okay just for clarity I’m reposting what I wrote previously:

SeanySeanUK wrote:

Actually I’ve just had a quick chat with some colleagues who do this professionally and stand corrected.

They advise people to avoid direct sunlight, extreme temperatures (i.e. no hot showers) and working out because of the impact it has on both the punctures from the dermarolling, but also the blood vessels near the surface of the skin too. So guess it is the same for the body and the face after all?

They also state NOT to use any Alpha Hydroxy Acids, Beta Hydroxy Acid, Retinol (Vitamin A), Vitamin C (in a low pH formula) or anything perceived as 'active' skincare.

That information came from people who carry out dermarolling professionally and work as medical professionals at a clinic. Those are the guidelines they give people. Now my understanding is that the length of the needles they use is drastically different than one would use on their own faces at home, but that is the information they give people prior to them having sessions.

Now the “actives” are acids and they gives precise examples. That is not my statement or recommendations – these are simply professionals I know that have worked in the field for the last 10 plus years in Harley Street and this mirrors information I have found online.

They are not against actives but are simply making a “best recommendations” here. If you were to continuely use Alpha Hydroxy Acid on freshly rolled skin that may not be the best choice. Likewise using it daily on skin would leave it more open to the possibility of infection. However doing a dermarolling session after say applying a Vit C serum or something similar would allow that active to penetrate deeper into the derma – but that’s substantially different than applying daily after a derma rolling session. There is a vast difference here, and that information came from their after care leaflet. The reason I posted it above was because of the comment re rolling the body and then going to a gym, because that is not something that the medical professionals seem to advise. I don’t know their reasons but I will ask and see if I can gain further clarity for you.

Likewise with facial exercises – I can only give information based on the last 7 years I have had of training many people. If you believe that it will do no harm then by all means follow your own intuition, however just monitor and notice if your body gives you indicators that something is up. You are rarely going to read about the combination of facial exercises and derma rolling because these are substantially two different things with similar but different goals. I certainly won’t be sharing any more information about it again because of the headache this has given me.

Having said that tigerlily you can just ignore all my advice. Same for Pandax12. Its been a useful reminder why I gave up sharing my knowledge of forums before and won’t be doing it again. Thanks for the reminder you two!

tigerlily009 wrote:

I can fully understand where Pandax12 is coming from..Your statement of not using any actives when dermarolling goes against nearly every study that I've read. Likewise, I've never read of any complications of using facial exercises and derma rolling at the same time.
Are you really trying to say that you can only dermaroll or use actives or do facial exercises but not in any combination? This is the first time I've seen such a statement made.

free skin care · Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:58 am

Quote:

Having said that tigerlily you can just ignore all my advice. Same for Pandax12. Its been a useful reminder why I gave up sharing my knowledge of forums before and won’t be doing it again. Thanks for the reminder you two!

I'm not sure I understand why you're so quick to take offense when challenged or questioned. I wasn't being rude in the least. Maybe if you would back up your claims with some scientific data than it might be more helpful.

free skin care · Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:03 am

You were not the least bit rude Tigerlily. All we were doing is challenging his opinion that goes against the grain. Sad he takes it so personal. He does have much good knowledge about facial exercise that many could learn from.

free skin care · Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:21 pm

Hey, Sean. Personally, I'm was so glad to see you back on EDS. I just started semi-frequenting here again after about a year or so.

Sorry for the degradation of your personality from Pandorax 12 I actually agree with what she is saying regarding the many unknowns and also the different perspectives on derma rolling, even from professionals, and I have appreciated her input on her experience with the wounding/healing process of derma rolling (in another thread) but her degrading attitude is really difficult for me to read

I literally was at the point of physical nausea from the way some people used to respond to others on this forum which is why I quit coming here for a while and I know many others felt the same way…which is partially why this forum is, imo, for the most part, so uninteresting lately.

Anyway, since this thread isn't about only derma rolling, (which I don't do yet but am gathering info about) I appreciated what you said in your first post about how each different modality we apply to our skin is a stimulation and it's important not to overstimulate the skin, to create ever new stimulations on top of a stimulation that hadn't resolved itself yet.

I understand this concept well from homeopathy. Rather than taking homeopathic remedies every few hours or twice a day or whatever mechanical regime may be recommended by some homeopaths (actually most homeopaths) my homeopath studies with a world renowned teacher that has his clients becoming aware of when the next dose is needed. There is a peak time,not taking it too soon when there is still healing left to experience from the last dose, but i too take it ideally before there is a sliding backwards in the total healing process from waiting too long This process can cause anyone to wait anywhere from a few hours to (often)weeks between taking doses of remedy, and is entirely personal and individually unique.

Anyway, I wasn't paying enough attention to this same process with my skincare till I read your post in this thread. It's very helpful to my situation at this moment.

I also have some questions related to you micro current and facial exercise post in another thread but haven't the time to post for a few days or so.

Anyway Hope you continue posting but can totally understand if you don't.

free skin care · Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:03 pm

Actually, Pandex12, perhaps your attitude was not degrading to Sean (at least not consciously)It just might be that I am oversensitized from folks who were truly denigrating to each other here in the past.

At any rate, I do find your posts very informative.

free skin care · Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:27 pm

jasminerosey wrote:

Actually, Pandex12, perhaps your attitude was not degrading to Sean (at least not consciously)It just might be that I am oversensitized from folks who were truly denigrating to each other here in the past.

At any rate, I do find your posts very informative.

Thank you. I'm guy BTW. Angel

free skin care · Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:18 am

Its not that I’m quick to take offense, but much of the information I shared was immediately stretched far beyond what it actually says. Even to the point about topicals – I shared that wasn’t my information but some I actually got from colleagues who work with dermarolling – yet everyone wants to say its my opinion and my information.

For example you said previously: “..Your statement of not using any actives when dermarolling goes against nearly every study that I've read.” That was actually about an aftercare leaflet that some colleagues from a clinic give to others. I have not done dermarolling – but I’m not against it and actually understand why it works etc.

Likewise this statement “Are you really trying to say that you can only dermaroll or use actives or do facial exercises but not in any combination? This is the first time I've seen such a statement made.” Which is far from what I have said. I have simply advised that if someone derma rolls then following with immediate techniques that cause stimulation can have an impact on the body or faces ability to heal. Far from not being able to combine both – as I said previously I have had clients who have combined both but simply you have to be smart about doing so. Likewise using say a hydroxyl acid immediately following a derma rolling session may not be the best idea (and when you look at the studies you will see that they often apply a topical prior to doing the deram rolling to encourage deeper penetration. However there is a vast difference in doing that, in comparison with using acids immediately following a derma rolling session.

To me I can see where I say one thing, and immediately other people are misconstruing things that I have said and trying to cause confusion over what has been said which I am not comfortable with. Likewise it really is an attack on me to start saying I said “a,b,c” when you look and see nothing of the sort has been said.

I simply was sharing my experience of working with people who have combined both as to what they have discovered, and yet seem to have been personally attacked for it for no apparent reason. Likewise I find it interesting that people are asking for scientific data, yet they do facial exercises still even though there isn’t fully conclusive scientific data backing that up. If I was to wait for scientific data for everything I would be waiting a long time. I’m not sure I am understanding why scientific data is more important and overweights experience but ca la vie.

tigerlily009 wrote:

I'm not sure I understand why you're so quick to take offense when challenged or questioned. I wasn't being rude in the least. Maybe if you would back up your claims with some scientific data than it might be more helpful.

free skin care · Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:21 am

I have not said anyone was rude, but clearly there is an agenda here going on against me that I am not aware of. I am not against being challenged, however it takes a very different pathway when what is said is misinterpreted and words are put into my mouth that I clearly didn’t say. You say my opinion goes against the grain – well sadly that’s just your opinion and has no weight or backing. I have worked with many clients who HAVE COMBINED the techniques of derma rolling and facial exercises sensibly. Perhaps if you weren’t so busy putting words into my mouth and read my messages for whats there rather than what you think I have said you would understand this.

Pandax12 wrote:

You were not the least bit rude Tigerlily. All we were doing is challenging his opinion that goes against the grain. Sad he takes it so personal. He does have much good knowledge about facial exercise that many could learn from.

free skin care · Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:38 am

Hi Jasminerosey

Good to hear from you. Yes I took a break from EDS and may be taking another break.

I completely understand and appreciate the unknowns however there is clearly to me a secret agenda that I’m not aware of going on here. I simply shared my experience where I have worked with clients who choose to COMBINE both. I wasn’t saying they couldn’t be combined at all. Likewise when I shared the aftercare information (which I was not the creator of) re topicals I find it amusing that people keep attributing to me that I say they cannot be combined.

My philosophy is entirely based on working with the body on all levels, physical, emotional, nutritional and that’s a little different to the way a lot of people work with. The body has an integrity within it that needs to be honoured and when it comes to rejuvenation – I have found constantly that when you work WITH the body so much more is capable of changing. Whilst I know of homeopathy, I haven’t studied it in any great depth but know some people swear by it. I have one client who swears going to a classical homeopath was life changing for her (my understanding is classic homeopathy uses one remedy, whereas some modern forms will use 2/3 remedies).

What I find incredibly frustrating is that a lot of what has been said by me in this thread is greatly stretched and sometimes entirely misrepresented. Even to the point where I started sharing that I worked with people who combined both – it suddenly turns into that I said that they can’t be combined. Nothing is further from the truth.

Sean

free skin care · Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:04 am

Bottom line is your statement of "Yes doing facial exercises and massage are not a wise practice to do when using dermal needling" was not going to go unchallenged on this forum. You took it personally when you were challenged on this and then cried you were being attacked.

And you seem to be the one putting words in people's mouth: "I’ve trained in massage and worked as a masseur for the last 10 years – but guess that counts for nothing in your book."

When you make a statement, people tend to take that as what you mean. we don't read minds. For example your statement here: "They also state NOT to use any Alpha Hydroxy Acids, Beta Hydroxy Acid, Retinol (Vitamin A), Vitamin C (in a low pH formula) or anything perceived as 'active' skincare."

Does this mean never to use while rolling or just when doing medical rolls or cosmetic rolls? Sure sounds like never to me. We don't read minds. It's clear you are not very familiar with Dermarolling.

Your statement of "Those are the guidelines they give people. Now my understanding is that the length of the needles they use is drastically different than one would use on their own faces at home, but that is the information they give people prior to them having sessions."

You do realize that people use the same size rollers at home as they do in clinical settings?
Rollers 1.0mm and up
No you don't realize this. Skin doctors are going to frown on rolling at home with longer needles for obvious reasons. They want you to come to them and spend your $$$$

I said it before that I was done with my interaction with you but this time I truly am. You can't have a debate with someone who is clearly in the dark on the subject.

free skin care · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:04 am

Couldn’t agree more myself:

Pandax12 wrote:

I said it before that I was done with my interaction with you but this time I truly am. You can't have a debate with someone who is clearly in the dark on the subject.

free skin care · Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:47 am

Pandax12 wrote:

Bottom line is your statement of "Yes doing facial exercises and massage are not a wise practice to do when using dermal needling" was not going to go unchallenged on this forum. You took it personally when you were challenged on this and then cried you were being attacked.

Actually I am fine with being challenged, by all accounts however when things are deliberately altered (my words) to prove a point that’s where I have major issues. You seem to be completely intolerant to anything I say, regarding my experience or the clients I work with which is absolutely fine. I can live with that.

Pandax12 wrote:

And you seem to be the one putting words in people's mouth: "I’ve trained in massage and worked as a masseur for the last 10 years – but guess that counts for nothing in your book."

I don’t see how this is putting words in your mouth or anyone elses? It is showing where my level of experience comes from. At no point have I said that Facial exercises and derma rolling cannot be done (despite your attempts at saying I have said so). I’ve said it is not a wise practice to do and explained the reasons why just so people can be aware. You have repeatedly asked me for scientific data – for which there is none either way (which you clearly acknowledge). Yet you yourself do exercises without that proof – and so I’m completely bewildered by your reluctance for anything that isn’t scientifically back. Even when you look at dermarolling and scientifically what is known about it and the reactions to that within the body you can see that downtime and healing is necessary which none of your posts acknowledge.

Pandax12 wrote:

When you make a statement, people tend to take that as what you mean. we don't read minds. For example your statement here: "They also state NOT to use any Alpha Hydroxy Acids, Beta Hydroxy Acid, Retinol (Vitamin A), Vitamin C (in a low pH formula) or anything perceived as 'active' skincare."

You say this and yet if you read the actual wording correctly you will see it does not say “I” but “They”. Meaning it is someone else’s suggestion not mine. If you were to read the actual words I say you wouldn’t be jumping to so many incorrect assumptions about what is actually said rather than what you think I said which are vastly different.

Pandax12 wrote:

Does this mean never to use while rolling or just when doing medical rolls or cosmetic rolls? Sure sounds like never to me. We don't read minds. It's clear you are not very familiar with Dermarolling.

Now you see if you had asked that “Does this mean” instead of trying to attack me it would have been very different. You “presume” I am not familiar with derma rolling – yet time and time again I’ve mentioned I have had clients who have done both (successfully and got good results – but guess you missed that). I maintain that it is important to monitor when doing for the reasons I have explained, and also have discussed that there are different types of programs – my own suggestion was if someone was doing an aggressive program that had a lot of physical manipulation that this could interfere with healing.

Pandax12 wrote:

Your statement of "Those are the guidelines they give people. Now my understanding is that the length of the needles they use is drastically different than one would use on their own faces at home, but that is the information they give people prior to them having sessions."
You do realize that people use the same size rollers at home as they do in clinical settings?
Rollers 1.0mm and up
No you don't realize this. Skin doctors are going to frown on rolling at home with longer needles for obvious reasons. They want you to come to them and spend your $$$$

You may feel comfortable with recommending people to use the same equipment that they do in professional clinics but I do not. For one, clinical staff are trained – and things can happen that someone at home may not have experience of dealing with. Whilst I understand there have been some brave people who have moved on to using the same lengths as clinics my understanding is that they didn’t do this from Day 1.

free skin care · Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:15 pm

Oh dear, was not expecting this question to result i such heated discussion.

I do appreciate all the replies and thoughts although their is some difference of opinion. I guess this stems from the fact that currently we have no proper studies of what happens when we combine these various techniques over the short and long term.

Unfortunately Dr Setterfield's book does not shed a great deal of light on the question of facial exercise, he does recommend lymphatic drainage in the 1st week but I imagine that may be less intense than some forms of massage practiced by members of this forum, myself included.

I actually think that Sean's advice to refrain from facial exercise makes sense to me personally although I have no evidence to back that up with. I have been down the road of doing too much at once to my skin in the past and these days for myself I tend to err on the side of prudence.

Again in the consice guide to dermal needling, Dr Setterfield does suggest to avoid using acids for about 2 weeks post deep roll as the effect of the acids effect the keratinocytes which in turn effects their signalling to the deeper skin layers and the building of collagen. He seems to be ok with the use of acid toners past the point and careful use of acids for specific conditions.

On the other hand he does advocate the use of vitamin a topicals retinal and even retinoids if well tolerated.

There seems to be no real evidence either way regarding the combination of facial exercise and dermarolling so I find both view points useful and I suppose it is up to each of use to decide. Have their even been any proper studies on facial exercise, most plastic surgeons and dermatologists I have see asked about them are skeptical but the point could be made that they would say that.

Perhaps emotions run high because we all worry we might be missing a trick or doing more harm than good, I know I do!

Thank you again to all who posted.

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