Non-shampoo shampoo? aka Chagrin Valley Shampoo Bars
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free skin care · Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:47 am

Has anyone ever heard of washing your hair with just shea butter, coconut oil, and various other emollients in the form of a bar?

http://www.chagrinvalleysoapandcraft.com/shambar.htm

The reasoning:

Quote:

Commercial shampoos found in grocery store aisles are actually made from various detergents, synthetic materials, processed chemicals and cleansers, and stabilizers that are harsh on your hair and scalp and strip it of it's natural protective oils and moisture. In order to compensate for the way in which they strip natural oils from your scalp, you reach for the bottle of conditioner. These conditioners simply coat the hair weighing it down. When that coating is removed your hair has more body.

No Detergents

Most over the counter shampoos use harsh surfactants or foam boosters such as sodium laurel sulfate (SLS). SLS, often called a premium agent in soaps and shampoos, are used in personal-care products because they are very cheap. A small amount generates a large amount of foam, and when salt is added it thickens to give the illusion of being thick, rich, and expensive. Sodium laurel sulfates were originally designed to clean floors and can be found in items like garage floor cleaners, engine degreasers, and car wash soaps. It was also used by the military as a defoliant agent during the Vietnam War.

The strong degreasers in Sodium laurel sulfate dry skin and hair, irritate the scalp, and may cause hair loss. It is used in many so-called "natural" cosmetics, but it is not natural. Our shampoo bars do not contain Sodium Laurel Sulfate, Benzoin, DEA (diethanolamide) or any other chemicals that are found in most commercial shampoos. Our bars contain only natural ingredients that clean and nourish the hair and scalp.

No SLS or
Artificial Foam Boosters

Commercial shampoos use synthetic fragrances or "nature identical" oils, preservatives, colorants and other additives that can irritate your scalp. The "natural" shampoos simply add herbal extracts to their synthetic shampoos. Commercial shampoos use scents from fragrance oils that are often heavy and overpowering. Our scented shampoo bars are made with natural and clean smelling pure plant essential oils from natures finest botanicals, NOT a synthetic fragrance oil or natural fragrance copy. There are no artificial colors or fragrances.

free skin care · Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:13 am

Shampoo bars are common on some hair care forums. You would not be cleansing with oils and butters, some of the fatty acids have been saponified - so you would be using an alkaline soap. I am all for you quitting sulphates (anionic surfactants) as they are highly irritant, proven to thin the stratus corneum and do indeed cause hair loss in some individuals. What 1% SLS does to healthy skin, bear in mind the average commercial shampoo is ~20% sulphate
http://www.eczema.org/aqueous_cream.html
IMO replacing that with a soap which strips the acid mantle is not necessarily an improvement.

Alternatives include using a sulphate-free shampoo based on non-ionic surfactants, conditioner-only washing or cleansing with herbs like amla. I CO-wash and my skin and hair are MUCH happier: glossier locks, less greasy scalp and T-zone, mild atopic eczema virtually gone. Conditioner washing works because you are utilising the gentle cationic surfactants they contain. You need to choose a light, silicone free brand such as V05, Suave or Inecto: products such as WEN are a pricey version of this concept.

HTH! Cool

free skin care · Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:00 am

oasisjc wrote:

Has anyone ever heard of washing your hair with just shea butter, coconut oil, and various other emollients in the form of a bar?

http://www.chagrinvalleysoapandcraft.com/shambar.htm

Yes, I have used the Chagrin Valley shampoo bars. I really like them, and they definitely helped with the eczema on the side of my scalp. The bars actually leave the hair very soft.

free skin care · Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:38 am

Firefox7275 wrote:

IMO replacing that with a soap which strips the acid mantle is not necessarily an improvement.

Alternatives include using a sulphate-free shampoo based on non-ionic surfactants, conditioner-only washing or cleansing with herbs like amla. I CO-wash and my skin and hair are MUCH happier: glossier locks, less greasy scalp and T-zone, mild atopic eczema virtually gone. Conditioner washing works because you are utilising the gentle cationic surfactants they contain. You need to choose a light, silicone free brand such as V05, Suave or Inecto: products such as WEN are a pricey version of this concept.

HTH! Cool

I thought these soaps are not supposed to strip the acid mantle?

free skin care · Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:47 pm

Meh. I've tried LOTS of shampoo bars over the past 7 years. This is the best one that I've ever tried, but there were two problems I experienced:

(1) It still left a tad bit of residue on my hair, though it wasn't evident until after a handful of shampoos...perhaps from the glycerin in the shampoo?

(2) Their shampoo bars are very alkaline in my book. How do I know? My skin, while normal is all other regards, is sensitive to products with a high pH. I could tell from the very light stimulating / stinging sensation that their shampoo bars have pH in excess of pH 8.5.

For reference, I tried at least 3-4 different shampoo bars over several weeks.

Though some people love them....

I really wanted to love them and they were the best shampoo bars I tried, but I still had issues with them, so they didn't work for me.

free skin care · Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:18 pm

oasisjc wrote:

I thought these soaps are not supposed to strip the acid mantle?

I don't see that in your quote? All I see is a diatribe against sulphates. Being natural does not equate to being gentle, there are many corrosive and poisonous chemicals in nature. What pH are these bars? Traditional soap is alkaline and the products you liked to are based on traditional soap. Alkaline topicals destroy the acid mantle and cause the cuticles on hair to lift. Additional oils and butters can help moisturise the skin and condition the hair, but you could say the same about a hydrating regular shampoo - they still damage the skin barrier first. Confused

free skin care · Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:26 am

Firefox7275 wrote:

oasisjc wrote:

I thought these soaps are not supposed to strip the acid mantle?

I don't see that in your quote? All I see is a diatribe against sulphates. Being natural does not equate to being gentle, there are many corrosive and poisonous chemicals in nature. What pH are these bars? Traditional soap is alkaline and the products you liked to are based on traditional soap. Alkaline topicals destroy the acid mantle and cause the cuticles on hair to lift. Additional oils and butters can help moisturise the skin and condition the hair, but you could say the same about a hydrating regular shampoo - they still damage the skin barrier first. Confused

I do know that natural doesn't mean that its gentle or even healthy for our bodies, but I do know that sulfates are, and have confirmed this for myself as I switched to Aubrey Organics for a while and my hair was becoming a lot healthier. However, I find that it's not enough and want to move to a more emollient shampoo, such as Chagrin Valley. And while regular hydrating shampoos can sometimes contain the same ingredients, they are usually in the middle , if not, the end of the ingredients list, so it's mostly just other chemicals that I'm putting onto my hair and scalp, which is what I'm trying to avoid. Additionally, I'm not too concerned about pH as long as it's not excessively alkaline because the pH on everyone's hair and skin is different.

I mostly just made this topic to get some more opinions about the products, rather than the science as I do know a lot about it already.

free skin care · Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:31 am

I would try their sample bars, Oasisjc. They are very reasonably priced, and you can see how your hair responds to the bars. I, again, like these bars. I do not use them all the time, but when my eczema is flaring, the Chagrinvalley shampoo bars really help!

free skin care · Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:21 am

oasisjc wrote:

I do know that natural doesn't mean that its gentle or even healthy for our bodies, but I do know that sulfates are, and have confirmed this for myself as I switched to Aubrey Organics for a while and my hair was becoming a lot healthier. However, I find that it's not enough and want to move to a more emollient shampoo, such as Chagrin Valley. And while regular hydrating shampoos can sometimes contain the same ingredients, they are usually in the middle , if not, the end of the ingredients list, so it's mostly just other chemicals that I'm putting onto my hair and scalp, which is what I'm trying to avoid. Additionally, I'm not too concerned about pH as long as it's not excessively alkaline because the pH on everyone's hair and skin is different.

I mostly just made this topic to get some more opinions about the products, rather than the science as I do know a lot about it already.

I am 100% behind you with avoiding sulphates, but not all commercial hair cleansers or shampoos contain sulphates. Based on the science, CO-washing is the gentlest method.

The pH of healthy skin and hair has little variance. Are you saying you only want opinions from people who have used these products? If so why did you post the theory in your OP? Question

free skin care · Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:43 pm

Firefox7275 wrote:

oasisjc wrote:

I do know that natural doesn't mean that its gentle or even healthy for our bodies, but I do know that sulfates are, and have confirmed this for myself as I switched to Aubrey Organics for a while and my hair was becoming a lot healthier. However, I find that it's not enough and want to move to a more emollient shampoo, such as Chagrin Valley. And while regular hydrating shampoos can sometimes contain the same ingredients, they are usually in the middle , if not, the end of the ingredients list, so it's mostly just other chemicals that I'm putting onto my hair and scalp, which is what I'm trying to avoid. Additionally, I'm not too concerned about pH as long as it's not excessively alkaline because the pH on everyone's hair and skin is different.

I mostly just made this topic to get some more opinions about the products, rather than the science as I do know a lot about it already.

I am 100% behind you with avoiding sulphates, but not all commercial hair cleansers or shampoos contain sulphates. Based on the science, CO-washing is the gentlest method.

The pH of healthy skin and hair has little variance. Are you saying you only want opinions from people who have used these products? If so why did you post the theory in your OP? Question

They do get rid of the sulfates, but they replace it with an equally harsh ingredient. The whole marketing scheme behind a good shampoo is that it cleanses well and does whatever else it claims to do. The fact that it cleanses as well, or even better, than a sulfate-containing shampoo is mostly due to the fact that they replaced it with an equally strong detergent. And I don't understand why CO-only washing would be "scientifically" the best method. To me, it seems pretty similar to these shampoo bars. They contain emollients and are not necessarily pH balanced as pH can change over time. The benefit I see with the shampoo bars over CO washing is that they provide even more emollience.

And I beg to differ about the healthy pH having little variance. A pH difference of 1 has a 10 fold difference, so even a 0.1 variance in pH is pretty significant. And even so, just because someone is "healthy" it does not translate to the same thing for every individual. For example, you can have a heart that pumps 60bpm, which can be just as healthy as someone who 80bpm. It's not necessarily the lower the better because there are a lot of other factors to consider, like age, diet, lifestyle, etc.

Lastly, yes I was hoping for more anecdotal experiences from the members who already use these bars since I already know a good amount of the science behind these and other shampoo products. I posted what I posted as an intro to those who weren't familiar with the concept.

Rileygirl: thanks for your suggestion! I have already ordered the sample bars and I'll report back once I've gotten a good trial run of them.

free skin care · Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:03 pm

oasisjc wrote:

They do get rid of the sulfates, but they replace it with an equally harsh ingredient. The whole marketing scheme behind a good shampoo is that it cleanses well and does whatever else it claims to do. The fact that it cleanses as well, or even better, than a sulfate-containing shampoo is mostly due to the fact that they replaced it with an equally strong detergent. And I don't understand why CO-only washing would be "scientifically" the best method. To me, it seems pretty similar to these shampoo bars. They contain emollients and are not necessarily pH balanced as pH can change over time. The benefit I see with the shampoo bars over CO washing is that they provide even more emollience.

And I beg to differ about the healthy pH having little variance. A pH difference of 1 has a 10 fold difference, so even a 0.1 variance in pH is pretty significant. And even so, just because someone is "healthy" it does not translate to the same thing for every individual. For example, you can have a heart that pumps 60bpm, which can be just as healthy as someone who 80bpm. It's not necessarily the lower the better because there are a lot of other factors to consider, like age, diet, lifestyle, etc.

Lastly, yes I was hoping for more anecdotal experiences from the members who already use these bars since I already know a good amount of the science behind these and other shampoo products. I posted what I posted as an intro to those who weren't familiar with the concept.

Thanks for the chemistry and human biology lesson but I spent a few years working in teaching and research laboratories, and presently work in lifestyle healthcare (physical activity!). I hold degree level qualifications related to both. Wink

Which intro? I see a diatribe against sulphates and your erroneous interpretation of how shampoo bars cleanse.

I specified commercial hair cleansers OR shampoos, examples of the former being WEN and DevaCurl No-poo. You are mistaken in thinking non-ionic surfactants are as harsh as sulphates. You might find this reference to published research interesting: note that they used just 1% SLS in an emollient base on healthy skin http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20649794
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21443526
Nor are they as strong detergents, many struggle to remove silicone-heavy styling products.

I am sure you do not want me giving you a chemistry lesson either, so I will be brief. As far as CO-washing and commercial cleansing conditioners are concerned 'active' ingredient is a cationic surfactant AKA the primary emulsifier; the emollients are simply a bonus. Hint: the difference between that and an alkaline soap is in the effect on the hair cuticle and the lipid 'glue' in the stratus corneum. HTH.

free skin care · Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:25 pm

Sorry, what does the abbreviation CO stand for? Thanks.

free skin care · Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:28 pm

cm5597 wrote:

Sorry, what does the abbreviation CO stand for? Thanks.

CO = Conditioner only hair washing.

free skin care · Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:29 pm

Ah, thanks, Rileygirl.

free skin care · Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:50 pm

Firefox7275 wrote:

oasisjc wrote:

They do get rid of the sulfates, but they replace it with an equally harsh ingredient. The whole marketing scheme behind a good shampoo is that it cleanses well and does whatever else it claims to do. The fact that it cleanses as well, or even better, than a sulfate-containing shampoo is mostly due to the fact that they replaced it with an equally strong detergent. And I don't understand why CO-only washing would be "scientifically" the best method. To me, it seems pretty similar to these shampoo bars. They contain emollients and are not necessarily pH balanced as pH can change over time. The benefit I see with the shampoo bars over CO washing is that they provide even more emollience.

And I beg to differ about the healthy pH having little variance. A pH difference of 1 has a 10 fold difference, so even a 0.1 variance in pH is pretty significant. And even so, just because someone is "healthy" it does not translate to the same thing for every individual. For example, you can have a heart that pumps 60bpm, which can be just as healthy as someone who 80bpm. It's not necessarily the lower the better because there are a lot of other factors to consider, like age, diet, lifestyle, etc.

Lastly, yes I was hoping for more anecdotal experiences from the members who already use these bars since I already know a good amount of the science behind these and other shampoo products. I posted what I posted as an intro to those who weren't familiar with the concept.

Thanks for the chemistry and human biology lesson but I spent a few years working in teaching and research laboratories, and presently work in lifestyle healthcare (physical activity!). I hold degree level qualifications related to both. Wink

Which intro? I see a diatribe against sulphates and your erroneous interpretation of how shampoo bars cleanse.

I specified commercial hair cleansers OR shampoos, examples of the former being WEN and DevaCurl No-poo. You are mistaken in thinking non-ionic surfactants are as harsh as sulphates. You might find this reference to published research interesting: note that they used just 1% SLS in an emollient base on healthy skin http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20649794
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21443526
Nor are they as strong detergents, many struggle to remove silicone-heavy styling products.

I am sure you do not want me giving you a chemistry lesson either, so I will be brief. As far as CO-washing and commercial cleansing conditioners are concerned 'active' ingredient is a cationic surfactant AKA the primary emulsifier; the emollients are simply a bonus. Hint: the difference between that and an alkaline soap is in the effect on the hair cuticle and the lipid 'glue' in the stratus corneum. HTH.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to prove there. I already know that SLS is horrible on the skin, so I'm not sure why you linked me to a study that just re-iterated what I already said. And the intro in the quote was not something I wrote. It was found on the website, and I posted it as a brief intro into why shampoo bars would be more beneficial. It was not meant to explain everything from the creation of shampoos to what it is now. And I'm not sure what is so "erroneous" about shampoo bars and their mechanism of action. The bars are saponified, which turns them into a soap. Simple as that.

And if you remembered anything from your research, you would know not to make such vague conclusions based on research articles. Yes, we ALL know that sulfates are harmful to the skin, but that doesn't mean other detergents can't be harmful as well. There hasn't been any research that goes into how other surfactants can be harmful to the skin, so to make a conclusion that they aren't as harsh would be naive at this point. I simply said they are likely equally strong based on the chemistry behind these ingredients if they are purported to have the same detergency as SLS.

I'm not sure why you needed to state your credentials, as if you think that would re-enforce your statements. Anyone can be just as knowledgeable as someone with a degree given the vast database found on the internet, so just because you've had experience in these fields does not make your statements any more valid. I'm a pharmacist, so that would make me even more "qualified" to be talking about these things, but you don't see me throwing my credentials around Wink

. To me, it's just knowledge and anyone else could have said what I said if they found the information from reliable sources.

As I said, research is always changing. SLS was once thought to be an extraordinary ingredient, hence why it was so successful in the market. But it has gradually declined in favour due to new and arising research, which could likely happen to any other chemical you are suggesting to be "great." That's exactly the reason why I wanted anecdotal reviews rather than a chemistry lesson, because that would be much more helpful than reading stuff I already know.

As well, alkaline soap or not, pH changes with every product. By the time you finish a bottle of conditioner/shampoo, the pH will be different from when it was originally purchased, so I don't really see the difference there. So does the pH on an individual's skin. This is also another reason why I prefer reviews from individuals who have tried these products, rather than hearing black and white facts that doesn't even hold true on an individual basis.

free skin care · Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:44 pm

My "credentials" might suggest to you that it is not necessary to explain the logarithmic pH scale nor the relationship between heart rate and cardiovascular health. It was in separate paragraph to the remainder of my comments.

Once again, the quote does not explain why shampoo bars are more beneficial, it is a bog-standard marketing ploy to intimate that without making any claims or direct comparisons. You said "Has anyone ever heard of washing your hair with just shea butter, coconut oil, and various other emollients in the form of a bar?" You did not use the word soap or saponify or anything remotely similar; given your credentials I assume it was a typo and not actually erroneous.

The chemistry of anionic surfactants, non-ionic surfactants and cationic surfactants is different. You claim you "simply said they are likely equally strong based on the chemistry behind these ingredients if they are purported to have the same detergency as SLS". You actually said "... they replace [sulphates] with an equally harsh ingredient ... The fact that it cleanses as well, or even better, than a sulfate-containing shampoo is mostly due to the fact that they replaced it with an equally strong detergent."
Are these statements based on published research? I gave you a starting point, evidence showing just how harsh/ strong/ potent sulphates are, even at ~1/20 of the strength of a commercial shampoo. I would genuinely be interested in similar research on non-ionic and cationic surfactants.

Hope that clarifies my position.

ETA: The above is not meant to be quite as impolite as it may sound. Whilst I am more than capable of being a sarky cow, sometimes I am just being direct ... Embarassed

Let's agree to differ?

free skin care · Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:57 pm

Firefox7275 wrote:

My "credentials" might suggest to you that it is not necessary to explain the logarithmic pH scale nor the relationship between heart rate and cardiovascular health. It was in separate paragraph to the remainder of my comments.

Once again, the quote does not explain why shampoo bars are more beneficial, it is a bog-standard marketing ploy to intimate that without making any claims or direct comparisons. You said "Has anyone ever heard of washing your hair with just shea butter, coconut oil, and various other emollients in the form of a bar?" You did not use the word soap or saponify or anything remotely similar; given your credentials I assume it was a typo and not actually erroneous.

The chemistry of anionic surfactants, non-ionic surfactants and cationic surfactants is different. You claim you "simply said they are likely equally strong based on the chemistry behind these ingredients if they are purported to have the same detergency as SLS". You actually said "... they replace [sulphates] with an equally harsh ingredient ... The fact that it cleanses as well, or even better, than a sulfate-containing shampoo is mostly due to the fact that they replaced it with an equally strong detergent."
Are these statements based on published research? I gave you a starting point, evidence showing just how harsh/ strong/ potent sulphates are, even at ~1/20 of the strength of a commercial shampoo. I would genuinely be interested in similar research on non-ionic and cationic surfactants.

Hope that clarifies my position.

ETA: The above is not meant to be quite as impolite as it may sound. Whilst I am more than capable of being a sarky cow, sometimes I am just being direct ... Embarassed

Let's agree to differ?

I don't know how many times I have to explain this same point, but my original post was not meant to explain everything about shampoo and shampoo bars. It was just an intro - whether or not the reader delves into it more is not my concern. I didn't say soap because I would think it's implied in the name shampoo - but again, this would be for those who were already familiar with the aspect of shampoo bars, which was the audience I was addressing.

In the case of my typo, I really meant to say equally strong in the first statement. Regardless, what I said was based on the implications that most surfactants work by the same mechanism. Their chemistry may differ slightly, but the principle is the same. I'm pretty sure that I mentioned that they were only implications, and if I didn't, I'm saying it now. They are not based on published research, nor are your statements claiming that other surfactants would be any less harsh on the skin considering the LACK of research available.

And I still don't understand your purpose of the "starting point." I already know how strong sulfates are.

Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:43 pm

The Chagrin Valley shampoo bars are alkaline, and will change the pH of your hair. It is therefore important to finish off with an acidic rinse to flatten the hair cuticle. Some people use citric acid, lemon juice, and some a tea rinse. I use an ACV rinse.

My hair has never been in a better condition.......

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