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Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:34 pm  |
Keliu,
I know it is the water soluble Vitamin C that degrades very quickly.
What we are desperately trying to figure out is how on earth to incorporate both types of C in a serum/cream as it appears they work best in conjunction. So many studies so many opinions it is getting mind boggling! I appreciate any and all input, wasn't trying to sound like a know it all. Right now it feels like I don't know much at all, major information overload!! I used to just mix the oil soluable with oil, then started reading this thread and the product penatration thread and I am wondering if this can be created as an effective DIY or not.
DM  |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:31 pm |
It's all too confusing isn't it? I think the recipe from Bulkactives looks promising but probably some people won't like the silicones.
I always apply my Vitamin C serum first - does anyone think that if you apply a silicone to the skin first, other serums that are applied on top won't penetrate properly? |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:46 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
It's all too confusing isn't it? I think the recipe from Bulkactives looks promising but probably some people won't like the silicones.
I always apply my Vitamin C serum first - does anyone think that if you apply a silicone to the skin first, other serums that are applied on top won't penetrate properly? |
this is quite the conundrum isn't it. I really am so darn confused at this point I just haven't got a clue what is good or not. Some say if the molecules in the silicone are small enough this is the perfect delivery system and some are disputing that. I looked it up and read about four studies and they are highly technical. The jist of what didn't fly over my poor head was that if the C was micronized to a small enough size and the silicone had small enough molecules it will penetrate into the skin. Then comes the question of PH?
So in essence I am not certain what will work, but intend to find out if possible.
HTH Well at least somewhat!
Rona
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:55 pm |
I forgot to add that we are also trying to figure out if it has to be applied to wet skin in order to activate the water soluble C, or if there is water in the formula what is preventing degradation of this form of C as it is not at all stable!
How is that for a run on sentence. LOL
Rona |
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Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:49 am |
I just want to add that the whole bit about the silicones keeping active ingredients from being able to penetrate the skin, is my unscientific opinion, but I do base it on my own independent research (as discussed in previous posts here on the thread).
For me, I would not do it, but you may want to go with it or research it on your own.
BF |
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jands
New Member
 
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 5
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Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:08 am |
Hi all,
This is John from BulkActives, I came across this thread and thought it would be useful to sign up and add some info.
A quick disclaimer:
1. Please note that I am not here to sell things, promote my business, deal with customer issues (slow shipping), or anything else not related to this particular thread.
2. Also note that I am not a scientist or cosmetics formulator, so anything I write is based on experience and reading the relevant studies and patents.
Ok, about the anhydrous C:
1. The idea about putting L-ascorbic acid in silicone is to keep it in a stable base.
The l-ascorbic acid is NOT dissolved, it is suspended.
Like the patent reads:
"Ten patients having facial photodamage were recruited for a double-blind pilot study of a newly formulated vitamin C ,complex having 10% ascorbic acid, a water soluble acid, and 7% tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate, a lipid soluble analog. Both of these are combined in an anhydrous polysilicone gel base, which acts as a “dermal patch,” releasing the water soluble acid slowly and the lipid soluble analog rapidly. The active vitamin C complex was applied to one side of the face and the inactive placebo base was applied to the opposite side of the face once a day." Fitzpatrick RE, Rostan EF. Double-blind, half-face study comparing topical vitamin C and vehicle for rejuvenation of photodamage."
The key points here are:
"acts as a “dermal patch,” releasing the water soluble acid slowly and the lipid soluble analog (ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate) rapidly."
The molecular size of the silicone is irrelevant. However, it is a good idea to use the ultra fine L-ascorbic, because it makes the product NOT grainy, it also allows the L-ascorbic to be much more evenly spread through the silicone base, and it is what the original inventor and patent holder uses.
2. Someone mentioned they were thinking about adding Ferulic acid to the silicone base.
This will not work. Ferulic acid is only soluble in alcohol (or PG). So, the product will separate. I have tried this many times over the last few years and no matter what I do it does not work.
One option would be to 'emulsify' the silicone base with the alcohol. However, I have been looking for the right type of emulsifier for this job for a long time and cannot find anything suitable. What is required is a product that will emulsify a large amount of silicone with alcohol, without needing any water.
Another problem is this. The idea of C+E+Ferulic is for limited sun damage protection (it is NOT a sun block). This is why we add the Vitamin E to the L-ascorbic.
The Ferulic acid is then supposed to increase the protection, and also help stabilize the L-ascorbic.
Now, when you use silicone the L-ascorbic is already stable, so you don't need the Ferulic for that.
However, the main problem is the way the l-ascorbic acid works in the silicone (see item #1: it is suspended and gets slowly released).
I have found that if I wear this during the day then my skin can get VERY irritated, because even a small amount of sweat can get the stuff dissolving and released very fast, too fast.
This is why I only wear this product at night.
3.I follow Dr. Todorov's (smartskincare) advice and apply all my skin care product when my skin is moist (after a shower). The only exception is the anhydrous C. If I put this on a moist face then it again dissolves and releases too quick, and causes a lot of irritation.
I do not think that silicone is a suitable base for all skin care products. I would also never layer anything over the silicone. It does form a barrier, and would prevent other actives from being absorbed.
However, in my unprofessional opinion it IS the perfect way to deal with the instability of L-ascorbic, and for this reason I prefer anhydrous C over a water based product. |
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Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:23 am |
Thanks Jands,
It seems as though all our non-chemist brains have questioned how to make these things you are saying work, and how to make a magic potion with both water and oil soluble C in the same mix. The impression I have gotten from my Headache Reading of very tech oriented studies is outside of a very sophisticated Lab, this is not going to happen. I have to say I wonder if that last one can really be done at all as a DIY. I swear one study (god only knows which one erased my history last night) did indeed mention the molecular size of the silicone, but as I have said for every study stating one thing you can pretty much always find one contradicting it.
Thanks again
DM |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:38 am |
This is the recipe I made yesterday based on the bulkactives recipe:
Phase A
Monistat gel 77% 38.50gm (NOTE: gel is 1 oz. which is perfect size for this)
L-ascorbic acid 15% 7.50gm
Phase B
Ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate 7% 3.50gm
Vitamin E (capsule) 1% 0.50gm (NOTE: I use Olympian Labs Tocomin Vitamin E Complete, because it contains a mixture of all the various vitamin E's)
Mix L-ascorbic with silicone base, use a spatula to make sure all lumps are gone.
Combine Phase A and B, mix well.
I'm in air-conditioning during the day so I'm not concerned about irritation (but that's good to know). When I put the Vitamin C on this morning, it did sting. |
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jands
New Member
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 5
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Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:38 am |
You're welcome.
| Quote: |
| how to make a magic potion with both water and oil soluble C in the same mix. |
Please note that it IS possible to use the oil soluble Vitamin C in a water based product.
Simple use water, ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate ,Vit E, Ferulic acid (pre-dissolved in alcohol) and some emulsifier. You could also add the water soluble MAP (Magnesium ascorbyl phosphate)
BUT...you cannot add L-ascorbic acid to it (well you can, but that brings you back to the stability issue).
So, for example, you could make two products:
1. silcione, Vit E, ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate, L-ascorbic acid
2. MAP, ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate, Vit E, Ferulic acid, emulsifier.
The other alternative is one that has already mentioned.
Make a base of: Vit E, ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate, Ferulic acid, emulsifier AND add your L-ascorbic aid fresh before use (mix in your palm).
This is how 'philosophy - hope and a prayer' solved the unstable l-ascorbic acid problem  They simply get the customer to add their 'magic powder' to their 'favorite moisturizer', right before use.
A bit of math will help you work out exactly how much L-ascorbic acid to add to, for example, a spoonful of your pre-made base. |
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Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:44 am |
Welcome to the Forum John, I've been purchasing from you for quite some time so it's good to hear from you here.
Your post is most enlightening with some very useful information. I would not have thought it necessary to use the anhydrous C in the PM and your info about the Ferulic Acid is most appreciated. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:55 am |
| jands wrote: |
The other alternative is one that has already mentioned.
Make a base of: Vit E, ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate, Ferulic acid, emulsifier AND add your L-ascorbic aid fresh before use (mix in your palm).
This is how 'philosophy - hope and a prayer' solved the unstable l-ascorbic acid problem They simply get the customer to add their 'magic powder' to their 'favorite moisturizer', right before use.
A bit of math will help you work out exactly how much L-ascorbic acid to add to, for example, a spoonful of your pre-made base. |
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I've been touting this method of application on another thread - without much positive response! |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:56 am |
| jands wrote: |
Make a base of: Vit E, ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate, Ferulic acid, emulsifier AND add your L-ascorbic aid fresh before use (mix in your palm).
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Welcome, Jands. Thanks so much for all that information. Question, Can you add the L-Ascorbic acid to any base right before using it, such as a lactic acid product? |
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jands
New Member
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 5
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Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:00 am |
| Quote: |
| Can you add the L-Ascorbic acid to any base right before using it, such as a lactic acid product? |
If the base has a high enough water content then it should be possible.
However, be careful when adding it to bases that are already acidic (like lactic acid).
You must check the PH and make sure it is not going to burn your skin. |
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Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:05 am |
| jands wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Can you add the L-Ascorbic acid to any base right before using it, such as a lactic acid product? |
If the base has a high enough water content then it should be possible.
However, be careful when adding it to bases that are already acidic (like lactic acid).
You must check the PH and make sure it is not going to burn your skin. |
I understand. Thanks so much! |
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Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:53 am |
Thank you!
I did this with my regular moisturizer and water soluble Vitamin C after seeing Philosophy and Allotte using the method. I will try your method and formula, looks as though it is time to do some ordering.
BTW I checked out your site after finding it mentioned here, very impressed!
Thanks again for your time!
Sooo glad you joined 
DM
BTW who gives math lessons? Joking!! |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:03 am |
Keliu,
It is so nice to have your thoughts verified!!!!
Yesterday my head was really spinning from so much info and so technical. Just hard to read so much conflicting studies by so many "experts" I was either going to laugh or cry!
DM |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:24 pm |
Hi John,
Good to see you here, have always admired your website - good stuff!
I am going to throw out a wild guess as to why you might be experiencing the irritation with that Vitamin C serum - perhaps because it is sitting on the top of the skin and not penetrating? Just my theory.
There is usually some tingling/stinging/irritation with Vitamin C serums, but it is supposed to go away after a few minutes.
Also,the idea of adding Vitamin C powder at the last minute to the Vitamin E/ferulic base: how can one be assured that the Vitamin C has solubized? I have been under the impression that LAA must first be solubized in H20 or an H20/alcohol combination? I am not sure how it can be emulsified with the Vitamin E lipid "after the fact"?
Your thoughts? Thanks! BF |
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jands
New Member
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 5
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Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:35 pm |
Hi,
| Quote: |
I am going to throw out a wild guess as to why you might be experiencing the irritation with that Vitamin C serum - perhaps because it is sitting on the top of the skin and not penetrating? Just my theory. |
The patent describes the 'dermal patch' idea as being that the natural moisture of the skin slowly dissolves the LAA, it then absorb into the skin.
| Quote: |
| There is usually some tingling/stinging/irritation with Vitamin C serums, but it is supposed to go away after a few minutes. |
That is exactly what happens when I apply it.
I only experience irritation for a few hours after initial application on hot days when I am outside or when I sweat a lot (too much, too quick)
I do not have this problem after it has been sitting on the skin for a few hours, or in air conditioned environments.
Some of my Taiwanese friends do not have this problem, they are VERY much used to the heat and it takes a lot for them to sweat.
| Quote: |
| Also,the idea of adding Vitamin C powder at the last minute to the Vitamin E/ferulic base: how can one be assured that the Vitamin C has solubized? I have been under the impression that LAA must first be solubized in H20 or an H20/alcohol combination? I am not sure how it can be emulsified with the Vitamin E lipid "after the fact"? |
LAA is a very easy to dissolve powder, and it will dissolve in a emulsion (just like the skin's natural moisture can dissolve it slowly over a period of time). |
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Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:05 pm |
John,
I think this also depends on the individual person and how sensitive your skin is. I have never experienced any tingling much less burning with any skin care product even Vitamin C both types, home mixed or purchased. The only thing I have ever felt tingling from are some lip plumper's and I actually find it pleasant! My skin seems to tolerate just about anything. We are all different, even peels don't feel like anything to me I see results I just do not get the stinging or irritation some do.
JMHO
DM |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:38 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| What has been the problem with using Jojoba as a base? I am curious, I am aware Jojoba is not an oil it is a wax ester, it also penetrates the skin quite well. I for one would be willing to mix for each use if oxidation is an issue? |
Darkmoon brings up a very interesting point and I'd really appreciate it if someone can offer any insight to this question. Like BFgirl, I'm also very hesitant to use anything with silicones... It would seriously solve a LOT of our problems regarding this C stability dilemma. Anyone? Thanks in advance! |
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Asian. Near 30. Prone to broken caps, moles + freckles, large congested pores, hormonal cystic acne, flaky skin and fat puffy eyelids. Staples: Bioderma SS, Taz, Dr. Kassy's C, Skinoren, HQ, Cerave and growth factors-- but also trying EVERYTHING ELSE..... |
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Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:17 pm |
I never could come up with a solution to the stability issue, so I just make a 15% DIY solution with distilled water and apply it immediately.
BF |
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Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:29 pm |
Hello BF,
Excuse me if I am being thick about 2 hours sleep!
Do you just mix enough to do an as per application? If not how much do you make at a time?
TIA
FatSwan,
Funny how it seems that question as to Jojoba never gets answered?!?
DM |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:27 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| Funny how it seems that question as to Jojoba never gets answered?!? |
I would imagine that the "problem" with Jojoba would be that as it is oil like, LAA is not going to dissolve in it - it would be fine for an oil soluble C though. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:28 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| Funny how it seems that question as to Jojoba never gets answered?!? |
I would imagine that the "problem" with Jojoba would be that as it is oil like, LAA is not going to dissolve in it - it would be fine for an oil soluble C though. |
That was the thought, I don't intend to confuse I have used 2 forms water soluble with water based cream and oil soluble with oils. Just mixed with what I was applying at the time. IE: per use. I hope I am making sense about 2 hours sleep last night, brain is malfunctioning. LOL
Thanks!
Rona |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:04 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| Funny how it seems that question as to Jojoba never gets answered?!? |
I would imagine that the "problem" with Jojoba would be that as it is oil like, LAA is not going to dissolve in it - it would be fine for an oil soluble C though. |
Well I was thinking, the whole idea of mixing LAA with a silicone base is so that the LAA are "suspended" and "time released" into the skin when it interacts and dissolves in the water in our own skin, right?
Likewise, LAA is equally "un-dissolve-able" in oil/wax. Wouldn't the logic follow that LAA can also suspend in Jojoba and get time released into the skin?
Does this make sense? |
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Asian. Near 30. Prone to broken caps, moles + freckles, large congested pores, hormonal cystic acne, flaky skin and fat puffy eyelids. Staples: Bioderma SS, Taz, Dr. Kassy's C, Skinoren, HQ, Cerave and growth factors-- but also trying EVERYTHING ELSE..... |
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