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Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:33 am  |
salli I have been leaning towards thinking that at least when it comes to water based C serum that the DIY ones are at least as good and possibly even better than the commercial ones. I do agree with Darren that most DIYers lack the scientific background to make a really effective C product (although I would probably use the word many instead of most). However, I imagine that there are some DIYers that DO have the scientific background and if you want to make an effective C serum then you need to find these DIYers and learn from them.
That being said I will follow your quest for information on how to make an effective C serum with interest. Just a few comments:
1. I totally agree that pH is a big factor in making an effective C serum and think that you need to get pH strips if you are going to DIY.
2. On the issue of stabilizing the ascorbic acid I think that if you are going to use the C serum for a short period of time (personally I would say go for a week and not a month but this is just what I would do) and then discard it and make more then stabilizing the C is not as big a concern for you as it would be for a manufacturer. But of course it would help to find out how you could stabilize your C serum.
3. I am guessing that the fact that l-ascorbic acid is pretty acidic would most likely mean that using an appropriate percentage of C (10-20%) should make a c serum with an apropriate pH level but I look forward to hearing what you discover on this.
4. Absolutly agree on the distilled water since it is the only way to be sure that the water won't contain metals/minerals.
I am not so sure what you mean by the pH or l-ascorbic acid is 1.6% to 2.0%. Is this the pH for the ascorbic acid crystals themselves? I don't want to have this thread be a repeat of the one where we are discussing the pH of silicone based c serums but I don't think that you can mesure the pH of crystaline vitamin C. The pH that matters is the pH of the final product. In other words what will the pH be when you add water and the other ingredients.
Please keep us updated with your findings. I don't necessarily plan on making a DIY C serums myself (I am one happy camper with my SkinMedica C serum!) but should I decide to ever switch to a water based C serum I would like to know. Besides I would really like to settle in my mind once and for all the debate about whether a DIY serum can be as good (or possibly even better than) a commercial C serum.  |
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Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:45 am |
| RMB, Pudoodles: I am not sure about the amino acid that is supposed to convert the dehydroascorbic acid to l-ascorbic acid but in the article that I provided the link for Dr. Pinnell actually claims that an enzyme does the conversion-aptly named dehydroascrobic acid reductase! I have no clue what the amino acid that does this is called, hopefully Darren will let us know. Pudoodles you could very well be right about it being Tyrosine althought I have never seen Cellex-C claim that this is the reason they include the tyrosine. |
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Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:27 pm |
| Theresa, I spoke with the formulator at TPF this morning. He told me that the ph of l-ascorbic acid was what it was 1.6-2.0%. Apparently what causes the fluctuation in ph is the water you use in the serum and other additives. He strongly recommended BV-OSC since it was more stable and had the ability to penetrate the dermis layer of skin. BV-OSC has the properties of vit C. He also highly recommended HA. He also strongly cautioned to use a preservative (very very careful to the amount) in everything so that it wouldn't grow "things". Just wanted to pass all of this on for those who are interested. I personally try to make up a new "batch" every week to 10 days. |
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Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:37 pm |
I still don't see the pH thing but I guess what is really important is the final pH of the product and yes this will certainly depend on what else is in the serum.
I looked up BV-OSC and it is Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate which is an oil soluable form of vitamin C so the requirements to make a C serum with this would be different that those for an ascorbic acid one. I think that the science behind Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate is good but I am still not convinced that it is as proven as ascorbic acid. But then again the C serum I use contains 5% of this so I guess that says something about how confident I am that it is a worthwhile form of C to use!
The topic of preservatives in C serums just came up in another post. Did he recommend any particular preservatives? |
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Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:00 pm |
| least expensive is dmdm hydriontin (SP?) or most expensive is germabin II. He said to be very very careful with the preservatives since overdoing could harm your skin!! If I told you the rest of the vit C conversation we had I would be stoned. |
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Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:02 pm |
Hi salli - Don't worry! You won't be stoned if you can enlighten us. A lot of claims are made these days about Vit.C and a lot of us have put stock in those claims. It just happens that C is evidently a trickier active than some others, and more challenging for formulators. Some of us are interested in the science behind it, so if you ever have anything to add, please feel free to do so. Many forum members are keen to hear opinions about preservatives too.
I think one reason I'm particularly interested in discussions like this is that there are several different skin-types represented on the forum, and it's obvious from other topics that certain other products' characteristics can effect people differently. Or maybe just as significantly -- not at all. Vit.C sera seem to be an obvious example of this. |
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Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:43 pm |
Forgive me if I'm short because I'm trying to summarize a 30 minute conversation. My source told me that if I just HAD to have a vit C serum to make it with BV-OSC. BV-OSC actually has the ability to penetrate the dermis - I need to research this further. According to this source there was very little to back up vit C serum made with l-ascorbic acid.
I quoted the ph thing from the Skinceuticals website. This is the product that I used for years because "I was told" it worked better than any of the others. Now, I have been using the DIY C serum for a few weeks on a fairly regular basis and I can see a little results - but - I've also started taking better care of my skin than I have the last few years.
On to preservatives, my source's big thing was to be very careful with the amount. If you don't use preservatives you need to make up your formulas frequently - they get bacteria, etc. in them and grow things you do not want on your skin. So preservatives aren't necessarily a bad thing if used carefully. He didn't necessarily recommend one over the other. |
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Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:31 pm |
Pudoodles - Thanks so much for suggesting the mystery amino acid may be tyrosine. I'll hunt for it one of these days.
Theresa - Wow, the part you bolded makes some strong assertions. I wonder why increased dehydroascorbic acid doesn't mean increased ascorbic acid? I've read this recycling of C is a very routine process. |
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Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:23 am |
| RMB wrote: |
Theresa - Wow, the part you bolded makes some strong assertions. I wonder why increased dehydroascorbic acid doesn't mean increased ascorbic acid? I've read this recycling of C is a very routine process. |
I really don't know but I think that what I said a few posts back might explain some of it. Yes there are amino acids and enzymes that can recycle the dehydroascorbic acid and perhaps it is a routine process but it is possible that too much dehydroascorbic acid would "overload" the system. I haven't read the entire article by Dr. Pinnell in detail but I do get the impression that the system of antioxidants in our skin is designed to work properly but can be overloaded. Maybe if you put a C serum that has 20% (I am just using this amount as an example-I have no clue here) of the C in dehydroascorbic acid form on the skin it can handle that much and convert it but if you put on with 50% of the C as dehydroascorbic acid on the skin then it is too much for the system to handle.
And then there was the part about the dehydroascorbic acid not converting to ascorbic acid because it might just decay as the lactone ring irreversibly opens.
So these are just my guesses..... |
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Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:50 pm |
| Catski - I am bumping this thread as I wondered what you mixed your tetra. ascorbyl with and how it is working for you? I am looking for a DIY recipe using this. Thanks for any help! |
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Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:15 am |
| What is this product and how can it help my skin. |
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eddie
New Member
 
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 8
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Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:13 am |
| you wanted a vit c that penetrates the skin the Obagi Nu-Derm system has the only product that can penetrates the skin they have a 5%-10%15%20% cream.ckeck out there website or you can buy it on ebay. |
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Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:55 am |
| Eddie, I was told years ago that the Skinceutical C serum was the ONLY one that did this. I have since spoken with several people chemists and formulators who assured me that this was impossible and that it was just hype. |
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Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:08 pm |
This is an awesome topic. I have been using skinceuticals for years now and am reluctant to try DIY serums because well, like Darren says, the problem with DIY is that most don't have a lab and sophisticated testing like a big company like skinceuticals.
i am also concerned because unlike other users who can see an improvement in their skin when using c serums, i really can't because of my age and my skin condition is relatively good so i wouldn't be able to spot any positives really. |
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about to hit my 40s, retin-a user, differin, LRP |
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