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Sun May 04, 2014 10:25 am  |
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CM5597 But his credentials are NOT good enough to have made the profound Nobel-prizing winning discoveries he claims. He has only an *undergraduate* degree in chemistry. In this day and age, with an undergraduate degree in chemistry, that would be enough not to be scientist in the full-blown sense but enough to be a research technician who works in the lab of a scientist. So this is not enough to support the grandiose claims.
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Well okay CM - I will counter with this. My friend who is an audiologist only has a masters in her field, yet she has 30 years experience. At the time she graduated, a PhD was not the requirement, yet it is today. Will these new graduates with a PhD under their belt and no experience in the field be superior to her in their knowledge or application? I think you can guess the answer to that. So while in one sentence you are saying that credentials aren't that important, out the other side of your mouth comes a comment that it's extremely important, rendering Jim to a mere technician who could work under a scientist in the lab. In my mind, there's something very wrong with how you are expressing yourself or how you really feel. Fwiw, some of Jim's colleagues have double PhD's despite the fact that you have chosen to minimize their credibility stating that they are lowly "fringe" scientists. I find the way you have presented your case very demeaning and insulting to Jim Kaszyk and don't feel your comments are warranted. As previously stated on the old thread, new discoveries are made all the time that defy old theories. Many of those discoveries are made by individuals of various credentials. That's just the way it is. And as far as TM or your comments about what I feel other members should believe. Far be it from me to say anyone should purchase any particular product. But I will remind everyone that if they choose to, and they don't feel the product is or them, there is always the money-back guarantee. ~ Aprile |
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Sun May 04, 2014 5:29 pm |
I don't understand why Jim needs people to flock to his defense. I am pretty sure he can answer the questions that people are asking without assistance, right?
It seems like we have more time being spent on back and forth with members who don't know how it really works, as opposed to hearing from Jim himself. I am sure Jim is a nice guy and members like his product. But isn't that really all they need to contribute? (FYI that I don't mean this to be a personal reflection on anyone individually, but I think sometimes actions can be seen as going overboard, and distract from the real discussion) |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon May 05, 2014 4:38 am |
Aprile - first you say this:
| aprile wrote: |
| Can we check and compare to see who has the biggest diploma on the wall? That's the real crux of the matter here. |
then you say this:
| aprile wrote: |
| Will these new graduates with a PhD under their belt and no experience in the field be superior to her in their knowledge or application? I think you can guess the answer to that. |
Thereby indicating that the "biggest diploma on the wall" isn't the "real crux of the matter" at all!!
Anyway, all of the above is really irrelevant to this discussion. What is relevant to Kasz's claims of a great scientific discovery is proof. But even if it is proven that water can be energised, where is the proof that it actually has a biological anti-aging effect on the skin and body. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon May 05, 2014 4:54 am |
| kasz wrote: |
Materials and Methods
Treated Arrowhead Spring water is spring water obtained from a commercial source and treated remotely using a proprietary method. We shall, for convenience, label this commercial effect as a “subtle energy” effect. Kaszyk created a process using proprietary catalytic towers that work energetically to interact with matter when it is coupled with the subtle energy field. The result is that Kaszyk unknowingly concentrated a new form of subtle energy that can be infused into liquids remotely.
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Kasz - could you explain how the ingredients are added to the water. As I've pointed out previously, you initially stated that the ingredients were used as a catalyst to energise the water. Which is why only a tiny residue of the ingredients is left in the final product - because they were used up during the energising process. However, now you are stating that the water is energised remotely whilst in unopened bottles. Which to my logic means that the ingredients must be added later. As you can see, I am still very confused regarding this point. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon May 05, 2014 7:37 am |
Aprile, the money back guarantee isn't a sure thing, or at least my experience with it. I know that a few others did not get their money back as well. The hassle of requesting it and having the customer service person try and convince you that you are wrong, didn't use it properly, etc. overall wasn't worth it. That stays with you as the overall experience with this company.
I know there are die-hard fans for this product and that they are defensive with those that have had less than stellar results. That's okay.
It didn't work for me nor did I get my money back, that is how I determine a product/company's viability. |
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Joined the 50 club several years back, blonde w/ fair/sensitive skin, Texas humidity and prone to rosacea, light breakouts and sunburns, combo skin type, starting to see sundamage and fine lines |
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Mon May 05, 2014 10:07 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
Aprile - first you say this:
| aprile wrote: |
| Can we check and compare to see who has the biggest diploma on the wall? That's the real crux of the matter here. |
then you say this:
| aprile wrote: |
| Will these new graduates with a PhD under their belt and no experience in the field be superior to her in their knowledge or application? I think you can guess the answer to that. |
Thereby indicating that the "biggest diploma on the wall" isn't the "real crux of the matter" at all!!
Anyway, all of the above is really irrelevant to this discussion. What is relevant to Kasz's claims of a great scientific discovery is proof. But even if it is proven that water can be energised, where is the proof that it actually has a biological anti-aging effect on the skin and body. |
I don't really want to rehash this whole mess. But, let's just suffice it to say that the comment I made was comparing Jim's credentials and expertise to CM's. Again, we have no way to validate CM's expertise and I think that's pretty fair to say since CM has not revealed his/her real self. Correct? In that same vain, CM could have 5 years experience in the field, while Jim has over 30. That is the point I was trying to make... which also follows suit with the audiologist comment. Sometimes experience in the field of expertise is worth far more than the diploma on the wall. |
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Mon May 05, 2014 4:03 pm |
| aprile wrote: |
I don't really want to rehash this whole mess. But, let's just suffice it to say that the comment I made was comparing Jim's credentials and expertise to CM's. Again, we have no way to validate CM's expertise and I think that's pretty fair to say since CM has not revealed his/her real self. Correct? In that same vain, CM could have 5 years experience in the field, while Jim has over 30. That is the point I was trying to make... which also follows suit with the audiologist comment. Sometimes experience in the field of expertise is worth far more than the diploma on the wall. |
If this is your line of reasoning then you need to make known your own credentials and expertise in order to continue your defense of the science.
Could you please just let Kasz answer the questions which are put to him without denigrating the people who are asking them. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue May 06, 2014 1:27 am |
Yet again though you draw attention away from the original point which is Jim has made several statements proven to be false and incorrect scientifically. You keep questioning CM’s comments, but to me the simple fact is that CM is not selling a product to the general public making claims that are invalid pure and simple.
Whilst I can agree that sometimes a diploma doesn’t equate to experience, and nor should it be, it doesn’t mean that someone should be allowed to make claims which are false and create a misperception of the products especially when it comes to skincare products.
| aprile wrote: |
| I don't really want to rehash this whole mess. But, let's just suffice it to say that the comment I made was comparing Jim's credentials and expertise to CM's. Again, we have no way to validate CM's expertise and I think that's pretty fair to say since CM has not revealed his/her real self. Correct? In that same vain, CM could have 5 years experience in the field, while Jim has over 30. That is the point I was trying to make... which also follows suit with the audiologist comment. Sometimes experience in the field of expertise is worth far more than the diploma on the wall. |
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Thu May 08, 2014 5:21 pm |
| Aprile wrote: |
| Well okay CM - I will counter with this. My friend who is an audiologist only has a masters in her field, yet she has 30 years experience. At the time she graduated, a PhD was not the requirement, yet it is today. Will these new graduates with a PhD under their belt and no experience in the field be superior to her in their knowledge or application? I think you can guess the answer to that. So while in one sentence you are saying that credentials aren't that important, out the other side of your mouth comes a comment that it's extremely important, rendering Jim to a mere technician who could work under a scientist in the lab. In my mind, there's something very wrong with how you are expressing yourself or how you really feel. Fwiw, some of Jim's colleagues have double PhD's despite the fact that you have chosen to minimize their credibility stating that they are lowly "fringe" scientists. I find the way you have presented your case very demeaning and insulting to Jim Kaszyk and don't feel your comments are warranted. As previously stated on the old thread, new discoveries are made all the time that defy old theories. Many of those discoveries are made by individuals of various credentials. That's just the way it is. And as far as TM or your comments about what I feel other members should believe. Far be it from me to say anyone should purchase any particular product. But I will remind everyone that if they choose to, and they don't feel the product is or them, there is always the money-back guarantee. ~ Aprile |
Aprile:
A couple points:
* This is the field of chemistry, not audiology. They gave PhD's in chemistry back then. I also see that Jim has no papers published on PubMed.
* I think you missed my point about credentials. I said that while I don't think credentials are everything, Jim does *not* have the credentials to be producing Nobel Prize-winning science on dark energy or stem cells. This is *not* a contradiction in terms. This is equivalent to saying that I think credentials are important, but they are not everything. Yes, there are people with less than stellar credentials that are doing important mainstream and non-mainstream research. BUT these people are doing research on the topics that they make claims about. And Jim has *never* done any legitimate research on dark energy or stem cells, so credentials and past background are definitely a concern here. Does this better explain things?
And why is it okay for Jim to make claims about general relativity (slowing down time by traveling close to the speed of light), dark energy, and stem cells...ALL THINGS THAT JIM HAS NO PROOF ON....and yet, you attack me for questioning Jim's credentials and refuting this when I know more far more than the two of you combined on the first 2 topics!
You really need to calm down and stop attacking me just because I am questioning key parts of Jim's scientific claims. It's just not okay. |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Thu May 08, 2014 5:34 pm |
| cm5597 wrote: |
And why is it okay for Jim to make claims about general relativity (slowing down time by traveling close to the speed of light), dark energy, and stem cells...ALL THINGS THAT JIM HAS NO PROOF ON....and yet, you attack me for questioning and refuting this when I know more far more than the two of you combined on the first 2 topics!
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Yes, it's important to note that Jim has no credentials or experience in Astrophysics, the field into which Dark Energy falls. In addition, there has been no link proven to the benefit of Dark Energy on skin health and cell rejuvenation. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu May 08, 2014 7:30 pm |
| CM - Please stop being defensive; I am not "attacking" you. I am merely stating the truth. You are claiming Jim doesn't have the appropriate credentials to make such a discovery. Since you are the one disputing Jim's ability to make such a discovery, then its only fair to mention that we can't really verify your credentials other than what you tell us. Facts are facts. We are all mere screeen names here, EXCEPT that is for Jim Kaszyk. Btw, as I'm sure you know Bill Gates only had an undergrad degree, yet he created the Microsoft empire. Was he qualified or credentialed enough to do that? I think you get my point. ~ Aprile |
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Thu May 08, 2014 8:42 pm |
| aprile wrote: |
| Btw, as I'm sure you know Bill Gates only had an undergrad degree, yet he created the Microsoft empire. Was he qualified or credentialed enough to do that? I think you get my point. ~ Aprile |
Then stop asking for the credentials of the people who are asking the questions!! |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu May 08, 2014 8:52 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| aprile wrote: |
| Btw, as I'm sure you know Bill Gates only had an undergrad degree, yet he created the Microsoft empire. Was he qualified or credentialed enough to do that? I think you get my point. ~ Aprile |
Then stop asking for the credentials of the people who are asking the questions!! |
I think it's important to get this discussion back on track - this discussion is about the science behind ASG. I would still like to know how the ingredients are added to ASG if the water is energised remotely. And I would also like to know what Kasz believes the energy is in other energised water products and if he believes his energy is different and why. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri May 09, 2014 3:18 am |
I think CM has every right to be defensive because by all intense purposes you are attacking her - and its obvious. She has knowledge that she has shared, and her questions are legitimate and soundful in my mind.
I do not see her making any such statements similar to what Jim is making about making new discoveries etc. Of course when someone makes such statements people are going to be interested no matter who or what they are.
You say "Facts are facts" yet when quotes that are said as being factually based are pointed out to be factually incorrect you go up in arms against anyone who suggests that. I can understand you liking ASG and it giving you good results - but when it comes to facts being facts, you have to acknowledge that Jim isn't being completely truthful with the facts that he has said (re new discoveries, dark energies etc).
I have never seen Bill Gates make statements that were similar to that which is being said about ASG. I suspect if he had, then Microsoft wouldn't be what it is today period.
| aprile wrote: |
| CM - Please stop being defensive; I am not "attacking" you. I am merely stating the truth. You are claiming Jim doesn't have the appropriate credentials to make such a discovery. Since you are the one disputing Jim's ability to make such a discovery, then its only fair to mention that we can't really verify your credentials other than what you tell us. Facts are facts. We are all mere screeen names here, EXCEPT that is for Jim Kaszyk. Btw, as I'm sure you know Bill Gates only had an undergrad degree, yet he created the Microsoft empire. Was he qualified or credentialed enough to do that? I think you get my point. ~ Aprile |
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Fri May 09, 2014 3:20 am |
Also I think its also important to point out that the questions that caused this were actually about the science behind ASG and statements made about it!
| Keliu wrote: |
| aprile wrote: |
| Btw, as I'm sure you know Bill Gates only had an undergrad degree, yet he created the Microsoft empire. Was he qualified or credentialed enough to do that? I think you get my point. ~ Aprile |
Then stop asking for the credentials of the people who are asking the questions!! |
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Fri May 09, 2014 3:32 am |
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| Also I think its also important to point out that the questions that caused this were actually about the science behind ASG and statements made about it! |
Correct! Whilst Bill Gates may have revolutionised our technological world, as far as I'm aware, he has never claimed to have rewritten our Universal Laws. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri May 09, 2014 1:08 pm |
| What about the credentialed scientists who do believe Jim has revolutionized or created a product that contains subtle energy? This is what the thread is about, yet all you people do is discredit those who published the findings castomg them off as "fringe scientists". Something is sadly wrong with this picture. Whether I like Ageless Secret or not. Which makes me realize despite what Jim Kaszyk says, you will continue to discredit the reports and findings, unless it gets published in Pubmed. |
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Fri May 09, 2014 6:35 pm |
Hi Everyone,
Thank for all your posts and your great interest in my discovery.
Here is a link I found for you. http://www.scribd.com/doc/26691431/Dr-William-Tiller-Has-Spent-Over-a-Decade-on-a-Theory-That-Others-Are-Now-Calling-the-Tiller
It has information that completely describes what excited me more than 20 years ago and took me from a very skeptical person about Subtle Energy to one that began a series of experiments to seek the truth.
The first diagram and second diagrams were something I was familiar with. The third diagram blew my mind and it sent me on a quest that changed my life. When you look at diagram #3 you will see it is a graph showing the + space/time continuum and its mirror image the – space/time continuum. This showed me there could be a whole spectrum of energies that were vibrating at speeds in excess of the speed of light and if we could learn how to capture them we could do amazing things. The challenge was they come from another dimension.
One might say that a product such as The Ageless Secret GOLD infused with Subtle Energy, could produce results that have never been seen before because the ingredients in the formula would act like ingredients that have never been seen before. Results that are out of this world! Happy Discovery, Enjoy! |
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"Great ideas have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" - Albert Einstein |
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Fri May 09, 2014 7:49 pm |
Dr. Tiller also has the honour of making it into the Encyclopaedia of American Loons:
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http://americanloons.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/388-william-tiller.html
Diagnosis: Ultracrackpot and completely delusional woo-sponge, to the level where ordinary people might start to suspect fraud. But Tiller seems merely to lack any connection to reality whatsoever. People do listen to him, but it seems that those who do are pretty much lost to reality already, so it is debatable how much harm he actually does. |
More reading on Dr. Tiller:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/03/16/alternative-science-alternative-medicine/ |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri May 09, 2014 8:16 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
Dr. Tiller also has the honour of making it into the Encyclopaedia of American Loons:
| Quote: |
http://americanloons.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/388-william-tiller.html
Diagnosis: Ultracrackpot and completely delusional woo-sponge, to the level where ordinary people might start to suspect fraud. But Tiller seems merely to lack any connection to reality whatsoever. People do listen to him, but it seems that those who do are pretty much lost to reality already, so it is debatable how much harm he actually does. |
More reading on Dr. Tiller:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/03/16/alternative-science-alternative-medicine/ |
Whilst there is much skepticism in the scientific community on Dr. Tiller's work - at least he's not using his research to sell a product and make unsubstantiated claims about it. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat May 10, 2014 6:57 am |
| Aprile wrote: |
| Which makes me realize despite what Jim Kaszyk says, you will continue to discredit the reports and findings, unless it gets published in Pubmed. |
Actually, I will continue to discredit the findings as long as they are *clearly* scientifically wrong... where *clearly wrong* is the key concept.
Like I said, Jim has said statements that are clearly scientifically wrong--like he said that soluble particles can't scatter light--and you can look that up online to find out that it's true. And that is not controversial. The fact is that Jim doesn't know what he is talking about.
And the problem is that most people including yourself don't have the scientific background to evaluate Jim's claims, which is why I am trying to help out. |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Sun May 11, 2014 9:15 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
| aprile wrote: |
| Btw, as I'm sure you know Bill Gates only had an undergrad degree, yet he created the Microsoft empire. Was he qualified or credentialed enough to do that? I think you get my point. ~ Aprile |
Then stop asking for the credentials of the people who are asking the questions!! |
Correction - Bill Gates doesn't have an undergrad degree. He dropped out of Harvard after 2 years. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun May 11, 2014 9:17 am |
| cm5597 wrote: |
| Aprile wrote: |
| Which makes me realize despite what Jim Kaszyk says, you will continue to discredit the reports and findings, unless it gets published in Pubmed. |
Actually, I will continue to discredit the findings as long as they are *clearly* scientifically wrong... where *clearly wrong* is the key concept.
Like I said, Jim has said statements that are clearly scientifically wrong--like he said that soluble particles can't scatter light--and you can look that up online to find out that it's true. And that is not controversial. The fact is that Jim doesn't know what he is talking about.
And the problem is that most people including yourself don't have the scientific background to evaluate Jim's claims, which is why I am trying to help out. |
And we very much appreciate your assistance! |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun May 11, 2014 7:11 pm |
| Aprile wrote: |
| Which makes me realize despite what Jim Kaszyk says, you will continue to discredit the reports and findings, unless it gets published in Pubmed. |
If any scientist/manufacturer claims a scientific breakthrough yet maintains their methodology is a secret, it's surely natural for statements to be scrutinised for credibility (the point CM makes on soluble particles scattering light being a prime example) as an indicator of the credibility of undisclosed methods. |
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Fri May 23, 2014 4:18 pm |
Hi Everyone,
There seems to be some confusion about measuring turbidity and if dissolved materials can scatter light.
Regarding turbidity measurements, here is a link to a page from HACH labs the manufacturer of the device that was used in the report. http://www.hach.com/turbidityguide
Here is some information quoted from the link: (I added the underline)
“Very simply, the optical property expressed as turbidity is the interaction between light and
suspended particles in water. A directed beam of light remains relatively undisturbed when transmitted through absolutely pure water, but even the molecules in a pure fluid will scatter light to a certain degree. Therefore, no solution will have a zero turbidity.”
MY COMMENT- This why the data for the Arrowhead Spring Water shows a very low baseline turbidity measurement of about 0.05 NTU. The measurement for Ageless Secret Sun Lovers Mist, which is Subtle Energy Infused Arrowhead Water, measures 3 NTU. This is very large and is normally what one would see if some kind of particles were suspended in the water. |
_________________
"Great ideas have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" - Albert Einstein |
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