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Sat May 05, 2012 8:25 pm  |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Riley,
Does he suggest use of the RP on an ongoing basis and not associated with any sort of rolling? In other words, just rubbed on the skin with our fingers?
BFG |
Yes. Not positive but I think he still believes in the shorter needles to get the product penetration over the finger method, though. (Sorry, BFG, I just saw this tonight!) |
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Sun May 06, 2012 8:31 am |
Ethel,
I am beginning to think it looks like a cycle where leading up to a deep roll, one frequently applies RP. other vitamins and antioxidants and might want to use a short needled roller to ensure penetration.
Subsequent to a deep roll, (as in immediately after cleansing) one would apply this same oil based serum and then wait a few days before starting the cycle again. The reason for this is that the skin is quite sensitive for a few days following a deep roll.
One could use Environ's products for this (and pay the associated higher pricing and keep a tight watch on expiry dates) or make a homemade serum using these same ingredients which are commonly available.
You could also mix it up a bit on certain nights using Retin A or other favorite night time topicals.
riley, what say you? is this how you see his protocol as well?
I cannot seem to put my hands on it right now, but there are photos out there of a woman, seemingly in her late 50s or 60s who followed such a regimen for 5 years and the impact was astounding - thick (!), completely clear skin five years later... you could no longer see through to her veins even...the protocol almost seemed to double at the same time as a filler.
So in cases like this, you aren't merely stopping the clock, you are reversing it...
BFG |
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Sun May 06, 2012 8:44 am |
EthelM
http://www.abme.com.br/pdfs/Dermaroller/maxilofacial.pdf
Percutaneous Collagen Induction
Preparing the skin
To achieve youthful skin, one needs the skin to be functionally as young as possible. Most patients coming for rejuvenation have photoaging and this needs to be addressed before attempting any PCI. Photoaging not only is due to the actual ultraviolet damage of dermal tissues but also is the result of a
chronic deficiency of vitamin A. [5] The first step toward skin health is to topically replace photosensitive vitamin A [6] and the other antioxidants vitamins C and E and carotenoids, which are normally lost on exposure to light. Vitamin A is utterly
essential for the normal physiology of skin and yet it is destroyed by exposure to light so that it is prevented from exerting its important influence on skin and preserving collagen. Vitamin A is believed to control between 350 to 1000 genes that control normal function, proliferation, and differentiation of
cells. One cannot exaggerate the value of vitamin A in a rejuvenation program for skin, especially with PCI, because in this case, we are specifically trying to stimulate cells to induce collagen to their maximum. Vitamin A in physiologic doses will stimulate cell growth, the release of growth factors, angiogenesis [7], and the production of healthy new collagen. The DNA effects of vitamin A interact in parallel with the growth factors released by PCI. Adequate nourishment of the skin with vitamin A (not necessarily as retinoic acid but also as retinyl esters, retinal, or retinaldehyde) will ensure that the metabolic processes for collagen production will be maximized and the skin will heal as rapidly as possible [8]. Vitamin C is similarly important for collagen formation but is destroyed by exposure to blue light.
Both of these vitamins need to be replaced every day so that the natural protection and repair of DNA can be maintained. As a result, the skin will take on a more youthful appearance. The addition of palmitoyl pentapeptide or other similar peptides also will ensure that better collagen will be formed. The use of a special device for microneedling of the skin (Environ Cosmetic Roll-Cit, Vivida c.c., Cape Town, South Africa) will ensure that higher doses of the active ingredients get into the skin. These chemicals, however, cannot achieve really youthful skin because the collagen immediately below the epidermis has been destroyed by years of sun exposure and the production of collagen in this area needs to be stimulated by a more targeted technique. Technique of percutaneous collagen induction The skin is routinely prepared by using topical vitamin A and C and antioxidants for at least 3 weeks,
but preferably for 3 months if the skin is very sun damaged. If the stratum corneum is thickened and rough, a series of mild TCA peels (2.5%5% TCA in a special gel formulation) will get the surface of the
skin prepared for needling and maximize the result. Under topical, local, or general anesthesia, the skin is closely punctured with the special tool that consists of a rolling barrel with needles at regular intervals.
etc. etc.
...
After this serous leak has stopped, the skin is washed thoroughly and then covered with vitamin A, C, and E oil or cream (do not use ascorbic acid). The patient is warned that they will look terribly red and bruised,and they are encouraged to shower within a few hours of the procedure, when they return home. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Sun May 06, 2012 8:44 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
DM, is the master Googler, maybe she can find those photos 
If anyone can, she can....they are in an article where Des Fernandes shows the effects of his regimen on various issues - aging, acne, etc.
BFG |
Here is one SO FAR that shows lip line and eye wrinkle improvement. 
http://www.chezblanc.co.nz/Environ%20Files/skin_needling.htm |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sun May 06, 2012 8:56 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
riley, what say you? is this how you see his protocol as well? |
I know he recommends At Least 6 weeks of daily/nightly use of a retinoid and C before one does a deep dermaroll. That is the minimum length of time - longer is better in this case.
For the after roll protocol, Environ uses the EssentiA oil. ETA: They also use the DermaLac product.
http://www.dermaconcepts.com/clinical
(Some before and after photos on the above link.)
And more B/A photos: http://www.environ.co.za/results |
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Sun May 06, 2012 9:56 am |
| Quote: |
| Dr. DF feel it is as effective as retinyl palmitate for deep roll/CIT therapy prep? Or, is retinyl palmitate definitely the better choice? |
I think it is fair to suggest both, but not at the same time. Retinoic Acid cannot be reconverted into the precursor forms in the skin. That is the problem and where the irritation sets in. Each person is different with Retinol as well. Above you should be able to find the data on Vitamin A , the boring cousins, and the unsung heroes in anti aging. They are cheap, and the RP can be found at your health food store in capsules. Squeeze into your base cream, mix and you're good to go. Same with E. Preparing the skin is very important for PCI, and the preparation along will also show good effects.
Rolling is vicious, but it's effective. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Sun May 06, 2012 9:58 am |
| DragoN wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Dr. DF feel it is as effective as retinyl palmitate for deep roll/CIT therapy prep? Or, is retinyl palmitate definitely the better choice? |
I think it is fair to suggest both, but not at the same time. Retinoic Acid cannot be reconverted into the precursor forms in the skin. That is the problem and where the irritation sets in. Each person is different with Retinol as well. Above you should be able to find the data on Vitamin A , the boring cousins, and the unsung heroes in anti aging. They are cheap, and the RP can be found at your health food store in capsules. Squeeze into your base cream, mix and you're good to go. Same with E. Preparing the skin is very important for PCI, and the preparation along will also show good effects.
Rolling is vicious, but it's effective. |
Totally agree with DragoN on this!  |
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Sun May 06, 2012 10:06 am |
That's the easy way.
The total gang buster method, little more complicated and more effective.  Still cheap though. Spoil my whole sorry hide with it.
No pain no gain. And if it wasn't so effective, I wouldn't be bothering with it either. But..it is.
Topical serums with the right actives are helpful along, PCI is helpful alone, but together = Results.
Takes time, but worth it. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Sun May 06, 2012 11:33 am |
I have a couple tips I can pass along from trial and error:
If you use numbing creams, cling wrap for me was a waste of time. Instead, I used scissors to fashion occlusive wrap from unused, new Ziploc bag material...much more effective.
I purchased one of those airless cosmetic pump bottles and keep my serum in there...in a base of red palm oil, I squeeze the E & A capsule contents, along with an All Carotein capsule (redundant I am certain, but cheap)...along with several drops of THDA...shake it all well, put in the bottle, store in the fridge.
Of course, I only wear this at night, on nights that no one can see me. I dare say I resemble a pumpkin on those nights.
BFG |
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Sun May 06, 2012 1:27 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I have a couple tips I can pass along from trial and error:
If you use numbing creams, cling wrap for me was a waste of time. Instead, I used scissors to fashion occlusive wrap from unused, new Ziploc bag material...much more effective.
BFG |
Thanks for that tip BFG! |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Sun May 06, 2012 9:02 pm |
Foxe
| Quote: |
| It appears he thinks using any form of vitamin A is what is prudent. |
Based on this in his research:
| Quote: |
Vitamin A is utterly
essential for the normal physiology of skin and yet it is destroyed by exposure to light so that it is prevented from exerting its important influence on skin and preserving collagen. Vitamin A is believed to control between 350 to 1000 genes that control normal function, proliferation, and differentiation of
cells. One cannot exaggerate the value of vitamin A in a rejuvenation program for skin, especially with PCI, |
Which is also backed up by countless other studies on the use of the Retinoic acid precursors.
It is boring, but it is extremely useful. No sexy biotech company name attached to it, so no one promoting it. But the research on it is solid. No ReNEWUFace, or DermAFixall to make it exciting.
I also use CP's or GHK Cu post roll. Along with the rest of the mix. Effective. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Mon May 07, 2012 6:18 am |
GHK Cu?
I have found that the best products are the least sexy and this, after years of trying the sexy products...
Best deep hair conditioner: plain coconut oil
Best exfoliant for feet: Apple Cider Vinegar
My budget has room for lab-created miracles, but I have not yet come across any.
BFG |
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Mon May 07, 2012 7:18 am |
Cu GHK, Copper peptide. Endogenous.
My opinion, people using the CP's without a dermaroller or deeper peels aren't going to get much benefit from CP's. Give up in frustration.
Ultrasound gel:
Scooter gum 2% 50%
HA1% 13%
Retinol 1%
Vit E 1%
Lecithin powder 5%
Borage 10%
Coffeeberry 1%
H20 13.5%
Phenoxy 0.5%
CuGHK 3%
Glycerin 2%
Ginger EO
AnteAge knock off is a bit similar, different end texture but without the peptide.Several other actives of course. Next batch..with Matrixyl. Permutations are endless, but the backbone remains the same.
The Ultra sound gel I had was just a gross silicon mess of zero use other than slime factor. That is silky and packed with useful actives for my hide. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Mon May 07, 2012 10:53 am |
| Count me in! I'm SO on board with Dr. DF's methods. I'm doing this!! |
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Mon May 07, 2012 11:57 am |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| EthelM wrote: |
| Count me in! I'm SO on board with Dr. DF's methods. I'm doing this!! |
That makes two of us! I know most of our long time rollers follow his protocol!
When are you starting Ethel? I have to get back on my RA and C tonight and in the morning! |
I've been using tretinoin every other night for a few months now, so I'll increase that to nightly use for a while first. I haven't started a C product yet...not sure which C to use. So, I'll get some C and start on that for a few weeks, too, and then do a needling. It's solid science, with visible results, so while it's not as easy as smoothing on a pricey luxurious facecream, I'd rather grit my teeth, dermaroll and get good results. |
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Mon May 07, 2012 12:48 pm |
| EthelM wrote: |
| Does anyone know offhand what form of topical C is preferred by Dr, DF? MAP or tetra, or ascorbic? |
I have a few pdf files from Environ written by Dr. Fernandez if you like pm me with an email addy and I can send them, we can't send pdf files through the pm service. |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon May 07, 2012 12:50 pm |
Tetra, just answered that one a couple days ago here...the benefits of board searches are enormous...just ask DM.
BFG |
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Mon May 07, 2012 12:59 pm |
| EthelM wrote: |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| EthelM wrote: |
| Does anyone know offhand what form of topical C is preferred by Dr, DF? MAP or tetra, or ascorbic? |
I have a few pdf files from Environ written by Dr. Fernandez if you like pm me with an email addy and I can send them, we can't send pdf files through the pm service. |
Thanks! I'll PM you with my email address. |
I will send you all my pdf's as attachments! |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon May 07, 2012 2:26 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| EthelM wrote: |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| EthelM wrote: |
| Does anyone know offhand what form of topical C is preferred by Dr, DF? MAP or tetra, or ascorbic? |
I have a few pdf files from Environ written by Dr. Fernandez if you like pm me with an email addy and I can send them, we can't send pdf files through the pm service. |
Thanks! I'll PM you with my email address. |
I will send you all my pdf's as attachments! |
Hi DM, I just posted a longish note for you and interested others over in the AnteAGE product review thread.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=45400&start=375 SCROLL DOWN
I am making the case for AnteAGE as superior to A and C (alone, since AE contains both) by looking at DrF's own logic and all his pre- and post roll recommendations, as expressed in his most illustrative published paper. |
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Mon May 07, 2012 2:51 pm |
| EthelM wrote: |
| On the topic of tetra as the preferred topical C form, does anyone know exactly why Dr. DF prefers tetra? |
He feels it is more stable. I'll see if I can find what he wrote about that. |
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Mon May 07, 2012 5:09 pm |
| An interesting observation re Dermarolling - I've been rolling for some time now and believe that it has definitely thickened up my skin - my broken caps and veins are barely visible now. But what I want to mention is that for the past couple of months I've been using the Lyapko Roller morning and night. THIS IS NOT A DERMAROLLER - it does not pierce the skin. But it seems to have toughened up my skin - because now when I Dermaroll, it doesn't hurt as much and I find that even with my 1.5mm roller I don't need to use anaesthetic cream. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon May 07, 2012 5:38 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| I have been thinking of adding one after reading your and Luminosity's posts about the Lyapko Roller! If I do it would be my last purchase for a good while (and I mean it now), but it sounds like a good way to prep for the actual roller! |
I don't believe all the stuff about galvanic current being directed into the skin which is attributed to the Lyapko - but I do believe in massage. And this gives the skin a real workout. My current modus operandi is "abuse it or lose it!" And the Lyapko is a bit like "abuse" (but nowhere near as bad as the Dermaroller). But I do think it's all helping to toughen up and thicken my skin. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue May 08, 2012 3:32 am |
Add my voice to the chorus of echoes. My needling data and papers are all over the place. I have to organize them in one folder so I can be more clear on my own advice/instructions.
That said, IIRC, he believes tetra is more effective not due to stability (although it is stable) but more so because it is a better "workhorse" than the other forms of Vitamin C...i.e. better at supporting collagen synthesis, etc.
I am trying to get my hands on that Fernandes paper showing the woman with 5 years of rolling use....oh my god - 5 years later she looked 20 years younger - and she was way middle-aged to begin with. YOu could see the "thickness" in the photo.
BFG |
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Tue May 08, 2012 6:00 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
DrJ,
We expect Dr. Fernandes to continue to advocate for his Environ line for pre/post rolling (since he will fall back on his own research)...just as you will continue to advocate for your topicals (based on your own research)....so getting his thoughts on this would likely be futile (some of us here have been fortunate to communicate with him)...
but I would be curious to see if you can explain to us why you feel your topicals would be more effective?
Thanks, BFG |
Agree that Dr. Fernandes will continue to advocate A and C.
BFG, Dr J did explain his reasoning. This is what he said:
| DrJ wrote: |
OK, let's get back to the wisdom of Dr.F (who as far as we know hasn't yet been educated about stem cytokines). I will refer to his 2008 paper in Clinics in Dermatology; I cannot link to the complete published paper because it is copyright restricted. I cane cite key excerpts (in quotes).
First, he emphases preparing the skin prior to rolling "Photoaged skin needs to be turned into healthier, functionally younger skin before PCI". Hmmm. Sounds like a job for AnteAGE to me (DrF says say to prep for 3 wks. to 3 mos.). Now, Dr.F recommends VitA and C, but lets look at why he does. He states: "...to facilitate rapid healing of the skin". and "to encourage the release of TGFbeta-3". Now while we are believers in VitA and C (they are in the AnteAGE Accelerator) we can state unequivocally that healing in general, and cytokine directed healing in particular (TGFbeta3>>TGFbeta1&2) is an order of magnitude better with AnteAGE. TGFB-3 IS A CYTOKINE. We directly stimulate, control & measure the cytokines as they are manufactured by the cells famous for making healing cytokines.
Post rolling Dr.F recommends using Vit A or VitC "or oils" "...to promote better healing". He adds: "the addition of palmitoyl pentapeptide could possibly ensure even better results". In my mind this means 1. he is looking to decrease acute phase inflammation using oils as emollients, and 2. he seek to promote healing response with peptides (synthetic cytokines). I cannot help thinking that DrF would be very excited to learn about stem cytokines. I need to write him a letter.
So, for these reasons, I think that AnteAGE is the best choice 1. to prep the skin for rolling, and 2. as a post procedure synergistic strategy to assure that healing is promoted in the right direction (non-scarring, youthful type).
My recommendation: AnteAGE serum + Accelerator 8-12 weeks before, AnteAGE serum applied more frequently & liberally in the immediate post roll period, then continue AnteAGE serum + accelerator as before. Of course, I am biased, don't bother to mention. But, I have tried to lay out my logic for you clearly in light of DrF's theories. I think they dovetail very nicely. |
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