Oxidized Ascorbic Acid
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free skin care · Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:09 pm

Yubs wrote:

So I guess that's a good question for RCevrin...how can the consumer dilute the product and still get a reliable Vitamin C concentration with every application?

Yubs wrote:

Update: I tried the RCeverin 50/50 DHAA/LAA product mixed every-which way this weekend: on damp face, mixed with water, and mixed with moisturizer. The only way it is not too thick and sticky is if it is mixed with water to the point where the vitamin C is of questionable usefulness because of the dilution of the glycerin.

I'm going to keep trying since I have most of a bottle to go, but don't hold out much hope. Unless RCeverin can up the concentration of their vitamin C so that customers can dilute it down to the appropriate level of actives as well as an acceptable level of glycerin feel on the skin, I can't buy it again. Shame, because I wanted to like this product because of the DHAA.

Dear Yubs,

First, I want to say thank you for trying our product. I appreciate your observations about your personal experience with it, even though you don't seem completely pleased. I do hope you'll continue to use it, and that what I'm about to say might help you to do so.

You've asked an interesting question: How can I dilute it and still get a reliable Vit C concentration? This raises an issue that I'm almost afraid to bring up here, because once again I'm going to point out something that is contrary to many people's thinking.

If you apply 3 drops directly from the bottle without any water or lotion to "dilute" it, then you've applied a certain total amount of vitamin C to a certain area of skin. If you mix 3 drops with 10 drops of water, and apply it to the same area of skin, then you have applied the same total amount of vitamin C. What happens to the water? It either absorbs into your skin, or evaporates. Within a very short time, the amount of vitamin C per unit area of skin is the same. If the water helps the glycerin absorb and leave a texture that you prefer, then that's a good thing.

So you can see that, within limits, it doesn't make any difference if you apply it with or without water. Obviously, you couldn't apply 3 drops of product with a cup of water to the skin of your face and neck! If that is the kind of ratio that you find necessary to achieve a desirable texture, then clearly our product is not for you. We honor our 30-day return policy 100%, and we will gladly refund your money upon return of the unused portion. You have given our product a fair try; if you can't use it, then you have a legitimate reason to return it, and there are no hard feelings! I can only say that we incur a huge expense if a customer returns our product; we obviously cannot resell a returned bottle, so we couldn't offer such a guaranty if it happened very often.

In regard to the bit about concepts that are contrary to people's thinking: I expect that I'm going to hear from folks who are going to say how "everyone knows that a serum must be at least 5% (or 10%, or some other number) to be effective." There is nothing magic about a certain cutoff concentration in regard to absorption. A serum must simply contain enough vitamin C so that when you apply a reasonable amount, you get enough vitamin C per unit area of skin. If you apply 1 drop of a 15% serum, or 15 drops of a 1% serum to the same skin area, you have applied the same amount of vitamin C. I will be happy to discuss this concept further with reference to the famous study previously discussed in this thread, but this particular post is already way too long!

free skin care · Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:24 pm

I'm really glad you've said this, as I've been wondering about whether its the concentration or the overall amount of vit C.
I suppose the concentration would only come into play if it's necessary to have a certain pH...but given ascorbic acid is a weak acid the pH doesn't actually change all that much with a more dilute product.
Of course I suppose that's a moot point given that your product is anhydrous..... Hmmmmm....

Pondering ... Smile

free skin care · Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:42 pm

fawnie wrote:

Ive been mixing 2 gtts of the ReCvrin 50/50 serum in the palm of my hand with another AA2G/ethyl ascorbic acid serum that is oil free and a bit "too" dry feeling. So the resulting "Quadruple C" serum is just-about-right-feeling. Too soon to tell if this is the Perfect Mix but it def feels better this way. As DragoN sez, "Always a workaround!"

I like this idea fawnie - I might give it a go tonight since I have some AA powder lying around.

ReCverin wrote:

Yubs wrote:

So I guess that's a good question for RCevrin...how can the consumer dilute the product and still get a reliable Vitamin C concentration with every application?

If you apply 3 drops directly from the bottle without any water or lotion to "dilute" it, then you've applied a certain total amount of vitamin C to a certain area of skin. If you mix 3 drops with 10 drops of water, and apply it to the same area of skin, then you have applied the same total amount of vitamin C. What happens to the water? It either absorbs into your skin, or evaporates. Within a very short time, the amount of vitamin C per unit area of skin is the same. If the water helps the glycerin absorb and leave a texture that you prefer, then that's a good thing.
//
In regard to the bit about concepts that are contrary to people's thinking: I expect that I'm going to hear from folks who are going to say how "everyone knows that a serum must be at least 5% (or 10%, or some other number) to be effective." There is nothing magic about a certain cutoff concentration in regard to absorption. A serum must simply contain enough vitamin C so that when you apply a reasonable amount, you get enough vitamin C per unit area of skin. If you apply 1 drop of a 15% serum, or 15 drops of a 1% serum to the same skin area, you have applied the same amount of vitamin C. I will be happy to discuss this concept further with reference to the famous study previously discussed in this thread, but this particular post is already way too long!

I have a problem with the theory you present about the dilution ratio as I find that when my face is damp with water, that I can spread the serum farther (ie-down my neck). In doing so, I AM diluting the serum by making it go farther than intended.

free skin care · Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:49 pm

foxe wrote:

I have a problem with the theory you present about the dilution ratio as I find that when my face is damp with water, that I can spread the serum farther (ie-down my neck). In doing so, I AM diluting the serum by making it go farther than intended.

I understand and agree. It can be spread farther when applied with water, and if you do spread it farther, then there is less vitamin C per unit area of skin.

free skin care · Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:12 pm

ReCverin wrote:

Yubs wrote:

So I guess that's a good question for RCevrin...how can the consumer dilute the product and still get a reliable Vitamin C concentration with every application?

Yubs wrote:

Update: I tried the RCeverin 50/50 DHAA/LAA product mixed every-which way this weekend: on damp face, mixed with water, and mixed with moisturizer. The only way it is not too thick and sticky is if it is mixed with water to the point where the vitamin C is of questionable usefulness because of the dilution of the glycerin.

I'm going to keep trying since I have most of a bottle to go, but don't hold out much hope. Unless RCeverin can up the concentration of their vitamin C so that customers can dilute it down to the appropriate level of actives as well as an acceptable level of glycerin feel on the skin, I can't buy it again. Shame, because I wanted to like this product because of the DHAA.

Dear Yubs,

First, I want to say thank you for trying our product. I appreciate your observations about your personal experience with it, even though you don't seem completely pleased. I do hope you'll continue to use it, and that what I'm about to say might help you to do so.

You've asked an interesting question: How can I dilute it and still get a reliable Vit C concentration? This raises an issue that I'm almost afraid to bring up here, because once again I'm going to point out something that is contrary to many people's thinking.

If you apply 3 drops directly from the bottle without any water or lotion to "dilute" it, then you've applied a certain total amount of vitamin C to a certain area of skin. If you mix 3 drops with 10 drops of water, and apply it to the same area of skin, then you have applied the same total amount of vitamin C. What happens to the water? It either absorbs into your skin, or evaporates. Within a very short time, the amount of vitamin C per unit area of skin is the same. If the water helps the glycerin absorb and leave a texture that you prefer, then that's a good thing.

So you can see that, within limits, it doesn't make any difference if you apply it with or without water. Obviously, you couldn't apply 3 drops of product with a cup of water to the skin of your face and neck! If that is the kind of ratio that you find necessary to achieve a desirable texture, then clearly our product is not for you. We honor our 30-day return policy 100%, and we will gladly refund your money upon return of the unused portion. You have given our product a fair try; if you can't use it, then you have a legitimate reason to return it, and there are no hard feelings! I can only say that we incur a huge expense if a customer returns our product; we obviously cannot resell a returned bottle, so we couldn't offer such a guaranty if it happened very often.

In regard to the bit about concepts that are contrary to people's thinking: I expect that I'm going to hear from folks who are going to say how "everyone knows that a serum must be at least 5% (or 10%, or some other number) to be effective." There is nothing magic about a certain cutoff concentration in regard to absorption. A serum must simply contain enough vitamin C so that when you apply a reasonable amount, you get enough vitamin C per unit area of skin. If you apply 1 drop of a 15% serum, or 15 drops of a 1% serum to the same skin area, you have applied the same amount of vitamin C. I will be happy to discuss this concept further with reference to the famous study previously discussed in this thread, but this particular post is already way too long!

Thanks, ReCverin (I can never spell your handle correctly without looking! Laughing

). But I already know that about dosage: 3 drops is three drops, no matter how it's diluted, and as long as you keep the solution in one place your three drops will affect only that area.

My point is that for me, this product *must* be diluted to where I can't keep (for example) three drops just on my face. For it to reach a consistency/feel that I'm happy with, I must dilute the three drops to the point where it will cover at least my whole FND (maybe more), thereby losing the beneficial concentration of actives.

Diluting it appropriately produces too much solution, but putting the entire dose on one area causes the sticky problem, regardless of whether I apply it to dry face or damp/wet.

Thanks for the kind offer of a return. The label peeled off, though. Will you still accept that?

And I really do wish you'd consider upping the concentration of actives, and offering a home dilution ratio to reach at least the minimum concentration of effectiveness. You could possibly reach a wider audience that way. Right now with as heavy as this is, I think many people won't be able to use it for the long term, and if you have to dilute it to the point I do, the concentration of actives isn't worth the money @ $30/oz.

bacchus...if ReCvrin wont't take it back, I'll definitely use it all. If nothing else I will add a drop or two to the Mad Hippie I bought until it's used up. But I really did want to like this, as glycerin always worked well for my dry skin, and never caused me any zits. I may try doing my own LAA in glycerin (so far only tried it with water), but my experience with DIY LAA has always left me with oxidized vitamin C stains in my clothes. Neutral

There's something I'm not doing right to dissolve it (maybe not enough time to dissolve or powder not micronized well enough, whatever), and I'm a bit busy to do a bunch of experimenting at the moment, so haven't yet fooled with glycerin.

free skin care · Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:54 pm

bacchus wrote:

I'm really glad you've said this, as I've been wondering about whether its the concentration or the overall amount of vit C.
I suppose the concentration would only come into play if it's necessary to have a certain pH...but given ascorbic acid is a weak acid the pH doesn't actually change all that much with a more dilute product.
Of course I suppose that's a moot point given that your product is anhydrous..... Hmmmmm....

Pondering ... Smile

This is why I alluded to the famous Pinnell study in my prior post. Now you are getting into the difference between testing the absorption of a solution using a Hill Top Chamber versus testing it spread on the skin like people really do!

If you imagine a puddle of solution held in place on a small spot of skin, you can realize that the water, salts, etc. that are continuously being secreted by the skin will not have much effect on the pH or concentration of the puddle, because of the large volume of solution versus the small area of skin. Since the puddle in a Hill Top Chamber is sealed, the effects of air and evaporation are also prevented. It is possible to maintain the pH at say, 3.0, and the concentration at say, 10% for 24 hours easily, since very little of the vitamin C in the puddle actually gets absorbed into the skin. It is a useful tool for comparing the absorption of puddles that have different concentrations and pH. But now you begin to ask, what happens when I spread a few drops over a much larger area of skin? How long does the concentration and pH on the surface of the skin remain at the level of the drop that was applied? Does it get more concentrated by evaporation of the water in the solution? Does it get more dilute by mixing with perspiration and sebum? Does the pH go up by reacting with skin salts and fluids? Does the pH go down by combining with carbon dioxide from the air? The answer to all of these questions is almost certainly "yes." Which factors prevail? What is the actual concentration in the thin film of fluid on the surface of the skin after 10 minutes? What is the pH?

I don't know. But I can speculate, for one thing, that it seems almost certain that the pH will gradually approach the normal pH of skin. How fast I can't say. But since the study does show that AA will not absorb so well at the normal pH of skin than at more acidic pH, it seems likely that AA spread around on the skin is not going to be absorbed as well as it is using a Hill Top Chamber.

Many things are still untested and unknown. I can proudly say, however, that the study I have conducted was done on human beings rather than pigs, and that the solutions were spread on the skin in amounts and in a manner that is consistent with the actual normal use of a vitamin C serum. That study demonstrates that DHAA is absorbed much better than AA. I believe this is very important, because it is quite clear that AA doesn't absorb very well.

(The pH isn't a moot point...our product is anhydrous in the bottle, but not once it's put on your skin, whether you add water or not).

free skin care · Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:31 am

RCeverin kindly offered to refund my product even though the label was missing. Thanks for the great customer service, RCeverin!

free skin care · Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:54 am

summer2004 wrote:

The research studies on the benefits of DHAA maybe valid, your product is not well received by the mass because it is not cosmetically elegant, though!

Elegance, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Some people consider what is pure, natural, simple and effective to be elegant. Our customers and sales are ever-increasing. More than half of those sales are repeat customers. So I'm not sure you speak for the masses. But I appreciate you sharing your opinions, including your assessment that, "The research studies on the benefits of DHAA maybe valid."

free skin care · Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:03 pm

Reporting in to say that I've been using the ReCverin serum for the 2nd round of my dermarolling, which I just did today. I also used it prepping for a roll I did 6 weeks ago. Both times, I've applied it immediately after the rolls. This is my observation:

I find the serum to be too sticky and shiney to be able to use it during the day or to apply makeup over it. I will use it before I exercise and then, a few hours later, wash it off. I have found this to work best for me. Night time applications haven't worked out for me since I use Retin A in the evenings.
I have applied it for 3 weeks before each roll and immediately after the roll, plus the following 2 days. It might be moisturizing enough to help with the dryness that follows a deep roll (1.5mm) because my skin handled the dryness fairly well. I also did notice 'some' stinging upon application after the roll, but that lasted only a few seconds.

I cannot say I like this serum on my rather oily skin and I believe it is the glycerin in it that I despise.
I also feel that the 2oz container is too large and a smaller one should be offered. With my bottle approaching the expiration date of 8 weeks, I have more than 3/4 of it left. And this is with using it daily for 6 - 7 weeks. (Refrigerated in-between).
I'm also disappointed in the packaging. The label also needs to be made to stay on better than it does as mine started to peel off completely when I opened the bottle. I did manage to salvage the label somewhat, though. A shrink-wrap label doesn't seem to be the best you could offer.

Some might like this better than me. With my oily skin, it just doesn't sink in at all and I end up with quite a shine. I do think it works as well as a water based vitamin C serum works. It's hard for me to notice any changes in my skin, but that might be because I have pretty good skin to begin with. (My esthetician has noted the lack of wrinkles on my skin).
I did , however,see some significant peeling of a wrinkle I targeted with a 2.0 single needle (and, subsequent filling it of it) on that last roll. I'd like to believe it was my prepping of my skin before needling 6 weeks ago that did that. Using good quality products like Retin A, BHAs, CPs and a vit C product like ReCverin would help. Another good note is that I've noticed the serum helping with a few dry spots I have, so it is a fairly good 'moisturizing' serum.

free skin care · Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:06 pm

I recommend Smart Skin Care vitamin C webpage for a competent, interesting, informative and independent discussion of vitamin C in skin care.

free skin care · Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:46 am

Kassy_A wrote:

I like my antioxidants to squelch free radicals, not generate more.

Under some conditions, the oxidation of l-ascorbic acid can generate a free radical called superoxide. This is known as the "pro-oxidant effect" of l-ascorbic acid.

Since DHAA is already in the oxidized state, this form of vitamin C does not have the potential to generate free radicals.

Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:54 pm

Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) is a water-soluble vitamin. It occurs as a white or slightly yellow crystal or powder with a slight acidic taste. It is an antiscorbutic product.

free skin care · Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:12 am

Reviving an older thread, and a little off-topic, those interested in vitamin C mega-dosing and do-it-yourself will be interested in a new video that is out on YouTube. It compares blood absorption of plain old ascorbic acid, liposomal vitamin C, and the oxidized form of vitamin C called dehydroascorbic acid (DHAA). You will see that DHAA gives much higher blood plasma levels when taken orally than any other form of vitamin C. The video discusses the well-documented science behind these results, and also teaches you how to make large amounts of DHAA for dietary use by a do-it-yourself method right at home in your kitchen. And it doesn't even require an ultrasonic cleaner.

People who are seeking a proven, scientifically sound way to increase vitamin C absorption will find this video very interesting.

http://youtu.be/YHKBhz7OCB4

free skin care · Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:36 pm

ReCverin wrote:

Reviving an older thread, and a little off-topic, those interested in vitamin C mega-dosing and do-it-yourself will be interested in a new video that is out on YouTube. It compares blood absorption of plain old ascorbic acid, liposomal vitamin C, and the oxidized form of vitamin C called dehydroascorbic acid (DHAA). You will see that DHAA gives much higher blood plasma levels when taken orally than any other form of vitamin C. The video discusses the well-documented science behind these results, and also teaches you how to make large amounts of DHAA for dietary use by a do-it-yourself method right at home in your kitchen. And it doesn't even require an ultrasonic cleaner.

People who are seeking a proven, scientifically sound way to increase vitamin C absorption will find this video very interesting.

http://youtu.be/YHKBhz7OCB4

Thank you for the link. I haven't watched it all but what I did see was quite fascinating. That's a lot of zucchini peelings! I'll have to wait until I have more time and see the whole video. Cheers, Bess

free skin care · Tue May 12, 2015 7:30 am

I'm pleased to announce that U.S. Patent 9018252 has just been issued, covering our stabilized dehydroascorbic acid formulas. Fulfilling the 3 basic requirements for patentability, those being new, useful, and non-obvious, this is the second U.S. patent that has been granted on our skin care solutions.

free skin care · Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:36 pm

Spring is just about here (at least in the northern hemisphere) and I'm sure a lot of people are eager to get out the skimpier clothes and feel some sun on their skin. It seems like a good time to remind folks that the antioxidant power of vitamin C to protect the skin is challenged more by solar radiation than by any other external factor; that 90% of skin aging (and skin cancer) can be attributed to the effects of solar radiation; that topically applied vitamin C provides photoprotection from UVA and UVB by a mechanism that is completely different and synergistic with sunscreens and sunblockers; that it's not just our faces that are subject to the damage this radiation can cause (as the thin, purple, frail skin on many elderly person's arms and legs can attest); and that the oxidized form of vitamin C called dehydroascorbic acid is absorbed 12 times better into the skin.

Have a great summer, but be sure to protect your skin!

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