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Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:23 am  |
Welcome to the board Katleen...I have been anxiously waiting for your arrival since Poco told me about your site.
Okay now let's get down to business 
I need a good sunscreen with a high SPF/PPD rating. I basically don't want the aging process to take place as much as possible. I would only use it on my face, neck and hands as you do also. What would you recommend. I am somewhat oily T-zone area of course. I need something light and something that sinks in nicely with a matte finish. Odorless preferably.
Also if you can clear up between chemical and physical sunscreen. So far I've tried to absorb all the info that was given to me on this board, but from time to time they get all jumbled up in my head 
Oh also what supplements are you taking if I may ask? |
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Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:13 am |
The version of Aromaleigh with the silicone coating is the Glissade. THe Voile doesn't have it.
I think we need a short, bulleted "primer" with some of these facts in it. I'm a bit confused myself now, because I didn't realize MMU would break down the avobenzene sunscreens.
Kathleen, you still need to try the Avene Gel-Creme 20/20. It is a totally different texture than the Avene emulsion you've tried in the past. Very good absorption and quite matte. Not greasy at all.
I'll be happy to post my "matteness" scale here...will do that later today. |
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Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:57 pm |
| good article, but i always thought a few minutes a day in the sun was enough to produce vitamin D the body needed. |
_________________
about to hit my 40s, retin-a user, differin, LRP |
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Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:56 pm |
| does the Bioderma ss have Mexoryl in it? The spf 50 |
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Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:56 pm |
There's some buzz in the media at present about how some unprotected time in the sun each day will provide enough vit. D. But I haven't heard anything consistent about this such as how much skin needs to be exposed in an unprotected state, how much vit. D this is supposed to generate, and for how long we are supposed to stay in the sun. The last thing I read on this was by the health guru from NewsTarget and he said that he spends 60 minutes a day in the sun each day.
I think this is another example where people have to do the best they can to educate themselves about the pros & cons of each position, and based on their personal priorities, make a personal decision. |
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Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:59 pm |
SkincareFreak,
The Bioderma has these ingredients (from the website I posted above):
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Ingredients NEW 2006 Formula
Water (Aqua), Dicaprylyl Carbonate, Octocrylene, Butyl Methoxydibenzoylmethane, Methylene Bis-Benzotriazolyl Tetramethylbutylphenol (Tinosorb M), Cyclomethicone, Tridecyl Salicylate, Glycolic Acid, Dodecyl Callate, Ginkgo Biloba Extract, Tocopheryl Acetate, Ectoin, Mannitol, Xylitol, Rhamnose, Fructo-Oligosaccharides, Laminaria Ochroleuca Extract, C-20-22 Alkyl Phosphate, Decyl Glucoside, C-20-22 Alcohols, Sodium Hydroxide, Xanthan Gum, Disodium EDTA, Propylene Glycol, Citric Acid, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Butylparaben, Ethylparaben
Sample: $5/00
Full-size: $25/00
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This is the Bioderma AKN spray but all the sunscreens have a posted ingredient list. Anyway, don't see it on there.... |
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Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:20 pm |
| lily wrote: |
OMG! This is confusing!
If I am using a European sunscreen and then use Aveda SPF 15 tinted moisturizer or the Juice Beauty SPF 30 tinited moisturizer (both of them have titanium dioxide in them as their sunscreens) is that breaking the sunscreen down and creating free radicals?
What about sunscreens that combine titanium dioxide and chemical sunscreens like LRP?
Or is it the iron oxides in the make- up???  |
Well, this will probably confuse you even more, but here goes:
Yes, your tinted moisturizers are quite likely to contribute to breakdown of your European sunscreens, which does produce free radicals in addition to lowering the protection of your sunscreen.
The reason that LRP can use ti02 in their sunscreen is because they specially coat it so it does not interfere with the avobenzone. It is highly unlikely the ti02 in your tinted moisutrizers are coated in that way. I had an article somewhere about the different kinds of coatings used on tio2 and how they affect avobenzone. Some are better than others and, as I have said before, the heavier your product is on silicones, the less likely it is to interfere with your Euro sunscreen.
Iron oxides can degrade avobenzone, but I would not worry too much about it or you will be driving yourself nuts.  The Euro sunscreens are pretty stable and your makeup is not going to degrade the majority of your sunscreen.
The most important things to avoid is the qunatity of tio2 or zi02 such as would be found in a formula claiming SPF, and octinoxate, which again, would be found in a formula claiming SPF. Many makeups "may" contain some tio2 as part of the formulation if you look at the ingredient list, but I prefer not to get THAT anal. Just look at the active ingredients.
Also, wearing an anti-oxidant UNDER your sunscreen, like a C Serum, is great to protect against any free radicals that may form.
HTH,
Kathleen |
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Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:57 pm |
| ariesxtreme wrote: |
Welcome to the board Katleen...I have been anxiously waiting for your arrival since Poco told me about your site.
Okay now let's get down to business
I need a good sunscreen with a high SPF/PPD rating. I basically don't want the aging process to take place as much as possible. I would only use it on my face, neck and hands as you do also. What would you recommend. I am somewhat oily T-zone area of course. I need something light and something that sinks in nicely with a matte finish. Odorless preferably.
Also if you can clear up between chemical and physical sunscreen. So far I've tried to absorb all the info that was given to me on this board, but from time to time they get all jumbled up in my head
Oh also what supplements are you taking if I may ask? |
I'm sorry I didn't see your post earlier! For your skin, I would definitely recommend the AKN Spray. It's fabulous in texture and won't break you out. I am prone to breakouts in the chin area, but this one works great and goes on like a light lotion. I don't find it greasy at all. It goes on semi-matte I'd say, but you can easily mattify it with some powder.
As for the difference between chemical and physical, I think it would be easier if I just refer you to my article that Poco posted. Essentially, the physical sunscreesn just aren't efficient enough. What that means is that you need such a huge percentage in the formula to get a high protection, that it's virtually impossible. For example, Shisheido SPF 55 has an estimated PPD of 8 and has 17% zi02. That's a lot and the PPD isn't even very good. The only physical sunscreen I've ever seen that was able to achieve a high PPD is SVR 50B, but you would have to apply 1/4 teaspoon to your face to get this much protection. And believe me, I love this stuff for my eyelids, but if you try to apply 1/4 tsp. to your face, you will look like you put a whole tube of foundation on!
If you have more questions, please feel free to ask.
Kathleen |
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Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:00 pm |
| PocoLoco wrote: |
There's some buzz in the media at present about how some unprotected time in the sun each day will provide enough vit. D. But I haven't heard anything consistent about this such as how much skin needs to be exposed in an unprotected state, how much vit. D this is supposed to generate, and for how long we are supposed to stay in the sun. The last thing I read on this was by the health guru from NewsTarget and he said that he spends 60 minutes a day in the sun each day.
I think this is another example where people have to do the best they can to educate themselves about the pros & cons of each position, and based on their personal priorities, make a personal decision. |
That's a good point, Poco. All the sunscreen gurus I know stress that you need to take supplemental Vitamin D. In fact, many health researchers are now saying you need a LOT more than the current RDA. You can actually get your levels of Vit. D tested. I take about 1,400 or 1,800 i.u. a day. |
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Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:01 pm |
| skincarefreak wrote: |
| does the Bioderma ss have Mexoryl in it? The spf 50 |
No, the La Roche Posay and Vichy sunscreens have Mexoryl and avobensone to provide UVA protection. Bioderma uses Tinosorb (a hybrid 1/2 chemical, 1/2 physical filter) and avobenzone to protect in the UVA range. |
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Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:02 pm |
| skincareaddicted wrote: |
| good article, but i always thought a few minutes a day in the sun was enough to produce vitamin D the body needed. |
Thank you about the article. I think that was old line of thinking about Vit D. There have been a lot of new studies coming out on how important vitamin D is. Some even think it's connected to protecting us from cancer. You can read a lot of good stuff about Vitamin D at lef.org and vitacost.com |
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Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:03 pm |
| PocoLoco wrote: |
The version of Aromaleigh with the silicone coating is the Glissade. THe Voile doesn't have it.
I think we need a short, bulleted "primer" with some of these facts in it. I'm a bit confused myself now, because I didn't realize MMU would break down the avobenzene sunscreens.
Kathleen, you still need to try the Avene Gel-Creme 20/20. It is a totally different texture than the Avene emulsion you've tried in the past. Very good absorption and quite matte. Not greasy at all.
I'll be happy to post my "matteness" scale here...will do that later today. |
I'd love to see your matteness scale.  |
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Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:08 pm |
| Molly wrote: |
Mostly, it's detail and not important, but this quote struck me
"Interestingly, the amount of UVA reaching the earth, unlike UVB, retains essentially the same energy level every day of the year, morning, noon, and afternoon. Deeply penetrating UVA radiation presents the same damaging effect to the skin in mid-December at 9 am as it does in mid-July at 4 pm"
People often say this, but actually if you look at a graph of UVA and UVB levels over a year they fluctuate in a similar way.
http://makeupalley.com/user/notepad/sunscreenFAQ/#UVAdayMolly |
Molly, I was very concerned about presenting misleading information. Today I had time to go over the research I've done. I had 2 sources for my statement. The one I could believe was in error, the 2nd, however, I highly, highly respect and the paper was presented to numerous scientists who corroborated it. So, unfortunately, I feel compelled to put the statement (albeit in a less harsh manner) back into my article.
I AM concerned about the graphs on MUA because they are supposedly from researchers at LRP. But my source, I know that source is exceptionally privy to all sunscreen science and all the information I obtained from that source, including the statements about UVA rays being more or less constant throughout the year, were reviewed by others.
Perhaps this is an area where there is conflicting study or perhaps the MUA graphs are outdated? I'm not sure.
It IS true that UVB rays do lesson in the winter and with time of day.
Let me know your thoughts!
Kathleen |
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:25 am |
| yeah, so im a nerd. I dunno why but i decided to send the weather channel an email about the question resulting in the UVA conflict. Not sure if that would help any but i really wouldn't mind seeing if they are educated about that. One thing that does bug me about that channel is they never give the UV index in the winter time. Maybe they will respond with interesting information, or a bunch of uselessness. Hopefully good information. |
_________________
Extremely fair/sensitive skin(mild rosacea)that burns very easy.acne is rare/skin is dry.27 years old. |
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:27 am |
Some great advice here!
With regards to MMU and Euro sunscreens - I remember BadBird (I know some folk had issues with her advice but there was some useful stuff in there)mentioned you could use cornstarch or a powder such as Jurlique Silk Dust over the SPF as a 'primer' and barrier between your euro spf and your MMU to prevent the breakdown of the SPF. As I use a mexoryl based spf 50+ and cannot part with my Aromaleigh Voile (the glissade broke me out  ) I have been faithfully using Jurlique powder as a buffer between the two (SPF/jurlique/MMU). I am definitely getting good SPF and anti pigment protection by the look of my skin but can someone (Kathleen?) confirm that the primer method is ok or not? (Crossing everything as love my current Sunscreen and my Aromaleigh MMU!)
Thanks! |
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Lucia, VERY fair (ghostly so!)redhead, combination skin prone to dehydration. |
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:36 am |
 i forgot to even ask. I am delving out of the whole physical sunscreen stuff (i am so tired of being a white cake face lol ) and giving a chemical sunscreen a try. I used to have pretty bad rosacea but am proud to say it's under control right now completely. I had tried sunscreens in the past with avobenzone (neutrogena..ugh) and had massive rashes on my face when going into the sun. With this given, perhaps I could be recommended a sunscreen without this ingredient? are there any sunscreen active ingredients that are more gentle for sensitive skin types than others? Also, my skin is dry on the outer cheeks, but the t zone can get oily. im leaning maybe towards something that isn't too drying for me. I use aromaleigh in glissade too if that helps. Thanks |
_________________
Extremely fair/sensitive skin(mild rosacea)that burns very easy.acne is rare/skin is dry.27 years old. |
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:32 am |
I have the opposite problem. I've been photosensitive my whole life. I didn't know this until I was 22. I've used chemical sunblocks until I was 32. At that age, I started seeing fine lines creeping up.  So since then I've been using Shiseido SPF 55. It's got 13.9% zinc oxide and 7.5% octinoxate. Now, I'm beginning to see what looks like age spots....Ugghhh...Anyhow, I need a good physical block sunscreen. Does anyone know one that doesn't make the face all pasty and doesn't clump? Thanks |
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:24 am |
Hi Kathleen
I haven't vanished, been looking around at UVA info and I just don't know.
One of the studies on MUA is by Roche and the other is by Regional Medical Physics Department, Newcastle General Hospital and it's published by Elsevier Science (USA). Whether that's good or bad, I really couldn't say  It's from 2002 so I suppose it could be out of date.
I see on your site you've put "UVA rays remain fairly constant throughout the day and even from season to season", but can you tell us any details of what your source said? Is there a chart or a table?
In all honesty it's just my feeling that this can't be right because UVA comes from the sun and the sun's relative position to the earth changes.
I might ask the Met Office.
Thanks for the advice BTW. I used the Clinique for daily protection for 2 or 3 years before I started on the Avene and I've tried physical screens inbetween, but I do feel in a high UV index and lightly using AHA's/retinoids I need more. I suppose I could afford a few samples without breaking the bank - love samples
Molly |
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:07 am |
Here is my other post about relative matteness between sunscreens:
Out of all the European, reasonably high PPD sunscreens I have tried, the most matte was Avene Gel-cream SPF 20/PPD 20. Note: this is NOT Avene Emulsion (which is not matte). This one is more matte than the Bioderma AKN fluid. Here is my personal take on matte-ness, from most to least matte. I have oily/combination skin, moreso in summer....
Shiseido Ultra High Prot. Cream SPF 55+++(Phys)
Nucelle SPF 30
Avene Gel-cream SPF 20/PPD 20
DHC "White" SPF 25 --physical, not high PPD
Linda Sy Z-Cote SPF 20--physical, not high PPD
Diana Yvonne (PSF) Spray SPF 29-- " " "
Procyte Z-Silk SPF 30/PPD ~10
Bioderma AKN Spray SPF 50/PPD 26
Bioderma Fluide SPF 50/PPD 28 (?)
Anthelios W Gel, SPF 40/PPD 19
SVR 50 + B/PPD ? (pretty high PPD)
Bioderma Cream SPF 50/PPD 35
Vichy Lait-Gel SPF 50+/PPD 20+
Avene Emulsion SPF 50+/PPD 25+
Anthelios X Fluide SPF 60/PPD 25+
Note: some of these do not have high PPD (at all) but if I know the PPD rating I included it |
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:52 am |
Holly, thank you for your interest in Aromaleigh products. I’m afraid you’ve received some misinformation, as we have not created our mineral foundation formulations with a specific intent to make them work better with chemical sunscreens, nor have we conducted any research into this matter.
There are some members of a particular forum who believe the silicone-coated pigments used in Glissade prevent this product from reacting with chemical sunscreens the way regular mineral makeup does. However, this opinion is formed only from personal experience and not from any actual research (as far as we know) or any claims made by our company.
If you would like to try our Glissade formulation, we recommend that you take advantage of our sample program to determine whether the product will work for you, as well as which colors will work best. We are unable to accept returns on full size products, so we encourage all customers to take advantage of our reasonably priced samples.
Please let me know if I can help you with any other questions about our products.
Warmly,
Amy
ok i am bummed out now .. |
_________________
Extremely fair/sensitive skin(mild rosacea)that burns very easy.acne is rare/skin is dry.27 years old. |
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:16 pm |
| Well the way I read this response is that Armomaleigh has not done any testing on this. It doesn't mean that the silicone-based products are not more friendly to chem. sunscreens (as per Kathleen's research). So I wouldn't be bummed about this response from Amy of Aromaleigh. |
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:13 pm |
Molly,
Since one of the sources you quoted for UVA rays varying is Roche, take a look at this also from Roche which seems to contradict what you say about UVA being variable throughout the year or at different times of the day.
http://www.roche.com/pages/facets/1/uvfilte.htm
Who knows what to believe?
Theresa |
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:42 pm |
The confusion mounts I'm still trying to understand PPD ratings, and now I just read about PA ratings...???
Can someone explain?
Also... elsewhere on this forum someone suggested that wearing makeup wiht spf on top of sunscreen/sunblock can actually degrade it...?
Kathleen? Anyone?
Thanks! |
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:37 pm |
| The PA, PPD, and +++ ratings are just different ways to report UVA protection. There is no standardized, international method to indicate those levels. |
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:41 pm |
Montrealgal, Something important to note with the PA rating is that the top one (PA+++) only seems to indicate a PPD of 8 or above so it's actually quite low.
PA is Japanese, but you see it here in China too. I think it's out of date, maybe it's because it was implemented prior to higher PPD sunscreens being available and whilst SS had very little or no UVA protection in them.
There's a similar star rating system in the UK started by Boots (a big chain drugstore) - I think 5 is tops, but again it's not a very accurate indication.
So PPD is more helpful than either of those. |
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