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Tue May 29, 2012 11:49 am  |
thanks Bethany! Does anyone have the full ingredient list for this? I could not find online |
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42! Currently using: NCN All-in-One, Mito-Q cream, Eviron AVST, Osea, Grateful Body. Wouldnt be without: Rhassoul clay, avocado oil, Glorybe Herbals hydrosols and perfume oils |
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Tue May 29, 2012 11:54 am |
My guess is that he wanted to be the first to publish a book about needling. Interest in the treatment is growing and the demand for more info is likely to follow.
BFG |
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Tue May 29, 2012 11:57 am |
| erg wrote: |
thanks Bethany! Does anyone have the full ingredient list for this? I could not find online |
Unless it is listed in full on the package, I think finding the full ingredient list online will be difficult at best?
http://www.theperformanceleader.com/environ-skin-care-review/ |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue May 29, 2012 12:05 pm |
that;s what I am thinking too... Maybe someone who has this can share... pretty please  |
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42! Currently using: NCN All-in-One, Mito-Q cream, Eviron AVST, Osea, Grateful Body. Wouldnt be without: Rhassoul clay, avocado oil, Glorybe Herbals hydrosols and perfume oils |
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Tue May 29, 2012 4:23 pm |
| erg wrote: |
thanks Bethany! Does anyone have the full ingredient list for this? I could not find online |
I have not found any ingredient lists online for Environ.
Ignore any typos!
Capylic/Capric Triglyceride, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Tocopheryl Acetate, Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate, Ethylhexyl Methoxcinnamate, Retinyl Acetate, Butyl Methoxydibenzoylmethane, Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil, BHT |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Tue May 29, 2012 6:25 pm |
So I read the book this evening....definitely a nice summary for someone who is new to rolling and doesn't want to read a bunch of different articles. But if you read all the articles in the past and are well versed on the wound healing cascade, it may not be worth the money.
For me, it basically confirmed what I believed years ago after reading all those separate articles/studies:
- Less is more...rolling too frequently with longer needles can be damaging (collagenase)
- Rolling frequently with even a .5mm looks like it is producing early wrinkle reduction, but it is really just inflammation/edema
- Long needles really aren't necessary (he says .5mm provides both epidermal and dermal injury)
A new take away for me was that CP's should not be used right after rolling, and are better utilized 5 or more days after a medical roll (.5mm or 1mm) though I personally do not use CP's anymore. And it did encourage me to try the daily rolling for penetration again.
Truthfully, I wish this book was required reading for all new rollers. Maybe this will help get the word out in a more authoritative manner that people can actually damage their skin by overdoing the dermarolling. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Tue May 29, 2012 7:37 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
So I read the book this evening....definitely a nice summary for someone who is new to rolling and doesn't want to read a bunch of different articles. But if you read all the articles in the past and are well versed on the wound healing cascade, it may not be worth the money.
For me, it basically confirmed what I believed years ago after reading all those separate articles/studies:
- Less is more...rolling too frequently with longer needles can be damaging (collagenase)
- Rolling frequently with even a .5mm looks like it is producing early wrinkle reduction, but it is really just inflammation/edema
- Long needles really aren't necessary (he says .5mm provides both epidermal and dermal injury)
A new take away for me was that CP's should not be used right after rolling, and are better utilized 5 or more days after a medical roll (.5mm or 1mm) though I personally do not use CP's anymore. And it did encourage me to the daily rolling for penetration again.
Truthfully, I wish this book was required reading for all new rollers. Maybe this will help get the word out in a more authoritative manner that people can actually damage their skin by overdoing the dermarolling. |
bethany, I'm confused. First you say that you shouldn't roll too frequently and then you say you think you are going to do daily rolling. What's the difference? What size roller do you use on a daily basis? TIA |
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Tue May 29, 2012 7:56 pm |
| jom wrote: |
| bethany, I'm confused. First you say that you shouldn't roll too frequently and then you say you think you are going to do daily rolling. What's the difference? What size roller do you use on a daily basis? TIA |
Jom, there are 2 types of rolling...cosmetic (or penetration) rolling vs. medical rolling. There are threads on both today on EDS.
The cosmetic rolling increases product penetration and releases growth factors....needles are typically .2mm or .3mm.
Medical rolling triggers the wound healing cascade and stimulates collagen development....Dr. S defines those needles as .5mm or longer.
So you want to roll frequently for product penetration, and less frequently for a medical roll to avoid collagenase. These are the same principles that Dr. F and Horst Liebl (the co-inventors of the dermaroller) shared.
Here is an excerpt from an old article I posted in 2008:
| bethany wrote: |
Here is a breakdown of the Dermaroller needle lengths, as described by one of the inventing doctors:
| Quote: |
The Dermaroller™ consists of a series of devices, which have both cosmetic and medical applications. Their mechanism of action is through the painless piercing of the stratum corneum of the epidermis and the subsequent tremendous increase in absorption of every substance one might apply on the human skin.
The Dermaroller™ C-8 (Cosmetic type), consists of a 12cm handle at the end of which lies a cylinder, like a small paint-roller, of 2cm diameter and 2cm length. On the surface of the cylinder, 24 circular arrays of 8 needles each (total 192 needles) are found, with a needle length of only 0.13mm (130 µm). Rolling the cylinder on the skin surface creates micro-channels on the stratum corneum, through which any kind of substance applied on the skin will gain access to the deeper and viable skin layers. The size is of the needles is more than enough to pierce the stratum corneum and allow increase in absorption of almost 10,000-fold compared to simple application to skin, but are small enough to be absolutely painless on the skin.
The Dermaroller™ C-8HE (Cosmetic model for hair-bearing surfaces, scalp - later named: Model M03) has the same size and amount of needles with the Dermaroller C-8, but the needle length is 0.3mm (300 µm). This length is still below the pain threshold, as it will be later demonstrated.
The Dermaroller™ CIT-8 (CIT: Collagen Induction Therapy, Medical model) has the same characteristics with the Cosmetic types but in this case the needle length is 0.5mm (500 µm). Rolling the cylinder on the skin surface creates deeper micro-channels on the stratum corneum, through which any kind of substance we apply on the skin will gain access to even deeper and viable skin layers. On the same time, controlled, minuscule trauma is caused to the dermis, which reacts physiologically by producing collagen. The exact mechanisms of action are described later.
The Dermaroller™ MF-8 has the same characteristics with the Cosmetic types but in this case the needle length is 1.5mm (1500µm). Rolling the cylinder on the skin surface creates even deeper micro-channels on the whole epidermis and dermis. At the same time, these longer needles will destroy scar collagen bundles, atrophic stretch marks or cellulitis bundles (orange skin).
The Dermaroller™ MS-4 is the only Dermaroller that has a smaller cylinder, 1cm length, 2cm diameter, and subsequently 4 circular arrays of needles (total 96 needles). It has the same needle length like the MF-8 model, that is 1.5mm (1500µm), it has the same indications of use like the MF-8 but mostly on areas where precision and deeper penetration is required. It is mostly used on facial acne scars.
http://www.dermaroller.de/us/science/percutanous-delivery.html
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http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860 |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Tue May 29, 2012 8:04 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
| bethany, I'm confused. First you say that you shouldn't roll too frequently and then you say you think you are going to do daily rolling. What's the difference? What size roller do you use on a daily basis? TIA |
Jom, there are 2 types of rolling...cosmetic (or penetration) rolling vs. medical rolling. There are threads on both today on EDS.
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Thanks bethany. I'm just starting to think about dermarolling so I'm just beginning to look into it. Sorry if I'm making you repeat old info. |
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Tue May 29, 2012 8:08 pm |
| jom wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
| bethany, I'm confused. First you say that you shouldn't roll too frequently and then you say you think you are going to do daily rolling. What's the difference? What size roller do you use on a daily basis? TIA |
Jom, there are 2 types of rolling...cosmetic (or penetration) rolling vs. medical rolling. There are threads on both today on EDS.
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Thanks bethany. I'm just starting to think about dermarolling so I'm just beginning to look into it. Sorry if I'm making you repeat old info. |
No problem...feel free to PM me if you have any questions! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Wed May 30, 2012 5:09 am |
I have engaged Dr. Setterfield in a discussion regarding rolling, his newer research, new recommendations, specifically where his own practices and recommendations differ from Dr. F.
So far, our discussion is centering around the embryo wound healing process - he believes this is the key to arriving at the best way to rejuvenate skin and in particular, the role of inflammation and when to use anti-inflammatories, as we here on this forum first raised this question - you can search for Bethany's earlier posts and my thread on acute vs. chronic inflammation for further details.
One last time, if anyone has anything they want me to ask, let me know.
BFG |
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Wed May 30, 2012 5:46 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
| One last time, if anyone has anything they want me to ask, let me know. |
I would like an outright clarification that a 0.5mm roller can be used once a week.
I would also like you to ask if there is anything that should NOT be rolled into the skin. Serums and creams may contain preservatives, chemicals, silicones or whatever that might not be suitable to put on open wounds.
Thanks BFG! |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed May 30, 2012 5:54 am |
BG,
I would like to know if we should wait for a certain period of time after rolling and then put serum on the skin.
TIA! |
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Wed May 30, 2012 5:58 am |
| summer2004 wrote: |
BG,
I would like to know if we should wait for a certain period of time after rolling and then put serum on the skin. |
My understanding is that serums should be applied while the channels from rolling are still open - but that might not be the case for some serums (CPs for example) and it ties in nicely with my question re what not to roll in. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed May 30, 2012 6:11 am |
Keliu,
I have read the "Dermaroller" thread that collagen may be boosted from the inflammation caused by rolling; if it is the case, some actives may speed up healing and it may stop collagen from being formed.
Pls correct me if I am wrong!
Also, I would like to know if we should press the roller all the way down to the skin & pierce the skin till we hit the bed of the roller. |
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Wed May 30, 2012 6:20 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
One last time, if anyone has anything they want me to ask, let me know.
BFG |
I would like you to ask him how long the channels are open after dermarolling. I remember reading they close fairly quickly, yet I have seen some mention of 1 hour, so it would be nice to know what he thinks. |
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Wed May 30, 2012 7:51 am |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
One last time, if anyone has anything they want me to ask, let me know.
BFG |
I would like you to ask him how long the channels are open after dermarolling. I remember reading they close fairly quickly, yet I have seen some mention of 1 hour, so it would be nice to know what he thinks. |
I also read somewhere (not in his book) that the channels actually close within minutes? I wonder if that does vary depending on needle length? |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed May 30, 2012 10:32 am |
Ok, I have sent the questions and my own comments.
With regard to what not to use with rolling, he answered that one last night...he mentioned any serum containing emulsifiers, which I understand to mean anything containing both water and oil solubles. He indicates these serums contain ingredients such as detergents that will trigger inflammation and counteract the effect we are trying to achieve. He pointed me to that dermaviduals site for more info on the topic. (I linked on the main page here).
I think I am beginning to see where he is going with moving beyond the work of Dr. F. with new research he is doing...shorter needles, more frequency, more concern for inflammation, more concern for barrier integrity and use of anti-inflammatories, etc. leading eventually to some kind of conclusion that we do not need to injure the skin in order to rejuvenate it. All of this is taking me back a couple years to when we first pondered this same question here and concluded there was no sure way to know exactly where the productive inflammation ended and the destructive inflammation began. Maybe he can soon answer that question.
When I was reading the book, some of his comments reminded me of the same comments made by DrJ and DragoN...so perhaps we are leading somewhere else, stay tuned lol.
BFG |
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Wed May 30, 2012 1:37 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Ok, I have sent the questions and my own comments.
With regard to what not to use with rolling, he answered that one last night...he mentioned any serum containing emulsifiers, which I understand to mean anything containing both water and oil solubles. BFG |
So ... no Cellese AnteAGE products after rolling then? |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Wed May 30, 2012 1:53 pm |
short or long needles?
BFG |
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Wed May 30, 2012 2:07 pm |
| Lacy53 wrote: |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Ok, I have sent the questions and my own comments.
With regard to what not to use with rolling, he answered that one last night...he mentioned any serum containing emulsifiers, which I understand to mean anything containing both water and oil solubles. BFG |
So ... no Cellese AnteAGE products after rolling then? |
Lacy, thank you for asking this.
BFG, what needle length was he talking about when he answered your question on what Not to use with rolling? |
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Wed May 30, 2012 2:10 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
So I read the book this evening....definitely a nice summary for someone who is new to rolling and doesn't want to read a bunch of different articles. But if you read all the articles in the past and are well versed on the wound healing cascade, it may not be worth the money.
For me, it basically confirmed what I believed years ago after reading all those separate articles/studies:
- Less is more...rolling too frequently with longer needles can be damaging (collagenase)
- Rolling frequently with even a .5mm looks like it is producing early wrinkle reduction, but it is really just inflammation/edema
- Long needles really aren't necessary (he says .5mm provides both epidermal and dermal injury)
A new take away for me was that CP's should not be used right after rolling, and are better utilized 5 or more days after a medical roll (.5mm or 1mm) though I personally do not use CP's anymore. And it did encourage me to try the daily rolling for penetration again.
Truthfully, I wish this book was required reading for all new rollers. Maybe this will help get the word out in a more authoritative manner that people can actually damage their skin by overdoing the dermarolling. |
bethany - does the book mention when CPs should be used? Is it one of the daily topicals they were thinking of? And, if you gather the CPs should not be utilized until 5 or more days after a medical rolls, does the book mention using them immediately after a cosmetic roll (which is what I would think is most beneficial).
Is there any reason given in the book as to not using CPs immediately after a medical roll? If not, then BFG> can you ask why?
On a foot note - I have used CPs after long needle rolls and with some great results. BUT - I also experience some significant downtime in healing (I think it takes longer with this process, but the results end up very good)*I use this method mostly on spot treatments.
I would like to know the best protocol, so please report back. |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Wed May 30, 2012 2:12 pm |
| Lacy53 wrote: |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Ok, I have sent the questions and my own comments.
With regard to what not to use with rolling, he answered that one last night...he mentioned any serum containing emulsifiers, which I understand to mean anything containing both water and oil solubles. BFG |
So ... no Cellese AnteAGE products after rolling then? |
What were the emulsifiers in AnteAGE?? (And, I was thinking this might be a good product to try in a future roll) |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Wed May 30, 2012 2:27 pm |
| foxe wrote: |
| Lacy53 wrote: |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Ok, I have sent the questions and my own comments.
With regard to what not to use with rolling, he answered that one last night...he mentioned any serum containing emulsifiers, which I understand to mean anything containing both water and oil solubles. BFG |
So ... no Cellese AnteAGE products after rolling then? |
What were the emulsifiers in AnteAGE?? (And, I was thinking this might be a good product to try in a future roll) |
AnteAGE SERUM 30 ML
Ingredients: Mesenchymal Stem Cell Cytokines, Water (Aqua), Palmitoyl Oligopeptide, Niacinamide (Vitamin B3), Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide-7, PPG-3 Benzyl Myristate, Dimethyl Isosorbide, Carnosine, Hydrolyzed Myrtus Communis (True Myrtle) Leaf Extract, Polyacrylate-13, Camellia Sinensis (Green Tea) Leaf Extract, Maltodextrin, Ilex
Paraguariensis (Paraguay) Leaf (Yerba Mate) Extract, Cetearyl Ethylhexanoate, Polyisobutene, Phenoxyethanol (Preservative), Caprylyl Glycol (Naturally Derived Preservative), Polysorbate-20 (Plant Derived), Chlorphenesin, Tetrasodium EDTA, Citric Acid (Naturally Derived)
AnteAGE ACCELERATOR 50 ML
Mesenchymal Stem Cell Cytokines, Water (Aqua), Glycerin (Plant Derived), C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, PPG-3 Benzyl Myristate, Carthamus Tinctorius (Safflower) Seed Oil, Alcohol, Cetearyl Alcohol (Plant Derived), Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E Acetate), Polysorbate-20 (Plant Derived), Cetearyl Glucoside, Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate (Vitamin C Ester), Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Limnanthes Alba (Meadowfoam) Seed Oil, Dimethyl Isosorbide, Butylene Glycol, Polysorbate-60 (Plant Derived), Glyceryl Stearate (Plant Derived), Lecithin, Hydroxyethyl Acrylate/Sodium Acryloyl Dimethyl Taurate Copolymer, Soybean Glycerides, Arachidyl Alcohol, Soy Isoflavones, Phenoxyethanol (Preservative), Helianthus Annuus (Hybrid Sunflower) Oil, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter) Fruit, Bisabolol, Caprylyl Glycol (Naturally Derived Preservative), Behenyl Alcohol, Lonicera Japonica (Honeysuckle) Extract (Natural Preservative), Foeniculum Vulgare (Fennel) Fruit Extract, Camellia Oleifera (ORGANIC) Black Tea, Algae (Seaweed) Extract, Xanthan Gum (Natural Thickener), Saccharum Officinarum (Sugar Cane), Chlorphenesin, Squalane (Plant Derived), Retinol (Vitamin A), Ubiquinone (Coenzyme Q10), Panthenol (Pro-Vitamin B5), Allantoin (Comfrey Root Derived), Citrus Medica Limonum (Lemon) Fruit Extract, Citrus Aurantium Dulcis (Sweet Neroli Orange) Fruit, Tetrasodium EDTA, Pyrus Malus (Apple) Fruit Juice, Sodium Hyaluronate, Camellia Sinensis (Green Tea) Leaf Extract, Arachidyl Glucoside, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Extract, Salix Alba (Willow) Bark Extract, Vaccinium Myrtillus (Bilberry) Extract, Phyllanthus Emblica (Amla) Extract, Thioctic Acid (a-Lipoic Acid), Sodium Hydroxide (pH Modifier)
http://anteage.com/ |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed May 30, 2012 2:35 pm |
| Maybe rolling in preservatives (like phenoxy ethanol etc.) isn't such a good idea either? |
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