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Mon May 19, 2008 1:31 am  |
Recently there has been some great debate about the dangers of using Hydrogen Peroxide directly on your skin, or as an ingredient in a skincare product. However, there has been NOTHING debated or reported about using STABILIZED Hydrogen Peroxide as an ingredient in a skin care product such as an emulsion or cream. For this reason I felt that a thread about using STABILIZED Hydrogen Peroxide as an ingredient in emulsions/creams was warranted.
The most popular skin care line that uses Stabilized Hydrogen Peroxide in several of its flagship products is Karin Herzog (www.shop.karinherzog.ch ).
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Karin Herzog Skin Care Products
Developed by Nobel Institute honoree, Dr. Paul Herzog, Karin Herzog medical grade skin care from Switzerland has distinguished itself as a worldwide leader in skin care treatment. Karin Herzog products are a unique, patented product line containing the proper balance of ingredients necessary to allow the skin to function and breathe normally. Karin Herzog's Emulsions keep the skin looking young, radiant and best of all healthy.
The products are so pure, and quality standards so rigorous, that many of the Karin Herzog products require no preservatives. The cornerstone of all Herzog Products is the patented Vita-A-Kombi emulsion with stabilized oxygen, distilled water, and Vitamins A and E.
Dr. Herzog was the first chemist to stabilize hydrogen peroxide - one of nature's greatest disinfectants- in an emulsion form which breaks down into oxygen gas and water on contact with the skin. This process actually allows oxygen to pass directly into the skin with exceptional results. These emulsions are now being used to treat certain skin conditions (including skin ulcers) and have shown unparalleled results in helping maintain healthy skin - from the most sensitive to problems skin types. |
Can anyone please tell me (preferably with scientific studies and/or professionally published articles) why stabilized hydrogen peroxide is BAD as an ingredient in skin care products/emulsions and why I should FEAR it like the plague? |
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Fair with mild rosascea & combination skin (dry with oily t-zone) |
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Mon May 19, 2008 5:24 am |
Im not saying it's definitely good or bad but naturally my initial reaction is of skepticism. I've tried to find any clinical studies on stabilized hydrogen peroxide that had the conclusion that stbilized hydrogen peroxide is good on the skin and I couldn't find anything...
Now, I'm not saying these studies don't exist, it's possible I just couldn't find them. (pubmed is my source of choice). If you can direct me to a clinical study that supports KH's claims, that would be great! |
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Mon May 19, 2008 5:46 am |
| Also even if no such study exists it is still possible that stabilized hydrogen peroxide can do good things for the skin. Since so many EDS members are having great results with KH something has to be behind it. |
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Mon May 19, 2008 8:11 am |
I'm with Nimue on this one; before I use "actives" on my skin, I personally prefer to have positive research indicating safety and efficacy, particularly when the ingredient in question has known toxicity like hydrogen peroxide. But that's a matter of personal choice. Others may prefer to try something for themselves and take the chance that it works well and the risk that it may be a waste of money or even be harmful. Again, that is a matter of personal choice. I appreciate hearing about other people's experiences with products here, even if I decide not to try them because I am unconvinced about the science behind them.
I have to say that the quote here from ScotsLass raises a few red flags for me. Calling Dr Herzog a "Nobel Institute honoree" strikes me as perhaps misleading,since a consumer might think that means he is a Nobel prize winner, when he is not. I checked. According to websites selling the products, Dr. Herzog was apparently involved in the development of the respirator and was an epidemiologist--no background in chemistry, pharmacology, or dermatology, though. Saying that "the products are so pure and quality standards so rigorous, that many Karen Herzog products require no preservatives" also strikes me as somewhat misleading--purity and quality control have nothing to do with whether a product may break down over time or become subject to bacterial or fungal contamination and thus benefit from a preservative. Saying that the products show "unparalleled results" in treating skin conditions including skin ulcers suggests that there have been comparative studies showing efficacy. If there have been, they don't show up on Pubmed. This kind of promotional material makes me uncomfortable personally.
Like I said, though, the choice of whether to try any cosmeceutical is ultimately a personal one. I value this forum and the experience of its member as an important source of information about new products to consider trying. |
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Mon May 19, 2008 8:29 am |
I think this is one of those things that good people will always disagree on. It has been in use for generations (I mean hydrogen peroxide), it is something our own bodies produce, it is highly regarded in the homeopathic movement as being safe and effective.
Are KH and Auro and all the rest trying to promote their product as the best out there- of course, it is a business, that's what you do- if dr. herzog is a nobel honoree than I do not see where it is misleading to state that as a part of his resume.
As I said to begin with, good people will disagree...independent clinical studies one way or another, if and when I find them I will let you know. |
_________________
46 with combination skin,natural strawberry blonde, green eyes, fair complexion- using Karin Herzog and topping it off with osmosis shelter |
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Mon May 19, 2008 11:56 am |
Not really ruk1 since these articles are talking about the high concentrations used in industry- not applicable in this discussion, think of what is said about a glass of wine being beneficial, but in an alcoholic... |
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46 with combination skin,natural strawberry blonde, green eyes, fair complexion- using Karin Herzog and topping it off with osmosis shelter |
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Mon May 19, 2008 12:09 pm |
Claim: HP is broken down by the enzyme (some say antioxidant) catalase, to water and oxygen. This is, from what I have read, true. (Google catalase.)
KH claims catalase is already on the skin. This also seem to be the concensus.
So, when left with water and oxygen, the KH formula supposedly has both trapped on the skin (assuming mineral oil has a role here?), not having anywhere to go but into the skin. Hence the so called propelling of water, oxygen, the vit a and e in the formula into the skin. This I cannot confirm, but since we have heard so much about mineral oil and the protective/not letting skin breathe (!) layer it forms, it kinda makes some sense.
Now, someone go find a 9th grader, as some of this apparently is in their curriculum. http://mallikvedam.com/mywebsite/myprojects/web_projects/myworksites/malliktemp/frames/lcatalase.pdf |
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Mon May 19, 2008 12:12 pm |
| Sharkbait wrote: |
| So, when left with water and oxygen, the KH formula supposedly has both trapped on the skin (assuming mineral oil has a role here?), not having anywhere to go but into the skin. Hence the so called propelling of water, oxygen, the vit a and e in the formula into the skin. |
That sounds pretty much like what the KH patent said. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon May 19, 2008 12:14 pm |
| Yes, hence the <supposedly>. |
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Mon May 19, 2008 1:08 pm |
According to the first source, it's highly irritating to the skin and hazardoes. That probably means in high concentrations, but still. |
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Mon May 19, 2008 5:26 pm |
According to the first source, it's highly irritating to the skin and hazardoes. That probably means in high concentrations, but still.[/quote]
So are acids or many things we all have used or choose to continue to use.... in high concentrations. Within reason they provide good results and positive outcomes. |
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Mon May 19, 2008 5:57 pm |
| that is just it- in these cases where it is highly toxic they are using 52-65% concentrations for industrial purposes- in skin care lines we are talking about .5-3% concentrations, it is just not reasonable to say because of the danger at high concentration we should ignore the many decades of successful use in other areas- and despite what has been said other places, our doctor does still recommend its use for treating infections and fungus topically. |
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46 with combination skin,natural strawberry blonde, green eyes, fair complexion- using Karin Herzog and topping it off with osmosis shelter |
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Mon May 19, 2008 6:15 pm |
Isn't Europe much more stringent than the US, such as not allowing hydroquinone, etc. to be used when there is any chance of cancer?
If there was any chance of KH causing problems, I would have assumed that they would have closed it down long ago.  |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon May 19, 2008 7:41 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
Isn't Europe much more stringent than the US, such as not allowing hydroquinone, etc. to be used when there is any chance of cancer?
If there was any chance of KH causing problems, I would have assumed that they would have closed it down long ago. |
Stands to reason. and 20 years on the market .... That's a good showing. How many companies stand the test of time like that?
My thing is ...Since this product has been around for so long and IF it is indeed the problem that has been discussed or believed by many here.... in terms of hydrogen peroxide, WHY don't we see and hear reports of damaged clients as a result of product usage? After 20 years you'd expect rampant reports if and only if this were the case. and clearly it is not.
Another point: Why are people paying big bucks for oxygen facials (Madonna for example). ANd this has been going on for a long, long time.
A final product is bigger than just the ingredients in the package. NO matter what product you are discussing.
I have a strong science background and I would never tackle this. I think maybe a little knowledge can be dangerous in some cases. |
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Tue May 20, 2008 3:36 am |
| flitcraft wrote: |
I have to say that the quote here from ScotsLass raises a few red flags for me. Calling Dr Herzog a "Nobel Institute honoree" strikes me as perhaps misleading,since a consumer might think that means he is a Nobel prize winner, when he is not. I checked. According to websites selling the products, Dr. Herzog was apparently involved in the development of the respirator and was an epidemiologist--no background in chemistry, pharmacology, or dermatology, though. Saying that "the products are so pure and quality standards so rigorous, that many Karen Herzog products require no preservatives" also strikes me as somewhat misleading--purity and quality control have nothing to do with whether a product may break down over time or become subject to bacterial or fungal contamination and thus benefit from a preservative. Saying that the products show "unparalleled results" in treating skin conditions including skin ulcers suggests that there have been comparative studies showing efficacy. If there have been, they don't show up on Pubmed. This kind of promotional material makes me uncomfortable personally.
Like I said, though, the choice of whether to try any cosmeceutical is ultimately a personal one. I value this forum and the experience of its member as an important source of information about new products to consider trying. |
You're right, flitcraft, the quote is misleading as Dr. Herzog was not a Nobel Institute honoree. I am so used to reading that he was awarded his Honoris Causa status from the Nobel Institute that I missed the reference to "honoree" in the verbiage I posted. I have since checked a number of other sources on the net and a few sites have mistakenly said he was an honoree too, so it appears there is some misinformation about this particular issue out there. Thanks for catching the oversight. 
As for the absence of preservatives in a number of the KH products, I'm betting that the stabilized H202 (which is in a liquid form in the products and is a natural anti-bacterial agent) has a lot to do with this. As I mentioned in the current Karin Herzog thread, the salon that gave me my samples has been using and selling the entire KH range exclusively for 4 years now and I doubt they'd be so committed to such a line if the products caused skin damage or broke down and went funky after you opened them. Especially since they use these very products in all of their facial treatments (which means the jars and bottles are opened and closed all the time). This salon is also located in the heart of the most exclusive (read mega-expensive) area of Toronto. The competition is insanely fierce in this area, so whatever service or product is offered must be top-notch in every respect. So I'm certain that bacterial or fungal contamination is a priority and not something that would be tolerated in any way.
Personally, I do not insist that every product I try has to have a 'clinical study' behind it because there are a number of great skin care lines that do not have product-specific studies, such as PSF, as one example. However, I always do some kind of research into a product that interests me, regardless of it's popularity. I was impressed to learn that Dr. Herzog took eight years to research and develop his oxygen emulsion creams, and that his original intention for them was for medical use. He wanted to create a stabilized oxygen cream that surgeons could use to wash their hands with before they performed surgery. H202 has powerful anti-bacterial properties, so he theorized that a soap containing a stablized form of H202 would help to keep the doctors hands bacteria-free for a longer period of time, as the oxygen levels that are pushed into the skin continue to remain active after application. Therefore making it more effective than regular anti-bacterial soaps. During product testing with his wife, Karin (who is a Beautician), she decided to test the cream on her face to see what kind of benefits the oxygen would offer. The results were quite dramatic so she convinced her husband to market the oxygen emulsions as a cosmedic skin care line instead, which he ultimately did and named after her.
Though Dr. Herzog did not have a background in chemistry, or pharmacology, or dermatology, he was obviously a very clever man who had a passion for inventing products for the medical community. And did so with such great success that he was awarded Honoris Causa status by the Nobel Institute. I can't help but be a bit awed that he created such a unique skin care line in his 70's and continued to develop it right up until he died at age 80!  Talk about a talented and active mind! Here is additional info about his background and inventions for those interested.www.shop.karinherzog.co.uk/web/knowledge/dr-paul-herzog.htm .
Here is another question for everyone. Since the oxygen emulsions include the anti-oxidants Vitamin A and Vitamin E in their formulations, wouldn't it make sense that they play some sort of roll against fighting off free radicals from the stabilized H202, should it actually release any? The Vita-A-Kombi Facial Oil, which is loaded in Vitamin A & E, is also instrumental against free-radical damage since it is typically applied before the oxygen emulsions. If you consider that both the oil and the emulsion combined provide such a substantial dose of anti-oxidant protection, then I have to wonder how it's possible for any free radicals from the H202 to survive. What do others think about this? |
_________________
Fair with mild rosascea & combination skin (dry with oily t-zone) |
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Tue May 20, 2008 5:03 am |
| sister sweets wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
Isn't Europe much more stringent than the US, such as not allowing hydroquinone, etc. to be used when there is any chance of cancer?
If there was any chance of KH causing problems, I would have assumed that they would have closed it down long ago. |
Stands to reason. and 20 years on the market .... That's a good showing. How many companies stand the test of time like that?
My thing is ...Since this product has been around for so long and IF it is indeed the problem that has been discussed or believed by many here.... in terms of hydrogen peroxide, WHY don't we see and hear reports of damaged clients as a result of product usage? After 20 years you'd expect rampant reports if and only if this were the case. and clearly it is not.
Another point: Why are people paying big bucks for oxygen facials (Madonna for example). ANd this has been going on for a long, long time.
A final product is bigger than just the ingredients in the package. NO matter what product you are discussing.
I have a strong science background and I would never tackle this. I think maybe a little knowledge can be dangerous in some cases. |
Couldn't agree more, Sis, if KH oxygen emulsions are so damaging to your skin, I find it remarkable that no one has come forth and reported such a thing in 20 years. I mean doesn't this strike anyone as odd that we cannot find a single report to substantiate that these products are damaging?
The fact that Madonna (who has gobs of money and probably a team of skin care experts at her disposal) has Oxygen facials on a regular basis, speaks volumes to me, too. If oxygen facials were so damaging or complete 'bunk', then why in the world are so many people thrilled by the results they offer? And why would so many celebrities, who consider their faces a vital asset in Hollywood, dare to have them if there were consequences? |
_________________
Fair with mild rosascea & combination skin (dry with oily t-zone) |
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Tue May 20, 2008 5:16 am |
| flitcraft wrote: |
| ... Saying that the products show "unparalleled results" in treating skin conditions including skin ulcers suggests that there have been comparative studies showing efficacy. If there have been, they don't show up on Pubmed. This kind of promotional material makes me uncomfortable personally. |
Apart from trying to create a surgical soap using stabilized oxygen, the emulsions were also positioned (at one time, anyway) to aid to skin recuperation after trauma such as burns, surgery, skin grafts and so on. Based on the article that I've included an excerpt from below, there has been studies conducted in Swiss hospitals that indicated that the oxygen emulsions are effective at treating skin conditions, including leg ulcers.
| Quote: |
Other products that have been shown to increase oxygen penetration to the skin are in the Karin Herzog line. Before Estee Lauder's anti-oxidant research was announced, NBC's "Dateline" program conducted a study using a Transcutaneous Oxygen Monitor to test claims made by the skin care industry regarding increasing oxygen levels in the skin. Various creams and procedures, such as blowing oxygen onto the skin, were tested. The only product proven to work was Herzog's Vita-A-Kombi cream, which contains stabilized oxygen. It was invented by Swiss researcher, Dr. Paul Herzog, inventor of the artificial respirator.
Dr. Herzog's oxygen emulsion creams were originally developed to aid skin recuperation after trauma such as burns, surgery, skin grafts and radiation dermatitis. Since the early 1970s, these creams have been used around the world by burn specialists, dermatologists and plastic surgeons to improve surgery outcomes. (When Dr. Herzog's esthetician wife, Karin, tried the creams on her face and observed glowing results, they decided to market them under her name as skin care products.)
No studies of Karin Herzog formulae have been published in the medical literature, but studies conducted in Swiss hospitals indicate their effectiveness in oxygenating skin and healing leg ulcers, bedsores and scars. Although the company never advertises, the Karin Herzog line enjoys a celebrity following: Steven Spielberg and his wife Kate Capshaw are customers, as are Demi Moore, Courtney Cox and Kyra Sedgwick.
www2.thirdage.com/articles/topical-anti-oxidants-reduce-wrinkles-and-prevent-skin-aging |
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Fair with mild rosascea & combination skin (dry with oily t-zone) |
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Tue May 20, 2008 6:13 am |
And we need to remember that the whole free radical thing is also very controversial. Whether a good thing or bad thing, after all in chemistry it just means that there is an unpaired electron in the molecule and it jumps at the opportunity to bond with something.
for a pretty thorough explanation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_(chemistry) |
_________________
46 with combination skin,natural strawberry blonde, green eyes, fair complexion- using Karin Herzog and topping it off with osmosis shelter |
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Tue May 20, 2008 11:21 am |
| tuningmyheart wrote: |
Not really ruk1 since these articles are talking about the high concentrations used in industry- not applicable in this discussion, think of what is said about a glass of wine being beneficial, but in an alcoholic... |
Oh I see. During my search on this topic, I came across a few other brands like Reviva Lab that makes Oxygen Face Cream type products as well. I wonder how well they do. And doesn't PSF offers something that has O2 in it that people on EDS love? |
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Tue May 20, 2008 1:06 pm |
| About the oxygen facials, that's separate from the KH products. The oxygen facials use this machine that kind of blasts high pressure oxygen at the skin. This irritates the skin but it makes the skin plump up temporarily and "glow" It's totally temporary. |
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Tue May 20, 2008 1:30 pm |
| ruk1 wrote: |
| Oh I see. During my search on this topic, I came across a few other brands like Reviva Lab that makes Oxygen Face Cream type products as well. I wonder how well they do. And doesn't PSF offers something that has O2 in it that people on EDS love? |
Hello, ruk1.
The PSF O2 Rescue serum doesn't contain Hydrogen Peroxide, but oxygenloaded perfluorodecalin and perfluoropolymethyliscopropyl Ether (puh!). This serum is very popular among quite a few EDS members, while others (like me) thought it did nothing.
On PSF's website it's stated that most other oxygen products on the market today make use of HP to oxygenate the skin, but without very specific foreign enzymes being present on the skin, this creates an unstable, rogue oxygen.
The billion dollar question is whether KH and other skin care lines using HP have succeeded in making a formula with these specific foreign enzymes present, and if we can trust that the enzymes are doing their job properly. Safety before beauty.
Intraceuticals, Reviva, Peter Thomas Roth, Bioelements and Nivea are all brands that make oxygen skin care products. I don't know Intraceuticals, but believe the four other brands make use of HP.
Due to the debates about his skin care line, it can at least be eliminated that Dr Herzog has ever been awarded The Nobel Peace Prize. |
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Female, 40, Norway. Normal/dry skin, starting to see signs of aging. Staples: Glycolic acid cleanser, SkinCeuticals Phloretin CF, Revaleskin, NIA24. |
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Tue May 20, 2008 4:35 pm |
Bethany
You made me nervous about hydroquinone. I've been using Obagi for three years and their product has hydroquinone. I was told that as long as I alternate after the first kit I am fine. I loved this product and really do not want to switch to something else.... |
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