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Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:16 pm  |
| That's awesome to read BFG. Too bad I don't use my rollers that often (this might encourage me to get going on it, though) |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:28 pm |
But responses vary with age of subject. These were not old mice. Need to do this study with some humans in their 40's - 50's-60's. I think it will still be superior, at least in younger deciles. |
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Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:51 pm |
A few questions:
1) How thick is mouse dorsal skin vs human facial skin? (MTS 0.5-mm Dermaroller was used)
2) Did the mice have scars? (The study suggests dermarolling is effective for acne scars).
3) Why were results analysed 4 weeks after final treatment?
BTW treatments were performed three times every 3 weeks, and all mice were anesthetized. Here's an interesting article about the differences between mouse and human skin (skip down to Section 2):
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jbb/2011/969618/ |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:54 pm |
Zhongguo Zhen Jiu. 2008 Jan;28(1):61-4.
Effects of "surrounding needling" on hydroxyproline content and ultrastructures in the dermis of aged rats.
[Article in Chinese]
Lu Y.
Source
Affiliated Hospital of Liaoning University of TCM, Shenyang 110032, China. tcm-luyuan@hotmail.com
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
To probe the mechanism of acupuncture in anti-skin aging.
METHODS:
A blank control group, an operation control group, an 8-month young group and an 18-month aged group were set up. Soluble and total hydroxyproline contents of the abdominal skin were compared, and appearance of fibroblast and arrangement of collagenous fibers were observed with transmission electron microscope, effects of surrounding needling on contents of collagenous fibers and ultrastructures of the dermis of the aged rats were observed, and the results were compared with results reported.
RESULTS:
After surrounding needling, soluble hydroxyproline content of the skin significantly increased and the total hydroxyproline content did not change in the rats as compared with the aged control group; and cellular organs in dermis fibroblast decreased and cellular structures retrograded, and the space between collagenous fibers widened, and aging frame-bridge increased in the aged rats, but after surrounding needling fibroblast activity strengthened.
CONCLUSION:
Surrounding needling can change aging state of skin possibly by strengthening the activity of fibroblast in skin and increasing the content of soluble collagen.
Apparently effective on middle aged to old rats. Minus the concomitant DNA damage/ mutations etc of light therapy. Pretty certain the little ones didn't get any nice serums though.
Good point Lacy53
| Quote: |
| 2) Did the mice have scars? (The study suggests dermarolling is effective for acne scars). |
They may not have, I did however have scars but not acne, deep cuts that had become infected. N=1. Fortunately there is quite a bit of research on humans that does support same. The mouse model isn't perfect. |
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If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:07 am |
I think the key item of interest in this study was the head on comparison with IPL.
There are lots of needling studies showing positive results.
I'll soon be all over the Dermapen - and will post a review. lol
BFG |
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:12 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I think the key item of interest in this study was the head on comparison with IPL.
There are lots of needling studies showing positive results.
I'll soon be all over the Dermapen - and will post a review. lol
BFG |
Did you manage to purchase one BFG? I can't wait to hear your review! |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:36 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I think the key item of interest in this study was the head on comparison with IPL.
BFG |
IPL comparison was interesting. Apparently they used the Ellipse Flex from Danish Dermatologic Development; a single IPL pass using a fluence of 10.5 J/cm2 after application of cooled ultrasound gel. The wavelength of IPL ranged from 555 to 950 nm. Two pulses were used, with a duration of 2.5 ms and a delay of 10 ms.
Here are the specs for the Ellipse Flex. According to the FDA filing, the device is an Intense Pulsed Light (IPL) system used for long-term removal of unwanted hair; for treatment of sun-damaged skin, including uneven pigmentation, age spots, large pores, diffuse redness, and for the treatment of telangiectasias, port wine stains and inflammatory acne. They summarize the intended uses as:
- Hair removal (Permanent hair reduction)
- Treatment of benign pigmented lesions (including, but not limited to solar lentigines, ephilides, mottled pigmentation) and benign vascular lesions (including but not limited to diffuse redness, telangiectasias, port wine stains).
- Treatment of inflammatory acne.
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cdrh_docs/pdf5/K052688.pdf
Makes me wonder if comparing Dermarolling to IPL is a valid comparison, since Dermarolling isn't used for hair removal, depigmentation or inflammatory acne. |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:31 pm |
Doesn't appear that they were measuring for the other applications.
This was their only measurement:
"OBJECTIVE: To compare the effects of IPL and MTS on collagen deposition."
BFG |
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:05 pm |
| DragoN wrote: |
Apparently effective on middle aged to old rats. Minus the concomitant DNA damage/ mutations etc of light therapy. Pretty certain the little ones didn't get any nice serums though. |
Poor rats. If we had known we would have sent them some AnteAGE. |
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:12 pm |
Let's do a clinical science quiz. TRUE FALSE
Dermarolling (or PCI) ... compared to lasers (AND AS FAR AS KNOWN IPL)
TRUE FALSE
does more damage to the epidermis
TRUE FALSE
like other semi-invasive procedures, causes cells to release cytokines associated with scarring or fibrosis (more TGF beta 1 than beta 3).
TRUE FALSE
can help with skin laxity
TRUE FALSE
carries more risk of hyperpigmentation |
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:15 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Perhaps they chose IPL as a comparison because it is often touted as an "anti-aging" process.
BFG |
BUT is IPL really "often touted as an anti-aging" treatment though? I know fractionated laser treatments are; not sure about IPL (aka photo facial light treatments). IPL is evaluated and approved for other issues (see my earlier post); not sure about collagen deposition. I don't see it recommended for acne scars either. So maybe comparing IPL to dermarolling is like comparing apples and oranges. Perhaps comparing dermarolling to fractionated laser treatments would be more appropriate. I personally don't know the answers.
My other point was why measure changes 4 weeks after treatment? Doesn't it take much longer than that to see increased collagen formation (in humans at least)? |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:52 pm |
| Lacy53 wrote: |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Perhaps they chose IPL as a comparison because it is often touted as an "anti-aging" process.
BFG |
BUT is IPL really "often touted as an anti-aging" treatment though? I know fractionated laser treatments are; not sure about IPL (aka photo facial light treatments). IPL is evaluated and approved for other issues (see my earlier post); not sure about collagen deposition. I don't see it recommended for acne scars either. So maybe comparing IPL to dermarolling is like comparing apples and oranges. Perhaps comparing dermarolling to fractionated laser treatments would be more appropriate. I personally don't know the answers.
My other point was why measure changes 4 weeks after treatment? Doesn't it take much longer than that to see increased collagen formation (in humans at least)? |
Yes, lacy53. You are quite right. IPL gets overhyped sometimes, but it really is not in the same category.
And yes, collagen induction should be measured over 8-12 weeks. It does take time to see the results.
I suppose it makes the quiz even more tantalizing if we stick to just comparing dermarolling to fractionated laser. Then its apples-apples because both cause multiple small holes in the skin with clear spaces between. Laser makes smaller holes. Any takers? |
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Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:21 pm |
I did not have the microneedle therapy but I've had 3 sessions of IPL so far. I decided to try IPL for my age spots, and so far it seems to help a little. My left cheek spots are way ligter, almost unnoticeable, but the one spot on my right cheek is still there, not sure why it won't go away or scab.
Anyway I did notice that my skin appears firmer now, which I think is a side effect of the IPL. The technician did tell me about the collagen production and pore tightening, but I was not too concerned about that info since it was not my focus. However I must say it is a nice surprise. I do like how my skin looks right now. |
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Tue May 01, 2012 5:45 am |
Yes, maybe someone here will have time to dig up a study that compares dermarolling directly with fractionated lasers...nevertheless, a cursory review via Google shows the preponderance of articles and ads for IPL touting collagen synthesis among other anti-aging effects, although we here think of it as a treatment for age spots. As I always say: (caveat emptor)
From my own notes, our poster bethany got this reply from Horst Liebl:
"The skin reacts to Dermarolling by cell regeneration.Skin reacts to thermal or any other ablative procedures with the body’s repair mechanism – fibrosis.
(For further information, please refer to the article of Christopher S. J. Dunkin et al.: Scarring Occurs at a Critical Depth of Skin Injury…, published 2007 by the American Society of Plastic Surgeons).'
BFG |
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Tue May 01, 2012 6:43 am |
Thank you for posting the link Barefootgirl! If I understand it well, short needled dermarollers like the 0.5 mm I have lying around should be able to help produce collagen, because they would stimulate the production of growth factors and other cytokines involved in wound repair?
And wouldn't this mean that the rolling with shorter needles up to 0.2 mm as done for product penetration also leads to more collagen, no matter which product is being used? Without any risk of scarring? |
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Tue May 01, 2012 12:42 pm |
I agree, microneedling is far cheaper than IPL, but it is not for everybody. I have never seen anyone recommending microneedling for rosacea or as a treatment of broken caps. Perhaps, microneeding is indeed better with respect to production of collagen, but I don't think it is better with respect to other factors. |
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Wed May 02, 2012 12:11 pm |
| RussianSunshine wrote: |
I agree, microneedling is far cheaper than IPL, but it is not for everybody. I have never seen anyone recommending microneedling for rosacea or as a treatment of broken caps. Perhaps, microneeding is indeed better with respect to production of collagen, but I don't think it is better with respect to other factors. |
I have seen needling recommended for broken caps, but not for rosacea. (I don't think needling is recommended for ANY inflammatory condition, in fact, and rosacea is an inflammatory condition.) The theory is that the needling will break up the capillaries and cause them to be resorbed, not unlike the resorption that occurs with V-Beam treatments, etc. |
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Wed May 02, 2012 2:31 pm |
| EthelM wrote: |
I have seen needling recommended for broken caps, |
I've seen it somewhere too but IMHO it is total BS.  I've been using a roller for a long time and saw no effect on my broken caps. |
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Wed May 02, 2012 4:31 pm |
| I turned my monitor upside down but I'm not finding the answer key to DrJ's quiz. |
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Wed May 02, 2012 4:40 pm |
I don't believe that dermarolling disperses the blood in broken caps in the same way that IPL does. However, I believe my broken caps do look much better simply because dermarolling has thickened my skin making them less visible.
I was also under the impression that IPL stimulated collagen growth through the wounding of the dermis - but this is dependent on the intensity of the treatment. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed May 02, 2012 4:44 pm |
| melanie haber wrote: |
| I turned my monitor upside down but I'm not finding the answer key to DrJ's quiz. |
My answers would be: False: True: True: False. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed May 02, 2012 5:01 pm |
| melanie haber wrote: |
| I turned my monitor upside down but I'm not finding the answer key to DrJ's quiz. |
LOL. This is too funny! |
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