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Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:23 am  |
I think I finally found a sunscreen I want to try and only to find out that it has Niacinamide. I am a regular user of Vivier Vitamin C serum and it really works for me.
I read on EDS that there was some concern that Niacinamide may be pro-aging and automatically, I didn't want to know more about Niacinamide.
If I remember correctly, I also read that vitamin C & Niacinamide cannot be worn together.
Can I please get verification that these two above information is correct? |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:48 am |
The issue with C=LAA and Niacinamide as I recall had more to do with the 2 in the same serum because of differing ph needs for optimum results of each active.
I think there are some who believe Niacinamide to be pro-aging, yet most are of the opinion it's not and are still using either DIY or purchased products containing Niacinamide. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:51 am |
| Is it unsafe to have a layer of vitamin C serum and a sunscreen with Niacinamide on top? |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:51 am |
| Also, I can't seem to find any articles about that particular subject. |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:59 am |
| Skincare wrote: |
| Is it unsafe to have a layer of vitamin C serum and a sunscreen with Niacinamide on top? |
I know that is how most use the 2 products together, just give the C serum a say 5 minute space before applying the sunscreen. Much of the information about the ph issue I mentioned is on the Vitamin C DIY thread. There is a thread about Niacinamide, if I recall the title is -Is Niacinamide pro-aging. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:14 am |
I read that thread and did not see any talk about mixing vitamin C & Niacinamide.
I got concerned and wanted to know if there is research on the subject and see if it safe to try the sunscreen that has pure 4% Niacinamide in it. |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:23 am |
| Skincare wrote: |
I read that thread and did not see any talk about mixing vitamin C & Niacinamide.
I got concerned and wanted to know if there is research on the subject and see if it safe to try the sunscreen that has pure 4% Niacinamide in it. |
There isn't an issue with using them in 2 separate products, they just are not compatible ph wise in the same serum or cream. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:34 am |
Crossposting Lacy's post from the C thread
| Lacy53 wrote: |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
Here's the latest serum I've been testing for almost a month and it's fabuloso, if I do say so myself;
18% L-AA
1% Vitamin E
.5% Ferulic Acid
2% Niacinamide
2% Licorice Root Extract
1% Retinyl Palmitate |
Any idea what the final pH of this new recipe is? I only ask, because I found this information when searching for niacinamide instructions:
| Quote: |
To avoid the hydrolysis of Niacinamide to nicotinic acid, we recommend the pH of the finished formulation be in the range of 5.0 to 7.0. The hydrolysis of Niacinamide to nicotinic acid can result in skin flushing, redness and burning. Please note that Niacinamide added to pure distilled water will have the desired pH of 6.0-7.0.
http://www.theherbarie.com/Niacinamide-USP---Vitamin-B3-pr-394.html |
I believe that the pH of an effective L-AA product should be 3.5 or below.
TIA |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:38 am |
| I read that part and didn't understand it. |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:47 am |
The only thing to understand is Niacinamide desired ph is 6.0-7.0 LAA-C ph 3.5 or lower so that's why you wouldn't want to attempt to make a product with the 2 in it.  You can layer no issue! |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:52 am |
| You are amazing! |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:58 am |
| Skincare wrote: |
| You are amazing! |
Not really, but thank you! It can be very confusing about what can't work together in one product and yet can work fine layered separately!  |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:59 am |
| The real issue is not whether niacinamide is pro-aging. The issue is whether or not vitamin C and niacinamide used together/at the same time is effective. They have notably different ph levels and once that ph level is changed, the ingredient loses its effectiveness. So by blending them together or putting them in the same product you are changing the ph level of both of them or at least compromising one of them such that one or both becomes ineffective. |
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40, Asian, Fitpatrick III with mostly moderate hyperpigmentation and isolated severe. Currently on Obagi Nu-Derm. |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:04 am |
| its_kristy wrote: |
| The real issue is not whether niacinamide is pro-aging. The issue is whether or not vitamin C and niacinamide used together/at the same time is effective. They have notably different ph levels and once that ph level is changed, the ingredient loses its effectiveness. So by blending them together or putting them in the same product you are changing the ph level of both of them or at least compromising one of them such that one or both becomes ineffective. |
Agree, That's why I recommended layering with a short wait time.
There was a long discussion about Niacinamide being pro-aging but the consensus here is no, even though a study saying it is was posted, that's where that issue came from. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:07 am |
I care more for vitamin C. I know there is a lot of back-up that vitamin C works and I totally agree.
I've been using Vivier High Potency Serum 20% for years and I don't want this new sunscreen that I want to try, eltaMD Clear SPF 46 with pure 4% Niacinamide, that is third down from the list to diminish the quality of Vivier vitamin C. |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:08 am |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| Skincare wrote: |
| You are amazing! |
Not really, but thank you! It can be very confusing about what can't work together in one product and yet can work fine layered separately! |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:12 am |
| Skincare wrote: |
I care more for vitamin C. I know there is a lot of back-up that vitamin C works and I totally agree.
I've been using Vivier High Potency Serum 20% for years and I don't want this new sunscreen that I want to try, eltaMD Clear SPF 46 with pure 4% Niacinamide, that is third down from the list to diminish the quality of Vivier vitamin C. |
The Niacinamide in your sunscreen won't deactivate your C serum once it's absorbed! They just need different ph's in the product formulation to remain active! Seriously just wait a few minutes between application and you will be fine! |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:29 am |
| Never ever heard of the pro-aging thing but I would have to agree with everyone else re: Vitamin C being the way to go here. |
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Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:56 am |
| knathani wrote: |
| Never ever heard of the pro-aging thing but I would have to agree with everyone else re: Vitamin C being the way to go here. |
Studies have shown that C only actually works topically for about 60% of people, and they don't know why!
I know that some also have problems tolerating it, so there's no arguing here! |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:51 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
Crossposting Lacy's post from the C thread
| Lacy53 wrote: |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
Here's the latest serum I've been testing for almost a month and it's fabuloso, if I do say so myself;
18% L-AA
1% Vitamin E
.5% Ferulic Acid
2% Niacinamide
2% Licorice Root Extract
1% Retinyl Palmitate |
Any idea what the final pH of this new recipe is? I only ask, because I found this information when searching for niacinamide instructions:
| Quote: |
To avoid the hydrolysis of Niacinamide to nicotinic acid, we recommend the pH of the finished formulation be in the range of 5.0 to 7.0. The hydrolysis of Niacinamide to nicotinic acid can result in skin flushing, redness and burning. Please note that Niacinamide added to pure distilled water will have the desired pH of 6.0-7.0.
http://www.theherbarie.com/Niacinamide-USP---Vitamin-B3-pr-394.html |
I believe that the pH of an effective L-AA product should be 3.5 or below.
TIA |
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Wow, this thread seems like de ja vu to me...
For the record, I'll share what was lost in the DIY thread, once the drama took over.. 
Some formulation guidelines
• Niacinamide PC is water soluble and very easy to
formulate
• Easy dissolution up to 5%
• Tolerates a broad range of pH (3-7.5)
Have a look at "formulating with niacinamide":
http://www.dsm.com/en_US/downloads/dnpsa/Niacinamide_PC.pdf
The above DIY recipe that DM has copied here, has a pH of 3.5 in my finished product.
The only reason it's suggested to use 'niacinamide' in a more neutral pH, is to avoid the *flushing* that can sometimes happen to more sensitive skin types. It really has little to do with the efficacy of the product..
And BTW, I'm still using and loving it... |
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♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:03 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
Some formulation guidelines
• Niacinamide PC is water soluble and very easy to
formulate
• Easy dissolution up to 5%
• Tolerates a broad range of pH (3-7.5)
Have a look at "formulating with niacinamide":
http://www.dsm.com/en_US/downloads/dnpsa/Niacinamide_PC.pdf
The above DIY recipe that DM has copied here, has a pH of 3.5 in my finished product.
The only reason it's suggested to use 'niacinamide' in a more neutral pH, is to avoid the *flushing* that can sometimes happen to more sensitive skin types. It really has little to do with the efficacy of the product..
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I took you advice and went to an alternative source for formulating with niacinamide. From the Textbook of Aging Skin by Miranda Farage PhD (Principal Scientist, Proctor & Gamble), Kenneth Miller PhD (Associate Director, Proctor & Gamble) and Howard Maibach MD; published 2010.
They suggest that the key challenge to formulating with niacinamide is "avoiding hydrolysis to nicotinic acid". Nicotinic acid, even at low doses can induce intense skin reddening (flushing). While a little redness may be desired, the flushing response is variable among individuals in terms of dose, time of onset and duration of response. Flushing can have associated issues such as burning, stinging and itching particularly in cold or dry conditions. The authors suggest to avoid hydrolysis, formulating in the pH range of 5-7 is preferred.
I also looked at the Niacinamide PC product from DSM. They claim their niacinamide is "a new grade of niacinamide with minimal traces of nicotinic acid". They do say that their product tolerates a wide pH range, but I am unsure if that means for skincare products only. I am guessing your personal supplier is selling you niacinamide PC from DSM, not regular niacinamide?
Quite frankly, I would prefer to listen to the skincare scientists from Proctor and Gamble as well as Dr. Mailbach when it comes to making skincare products and would try to avoid the flushing, redness, stinging and itching. Those effects from the hydrolysis of niacinamide are not beneficial to the skin (unless you like an all-over rosy pink glow and transient pain). |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:17 am |
The thing about this is there was not a question by Skincare the OP about DIYing a serum containing these 2 ingredients, only about using a sunscreen with niacinamide over a C serum. I only posted the relevant portion of the post to help explain the ph issue and how it's fine to layer!
I along with others have already posted on the whole drama filled thread that we believe what almost all suppliers recommend on this issue and we are entitled to our choice of what we believe as are you Kassy, bringing up all this yet again wasn't my intention and honestly serves no purpose. Those of us who choose to believe the suppliers and the majors such as Lacy posted will not likely change our opinion, and I am sure Kassy and whoever believes as she does will do it their way. Why not just leave it at that? We need to agree to disagree. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:22 pm |
I know this is an old thread, but I can't find the answer to a particular question:
I make my c serum daily--just LAA, distilled water, and a few drops of glycerin.
I've been using the B5 serum recipe, applying it about 15 to 20 minutes AFTER the c-serum.
This is only for a.m. At night, I just put on my coconut oil, which seems to work best then.
I have a LC order ready to go with B3 on it and would like to combine the B3 with the B5.
The idea I'm getting is that it IS ok to put on both B3 and B5 about 15 minutes after the C-serum...am I correct in this assumption? Should I keep my B3 and B5 serum separate from my peptide serum (I'm phasing out most of the peptides, but I want to use up what I have in stock)?
I haven't bought NAG yet, I'm adding one ingredient at a time to make sure I don't have any reactions to anything (-:
Like I mentioned, I know this is an old thread, but I hope someone reads it...
Thanks. |
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Age 58. Facial exercise, DIY based in aloe vera and coconut oil, exercise and a sensible diet |
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Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:23 pm |
Also, would this B5 B3 serum work well after the C serum if I also added licorice root?
Thanks again. |
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Age 58. Facial exercise, DIY based in aloe vera and coconut oil, exercise and a sensible diet |
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